[Closed] OTT Climbing: Quickdraw Question

Just buy a set of 10 from decathlon.

for sport climbing it doesnt make much difference what you get but I personally would go for Wiregate krabs. Wild country do some nice ones. This is because if you take a fall the rope runs over the krab and causes it to vibrate and with alloy gated krabs the gate can 'flutter' open and close very quickly and if the rope happens to land with your weight on it in an open position, you could potentially break the krab.

Most off the shelf QD have a loose end and a fixed krab (using a rubber retainer). this makes it easier to clip if you have the loose end to the bolt and the fixed for the rope. only use one end for the rope and one end for the bolt - do not change these around as the bolt can cause burrs on the soft alloy that can damage the sheath of the rope.

HTH

This comes up time and again on UKC. Do a search on their Rocktalk or Gear forums.

Got some quickdraws ive never used if you're interested in buying them. Fancied climbing a while back but never got round to it, they are Wild Country Blaze I think, 5 of them?

Get as many as you're going to need plus a couple. If you run out halfway up a pitch, you'll be leaving the top one behind.

If you're not used to carrying a rack, get the lightest you can afford. Practice using them at a climbing wall before using them outside.

Rock and Run used to do some good deals on multiple quick-draw sets with biners, worth a look. Second what Highcklimber says about wire gates at the rope end.

^ wat Cougar says, and buy much cheapness from outside
http://www.outside.co.uk/shop/climbing/karabiners/karabiners-quickdraws-packs

And the old 'fluttering gate' is over hyped IMO, user error is far more common an issue with any climbing kit than some issue of failure.

Don't quite get this:

Practice using them at a climbing wall before using them outside.

If you mess up 5 metres above the deck, you're 5 metres above the deck whether you're inside or outside. Why not just practice on some easy stuff? Cheaper, too.

And the old 'fluttering gate' is over hyped IMO

Yeah, I remember that being headline news a while back. TBH, whilst it's a real issue, in the big long list of "things that might kill you when climbing," it's probably just above "attacked by passing geese."

^ what matt says, i've had big falls on non wire gates loads of times and never had a problem.

Only times (twice) i've seen any probs with quickdraws is where it unclipped in a fall due to the gate being on the wrong side - i mean eg where the route moves up and slightly left and you clip the draw with the (lower) gate being on the left as well. If you do this it can unclip if you fall, so usually best to have the gate oppisite to the lateral direction the climb goes. If that makes sense 😀 And as matt says above thats user error not design.

whilst it's a real issue, in the big long list of "things that might kill you when climbing," it's probably just above "attacked by passing geese."

Hmm.. yes. seems odd to quibble over such minor possibilities, when the person holding your life in their hands is using a non-failsafe device that is very easy to mis-use.

£6.99 a pop at decathlon so way cheaper than Outside. Seriously, all decent brands will hold falls and the wire gates are no better to clip so why pay more?

when the person holding your life in their hands is using a non-failsafe device that is very easy to mis-use.

Not a climber Mol?? 😆

Hmm.. yes. seems odd to quibble over such minor possibilities, when the person holding your life in their hands is using a non-failsafe device that is very easy to mis-use.

What, like their attention span.... 🙂

Done a bit of climbing in my time, and no, I've never seen anyone being dropped by their belay.

However it doesn't make any sense. There are failsafe devices around, people don't use them because they apparently don't think it's important.

What, like their attention span....

Zackly.

thats guys very useful been having a big read on UKC, going for some wiregates, i'll see whats in stock locally.

Whilst browsing I noticed some Via Ferrata gear, I understand the device is only rated for 1 fall.. does that mean you need to take some spares such as a second set and a rope / clips incase you need to change it?

thanks*

AFAIK some via ferrata kit can be re-set. These ones have the rope passing through a metal 'braking' device, eg Petzl Zyper. (not 100% certain about this though)

If it has any part of it designed to reduce the fall arresting force by ripping stitching, then these aren't re-settable, so i guess you just take extra care on the rest of the route or retreat off somehow 😆

Needlesports has a bit of info on their site.

http://www.needlesports.com/catalogue/content.aspx?con_id=d7376987-c60a-437e-a15a-9c9e00a6a466

http://www.needlesports.com/Catalogue/Rock-Climbing-Equipment/Via-Ferrata

There are failsafe devices around, people don't use them because they apparently don't think it's important.

Sorry, that's not true.

People don't use them because a) they're six times the price of a regular device, b) they can be difficult to control accurately, and c) it's incredibly easy to override the failsafe if you panic (in a similar manner to how many people instinctively press the brake pedal harder when their car wheels lock and skid).

Counter-intuitively, in the wrong hands the 'failsafe' devices are more dangerous than conventional belay devices. They're getting increasingly popular with novices (I was at North West Face at the weekend and one of their staff had a group of kids using Gri-gris) and it gives me the fear.

Personally, I like them and use them. But there's no way I'd let anyone in my care near one until they could belay with their eyes closed (and know not to).

For single pitch bolted sports climbing you'll also need a med length sling and a couple of screwgates to secure yourself at the top chain when threading the rope for lowering off.

Thanks guys great info, helpful when paired with my other readings! yep a sling sounds like a great idea as the scariest bit sounds like the threading! thanks for the info re safety devices as well

Whilst browsing I noticed some Via Ferrata gear, I understand the device is only rated for 1 fall.. does that mean you need to take some spares such as a second set and a rope / clips incase you need to change it?

no, if you fall far enough to engage the shock absorber, you retire it regardless of the type.

top tip - don't fall!

Cougar I wasn't talking about Grigris.

Yes they are not 100% failsafe, of course, but even 50% failsafe is better than 0%.

Your argument is like saying that helmets are bad because they make you take more risks.

I'd far rather a novice belay me on a grigri than simply explaining them how a traditional device works and hoping they do it right. No other dangerous sport is this cavalier about safety. Look at all the hoops you have to go through to scuba dive for instance.

I'd far rather a novice belay me on a grigri than simply explaining them how a traditional device works and hoping they do it right

most indoor accidents are caused by bad belaying and semi auto belay devices like the GriGri account for more of these than traditional belay devices due to people relying on them too much and not explaining how they work properly. I have witnessed poor belaying with one of them on more than a handfull of instances!

Thanks guys great info, helpful when paired with my other readings! yep a sling sounds like a great idea as the scariest bit sounds like the threading!

Threading is relatively simple, but how you do it can depend on the type of lower off.

Heres what i do:

1) clip into lower off with cows tail or a couple of extenders
2)if someone else is going to lead the route - just clip 2 draws into the lower off, snap gates are fine, just oppose the gates, or use screwgates if you feel the need, then just lower off these. If no one else is doing the route then...
3)DONT UNTIE YET!
3a) If you know you definately you have at least a couple metres of spare rope and the lower off is large enough to get a bight of rope through (eg a ring on a chain, or large staples (not bolt hangers!), ), then pass a bight through the lower off, tie a fig 8 in it and clip into a screw gate on your harness belay loop. Then untie your original fig 8 knot and pull the free end through. The rope should now go up from the bottom, through lower off and to your fig 8 on a bight clipped to harness. You'll have quite a long tail but dont worry, then just lower off.

3b) if you havent got much spare rope, or cant pass a bight through the lower off,eg if its small staples, or a maillon then..
Pull up a bit of rope and tie an overhand on a bight and clip this anywhere on your harness, gear loop is ok, this stage is to prevent you losing the rope if you drop it at the next stage!
Make sure you are happy with cows tail, etc. Untie fig 8 you tied at the bottom, then pass the end through the the lower off and retie into harness with fig 8 as normal. If you drop the rope at this point the bit you clipped in to your harness before stops you losing the rope. Once tied in with the fig 8, untie the overhand you clipped to the harness and lower off.

other things:
Always check lower off is ok. If its bolt hangers connected by a chain then i always check the bolts are tight (if you climb a lot you'll find a fair few that have loose bolt heads. Just tighten them up by hand if neccesary).
Also check any maillons are done up, most are glued shut when the lower off is originally placed.

never thread directly through bolt hangers (ie not staples), it'll trash your rope as the are too sharp.

If the lower off is 2 anchors connected by a chain, make sure you thread the chain correctly, usually theres a ring in the middle of it. NEVER JUST PASS THE ROPE BEHIND THE CHAIN - if one bolt fails and you do this the rope will pull out of the lower off. Always take a few seconds to assess the lower off (and the bit you are threading the rope through) and ask 'what will happen if either of the bolts fail'

Dead easy once you've done it a few times! Apologies if you already knew all of this 😳

useful info and pics here...
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=265
http://www.thebmc.co.uk/Feature.aspx?id=2008
http://www.thebmc.co.uk/Feature.aspx?id=2766

Do not use via ferrata stuff for sport climbing. It is not designed to take the dynamic forces created by a biggish fall.

Where abouts in France are you, out of interest.

Cougar I wasn't talking about Grigris.

Sorry; what were you talking about then?

Your argument is like saying that helmets are bad because they make you take more risks.

If you actually believe that then you've misunderstood me.

I'd far rather a novice belay me on a grigri than simply explaining them how a traditional device works and hoping they do it right.

Well, I wouldn't do either of those things, I'd have a novice belaying under supervision, possibly with a third roped in if they're really unsure, until they proved competent. Sure as hell wouldn't be giving someone a Grigri and going "off you go mate, you'll be right."

Compensating with gear for a lack of ability is a fast-track to being a statistic.

To reiterate what meee says about not threading bolt hangers, don't ever, ever, bloody anything, ever, be tempted by threading tape or anything else thru. The friction caused by you lowering off a bolt hanger, for example, will cut thru tape or rope like butter. I've seen people do it once or twice when they've got stranded half way up, presumably not wanting to abandon a biner or quickdraw, they've threaded tape or a sling thru the bolt hanger and then threaded the rope thru the tape or sling to lower off. After retrieving a sling once for some blokes (quite a thick sling by modern standards) it was almost completely cut thru after just a 25m lower off.

Compensating with gear for a lack of ability is a fast-track to being a statistic.

I think you mis-understand me.

Almost any dangerous activity has fail-safe characteristics designed into the equippment, as I am sure you know. This is because however competent people are, there are always problems. If for instance I pass out whilst using a hedge trimmer, I let go of it and it stops, rather than keeping going and sawing through my leg.

If ANYTHING happens to my belay, he loses consciousness, gets hit on the head by a rock, needs to scratch his arse, starts daydreaming after standing there for 40 mins whilst I fanny about, he's adjusting his hand position at the wrong time - and I fall, I'm toast. This is bonkers.

Sorry for the bigness, but this is what I have:

[img] [/img]

It's a bit trickier to pay out, to be fair, but I reckon the trade-off is worth it. Unfortunately most climbers don't agree...

And clearly, I'm not advocating substituting anything for ability.

other things:

a few
make sure the belayer knows you plan on lowering off - this is the norm in european sports climbing but a belayer may assume you intend to rap the route and stop belaying especially if they are american or more trad than sport

always always always tie in a knot in the end of the rope at the belayers end - it is very easy to misjudge pitch length and a 60m rope on a 35m route will prove fatal

grigris are far from fool proof and need more skill to use safely than other belay devices - which also require skill

Learn how not to reverse clip.
Oh you might want to pick up one or two longer quickdraws to reduce drag in cases where the routes aren't straight up and down or there are some roofs/overhangs.

thanks guys and for the links and in depth details ect- ian via f was a different convo just interested in doing it also oh and im in Morzine 🙂

ant- when you say tie a knot in the belayers side of the rope would you do a rough measure of rope length in your hands to make sure it was long enough for the climb but short enough to be effective when tying the not if the belayer failed to act?

Tie your belayer on. Job done.

SRC's - I have 12 of them at work. With the *slightest* of wear and a wet rope (Edelrid 10.5's) they slip like an ATC...
GriGri - the old 'panic-pull-release' issue still is there.
Look at Edelrid Eddy - I have one and it seems to address the issues of the above two.
We increasingly use ATC guides / Wild Country VC Pro type device.
We also use italian hitches on crate climb, high ropes, tree climbs and rock climbs.
For peer belaying with newbies, good instruction and vigilance is the key. We must have 2500+ first timers per year belay and as yet I have had two incidents (no injury) in 15 years...

always always always tie in a knot in the end of the rope at the belayers end - it is very easy to misjudge pitch length and a 60m rope on a 35m route will prove fatal

God yeah forgot that one, and i have first hand experience of it happening. Was being lowered on route just under 40m high with only a 60m rope. There was an intermediate lower off i was aiming for, and literally as i grabbed the chain of this lower off the end of the rope went through the grigri 😯 So yeah, always always tie a knot in the end!

Also useful to carry a couple of maillons with you on routes, or old screwgates, in case you have cant reach the belay and have to lower off a bolt on the route, or for if the ones on the lower off look exceptionally worn.

I think you mis-understand me.

Ah, seems I may do. Sorry, it's just an all too common occurrence.

However, re: the SRC, I've never used one but I wasn't aware that it was a 'failsafe' device; I was under the impression that its raison d'etre was to reduce shock in the system during a fall, and require less strength to lock off. Is that not the case?

GriGri - the old 'panic-pull-release' issue still is there.

Yup. The other gotcha is grabbing the body of the device, which has much the same effect.

For peer belaying with newbies, good instruction and vigilance is the key.

This.

Sorry, I missed hitting [Send] on a reply back there ^^

If you mess up 5 metres above the deck, you're 5 metres above the deck whether you're inside or outside. Why not just practice on some easy stuff? Cheaper, too.

a) You're not spending a valuable day out of your holiday learning to use the equipment.

b) It's a controlled environment. If you want to practice, you can climb six feet, lock off, and sit there clipping all day until you're good at it. If you do develop acute bottle failure, someone else can go and retrieve your stranded gear. If you deck, help will be immediate (and in English).

Tie your belayer on. Job done.

what he said. you can't go wrong that way and this has the added bonus of having your partner already tied in!

Check, Check and check again. a lot of sport climbing accidents occur when rethreading the belay owing to confusion between climber and belayer. make sure you and your partner understand each other by keeping communication simple like:
'Take in', 'Slack', 'On belay', 'Off belay', 'Safe' etc

I was under the impression that its raison d'etre was to reduce shock in the system during a fall, and require less strength to lock off. Is that not the case?

Quite the opposite. they can increase the loading on the system due to their lack of dynamism (same applies to other autolocking devices)

ant- when you say tie a knot in the belayers side of the rope would you do a rough measure of rope length in your hands to make sure it was long enough for the climb but short enough to be effective when tying the not if the belayer failed to act?

just tie it a couple of feet from the end. Its only to stop the end going through the gri gri if the height of the route is more than half your rope length. (some guides have the route length printed in them, but not all, and beware, some of the rockfax guides (popular with us lot as they are in english) have incorrect route lenghts in them.

Also note that in europe, 60m ropes are often assumed as standard, and in some areas 70, or 80m ropes are now being used a lot. Usually though, for routes requiring a 70 or 80m rope, there will be an intermediate lower off so you can still do the route on a 60m rope, you just have to lower off twice. But definately get a 60m rope at least. If you dont have a rope yet, and are keen on sport climbing, i'd probably get a 70m anyway as new routes are often upto 35m now (Kalymnos especially)

So.. knot in end
check route length
60m rope minimum these days
ideally get a 70, especially if you ever want to go to kalymnos. And you will want to go to Kalymnos!!!!

The best advice i can give you you are starting out climbing is to find someone to climb with how has a reasonable amount of experience, and learn from them.

Everyone i've climbed with is very happy to share there experiance, and they'll keep an eye on you to prevent you doing something stupid.

sound advice I think mate, indoor always sounds best to practise but there isnt one close - the rock im thinking of doing is basically an indoor wall but outside and natural in the middle of town (as far as I've heard).

oh and its not a holiday - lucky me has moved here 🙂

Quite the opposite. they can increase the loading on the system due to their lack of dynamism

Grigri yes, SRC no. It's designed to slip a bit.

I know that none of the above solutions are perfect but they are better imo than something that is 100% useless if a tiny easy mistake is made. That is what I am getting at.

However people don't take kindly to you asking if they'll use your belay device instead of theirs. They assure you that you'll be fine then proceed to belay you badly 🙁

get a bail 'biner or quick link to back off from a hanger

http://www.decathlon.co.uk/EN/quick-link-7mm-17410658/

or learn the magic sling technique to do it leaving nothing at all behind, if you are within 1/3 rope length of the ground.

stay safe, and have fun.

Oh and I suggest a helmet when outdoors. It's personal choice (before TJ comes to the thread) but 'draws get dropped, rocks get dislodged etc...and will hurt if you get struck.

people don't take kindly to you asking if they'll use your belay device instead of theirs.

Understandable; I'd rather belay with kit that a) I'm familiar with and b) I know the history of.

Questioning your belayer's choice of gear implies that you don't trust them; if you don't trust them, don't climb with them.

I don't trust anyone to be alert and correct 100% of the time, and that includes me. And then there are also factors outside of our control.

We-ell, yes, that's sensible. But imposing your personal choice of equipment on someone isn't going to change that any.

I never actually tried that beyond discussing it with a couple of close mates, because I knew what reception I'd get.

TBH,

All things being equal, if your belay partner is incapacitated, you're pretty screwed regardless of kit. I'm not sure that the solution you're suggesting brings much to the table other than a false sense of security. If you gave, say, a Reverso to someone who'd never seen one before, you'd be unlikely to be any better off.

I am somewhat surprised that there are not more reports of people being dropped for one reason or another. I'd google some if it wasn't so late.

Although if there was say a rockfall, and my partner was clobbered and I was knocked off, I'd rather be dangling helplessly than splatted on the floor.

The most important part of the belaying system is the belayer, and all of the 'failsafe' methods are basically there for added convenience, not safety. The manufacturers still recommend belaying in the 'usual' way and whatnot.

If I came across a potential climbing partner who didn't have the confidence in their own ability to use a non auto-locking belay device (or someone to supervise them) then I just wouldn't waste my time climbing with them.

and all of the 'failsafe' methods are basically there for added convenience, not safety

What's that mean?

I am not advocating replacing the traditional techniques. I'm saying that given experienced belayers, a DEGREE of automatic safety (ie in some types of fall) in addition to that provided by an attentive belayer provides another level of security just in case.

I've done most of my belaying with an ATC, and I've stopped falls too, but the system is NOT fail-safe. This is not ideal, it's a simple as that.

What we need, in an ideal world, is some sort of dead man's handle. I'm not sure that such a thing actually exists in a form that doesn't bring further risks or inconveniences.

Yep. Inconvenience isn't an issue for me though, within reason. After all the rope itself is a pretty drastic inconvenience isn't it? 🙂

EDIT: thinking about it.. how about an electronically controlled pulley clipped to say your leg that goes around the slack rope; It's far enough away so you can belay as normal - the climber wears a little sensor that detects when he's fallen and sends a signal to the pulley to lock up, which pulls the rope and locks the belay device......?

When you can find something that works with double ropes and pays out quickly while also being able to hold a fall then you might be onto a winner... working with frozen ropes would also be a winner too please... :o)

Until then it'll be bog standard belay devices I'm afraid.

Also, as pointed out above, while not being such an issue with sport climbing, in trad climbing the amount of 'slip' within the whole system means that the shock loading on the gear is a lot lower than when using any of the auto-locking devices.

I'm liking the idea of a back-up device that mimics the belayer's hand only in the event of it not being available but stays out of the way otherwise. The advantage of an electronic system too would be that if your belayer was knocked out by a rockfall, say, you could remotely lower yourself down.

And just how many sports crags actually suffer from rockfalls?

I'm not sure you're going to want to use anything like that when you are half-way up a bolted alpine route, or anywhere ever on a trad route where you might actually experience them...

And just how many sports crags actually suffer from rockfalls?

Trad climbers also use belay devices... and the system would be automatic, you would not have to do anything, and it'd be easily disable-able whenever you wanted.

I'm not sure you're going to want to use anything like that when you are half-way up a bolted alpine route,

I'd wager that alpine routes and electronic devices wouldn't be a great mix anyway.

No?

Back to quick draws:

Get a variety of legths from the shortest to half a metre. Keeping the rope straight cuts friction and means you'll still be able to move up when you've run out most of the rope. Especially important in Spain where the logic of bolt placement defies me.

No?

's hypothetical anyway, but whatever solution it was would have to work [i]reliably [/i]in extreme temperatures. Last thing you've want is a servo or something to freeze solid. I'm guessing of course, but I'd imagine that such a thing might be prohibitively expensive.

And to Molgrips:

Getting back down if your belayer dies, is knocked out, or finally gets sick of your insults and naffs off is no problem; you just tie off the rope on a bolt (or gear if you're unbolted) and ab' back down.

It's an interesting challenge, but there's no point working on it. It'd never sell, as most climbers seem to think that there's no issue...

50% failsafe

Que? 😯

Failsafe in 50% of situations I meant.

If you want a system where you have to be attentive to let the rope run freely, a bog standard belay plate with a prussik loop in your hand on the trailing edge works quite well and serves as a good, cheap and pretty effective failsafe. My climbing apprenticeship was long before Gri Gris and the like and this seemed to work well. Hardly ever used it for belaying tho', just for ab'ing. Never ever used a Gri Gri and - perhaps irrationally - don't like the look of them.

I like Grigris, makes paying out very very easy. And I suspect this is why they get used for newbies.

Prussic loop - fiddly. Maybe one of those petzl thingies that you can use for abbing.. but you need to keep one hand on.. perhaps a self-belay device attached on the climber side of your ATC would work nicely in the style of the prussic loop... hmm...

most climbers seem to think that there's no issue...

That's a little disingenuous. I don't believe that most climbers think there's "no" issue, so much as thinking that it's a fairly small issue in the grand scheme of things. We're back to acceptable risk again. Eg, it'd be safer but I wouldn't wear a full-face helmet and body armour for a cycle down the canal towpath.

I take your point, and anything that can improve safety without badly compromising everything else is of course a good idea. I'm just not convinced that it's a particularly common issue.

Prussic loop - fiddly.

I mentioned this a while back as a suggestion. Not sure how well it'd work though because yes, it's fiddly, and faced with a free-running rope I wonder if the cord would melt before it grabbed?

For me it was all about travelling light. I preferred using a loop of 6mm/7mm cord as my failsafe for ab'ing than have to carry another device with me. Much more difficult to pay out, but then my reasoning is that the easier it pays out the harder it is to stop 😆

I don't climb much now, but I don't remember thinking stich plates (however you spell it) were a particular pain to use, but then I served my apprenticeship with my Dad who had vast amounts of knowledge, experience and skill when it came to climbing. [i]Some [/i]of it rubbed off on me

I for one don't and never will want anything more complicated than an ATC.
Even simple things like 'biners (some times not even screw gates) stop working properly in alpine and winter environments.

The best failsafe mechanism: don't fall off.

As far as abseiling goes, a prussic is very reliable, although I often don't bother with that unless there is noticeable rock/ice fall. Just getting the hell out of there fast is usually a big safety factor.

I wonder if the cord would melt before it grabbed?

Pretty much as soon as you let go of the prussik with your main belaying hand, the system locks up. Maybe it doesn't work as well with the newer belay plates but with a stich plate it was very effective. Of course you need to make sure you put enough loops in the prussik and it does take a bit of skill, so not for newbies. Cheap, light and effective tho'

it really makes sod all difference what people use as long as:

-Its a recognised device
-The belayer knows how to use it [b]correctly[/b] and has [b]experience with it[/b]
-The climber is happy being belayed by that belayer on it.

Personally i always use a grigri for sport climbing or at the wall as i find it a bit more 'relaxing' to use for a full day of climbing, and its much better than a standard plate type device if the climber is working a route and having lots of rests.
For trad i'll use an ATC XP as i tend to climb on skinny doubles.

Theres always going to be climbers arguing the pro's and cons of each device, but as long as both partners are happy with the set up theres no point worrying / arguing about it.

Same goes for abbing, ive abbed on grigris and ATC's, as long as you have tried the device in a controlled situation and know how it feeds through on the ab theres no problem. I nearly always back up with a prussic though as it means you can take you hands off to sort out rope tangles, and it makes things feel less intimidating on free hanging abs (well to me it does)

Typical STW, someone asks about one thing and everyone else goes off on a points scoring tangent about something else!

All thats missing is a few links to wikipedia and some photos of someone on a chossy trad route somewhere.

^^

Yeah i expect the OP has probably long gone from this thread, probably out doing something much more constructive like riding or actually climbing

Typical STW, someone asks about one thing and everyone else goes off on a points scoring tangent about something else!

Typical STW, someone asks about one thing, an interesting discussion develops, and then someone comes along and accuses everyone else of 'point scoring'. (-:

(Incidentally, "ianv" on a climbing thread? 😯

[i]*Does the "we're not worthy" scene from Wayne's World*[/i])