[Closed] OT - Octavia 1.6fsi drinking oil!!!

Have you checked under your car when it's parked to see if there are oil stains? If there are not, and it's a petrol engine - and it's running rough, it sounds like oil is getting into the combustion.

1. Gasket issue
2. Cylinder issue - did you buy it new or second hand. If second hand, botched engine replacement/refurbishment?

lift the oil filler cap is the oil clean or do you see "mayo"

failing that is there oil on the floor when the car is parked up over night?

if its no to both the oil maybe getting into the cylinder heads

Bought second hand from dealer - was fine at first, only recently had the trouble....
Will looking at the plugs give an indication at all??

DrP

Will looking at the plugs give an indication at all??

DrP

yes they'll be oily

any smoke out of the exhaust either when running or on start up what do you mean by a tank of oil ? plug tips should be a light coffee colouor and look dry

Tank/sump - it's using all it's oil up - from 'full' on the dipstick to nada!

Oddly - no smoke/coughing from the exhaust...

Thanks for the help so far - will see how the plugs look tonight...

DrP

When did you buy the car, what plate is it and how many miles?

Also post it here: http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/forum.asp?h=0&f=23&mid=70159

Full on the dipstick window to nothing on the dipstick window will only be about a litre nothing on the dipstick at all will be 4-5 litres which is a hell of alot for 700 miles.

check sump plug is not loose

Check oil filter, if the 1.6 FSI is anything like my 1.4FSI then it will be a paper refill type within a plastic housing near the top left of the engine so shold be pretty easy to see if it is damaged. There is either 1 or 2 o-rings within the plastic housing on my car.

Pidge,

If you promise to go riding with me I'll take a look at your Skoda!

I've just finished rebuilding the suspension on my DC2.

DAVE

Oh yeah - I never replied!!!
You around at the weekend?? Sunday eve?? Might be able to get out for a night blast locally.....

DrP

Back to the dealer pronto!

I bought it nearly 3 years ago! Think they'll be less than interested now!

DrP

DrP not stalking you but were you parked near Stanmer Tea rooms last Saturday afternoon?

Were you the one looking through the nearside rear window really going for it??

(No, I wasn't!)

DrP

fair enough. just remember someone loading a commencal onto a smallish hatchback and wondered if it was you.

The fact that it's running rough alongside loosing mega amounts of oil, could well indicate it's near dead. If the damage is already done then it's already done. But it would be worth getting it seen to ASAP, hoping that it's something that can still be saved.

Sell it quickly! Ebay?

ah, octavia's not the smallish Skoda. ignore me...

I have an Audi A2 with the 1.6FSI engine (presume its the same lump from approx 2003-2005?).
Coil packs are known to fail on these cars and cause very rough idling and the engine light to come on. The coils are a bit tricky to remove (friction fit so you sort of have to wiggle them off the spark plug). If a coil has failed then the corresponding spark plug will be oily.
Coils are £25 a go, if yours are original then just replace all four as the newer ones are more reliable than the pre 2006 ones.

Not sure why the car is burning lots of oil, my FSI uses maybe a litre or so in 10,000 miles (ie between changes). Could be a serious problem?
Other problems with FSI's are Nox sensors, part for this is c£160 but easy to fit.

Ideally you need to find someone with VAGCOM scan software and get the fault codes read. If you are anywhere near Leeds I can do this for you FOC.

If it's worn piston rings it could affect compression and hence idling, and cause oil to be burned.

However you would expect to see smoke if it were that bad. Or more likely smell it. I had a car that used a similar amount of oil (or perhaps even less) and it stank of burning oil. I got rid of it because I was embarassed as much as anything else. In traffic jams people in convertibles would be coughing and gagging at the fumes.

If a coil has failed then the corresponding spark plug will be oily

How come? You mean oily, or just black and sooty?

Yes Doctor, very unreliable of you!

I am around this weekend but in Winchester and haven't really got time to come over to Brighton unfortunately.

Are you about Wednesday or Friday next week?

DAVE

No they look oily (like a west yorkshire cafe spatula) as there is no combustion in the affected cylinder if the coilpack goes. Each cylinder has its own coil. The FSI runs at very high compression ratios compared with "normal" engines.
They are great engines, but a little high tech for many. My A2 gives 50mpg and goes like stink for a "girls car".

Ok so there's no combustion - why does that make it oily?

(not challenging, just curious)

the coil's a bit of a red herring.

if the coils are knackered there will be combustion problems but they won't cause oil to get into the cylinders in the first place.

The manual for my 1.4tsi says that it can eat up to 1L of oil per 1000km/600miles. Apparently that's normal!

edit: although it doesn't actually use anywhere near that much.

I was just about to post the same thing up to a 1l every 1000k on some of the audi engine's I assume this would go through the VAG group.

Yes, I am familiar with the VAG group's engines liking for oil. I have a 1.8Tsi and travel with a bottle of the relevant oil in the boot. Goes through about 500ml every 4 months ( so every 4k miles ). Doing slightly better than was suggested it would when I bought it new.

I wonder why.

they burn less if you use the recommended oil
but there still thirsty

as for running rough could be anything from a leaky hose ,coil pack etc
if no engine warning light on ...
its mechanical with the exception of coil pack and spark plugs
disconnect the airflow meter an see if its any better
also check hoses for splits of leaks

I'd start with basics and have a compression check done. You will then know if the rings/valves (poss head gasket) are buggered and can progress to jobs that will cost you money if that is all ok.
k.i.s.s. never assume..

DrP: you said you are using a "tank" of oil every 700miles. How much is this? Do you mean a litre?

Molgrips: reason that the sparkplugs look greasy if there is no combustion is because they get covered in petrol, but it never burns/ignites. So I (assume) that it sort of evaporates off due to the engine temp, but leave behind any of the heavier fractions of oil.

Compression testers are available in Halfords btw - easier on a petrol afaik because I think you just remove the plugs.

CHB - I suppose a greasy sheen.. I thought you were talking about thick black gunk as if oil was in the chamber.

Greasy sheen indeed, just like the aforementioned cafe spatula. 😆

Well, took the coil packs off but my specific socket set isn't specific enough....... wouldn't reach the plugs!
Oh well - will see what the locals can provide!

DrP

You need a plug socket - available from Halfords.

My Golf TDI did this due to a cracked sump.

My Mk 2 GTI did this due to valve stem seals. But it was pretty obvious as I practically disapeared when standing for long in traffic...

Ok, quick update as there's been useful info posted so far.
Took it to the garage (ages ago!) and they ran full diagnostics - nil wrong there. They did do a compression test which was LOW in 2 cylinders, but normal on a retest.
I think, as does the mechanic, that it's a know problem of vag fsi engines of the inlet valves getting coked up :-/

At the garage we gave it a treatment with wynns injector cleaner spray, and I've got myself another twin pack to do at home.

I don't think this explains the oil guzzling, but I'm sure it's the cause of the rough drive.
Ideally I'd like to use an endoscope to look into the inlets, as removing the head will be timely = pricey!!

So, anyone down south fancy cracking my head off.....??!!

DrP

If the valves are coking up they won't be seating properly. Also, this can easily damage the valve seats as the deposits between the valves and the seats hammer into the tolerances a bit. I had a brand new pair of aircooled VW heads set up with the valves too tight and this happened to them.... It also made it smoke, which DOES explain oil usage. Remember the valve guides are lubed by oil, and a poorly seated valve will therefore let oil through.
To fix it I had to have the heads off (engine out job in a Camper) and regrind the valve seats on my new heads. I can tell you that regrinding valves by hand gives some amazing blisters.

Personally, I doubt very much of some wonder additive will make the slightest difference. Remember that thousands of explosions in the cylinder aren't shifting it....

My guess is that you'll be taking the head off to fix it properly in the end, if it is the valves coking up. Personally I'd worry that it'll damage the head too much to repair of not fixed in time.
What would I do? I'd get shot of the car, to be honest.

Cheers Pete,
Out of "diagnostic interest" I'll see what it's like after a valve decoke (either DIY if I can find a decent guide, or garage). It's a shame as all other aspects of the car are fine...
Will hunt online for a sensible guide to removing the head.....

DrP

Put thicker oil in it or check the grade in there isn't too thin.

To use that much it is probably burning it, as you've not said there is a lake of oil on your path or "mayo" in the coolant system

Not a mechanic but guess the only way that happens is through the pistons rings.

Then sell it.

To be fair, I put oil in a car years ago that was too thin. It p155ed through it. I put thicker oil in and it was fine for years.

Mail me with where you are?

Pete, what you say about cylinder explosions moving crud is correct for most engines. However the fsi engines have "dry" intake meaning that fuel is added post compression, rather than on the induction cycle of the cylinder.
This means the intake valves never get washed with fuel. So add cheap 95 ron fuel that these are not designed for, and lots of short trips and you get problems.
Mitsubishi GDI engines have a similar problem....they need good fuel and long trips regularly to keep em sweet.

Mail sent, Boobs....
I'm hunting the web high and low for Info on getting to the valves, but am struggling!
Anyone with a PDF on engine servicing at all?
Will also post on briskoda.

DrP

This means the intake valves never get washed with fuel

Right, OK. Understood. In that case, if it's the intake valves coking up, then additive is definately a waste of time then!

I have a 4.2 V8 Audi engine which is a known drinker of oil - Audi themselves say 1L per 1000km is within tolerance. It says this in the handbook. Is there anything in there for your engine? Have you called Audi?

GB

Will hunt online for a sensible guide to removing the head.....

I've had the head off an 8 valve VW, which was a piece of piss, just a few bolts. On 16v heads, IIRC, the cams sit over the head bolts, so it's cams out first, and it's trickier lining the camshaft pulleys up to refit the cambelt. Obviously the intake and exhaust manifolds have to come off/be loose enough to remove the head. Having not seen your engine I obviously can't be any more specific, but it's usually just nuts and bolts..... (He says, trying to sound positive...!)

When you've got the head off, lay it down with the valves pointing up and test each cylinder's valves by pouring a fine oil (I used WD40) into the upturned closed valves. Any that leak can be spotted as the oil leaks through into the inlet..... Then you need to get the valve out. Not sure how this works on a modern engine, but that was a case of compressing the valve spring and removing the collets on my VW heads. Once the valve is out, you should be able to see coking/damage on the valves and their respecive seats. You need some grinding paste and a LOT of time. I dunno how it's done these days but I have a thing with a rubber sucker on each end that attaches to the valve and you spin it with your hands, (valve with paste on and back in the head) until the valve seals properly. I ended up attaching it to a cordless drill though due to blisters....

Not a job that's going to be quick. I doubt an ameture machanic would do it in a day. You'll need new head bolts as they stretch when torqued down, a new head gasket a good torque wrench, and a new cambelt becasue you might as well do it whilst it's off! You also need to know the torque seetings and sequence for retightening

Like I said, I've had heads off 2 vehicles (Both VWs as it happens) and to be honest it's not a job I want to do again.

REALLY BAD valve on the left, good one on the right
[img] [/img]

Pete - the additive comes in 2 parts:
[*]One gets put in the fuel (debatable if this will benefit the FSI engine)[/*]
[*]The other gets sprayed into the 'carb' (its like a foam) and [b]does[/b] run over the valves.[/*]

It 'should' work, but I suppose depends on how chuffed up they are!

Interestingly, there was an engine fault light on last night - I plugged the ODB2 tool in, and cylinder 3 is not working. I drove it in today, and although it was gutless, I was getting cracking fuel economy! Took a time to get there, but cruised at 70 no probs - why can't we switch off cylinders when we're up to speed?!

DrP

Funny you should say that DrP, some big V8 trucks in the US have this feature, they turn off one bank of cylinders when cruising.

Some of them also turn into v4s when not using power molgrips

Jeep do one that does.

Seriously - stop driving it. If its burning/losing all its oil in 700 miles then something pretty major is amiss. If its down on one cylinder on its own it wouldn't be a major concern (coil pack related probably). But the fact its using oil like it is and is only running on three would suggest to me its ****ed.

If it's using all its oil (is it, or is it just a litre/off the dipstick) in 700 miles (approx 4 litres) its pretty terminal. Are you not getting any blue smoke? It has to be escaping somewhere, either through being burnt or via a leak in the system somewhere (cracked sump, cracked filter or something). Under load, are you getting any blue smoke at all? Any when you start it from cold in the morning?

It's not using all it's oil, just from top -> bottom of dipstick. Takes about 1l to top up.
There's NO smoke from anywhere. I wonder if the oil is a red herring?
I'm in cahoots with the garage to get it reviewed again!

DrP

It's not using all it's oil, just from top -> bottom of dipstick. Takes about 1l to top up.

If you didn't top it up, it WOULD use it all though, wouldn't it? 🙂

There's NO smoke from anywhere.

Doesn't mean it's not burning oil. Plenty of cars and motorbikes burn oil at a steady rate with no visible smoke at all. BMW and Yamaha bikes spring to mind, BMW GSs are reknown for it. Virtually every diesel I've ever driven (work and private) has had an oil addiction too.

I wonder if the oil is a red herring?

Has it always used oil, or has the poor running and oil usage come on together, or within a couple of months?
I'm inclined to think they are one and the same problem, but I'd seriously love to be wrong about this.

If that was my car it's be PXd pretty sharpish. (I couldn't privately sell a car I thought had such a fault)

Silly question but your sure the bottom of the dipstick hasn't broken off and your then over filling the oil, making the engine run rough as it try's to get rid of the exces oil

Pete, come to think of it I had complained (internally!) that the car regularly needed topping up of oil since we got it, and it ran fine at that time! In fact, I even had the oil gasgets looked at shortly after purchase (on warranty).

The cylinder 3 fault, I expect from the fault code, is a coil pack.....

I take on board what you say about PXing the car, and if the garage has a look at it on Monday and 'writes it off' then so be it, but..... It' whether this turns out to be a fatal case of [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occa m's_razor]Occam's razor[/url] or a more benign case of Hickum's dictum!!!!!

DrP

Slightly OT, but I used to own a Rover 220 GSi that could leave the dipstick dry after one spirited drive up the road and back!

Didn't smell of oil, visibly burn oil, or leave oil stains! Owned the car a good few years and never did get to the bottom of it (it ran fine so I put up with it)!

Looking back, I can only guess a failed rear crank oil seal, and the clutch bell housing was filling up with oil!

Pete, come to think of it I had complained (internally!) that the car regularly needed topping up of oil since we got it

Hmmmm. OK. Bizzarre. I'm thinking all sorts of things now, but I'll keep them to myself! 🙂
I don't like cars that use oil. Don't trust 'em. (Yeah, silly...) But most do to some extent. Any more than a litre between oil changes is taking the piss IMO

I'm surprised you are not leaving a smoke screen of blue smoke behind you with oil consumption that bad.

We had a MK3 Golf with 150k on it, when we removed the plugs and with an endoscope we could still see the original cross hatching on the bores. My old Saab 900 was the same at 180k and the oil was syrup clean too.

A head gasket failure would surely have some associated coolant over heating symptoms.

I'm surprised you are not leaving a smoke screen of blue smoke behind you with oil consumption that bad.

I'm not. 🙂