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There is no doubt in my mind that Salmond will suffer from the Churchill effect. "Aye ta for winning the war,now see ya!" The problem that will rumble on in the event of a no vote is that despite any claims of good bridge playing from them,the amount of anti-Westminster sentiment that the no campaign are building is significant. And that is among the home owning teachers I work with. I have asked the English pro union supporters on this thread to share with me on several occasions the positives that retaining the union offers,hell in a perfect world they would be examples used by the no campaign..Still waiting...Westminster have created an atmosphere in this campaign that will be a very,very long time fading.
For the record,I'm not a fan of Alex Salmond,however l feel the likes of thm etc do him a huge disservice by assuming this is just a power trip for him. He has devoted his life to the nationalist cause and this is his overriding focus.
Konabunny"The public are morons"
Sheesh,isn't it awful when people make up their own mind?
I think places like this are an example of the benefits of union. I have already said that give it 5 or 10 years, forums won't be Scottish enough for many. Too many topics like riding at Swinley or the Lakes, or politics that won't affect us. I enjoy hearing the views of a cross section of the UK and others further afield. We will likely see an STW.scot that would allow us to back slap each other about the unequalled quality of riding on offer, or discussions on the merits of the Forfar bridie. Life will change massively, not just the politicians we see on the television, but the papers we read and the programs we watch, websites we will congregate around. Sure, UK based media and views will be available but others have made it clear what the think of the BBC for example, while forgetting it is not bad. I wait with baited breath to see the neutrality of SBC news.
Life in the UK I really find is not that bad, in fact I find it on the whole pretty decent. There is a wealth of differing opinions, however I feel there is more linking us than seperating us. I find the "subjugation", "we are a doormat" stuff really tiresome.
Politically it has been stated that people will not forget Labour standing side by side with the Tories on currency union. The Lib Dems are already dead as are the Tories. These parties will flounder for a lengthy period following a yes vote. We have only one real choice. I worry about the poor judge of character of many fellow Scots. They vote for independence but will get a wolf in sheeps clothing, with a ready made blame figure if he does not get his way.
If the vote is no, then independence supporters always have the chance to do this again in a few years. The people with the most to worry about post Yes are No voting Scots. I hope that people do not decide to vote yes because we can't have a currency union. That would be like demanding a piece of your neighbours garden, then setting fire to your house when they refuse. I am not keen to be in that house when it burns.
athgray - Member
...They vote for independence but will get a wolf in sheeps clothing, with a ready made blame figure if he does not get his way...
We keep hearing allegations of this nature. How Salmond is going to be king of Scotland or dictator or suchlike.
I've been watching him for a while and haven't seen any imperial signs.
Is there any evidence for this, or are you simply repeating just another of the Project Fear slurs?
If the vote is no, then independence supporters always have the chance to do this again in a few years.
This is the third referendum on Scotland's constitutional status in 307 years, isn't it?
English pro union supporters on this thread
It'd be interesting to see some updated polling on this, purely rUK polling. Divided up into the respective regions (I say regions to include the different regions of England, and North and South Wales for that matter).
I have already said that give it 5 or 10 years, forums won't be Scottish enough for many
I'm trying to work out if you're being serious or not.
There are already people from all over the world on this forum - sure it's UK-based, but that's the internet for you. And especially in a website about trails and things that won't move after independence, why on earth would Scottish people want their own website?
Anyhow, I'm off to troll the US framebuilding forums 😉
I'd be interested to see how 'pro union' the electorate in the UK actually is - i think many would be surprised. Certainly, of all the people i know & have expressed a viewpoint it is overwhelmingly for Scotland to leave. In fact, i only know two people who are pro union & they are both Scots.
Ben,any good links for US framebuilders? I do likey gazing at rivendells etc.
OT, but does anyone has any good links for oil/gas import export data for the current UK?
And data on what would be the rUK capacity for importing would be, specifically from outside what is currently the UK?
One extra thing, I know the oil card is overplayed. But can anyone tell me what the total oil production of what would be an iScotland (on the most recent figures) as a % of the total consumption (per annum) of the EU.
I seem to remember seeing a figure somewhere between 1.5% and 4%. No idea where, or it's accuracy.
Ben,any good links for US framebuilders? I do likey gazing at rivendells etc.
For forums, there's:
http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f10/
http://www.bikeforums.net/forumdisplay.php/229-Framebuilders
http://forums.mtbr.com/frame-building/
Individual framebuilders there's lots, but I like this guy's work for a start:
http://www.tomiicycles.com
epicyclo, I have already posted evidence to that effect previously.
muddy. I am a pro union member of the UK electorate. Despite how it may appear here, so are a significant number of people living in Scotland.
I notice on several occasions that pro independence comments and literature like to portray the UK as England. It suits their cause to portray it that way.
Recent yes campaign literature asked the question, "What will become of the UK after independence?"
The conclusion was that it would be ok, however only mentioned England throughout, whilst showing a picture of the St George flag.
Are there yes and no heartlands in Scotland?
Or is it just purely down to choice?
From what i have seen, there is a bigger sense of dis-union south of the Border than in Scotland. How much of this is a sense of exasperation with the issue, & what it will mean in the future i don't know.
I doubt it would result in any serious movement to leave the Union though because - as has been mentioned before - Scotland really doesn't figure that highly in our day to day thoughts despite the claims of some that we are desperate to hold onto Scotland. Most are indifferent or leaning towards a 'you know where the door is, close it behind you on the way out' position.
I feel sorry for pro Union Scots, they appear to be caught between the rhetoric of the Nats & a rising sense of exasperation down South. I think the only way forward is to make a clean break now, stand or fall on your own feet & we shall do likewise.
OT, but does anyone has any good links for oil/gas import export data for the current UK?
Euan Mearns has loads of good stuff on energy on his blog.
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I feel sorry for pro Union Scots, they appear to be caught between the rhetoric of the Nats & a rising sense of exasperation down South.
I think also quite a few pro-Union Scots* also don't quite understand that the Union they love perhaps doesn't love them back. This is (I think) a spoof video but it gets the point across:
*And I would be pro-Union if the Union hadn't changed. We have a lot of shared history, Scotland used to proudly describe itself as North Britain. What's happened is not that Scotland is breaking away, it's that the nature of the Union has changed - the rise of the City and the death by a thousand cuts of the manufacturing base, the increasing move rightwards of all political parties, these things have moved the rest of the UK away from where Scotland was and is.
^ the problem is that it isn't just Britain that has changed, but the World, which is why there is likely to be a demoralising surprise for the yes campaign should they happen to succeed.
The comments to that video are quite enlightening - not. If those anti-English comments are anything to go by the sooner we dissolve the Union the better.
The comments to that video are quite enlightening - not. If those anti-English comments are anything to go by the sooner we dissolve the Union the better.
You must know that reading the comments on Youtube or any video site is a bad idea? 😉
[quote=konabunny ]The public are morons.
Isn't that what AS is relying on?
Those comments were like the Daily Mail cycling section! 😆
Indeed citing You tube comments as a reason for union disillusion - that is what you have suggested all along in these debates anyway iirc - is daft.
Was a lighthearted comment Junky, but my point remains. Scotland leaving the Union will in the long run be the best option for the Union. The continuing uncertainty and unrest that the Nats are determined to commit to in the event of a NO vote will not be conducive to the long term health of the UK. If the vote would put the issue to bed one way or another then that would be one thing, but the Nats aren't going to let it lie should they lose in September & for that i think it is best for the UK you go as soon as is practical.
Given the near 50/50 divide of the populous on the issue it is unlikely to go away whatever way the vote goes - be it an EU or Scots referendum
We have had referendum on both issue in the 70's and it has not gone away.
the Nats aren't going to let it lie should they lose in September
you have seen the Unionists in NI
Its not a nats or a Unionist thing IMHO its just the issue generates strong opinions
Those comments were like the Daily Mail cycling section!
Speaking of the DM, their leader today is interesting...
imnotverygood - Member
^ the problem is that it isn't just Britain that has changed, but the World, which is why there is likely to be a demoralising surprise for the yes campaign should they happen to succeed.
Aye, we're too stupid to run our country in a changing world, not like the noble elite running the UK who weren't caught out by a global financial crisis.
What's happened is not that Scotland is breaking away, it's that the nature of the Union has changed - the rise of the City and the death by a thousand cuts of the manufacturing base, the increasing move rightwards of all political parties, these things have moved the rest of the UK away from where Scotland was and is.
Is the independence issue a left/right question then? Scotland the socialist paradise struggling to emerge from the yoke of the evil Tories?
Re the 'rise of the City' you won't impact London's path post independence, but you'll damage your own. What do you think Edinburgh's economy is reliant on apart from tourism? All entities in the financial services sector are considering their response to independence in the context of re-domiciling, or de-risking in one way or another. For any insurance company, bank or investment manager the risk of being domiciled in a country that either can't control its own currency, or is tied to someone else's, will probably mean exit (or at the very least restricting services to the Scottish market alone).
How will Scotland as an independent nation rebuild its manufacturing base? Reliance on cheap oil, or expensive renewables? Do you think England will continue to buy renewable energy at well above market price from Scotland post independence?
bainbrge - Member
s the independence issue a left/right question then? Scotland the socialist paradise struggling to emerge from the yoke of the evil Tories?...
It's across the political board.
How will Scotland as an independent nation rebuild its manufacturing base
Probably in the same way the regions of England would if they had self determination.
Is the independence issue a left/right question then? Scotland the socialist paradise struggling to emerge from the yoke of the evil Tories?
For some it seems to be. Certainly on here anyway.
I reckon a strong centre right will emerge if they vote Yes.
How will Scotland as an independent nation rebuild its manufacturing base?
That is fantasy. It is too far gone to turn it back.
Do any Scots honestly believe they can start building ships again?
Rebuild your car plants? Last time I looked it was an Asda.
Rightly or wrongly the UK cannot turn back the clock and get back the major manufacturing base.
Serious question; how will Scotland (or the regions of England) better rebuild their manufacturing base under independence? How does HMG prevent the manufacturing industry from growing?
Scotland's old manufacturing base was heavy industry - that's not coming back. It's especially unlikely to come back if the lessons from Ineos Grangemouth have been learned by anyone with the capacity to invest. High tech industry maybe? Again not sure how HMG prevents (or indeed hinders in any way) Scotland from having such at present?
I really find it difficult to accept that independence is the solution to any of these issues.
We can't rebuild heavy industry, no. But that doesn't mean that the only things the UK can do to make money are banking and call centres. There's a satellite manufacturer just across the road from me here in Glasgow. Artist spaces are opening up all over. There are many more things the UK can do to make money than speculating.
The problem is at the moment everything is viewed through the prism of how it would affect "the City".
How does HMG prevent the manufacturing industry from growing?
It sucks all the money to London. Public transport in London gets £2000 per person per year - in the North-east, it's £2 per person per year. And that's just one example. Wages get a London weighting - an extra amount paid just because it's more expensive to live in London. Where does that money come from? And where does it go to? It inflates the London property bubble, for one.
Artist spaces are opening up all over.
It's hardly mass employment is it?
satellite manufacturer
The UK, including Englandshire, are currently doing quite well in the high tech specialist manufacturing.
The Silicon Fen and the F1/motorsport industry are 2 that spring to mind.
Isn't specialist manufacture what you do Ben? 🙂 Being in the UK doesn't seem to have held you back?
Not sure what magic wand will be waved by the SNP after Yes.
Public transport in London gets £2000 per person per year - in the North-east, it's £2 per person per year
Not this again!
If you are talking about the NE of England, then they have quite a good public transport system around Newcastle and it is even connected to the other principal "city" sunderland. Most of the NE is a pretty empty rural landscape where an extensive public transport system isn't feasible.
Isn't specialist manufacture what you do Ben? Being in the UK doesn't seem to have held you back?
Yup 😉
From a business point of view, I don't think independence would help at all, and may even cause harm for me because of how much I send south of the border. But I'm thinking more of what kind of country I want my daughter to grow up in.
bainbrge - Member
...I really find it difficult to accept that independence is the solution to any of these issues.
Why should we have to reinstate failed industries? Just provide an environment where new industries can flourish, whatever they may be, and whatever size they may be.
Independence gets us democracy. We can tweak the controls any way we like afterwards.
Just provide an environment where new industries can flourish, whatever they may be
Reduced corporation tax?
Doesn't sound much like a workers utopia.
Public transport in London gets £2000 per person per year - in the North-east, it's £2 per person per year
How does the per capita public transport investment balance between, say Edinburgh and Tayside look by way of comparison?
Public transport investment in Edinburgh is a fine example of Holyrood investing resource wisely. 🙂
I just hope they make better decisions when they have independence.
Speaking of the DM, their leader today is interesting...
Haven't seen it, what was the jist? The online front page had Salmond panicking!
Euan Mearns has loads of good stuff on energy on his blog.
Smart Ta. For that.
Is the independence issue a left/right question then? Scotland the socialist paradise struggling to emerge from the yoke of the evil Tories?
I think any country would object to having a govt they do not support ruling over them
I dont think it is a socialist paradise [ then again neither do you] but it is clearly NOT TORY/ as right wing as the shire/south east
Love you digging up the embra trams as an example of poor spending on public transport Winston dog...HS2 represent vfm? And we will see how the crossrail pans out as well.
Love you digging up the embra trams as an example of poor spending on public transport Winston dog...HS2 represent vfm? And we will see how the crossrail pans out as well.
Digging up? It hasn't even ran any services yet! 🙂
7 years for 9 miles of line at the cost of £1 billion.
Personally, I think HS2 is a waste of money but it appears there is no stopping it.
Crossrail is huge and already underway, but it seems like a sensible idea. However, it is massively complex, 73 miles with 26 miles of tunnels. So you would expect some problems and overruns.
Hardly the same as laying 9 miles of track on top of existing roads. I wasn't sure what benefits it's really going to offer as it doesn't appear to increase capacity. Can't be nice to cycle on those routes either!
Edinburgh Tram - cost per mile, £125 million
New build Motorway - cpm, £35 million
Large Hadron Collider - cpm, £150 million
😆
duckman - Member
For the record,I'm not a fan of Alex Salmond,however l feel the likes of thm etc do him a huge disservice by assuming this is just a power trip for him. He has devoted his life to the nationalist cause and this is his overriding focus.
Who is doing who a disservice? Here is a guy who has devoted his life to the cause and yet when the moment arises the overriding conclusion is that he simply has not done his homework properly. Either that or he has been promoting an elaborate hoax all along. [b]That is a disservice to all of us [/b]since it affects the Scots and the rUK. As such, and without evidence to the contrary it is only possible to conclude that, "he has devoted his life to satisfying his own ego trip and this is his overriding focus."
If people want to propose the idea that he is the most able politician in the UK or the canniest, then they must accept the fallout when this is shown to be a mirage, especially when he is being outplayed by those who they normally choose to ridicule. Blimey a history grad explaining the basics of how monetary system works to an economist from Scotland's finest University. It's truly embarassing.
OOI, what %age of UK and Scottish GDP would be represented by financial services (assuming that banks etc continue to use Scotland as their country of domicile)?
How can anyone argue that they are waiting for the No campaign to explain why Scotland would be better. Are they myopic or do they simply choose not to read for convenience. Even this week, the HM Treasury explains quite clearly and up front why and how the sterling union for the whole UK has been one of the most successfully in history. That is what on offer, be part of a system that has proven more successful and more flexible than the alternatives or not. If people chose to ignore this very simple message, then more fool them. But please let's not pretend that no arguments are being out given as to why NO gives Scots a better deal,
winston_dog - Member
"Just provide an environment where new industries can flourish, whatever they may be"
Reduced corporation tax?Doesn't sound much like a workers utopia.
Not sure how you managed to get that from my answer. Is that what they call a red herring?
As for a utopia, one where our voting decision is likely to have some effect is more like one than the pseudo democracy we currently inhabit, and to which you are welcome. See? We'll both be happy...
[quote=bencooper ]We can't rebuild heavy industry, no. But that doesn't mean that the only things the UK can do to make money are banking and call centres.
[quote=bencooper ]From a business point of view, I don't think independence would help at all
So you admit that independence wouldn't improve things as far as business is concerned, despite that being what you think will make up for the loss of the financial sector (you appear to acknowledge you'll lose some of that). How exactly do you think the economy is going to go post independence? Are things going to become more favourable to business relative to rUK by the time oil revenues start to tail off?
As a point of interest the minority SNP government tried to stop the tram project in 07 with a saving of 1.1billion they were defeated by a coalition of Conservative, Labour and Libdems.
[quote=epicyclo ]As for a utopia, one where our voting decision is likely to have some effect is more like one than the pseudo democracy we currently inhabit, and to which you are welcome.
Yes, because clearly when people are struggling for money the thing which concerns them most is how much influence their vote had on the decisions which are made.
Yes, because clearly when people are struggling for money the thing which concerns them most is how much influence their vote had on the decisions which are made.
Better to be able to choose a party and know your vote will have some influence on the result that being stuck with the economic policy of a government that your vote made no difference to.
Much easier to blame hate figures like Mrs T. What happened in the 1970s? The weakening manufacturing base was hit by the appreciation of sterling with NS Oil. A double whammy that magically gets blamed on one person. And then, in response, Scotland benefits from higher regional policies/spending - hence the spending per head data - but this is all conveniently forgotten.
An independent Scotland will be more exposed to NS oil than now. And that exposure to a volatile commodity is meant to create a better environment for business??? Pull the other one, wee eck. At least this will be compensated by the bribe of lower corporation tax.
Better to be able to choose a party and know your vote will have some influence on the result that being stuck with the economic policy of a government that your vote made no difference to.
Whereas the reality, you will be stuck with an economic policy of a government in which you have zero representation. Be careful what you wish for.
Not sure how you managed to get that from my answer. Is that what they call a red herring?
epicyclo - How else would you "provide an environment where new industries can flourish "? What can you actually do apart from reduce taxation?
As a point of interest the minority SNP government tried to stop the tram project in 07 with a saving of 1.1billion they were defeated by a coalition of Conservative, Labour and Libdems.
That's interesting. Are you suggesting that the vast majority of MP's in Holyroyd are just as useless as the ones in Westminster? Doesn't look good for independence!
teamhurtmore - Member
...Whereas the reality, you will be stuck with an economic policy of a government in which you have zero representation. Be careful what you wish for.
That's what we have at the moment and it's not what we wish for.
And if the UK economic recovery is so wonderful, why are we persecuting the poor (eg the bedroom tax) and flogging off so much public infrastructure? The UK govt is behaving very like a business trying to avoid bankruptcy, right down to the reassuring PR.
So you admit that independence wouldn't improve things as far as business is concerned
As far as [u]my[/u] business is concerned 😉
It's not about business, it's not about money, it's not about the pound or Cameron or Salmond - it's about the next 20, 50, 100 years, and whether Scotland would be better continuing as part of the UK or not.
Everyone knows that Scotland would do fine after independence - that's not even in doubt - all this is about is how the transition is made, and these things are always a little messy.
it's about the next 20, 50, 100 years,
Ben - It should be and it may be for you. But it isn't. Most people don't look beyond a couple of years max. Politicians, particularly at cabinet level, don't see beyond the duration of the time in a post.
Unless all those Scottish politicians are a completely different breed from the UK ones........
Very selective thm,spent as bit of time making that one up did you? Rather than turn it around,l ask you again, why would scotland be better off? Let's use Winston " some of my best friends are porridge wogs" dogs example; transport...now tell me how much benefit MY country will get from the crossrail and HS2...both funded equally by scots.Suggesting that anybody who fails to accept the no argument is failing to read is quite frankly bullpoo,and wow,despite my interest in how things have developed as both a politics and history teacher I missed all the positives coming from rUK.
Explain the benefits of HS2 cutting commuting times to the 16 people killed or seriously injured on the A9 last year,NOT chosen for UK government for improvement. Suggesting the orchestrated cross party refusal to allow Scotland to share currency is an example of the benefits of union and you would have to be myopic not to see it. What happened to your earlier assertations that that was rUK playing hardball/outflanking AS etc,When did it become an assertation of the benefits of the union? Honestly,If this is the no telling us the benefits,what are the negatives?
Can't believe you think that was an attempt to convince us of the sound reasons for keeping a union. Actually I don't think you do,especially as your position has changed over the thread. Funny though.
Let's use Winston " some of my best friends are porridge wogs*" dogs example; transport.
It wasn't my example. It was that well known NO voter Ben Cooper.
Just saying like.
*They really are.
Sorry to disappoint duckman (edit, excuse the autospell there) but we had a power cut down south.
The reality is the benefits are being outlined as are the follies of what is being proposed.
You have said that nothing is being proposed by NO that explains why Scotland will be better off by voting NO. That is clearly falsifiable. You just have to be bothered to read. Try it.
FWIW, I am not in favour of HS2, certainly not at the moment.
It was you mentioned that much maligned conservative administration decision, the tram wasn't it? A billion for 7 miles will be a bargain if the time to dig the first tunnel in London is anything to go by. You do realize your beloved North East becomes the new Scotland if we win the vote ..sleep tight! 😀
Ah..thm,so the whole "you will lose this" threats that has been the main point of the no campaign are actually the BENEFITS of union are they? Trying to suggest seeing them as threats is down to a lack of comprehension is a good one by the way. Must be a lot of poor readers posting on this thread...
now tell me how much benefit MY country will get from the crossrail and HS2..
This is a flawed argument. Currently you are a member of the UK. It is supposed to be of benefit to the whole of the UK. If it is a totally different argument.
What will the residents of Shetland get from the Edinburgh tram system? They would definitively prefer that money to of been spent on the A9. I think they were also a separate country until 1707? Are they going to separate as well?
Any extension of Hs2 to GLASGOW/ Edinburgh post No vote will be funded by the whole UK, post Yes vote it will 100% funded By Scotland 😉
If Hs2 happens only a no vote will see it ever crossing the border
your beloved North East becomes the new Scotland if we win the vote
Mate I live in Kent!
Besides the NE was rogered by the Tories, worse than Scotland ever got it. Probably only Merseyside suffered worse. IMHO.
Isn't transport predominately devolved?
Nice one Winston dog...we are UK citizens so hs2 is to all of our benefit,yet in the same post you try to use the trams as an example of not helping Shetland.Choose..
At least the trams are in the same country. BTW 1468 since scotland was sold Shetland. Are you going to learn French as they have as much claim as Norway does on Shetland.
Hs2 will have to be paid for by scotland in the event of a yes vote...
Aha! That will be one of those benefits you have to be myopic to miss.
Nice one Winston dog...we are UK citizens so hs2 is to all of our benefit,yet in the same post you try to use the trams as an example of not helping Shetland.Choose.
You kind of missed the point I was trying to make.......
Confused by the news report that no UK government will 'allow' Scotland to use the pound..? Okay - imagine the UK is the husband, and Scotland is the wife. She tells him it's been good but...she's no longer happy and she's thinking about leaving the marriage. He's not happy. He tells her she'll miss the joint incomes (the Barnet fomula) along with that new security fence they just built around their house (Trident)...the one she put alot of her savings into. And she'll be poor - she'll be lucky to be shopping in Premark if she tries to go it alone. She tells him she's still thinkin about leaving.
He's not happy. He appeals to their friends (other countries) to warn her how bad things will be if she leaves him. He gets his pals who run the local pub (other members of the EU) to tell her that she won't be allowed in if she's a single girl... He asks her family and friends from all over the country to phone her and tell her that he loves her...that he doesn't want her to go. She's still serious about this. It's okay though, she explains, she's got a job (assets) she'll pay for half the mortgage (the national debt) if she can still use the joint bank account (the pound). UK lashes out - all these threats and she still thinks she can go it alone..! "No way!" he says. He tells her to get her own account (currency).
She points out that if they both use the same bank account they can pay off the mortgage together with as little hassle as possible. She reminds him the account (the pound) is a joint one - meaning it's her account too. He throws this in her face. Tells her that no matter how much debt she pays, she's still not getting to use the joint bank account. And so it goes. Later in the year, the UK will threaten to keep the bairns if she leaves him. Alas no divorce is without stress and strife. Scotland, like every other wife that's decided to go it alone...will probably struggle to begin with...but will eventually succeed on her own merits and not have to blame the total fud she married in the first place.
Most people in Scotland would vote for a devo max arrangement if it were on offer. IIRC having this on the ballot was not popular by either side. We now have a winner takes all scenario. I like to think that more powersmay be on the table post no. If we have decades of oil wealth why would a UK government rape, plunder and pillage to a degree that may see it face the same thing in 5 years? People can vote another majority SNP government at Holyrood again if they wish.
The yes camp have been ramping up their own "project fear" on voting no and it's consequences. In fact Nicola Stugeon oozed fear from every pore during her speech at the SNP conference.
If people in Scotland actually want a devo max solution, then voting no is the only way this could possibly happen.
As stated, anyone that actually want devo max, be careful what you vote for.
Suffered worse than Wales? As Ben Cooper says its not about money etc but about the right to make your own decisions. If we, the Welsh, ever had the opportunity I would vote to go whatever the consequences at least then we would be treated as the English colony we are at the moment.
Gav we have done this,if you are anti union you are in an abusive relationship. If you are pro then if you don't look past the abuse to the housekeeping then you are thick.
Shetland was not sold to Scotland as far as I am aware. Was given temporarily to Scotland as security whilst a dowry could be raised for the marriage of the Danish princess to Scotlands king. She could not have been a looker as the dowry was not forthcoming. Don't forget either that Orkney was also part of the deal. If only Denmark/Norway could have known the value of oil reserves at that time. I reckon the dowry may have been stumped up pretty quickly.
She points out that if they both use the same bank account they can pay off the mortgage together with as little hassle as possible. She reminds him the account (the pound) is a joint one - meaning it's her account too. He throws this in her face. Tells her that no matter how much debt she pays, she's still not getting to use the joint bank account. And so it goes. Later in the year, the UK will threaten to keep the bairns if she leaves him
I had to re-read this little analogy & I'm still not sure what it is about. Are you suggesting that in the aftermath of a divorce you would expect to keep a joint bank account? I don't think I have ever heard of a divorce with those sort of conditions.
gavstorie - MemberConfused by the news report that no UK government will 'allow' Scotland to use the pound..? Okay - imagine the UK is the husband, and Scotland is the wife.
...
Alas no divorce is without stress and strife. Scotland, like every other wife that's decided to go it alone...will probably struggle to begin with...[b]but will eventually succeed on her own merits and not have to blame the total fud she married in the first place.[/b]
Did you just post somebody's post from facebook as if you'd written it yourself?
Anyway, the total fud, sorry, England, Wales and NI 🙄 has to keep a joint account open with his ex-wife does he? Riiight. Chinny ****ing reckon on that one.
I would not pay too much heed to the analogy. It is a really s***e one. You could as easily turn it into a worried husband unsure how to feel about his schizophenic wifes actions.
[quote=duckman ]Nice one Winston dog...we are UK citizens so hs2 is to all of our benefit,yet in the same post you try to use the trams as an example of not helping Shetland.Choose..
At least the trams are in the same country.
At least residents of Scotland get funding under Barnett relating to Crossrail and HS2, unlike rseidents of Shetland who have to pay for Edinburgh's tram, but get nothing in return. So the answer to your question of what Scottish residents get from Crossrail/HS2, the answer is Barnett (and that you don't actually pay anything towards it - the money you pay goes back to Scotland under that). This has of course been discussed before...
Right you are athgray terrible lack of foresight from those live for today norwegians . Theyll never end up with a massive oil fund .
Aracer,
as much as I am tempted by your example,and am enjoying the sparring on this thread,I will never debate anything on STW with you.
I am happy that North Sea oil in the UK sector has helped a large number of people a little bit, than a select few with an oil fund. My charitable spirit I suppose.
I am happy that North Sea oil in the UK sector has helped a large number of people a little bit, than a select few with an oil fund. My charitable spirit I suppose.
Um. That's why the UK (no oil fund) got a few years of low taxes for the rich, whereas Norway (oil fund) has one of the highest standards of living and happiness, and every citizen is a dollar millionaire?
Yeah, they were really daft to invest all that money.
bencooper - Member
Um. That's why the UK (no oil fund) got a few years of low taxes for the rich, whereas Norway (oil fund) has one of the highest standards of living and happiness, and every citizen is a dollar millionaire?Yeah, they were really daft to invest all that money.
The oil fund is a great idea, and we should do the same with the shale gas if we do extract it.
What do you mean about low taxes for the rich? When and compared to where?