[Closed] ot: 50cc scooters - any thoughts? Peugeots ok?

The CBT is a (slightly odd) christmas pressie for her and maybe look at the wheels next year once she has done the test.
TJ the cost of insurance and clothing can be easily offset by the savings I will make in fuel not being a taxi!

Cool - its just don't forget them. Decent set of armoured waterproofs, decent FF helmet, gloves and boots can be several hundred. HeinGerike are good value and have womens stuff

Isn't a moped anything restricted to 30 mph?

It's only 8 miles, swat bicycles are for!

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/LearnerAndNewDrivers/RidingMotorcyclesAndMopeds/DG_10016249

Flow was right 🙂 TJ are you being an augmentative thistle ass again?

How was flow right?

Would anyone care to explain why being able to accelerate faster is safer?

Accelerating out of trouble is virtually impossible in my experience unless you have an extremely powerful car. Braking is much much safer.

If you agree that it's possible to accelerate out of trouble in an extremely powerful car, you appreciate the benefits of accelerating out of trouble.

Even modest, mid range commuter motorcycles provide supercar levels of acceleration, which can be used to put trouble long behind you rather than leaving you stuck in the middle of it.

The really low powered mopeds cannot manage this, therefore one of the unique abilities of the motorcycle is lost. You are more at the mercy of the traffic around you.

Even modest, mid range commuter motorcycles provide supercar levels of acceleration

This is a thread abotu 125cc vs 50cc scooters!

Anyway, it might be possible to accelerate out of trouble with sufficient power, but I doubt it's advisable. After this supreme burst of speed you might be doing 100mph without necessarily having been able to assess the road ahead... If you don't have the ability to accelerate 'out of danger' then you learn to brake out of it instead, surely?

I'm deeply sceptical that there's any safety advantage of extreme power; I think it's just people trying to justify it.

nmdbases - flow was not right. - go back and read it. Yes I was being argumentative but flow claimed that scooters and mopeds are the same thing, he also said all scooters have samll wheels which is wrong - they are not and made a load of claims about he handling and braking abilities of scooters which are wrong

Molgrips

You obviously have no experience of riding a motorcycle, please shut up and just accept that on a motorcycle there are usually three ways of getting of of trouble:

1 brake
2 swerve (the hardest, as they want to go straight on), and
3 accelerate

And this even applies to mopeds (and also bicycles).

[i]I'm deeply sceptical that there's any safety advantage of extreme power; I think it's just people trying to justify it.[/i]

Who said anything about 'extreme' power? Bikes weigh very little so need little power to accelerate.

br - IMO / IME you can only accelerate out 9f trouble if you have made a mistake already - going for a closing gap is the main way.

Its hard for me to think of anyway acceleration helps unless you have already put yourself in a dodgy position

It's only 8 miles, swat bicycles are for!

It's not even that. As per my OP, I normally cycle 8.5 miles e/w to work. But, 2-3 days a month I have to go to London, which means I need to get to the station, 4miles away, instead. I'd love to cycle it, and easily could, but not without getting hot and sweaty. Suits, laptops,presentations, and a couple of steep hills etc.

It's all on simple, safe, roads that I would not worry about cycling on and regularly do cycle on. I don't want to become a "biker" and the expense of doing CBT and insuring a big bike are not justified for the usage levels and roads. We have a family car. I passed the car test in 1997, and I'm getting insurance quotes on a 50cc jetforce for about £75/year.

So I'm looking at 50cc scooters/mopeds etc as a "bike alternative". Someone did helpfully state the Vespa/Piaggio models have a good reliability level, but where would be best to find them under £600? I' struggling locally and on ebay.

Who said anything about 'extreme' power? Bikes weigh very little so need little power to accelerate

Extreme power to weight, I was simply saving typing. I'd have thought that was obvious. Anyway I was talking about vehicles in general not bikes. The laws of physics still apply to bikes just as much as cars, no matter how many bikers are in denial about it.

Agreeing with TJ twice on one thread, and it's only page 3.

Love my little Sym jet euro x.

[IMG] [/IMG]

58mph,£88 insurance,£16 a year tax!

This is a thread abotu 125cc vs 50cc scooters!

The higher of those two capacities is two and a half times the size of the smaller. That makes a big difference.

Even the best riders and drivers can find themselves in undesirable situations from time to time, due either to their own misjudgement as fallible humans or unexpected changes happening around them due to the fallibility of the other humans sharing the road. The best defensive driving in the world doesn't make you invincible.

Issues arise. Having the tools to deal with them can make the difference between life and death. I'd rather have them, personally.

Acceleration is different to top speed. Powering out of danger and three digit speedometer readings are not mutually inclusive. It can be as simple and subtle as making sure you stay out of the blind spot of another road user, thus avoiding the potential for trouble further down the road.

It's about having the flexibility to create safety for yourself. Being the slowest on the road takes away some of that flexibility. And that's without going into the additional handling and braking capacity that generally increases in line with engine power.

[i]Its hard for me to think of anyway acceleration helps unless you have already put yourself in a dodgy position[/i]

TJ - I could probably recite a dozen instances just in the last few months, have you never commuted in a busy urban area?

And tbh this is part of what makes a motorcycle and why we ride them - its ability to get through gaps and make progress when all around are stuck queueing.

50cc scooters are just fine when kept within 30 limits. Once the traffic is travelling faster than the limiter allows they're not much fun but if your commute is entirely within an urban area then I'd be inclined to ignore all the advice regarding faster options.

molgrips - Member
Anyway, it might be possible to accelerate out of trouble with sufficient power, but I doubt it's advisable

I've ridden motorbikes for 30 years (scarily..).

An example: years ago I was in the local Asda carpark bimbling along the through road on a <I forget what bike>. Suddenly some halfwit in a car appears to my left from one of the parking rows, hasn't spotted the white lines that signify joining the through road and is about to T bone me. A swift twist of the throttle and I was away out of danger. On a bicycle or in a car (though I'd assume said halfwit may have spotted me then) I've have been in trouble.

It is absolutely possible to escape danger using a powered two wheeler's acceleration.

br - I have ridden hundreds of thousands of miles on motorcycles over decades. I have never "accelerated out of trouble" except out of a closing gap I should never have been in and I cannot think of an instance where it might happen

TJ - nonsense. On the open road I'd probably agree with you, but in town, no.

Sorry - never done it, never seen a place where it would be necessary as I say apart from a closing gap where you should not be. Many years of urban commuting as well.

Just not a part of the way I ride and I ain't slow.(or didn't used to be :-))

Well we all have different riding styles, I'm not saying it's a common occurrence, but in my experience there have been times when I've accelerated out of trouble, and doubtless there will be more.

I admit a few of them have been out of situations I should not have put myself in in the first place....

I think thats it Gilo - its the dreaded closing gap - the too quick overtake, the filtering gap that closes - then a burst of power can get you out of the trouble.

apart from a closing gap tho I find it hard to think of another - even the side road one posted above its such a very small time slot that the extra bit of acceleration actually prevents him hitting you when stopping would not

So you agree it does happen, albeit when you (the rider) has maybe made a slight error of judgement? 🙂

Aye - thats what I said in my first post on it

TandemJeremy - Member

br - IMO / IME you can only accelerate out 9f trouble if you have made a mistake already - going for a closing gap is the main way.

Its hard for me to think of anyway acceleration helps unless you have already put yourself in a dodgy position

TJ - I give up, and I don't know what world you live in, but its nothing like mine - what's it like to be perfect?

TJ: Ok, so we agree the superior acceleration a two-wheeler has can get you out of trouble.

You feel it's only when the rider has ballsed-up.

I agree, but believe, and have experienced, there are times when acceleration can save your arse when you have done nothing wrong.

Guess we'll have to agree to differ

White101 ..just for your info my missus's honda sfx50 will buzz up any devon hill no problem and probably 2 up !( and it's not restricted) )

really enjoyed FLOW V TANDEM thanks gents !

with regards to your insurance claim flow I can assure you that if you'd injured / or killed someone and a claim was being made against you your insurers would have been most interested in whether your bike had been modified and not declared because they don't want to pay out unless they have to!

BR - its simply that I have never been in the situation of acceleration saving me from an accident apart from when I have been going thru a closing gap which is a misjudgement.

Oh I ain't perfect - despite averaging 75mph on a roads I couldn't keep up with my mates.

I cannoot even think of a situation where it would be so - perhaps you could enlighten me?

kaiser

really enjoyed FLOW V TANDEM thanks gents !

*takes a bow*

Really TJ coming from one "old man" to another I don't know how you can be bothered with all these arguments ..I gave up years ago for a quieter life! B####y Funny though!

It can be as simple and subtle as making sure you stay out of the blind spot of another road user

I'm acutely aware of this at all times - perhaps from cycling - and I've always found braking to be far more effective at keeping oneself out of a blind spot.

I suspect that having the power on tap tempts one to use it, when braking would do just fine.

Think I'd agree with TJ btw, I can't think of any time I had to power my way out of a dicey situation where it couldn't have been avoided in a better way, with a bit more foresight or better action preceeding it. Not to say that I'd consider that to be neccesarily an error, you can't always act correctly but I reckon that using power to get out of trouble is something I've only ever had to do after missing other opportunities to get out of trouble, or not get into trouble.

I spent a long time on a dog-slow 4-stroke 125 and a bit of time on scooters and tbh I never felt that the lack of acceleration was unsafe. Drivers seemed to react badly to the scooter, definately felt looked down on which I never did on the 125 (since it looked like a proper bike)

Drivers seemed to react badly to the scooter

[i]Definately[/i] a scooter.

What's a moped? Is it like a scooter?

TJ deliberately winds people up and then reports them to the mods to be banned when they get upset shocker 😯

I have not reported anyone to the mods. I don't report people for getting cross with me ever.
I only report offensive racist sexist or other ist posts.

Liar, you did the same to me, remember?

I know the truth - you can ask the mods but I do not report people for getting cross with me and I have not reported flow if he got himself banned.
He was however asking for a banning posting far outside the rules and the mods might have seen it - but I did not report him

Edit - I don't remember reporting you. what for?

[img] [/img]

a moped yesterday ...... note the pedals

[img] [/img]

scooter

A mate of mine from our Club bought one of these back from France, it's a Solex, anyway he thought he'd be able to ride it without a helmet until Plod got hold of him. Seems in France you can ride it without a helmet as it's under some CC or other.

[img] [/img]

in most of mainland you can ride under 26kph without a helmet, licence , mot , tax or insurance

im in holland atm and some of the contraptions they have are mental

but they have the cycle path infrastructure to allow it(and the rules in place to stop folk cluttering up the roads with them). in the uk it would be chaos

in the uk anything that goes over 15mph under its own speed or via a combustion engine needs tax and insurance.

TandemJeremy - Member
despite averaging 75mph on a roads

is that a boast or a confession 🙄

either or both - surprised it took so long for someone to pull me up 🙂

TandemJeremy - Member
surprised it took so long for someone to pull me up

standards are slipping 😉

Its hard for me to think of anyway acceleration helps unless you have already put yourself in a dodgy position

I love scooters. **** all chance I'd ride them outside London though. Unless it was a Honda monkey bike 8)

Accelerating and braking are exactly the same thing

Not at all. Braking REMOVES energy from the system, accelerating ADDS it. So you end up going faster. If I brake hard eventually I'll stop. If I accelerate hard I'll end up doing 100mph. Accelerating results in more speed and hence more risky situations could transpire.

Traffic is expecting (on the whole) people to suddenly stop or slow down - it's what happens, we are (or should be) prepared for it, it's legitimate. Traffic is less likely to be expecting a motorcyclist to suddenly open the taps and come hooning through some shrinking gap.

Just a thought.

Molgrips - and it matters not one jot what traffic is thinking - the only thing that matters is the safety of the motorcyclist.

I think it DOES matter what traffic is expecting. In driving in general, and cycling, it really helps to know what people are expecting, and how to fit in with those expectations. I avoid a lot of situations that could be tight or risky by predicting what other people will do.

I am always thinking about what other people will be thinking. In life, and on the roads 🙂

Molgrips - and here is where your lack of knowledge of motorcycling lets you down. On a bike you always assume no one has seen you and you know that no one in a car has the slightest idea of the capabilities of a motorbike.

I don't care if I surprise you - all I care about is being safe. Because you and others have no idea of the capabilities of a motorcycle you will often be surprised by completely reasonable manoeuvres

But TJ, surprising other drivers is inherently not safe, surely?

Safety and anticipation go hand in hand, surely too goodness? I'm not against surprising people out of courtesy, it's specifically a safety thing.

Not at all. Braking REMOVES energy from the system, accelerating ADDS it

You lose a lot of control while braking on a motorcycle. Oddly accelerating often gives you more control.

Braking is often the worst thing you can do on a motorbike, particularly in a corner.

Ok 5e, all fair points but you just said braking and accelerating were the same, and now you just said they're not. Which was my point 🙂

You lose a lot of control while braking on a motorcycle. Oddly accelerating often gives you more control.

Now, stuff like this makes me even more convinced that motorcycling is inherently more dangerous than driving.

Molgripos - you don't understand - sorry.

Its been pointed out to you over and over again. You have no idea of the capabilities of a motorcycle so I could be doing a perfectly reasonable and legal manoeuvre and still surprise you.

Its safer to get the manoeuvring out of the way quickly - if that suprises the car driver so be it.

TJ I am not talking about motorbikes now. Surprising other people is bad. It may be the lesser of two evils in some particular situation, but it's still bad. No matter if you are driving or walking or anything else potentially risky.

End of, now lets move on.

Molgrips - you really need to ride a bike to understand this.

suppose I had two ways of doing a manoeuvre - one does not surprise the car driver, the other will but has greater safety margins - I take the one with greater safety margins everytime.

Now, stuff like this makes me even more convinced that motorcycling is inherently more dangerous than driving.

You should have a look at those bicycle things though. Lycra and comedy lumps of polystyrene balanced on your head. Makes motorbikes look safe.

I'll read the last 3 pages properly later, maybe.... But I've had a skim through.

FLOW:
Stability. Yes, a bigger wheeled bike may be more stable (And it may not) but stability isn't necessarily what's needed! Scooters generally turn faster and in traffic, that's what you DO want! 🙂

Like I said, anti-scooter bias and no idea what you're on about! 😛

flow
And for the record, a scooter is a moped.

No it's not.

Moped/Scooter classification

A 50cc scooter is also technically a moped. Pedals have nowt to do with it.
A 50cc trail bike is also technically a moped. Gears have nowt to do with it
A 50cc sports bike is also tecnically a moped. Style has nowt to do with it.

I scooter can be a moped, and a moped can be a scooter, but one don't necessarily follow the other!
Mopeds are 50cc things you can ride on a car license, basically, and these days there are more 125cc+ ones than 50s, probably!

Lycra and comedy lumps of polystyrene balanced on your head. Makes motorbikes look safe

Next time I feel I can't brake so I have to gun it to 80mph through a narrowing gap on my MTB I'll bear that in mind 🙂

I'm acutely aware of this at all times - perhaps from cycling - and I've always found braking to be far more effective at keeping oneself out of a blind spot.

I suspect that having the power on tap tempts one to use it, when braking would do just fine.

When conversely, in a forum thread it seems your favoured method of getting out of a situation is definitely not to slow, but to keep moving forward.

To avoid falling into a blind spot, you can generally do it in two ways. One is to fall back and risk a situation where the other driver continues to be oblivious to your presence. The other is to move forward, out of their peripheral vision and into their direct line of sight, thus doing everything you can to ensure they see you.

The first option, slowing, also has the potential to close the distance between yourself and following traffic. A rear end shunt on a motorcycle isn't a bent bumper and a phone call to the insurance company. It's straight to hospital after being skittled across the tarmac.

Being stuck in a tight spot on a motorcycle is different to being stuck in a tight spot in a metal box. And the solutions are accordingly different. On two wheels, trying to make yourself as visible to everyone while still acting as if you are invisible is a good way to stay safe.

As you should well know from being a cyclist and a driver, there is no one solution to fit every situation. Anyone acutely aware of their actions on the road at all times will know this. Accepting, and being capable of adapting to the infinitely variable situations around us proves most helpful in staying safe. Closing ones eyes to a potential method of avoiding trouble simply removes one option we have at our disposal.

So a situation arises around you, and there's clear road ahead you can get safely into? Go get into it. Being behind a problem means you're at the mercy of it as it unfolds and your safety is dictated by the actions of others. But if you have the flexibility to put trouble well behind you, you can have more control of your safety and not have to rely on others. Relying on the skills of those we share the road with is the best way to get into trouble.

Sometimes it's safer to slow, yes. But despite what you've always found - an opinion formed only of your own experiences, and I'm yet to meet a man that has experienced everything the roads have to offer - sometimes it is safer to move forward.

No doubt I'm wrong, somehow, on some technicality or semantic detail, but it's the last post from me on this (off) topic. So on the winding road which is this thread I'll step on the brakes and drop back, using your favoured driving method, and hope for the best. We'll see how that goes.

My apologies to the OP for contributing to the irreverent arse wiping all over your thread.

I've often found myself in a blind spot, and considered accelerating through it (and done it a few times too) - but then I wonder what would happen if they choose that moment to change lanes and I back off. By which I don't mean slam on the anchors.

But anyway, someone please close this as I apparently can't help myself.

Righto. I've read a bit more now. Let's clear this bit up and put it to bed, shall we?

To which PP said

That's mid information at best, poor advice would be a better description.
Please tell me
A) how many miles you've done on scooters (I've done a good 20000-30000 at the very least, and probably 150000 on motorbikes)
B) why a 125 bike is any safer based on your knowledge

I get sick of anti scooter bias by people that don't know a thing about them.

My reply

Because generally they accelerates quicker, stops quicker, have bigger wheels so are a lot more stable, they can go faster so you are not always being overtaken - which is dangerous.

I was comparing engine size, like for like, so 125cc bike vs 125cc scooter etc. I might not have been too clear though. Sorry if not.

That said, lets compare a 50cc scooter and a 125cc bike for a minute.

Would you STILL like to tell my why 'faster' = 'safer' ?
Becasue I'm fairly sure that you'll be less likely to crash at 30mph, than you will be at 70mph......and if you do it won't hurt as much, will it?
I've ridden a 50 round town. It was fine. I see no reason why not to get one if you spend all your time in 30 & 40 limits.
-------------------------------
Back to same size engines, 125 vs 125.

Why is a bike 'safer' than a 'scooter'? Scoots turn and stop on a sixpence. Mine has the same cross section front tyre as my Ducati for example!(120)
[u]THIS[/u] is the anti-scooter bias I mentioned, becasue you'll probably come out with an OPINION (based on zilch) and present it as FACT.

And I'll tell you right now, there is **** all difference to all intents and purposes between the two, apart from image and best primary use.
Having run 3 125cc bikes and 4 scooters, primarily as commuters, I'll tell you for free that scooters:
Do the job better
Are more comfortable
Are cheaper to run
Are FAR better in traffic

This is why I still have one (Vespa GT200) but most 'bikers' are blinkered and sneer at them becasue they aren't big and tough and loud and impressive and are for girls and kids.
I can live with that, but the bullshit and predjudice does annoy me sometimes!

I still wounldn't touch (Another...) Peugeot scooter though. They are a bit shonky.

oh my days what has happend i leave for 1 day and it turns into a bitchfest
end of the day
1.scooter/moped its just a clasification deal with it
2.a 50cc will do fine for the short trip o/p is sugesting**
3 de-restriction IS legal as long as over 17,license allows and ins are told
4.Peugeots are fine but there are better out there but cost more(se other posts)

**but a 125 would be better as once u get on ul get the bug
good luck to the o/p sifting through all this.

I think it's true to say that the law does not recognise the term scooter, in essence it's a style of motorcycle and/or moped as far as that goes. Though where the dividing line between scooters, scooterettes and other sub-categories lies has been debated elsewhere but seems to lie in the hands of manufacturers' marketing departments.