[Closed] Osbourne says no to currency union.

You did Ben, but you were also told that the Fiscal Commission looked at it and rejected it. I gave you the link to the reason.

That's the problem AS has - he can't keep saying currency union is the Fiscal Commission's idea and then use something they rejected as plan B.

epicyclo - Member

This may be of interest:

Indeed it is. It is particularly interesting that those who would like to purport themselves as "left-wing" should use an argument put forth by a right-winger.

Very interesting. This bit was particularly interesting :

[i] Because Scottish banks would not have access to a currency-printing lender of last resort, they would have to make their own provisions for illiquidity, and would necessarily act more prudently.[/i]

I can understand the appeal that might have to a right-winger. Welcome to austerity Scotland.

Unilaterally adopting Sterling will mean that Scotland is not really independent. It would be like the current situation, only without any MPs in Westminster, and with the BoE not caring a jot about inflation or growth north of the border.

It would be like the current situation, only without any MPs in Westminster, and with the BoE not caring a jot about inflation or growth north of the border.

So in other words nothing like the current situation then.

Labour say no to a currency union in their manifesto [url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11021552/Scottish-currency-union-ruled-out-in-Labour-manifesto-if-Yes-vote.html ]Link[/url]

They need to add no to further devolution as well so we can see just how much Scots really want independence. Any constitutional changes should be put in a referendum for the whole of the UK to vote on.

A very prudent Scottish bank wouldn't lend very much. That's bad for consumers and for businesses and thus bad for the Scottish economy. You cannot unilaterally having a banking system which is way more conservative than your neighbours and expect to be competitive.

ery interesting. This bit was particularly interesting :

Because Scottish banks would not have access to a currency-printing lender of last resort, they would have to make their own provisions for illiquidity, and would necessarily act more prudently.

I can understand the appeal that might have to a right-winger. Welcome to austerity Scotland.

In reality, the financial institutions would largely head South and set up in London. The EU banking regs would also require a substantial shift of employment to London as well (Bank HQs are required in the Country where they employ most of their staff).

Obviously this wouldn't be a problem if rUK were to exit the EU towards the end of the decade.

ery interesting. This bit was particularly interesting :

Because Scottish banks would not have access to a currency-printing lender of last resort, they would have to make their own provisions for illiquidity, and would necessarily act more prudently.

I can understand the appeal that might have to a right-winger. Welcome to austerity Scotland.

In reality, the financial institutions would largely head South and set up in London. The EU banking regs would also require a substantial shift of employment to London as well (Bank HQs are required in the Country where they employ most of their staff).

Obviously this wouldn't be a problem if rUK were to exit the EU towards the end of the decade.

They need to add no to further devolution as well so we can see just how much Scots really want independence. Any constitutional changes should be put in a referendum for the whole of the UK to vote on.

The referendum will show how much people in Scotland want independence. That is the purpose of it after all. I am sure we don't need additional threats added.

Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland all have some form of devolved power, all three seeking some more as well. Should Wales and NI be barred from further devolution as well as Scotland. Everyone put up and shut up eh? Heaven forbid we try and change something not working for us.

That will be a lot of referendums if you get your way. Pretty sure things such as devolution are put in manifestos so we can vote for them in first place. What a tit.

As we discussed at the time, you have to appreciate the context of the Adam Smith stuff although the clue is in the title! They are making a(n extreme) point in relation to moral hazard which suits their perspective. For Scotland that would be an impractical solution that would result and require large scale relocation. Hence it won't happen, unless the DO was really stupid.

Agree with EL, it was funny who jumped on stuff from ASI and who rejected it at the time.

Rene can't you accept that some English people resent Scots making the UK a more unfair place. I am not against Scots getting their referendum I just hope they would not want to deny the rUK a vote on more devolution for Scotland.

...... resent Scots making the UK a more unfair place.

What a load of nonsense.

A lack of devolved power to the English regions - that's unfair. But it's got bugger all to do with the Scots.

There is nothing the Scots have done that has made "the UK a more unfair place".

The only "English people" I know of who believe that sort of nonsense are the English Democrats, IME a right bunch of pain in the arse nutters, and another assorted groups of right-wing St George's Cross waving bigots.

No fasternotfatter I can't accept that because it is bollocks. If that's what you accept then fine, you have bigger problems than I can help you with.

Rene can't you accept that some English people resent Scots making the UK a more unfair place. I am not against Scots getting their referendum I just hope they would not want to deny the rUK a vote on more devolution for Scotland.

When will people realise that this is not about English people? If people in England want better regional representation they need to push for it. This referendum is about what the people who live in Scotland want to do with their country.

40 days left.

Seems like an awfy long time away right now

Wan I have no problem with the independence referendum I just think in the event of a no vote that further Scottish devolution should be put to a referendum for the rUK.
If Scotland wants to leave the UK then I wish them well. If they want to stay in the UK but change the current political set-up then I would like a referendum on this. Further devolution should be of benefit to the whole of the UK and not just a halfway house to eventual independence. I don't want the UK to have to go through this again in my lifetime.

Perhaps fnf would like the whole EU to have a referendum on the UK's membership or on the UKs opt outs and rebate?

[quote=fasternotfatter ]Wan I have no problem with the independence referendum I just think in the event of a no vote that further Scottish devolution should be put to a referendum for the rUK.
If Scotland wants to leave the UK then I wish them well. If they want to stay in the UK but change the current political set-up then I would like a referendum on this. Further devolution should be of benefit to the whole of the UK and not just a halfway house to eventual independence. I don't want the UK to have to go through this again in my lifetime.
FWIW, each of the three main UK parties has said that, in the event of a vote in favour of dependency, they will present further powers for Scotland in their manifestos for the 2016 General Election. The whole of the UK electorate [i]would[/i] therefore get a say in what powers/responsibilities would be devolved.

Gordi scotroutes I take it you accept independence is now looking unlikely and it is now more appropriate to discuss what happens next.

Of course the EU should vote on any changes that affect the EU, it would be undemocratic not to do so.

If all of the three parties have pledged more powers then I really have no vote on changes to the UK and that is not democratic. I really think this should go to a referendum as more devolution affects the balance of the the UK. If you want definite change have the balls to vote for independence.

hora - Member
What 'worries' me is those people who have shit, dull, average lives who think a independent Scotland will give them opportunities etc etc rather than what will really happen is they'll still have a shit, dull and average life in any economy because of one common denominator' themself. Not listening properly at school, not being self-motivated etc.

I'm worried these type will vote yes because they see no future for themself and think well nowt to lose. These are the dangerous type. Idiots.

Thats me, but happy with my life thank you, but I dont think that way.
I doubt the caliber of politician or civil servant currently in place can do any better than what we have now.

During my 44yr working life I have watched various "self-motivated(greedy)" people self destruct. They may have a bigger house or 2, bigger car,take more foreign holidays that I ever have but are they any happier than me?

In the case of a yes vote can we have Edinburgh and the fringe please?

Trekster +1
Fnf Independence is looking more likely now than it has for a very long time 🙂 More seriously I knew this campaign would be tough and as yet nothing has happened that has particularly surprised me except that it has shown up the poor state of the news/ current affairs at BBC Scotland...not biased but overworked and often shoddy.

wanmankylung - Member
Personally, I would be happy to pay a lot more tax and have less cash if it meant that we could have a fairer society. That's what I believe a yes vote will achieve.

According to a source close to me approx 100k new civil service jobs will be required.Eck has already got rid(retired/moved)some of those he did`nt like and placed yes-men in post(allegedly)

Millions will need to be spent on new computer systems to service iS that are currently shared. We all know how good government is at that!!! Although I`m sure an iS government will be much better 🙄

Where does the NHS fit in all this?

fasternotfatter - Member
Rene can't you accept that some English people resent Scots making the UK a more unfair place.

If Scotland votes for independence then that should be that. Not sure why it is such a problem for the rest after all they have to "rebuild" everything from scratch or perhaps pay their debts. 🙄

I bet Mel Gibson will again cry out ... frreeeddddoooommm! 😆

Trekster if you Google Philippa Whitford (she's a surgeon.)you should get a video in which she explains her worries about the implications of a no vote for the NHS in Scotland. I think it's worth watching.

Fnf Independence is looking more likely now than it has for a very long time More seriously I knew this campaign would be tough and as yet nothing has happened that has particularly surprised me except that it has shown up the poor state of the news/ current affairs at BBC Scotland...not biased but overworked and often shoddy.

Hitler in his last days still thought the war could be won....

Think I've just been godwinised 😀

Only in your limited view of the world gordi 🙄

gordimhor earlier

[img] [/img]

😆

Well done Ernie it makes a change from your usual tedious Mel Gibson references

Your right gordi who cares about the polls just keep dreaming about being free from the english and how good it will feel to be free and who cares if about being irrelevant freeedooommmmmmmmmm

Good point, I haven't mentioned Mel Gibson recently.

Is this a look that you like gordimhor ?

[img] [/img]

Tedious and stupid fnf I've said time and again there is no place for anti English prejudice in modern Scotland and I have no time for it.

I take it that's a self portrait Ernie

The polls are against you gordi accept it that independence is over.

Why?

Oh good grief....

How does Scotland propose to plug the deficit between its oil share+tax income-welfare/social costs? Circa 7billion each year.

Or does the small country England have to help here?

Awaits Trident/HS2/Crossrail etc response......

There's only one certainty as to what will/will not happen post referendum. The "I told you so" thread regarding the referendum result is going to be insufferable.

The "I told you so" thread regarding the referendum result is going to be insufferable.

At the start of this thread I felt that the yes vote would probably win, just. It's now looking fairly likely that they won't, I feel a little embarrassed that I appeared to have underestimated the wisdom of Scots. Which bearing in mind Scotland's previous voting behaviour should have been a bit more obvious.

Always gone for the v close vote. In fact, despite everything I still think it will be close with the DO pulling one last stunt. Surely he can't really be going down with such a whimper.....

Still incredible that so many are actually going to vote yes. Amazing what politicians can pull off with fairy tales and deceit. Fortunately you can only fool some of the people some of the time.

How does Scotland propose to plug the deficit between its oil share+tax income-welfare/social costs?

Exactly the same way the UK does at the moment - borrowing. No big deal, an independent Scotland will have a good credit rating.

Glasgow is now 58% Yes once you strip out the undecideds, according to the latest Survation poll. Which doesn't surprise me going by the conversations I have.

Still incredible that so many are actually going to vote yes.

Not really when you consider how many people are prepared to vote Tory. Some people just don't bother to stop and think.

Some people just don't bother to stop and think.

Yes, you're absolutely right, people voting Yes are just doing it in a whim and haven't really thought about it.

🙄

fasternotfatter - Member
The polls are against you gordi accept it that independence is over.

Strangely the polls have been against the SNP every election I have voted in since returning to this country, and even stranger, they keep increasing their lead despite the dedication of deceased Labour voters postal votes.

Fortunately polls are not real votes.

Independence will never be over.

bencooper - Member

"Some people just don't bother to stop and think."

Yes, you're absolutely right, people voting Yes are just doing it in a whim and haven't really thought about it.

If there is one thing above all else that has become apparent during this campaign it is that the separatists haven't thought anything through.

In fact it's staggering just how much has been left to faith, hope, and bucket loads of wishful thinking.

Independence will never be over.

Indeed - what do Better Together think will happen if there's a No vote? Nearly half the population is just going to say "oh well" and forget about the idea?

The Tories in Scotland are dead. Lib Dems are almost as dead because of their links to the Tories. Labour is losing people in droves because they made a political decision to get in bed with the Tories on independence, and Ed's latest intervention isn't going to help with that.

Indeed - what do Better Together think will happen if there's a No vote? Nearly half the population is just going to say "oh well" and forget about the idea?

Please, please, please vote Yes!

I cannot face the whining coming from the Scots about hard done by they are anymore! To think that they get the referendum and then will not accept the result if it goes against them just sums them up. Behaving like a bunch of petulant teenagers.

Glasgow is now 58% Yes once you strip out the undecideds

Indeed - what do Better Together think will happen if there's a No vote? Nearly half the population is just going to say "oh well" and forget about the idea?

Assume that people will accept a democratically delivered result with some grace and be thankful that they remain in one of the most successful unions in history. - that would be a start.

(Oh and put the DO out to graze and out of harms way)

The Isle of Bute is 100% yes when you strip out undecided and no's

To think that they get the referendum and then will not accept the result if it goes against them just sums them up. Behaving like a bunch of petulant teenagers.

The minute the Indy campaign lost any chance of me voting Yes was when I was described as a "second class citizen" for daring to consider that independence might not be such a good idea with the current lot at the helm. I know "godwinning" is generally frowned upon, but history doesn't have good tales to tell of Nationalists who go around grading the worth of people based on arbitrary lines of distinction.

The Flying Ox - Member
....but history doesn't have good tales to tell of Nationalists who go around grading the worth of people based on arbitrary lines of distinction.

You're so right. A few examples of that last sentence.

Those foolish French people who wanted the Germans out of France purely for nationalistic reasons. If only they had let them stay the world would have been a much better place.

Those nasty Vietnamese who wanted the French out of Vietnam.

Those Lithuanians who wanted rid of Russia, etc etc

It's not what the greater power thinks that matters, but what the people resident in that country think.

Have a nice cup of tea and stop frothing... 🙂

Those foolish French people who wanted the Germans out of France purely for nationalistic reasons

It's a ****ing Union not an invasion!

If you really think the UK is the same as the examples you gave, you are absolutely batshit mental! 🙄

Too true gobuchul. Most of epicyclo's posts worry me.

one of the most successful unions in history.

Successful for who? If Scotland hadn't been in the union it would have had all the oil money to itself and spend a metric **** tonne less on illegal wars.

it would have had all the oil money to itself

This is what it's all about. Greed basically.

So let's not consider the last 300 years but just look at the last 30 - 40 years.

If Scotland hadn't been in the Union, the Enlightenment MAY never of happened, the Clans MAY of stayed in power in the Highlands and the country MAY of remained basically tribal and backward.

This is what it's all about. Greed basically.

Yes, Westminster wants to keep all of Scotland's oil money - the greedy swines.

We, Scotland, may also not have lost a hell of a lot of people in a hell of a lot of wars.

Yes, Westminster wants to keep all of [s]Scotland's[/s] the UK's oil money - the greedy swines.

FTFY

If Scotland hadn't been in the union it would have had all the oil money to itself and spend a metric **** tonne less on illegal wars.

I think the reference was to the last 300 years.

Britain, of which Scotland is an integral and vital component, was the birthplace of the global industrial revolution. It was for hundreds of years quite rightly regarded as "the workshop of the world".

Scotland played a very substantial role in those achievements but there is no evidence that on its own Scotland, or indeed the rest of the UK on its own, would have equaled those achievements.

In fact they almost certainly wouldn't have as the different contributions made by the various regions of the UK is what made it so successful.

We, Scotland, may also not have lost a hell of a lot of people in a hell of a lot of wars.

There hasn't been any forced conscription in the UK for a very long time. No Scot has been forced to die against their will in any war for over 50 years.

You don't need "independence" to stop Scots fighting against their will in wars. HTH

There hasn't been any forced conscription in the UK for a very long time. No Scot has been forced to die against their will in any war for over 50 years.

If we're going back to the enlightenment and industrial revolution we're going back to times when there was forced conscription. Please try and keep to the context.

times when there was forced conscription

That will be 1916 - 1918 and 1939 - 1960.

So you are saying that Scotland should sat out of WW2 had it been independent? Although, as it may well of been a poverty stricken rural economy, it may not of been of any significance.

So you are saying that Scotland should sat out of WW2 had it been independent?

No, I am saying that the decision to go to war, or not, would have been taken by the people of Scotland, not people in London. That is what the whole independence movement is all about. Major decisions which effect Scotland should be taken by the people who live here.

I am saying that the decision to go to war, or not, would have been taken by the people of Scotland, not people in London.

So, the decision to go to war would of been made by people in Edinburgh, not Glasgow/Orkney/Skye etc, even though the decision will affect the rest of the country?

If we're going back to the enlightenment and industrial revolution we're going back to times when there was forced conscription.

I'm sorry I didn't realise that you voting Yes because Scots have been forced to fight against their will for over 300 years 😆

BTW it does amusing me to see saltire waving mel gibson wannabes emphasising the pacifist credentials of Scots, and how they have been forced to fight against their will by the more savage warlike inhabitants of these islands

[img] [/img]

😀

So, the decision to go to war would of been made by people in Edinburgh, not Glasgow/Orkney/Skye etc, even though the decision will affect the rest of the country?

Your argument is stupid. Edinburgh is in Scotland, London isn't.

gobuchul - Member
"Those foolish French people who wanted the Germans out of France purely for nationalistic reasons"
It's a **** Union not an invasion!

If you really think the UK is the same as the examples you gave, you are absolutely batshit mental!

I did try to make it clear I was addressing your last sentence and your use of nationalism as a negative concept, so I simply gave a few examples where nationalism was a force for good for the people of those respective countries.

Try having that cup of tea, and don't worry, I don't regard the Union as an invasion, it's more like a toxic marriage.

The divorce hearing starts in 39 days. 🙂

Edinburgh is in Scotland, London isn't.

I would suggest that the people of Edinburgh have more in common with Londoners than they do with the people of Skye or Orkney.

I did try to make it clear I was addressing your last sentence and your use of nationalism as a negative concept,

Not sure what you are on about?
When did I say that?

Glasgow is now 58% Yes once you strip out the undecideds

lol

Glad I've amused you. How else would you do it to reflect voting intentions? Glasgow is going to vote Yes, according to this survey of 1000 people.

This is what it's all about. Greed basically.

Yes, I admit it, I'm greedy. I want schools and hospitals instead of nuclear weapons. It's selfish of me to want to educate and help people when we could incinerate them in a nuclear fireball instead.

I want schools and hospitals instead of nuclear weapons

I thought we had all three?

Disarmament is always such a good idea in the real World.

[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeasement ]Peace in Our Time[/url]

I thought we had all three?

More schools and hospitals would be better, surely?

Disarmament is always such a good idea in the real World.

Peace in Our Time

Who are we appeasing? Who could we conceivably use nuclear weapons against without being obliterated? Russia? Terrorists?

Someone's been reading way too much Tom Clancy.

ernie_lynch - Member
...BTW it does amusing me to see saltire waving mel gibson wannabes emphasising the pacifist credentials of Scots, and how they have been forced to fight against their will by the more savage warlike inhabitants of these islands

Apart from the gratuitous insult re Mel Gibson*, that's a reasonable statement.

One of the contradictions of the independence campaign is we see people (me included) pointing out the benefits of not having to spend money killing overseas foreigners. Meanwhile others are lamenting the reductions of the great Scottish regiments as a reason for independence.

*It's not Gibson we admire, it's what William Wallace achieved.

Who could we conceivably use nuclear weapons against without being obliterated? Russia? Terrorists?

Complete failure to understand how a Strategic Nuclear Deterrent works.

Someone's been reading way too much Tom Clancy.

I can honestly say I have never got past the first chapter on any of his books. 🙂

Complete failure to understand how a Strategic Nuclear Deterrent works.

Okay, explain it to me. The principle is that no-one dares attack us because we'd respond. But with the Trident fleet and missiles we'd have, we are not capable of delivering an all-out response against Russia (the only possible enemy here) - all we can do is really, really piss them off.

Which wouldn't be clever.

The UK's nuclear deterrent only really made sense in the Cold War where there was one enemy, and only made sense when it was part of the US nuclear deterrent. It makes no sense now.

[url= http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-chocolate-teapot/ ]A good analysis here.[/url]

I did try to make it clear I was addressing your last sentence and your use of nationalism as a negative concept, so I simply gave a few examples where nationalism was a force for good for the people of those respective countries.

So back to the point at hand: is it OK for me to be a second class citizen based upon how I vote? Can we speculate on what wonders await me and my family in this new, fairer, two-tier Scotland? Will we be allowed to continue living where we do, or would the elite prefer we were all in one place where you can keep an eye on us? It might help your cause if you were to provide the No voters with some kind of identifying mark.

disclaimer: I don't make these comments with a 100% serious head on, but the Facebook posts of the Indy guy at work and his Yes campaign friends prevent me from saying it's 100% in jest. There is some real anger, bordering on hatred, towards those who don't want independence.

But with the Trident fleet and missiles we'd have, we are not capable of delivering an all-out response against Russia

What?

Now a complete failure to understand the capability of a Vanguard Class Submarine.

Each sub carries 40 x 475kt warheads. Even a single sub could make a huge mess. If 3 of the 4 subs were available then I think that would be more than an "all-out" response. To put things into context Hiroshima was 16kt.

Glasgow is now 58% Yes once you strip out the undecideds

If you strip out those that have decided to vote yes or no, the whole of Scotland is undecided.

Now a complete failure to understand the capability of a Vanguard Class Submarine.

I know the capability - as you said, 40 warheads. Russia has over 1000 land-based warheads, about 100 on subs, and another 200 or so on long-range bombers. 40 vs. 1300 isn't an all-out response, it's tickling a giant and getting swatted.

Read that analysis I linked to.

If you strip out those that have decided to vote yes or no, the whole of Scotland is undecided.

Well, yes, but that would be silly. Do I really need to explain how polling works?

You look at the number of people who say they'll vote Yes. You look at the number who say they'll vote No. If the Yes number is larger, then Yes is in the lead. A way of showing how far in the lead is found by stripping out the undecideds to show what kind of swing would be needed to change the result.