[Closed] Osbourne says no to currency union.

How do they "lose more jobs than they create"?

This book gives quite a good explanation of how military spending can be totally counterproductive in actually making people better off. For example spending on the SA80 rather than just buying a gun that worked.

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2006/jan/07/highereducation.news

BAE is kept alive by building RN warships, the UK will not give that work to a Foreign country. That is not for debate. The yard will close. Loss of a lot of jobs.

I think the MOD has also said this to be the case. Although I'd also expect short to maybe medium term that some ships would be built in an iScotland.

How do they "lose more jobs than they create"?

BAE is kept alive by building RN warships

you really mean that commercially-sustainable jobs were taxed out of existence so that the transnational arms company BAe could keep employing a few people.

I am not really debating the "military-industrial complex".

I was simply highlighting that there are a large number of public sector jobs and connected jobs that will be lost in an iScotland. Many of these are well paid, secure and with good pensions.

FWIW I would much prefer to live in a World without nuclear weapons or any significant military spending. I agree that if we diverted the military spending into more productive areas then things would be a lot better. However, that isn't going to happen anytime soon.

BAE is kept alive by building RN warships, the UK will not give that work to a Foreign country. That is not for debate. The yard will close. Loss of a lot of jobs.

You don't create jobs by having the government employ more people.

A lot of left wing politicians would disagree with you there. AS included.

bencooper - Member
Whereas Osborne wants us to take a share of the debt, but not a share of the assets.

Is this one of those things that if you say it enough times, people believe it's true. A currency is not and cannot (by definition) be an asset. Strictly speaking it is a liability but that is becoming pedantic. AS will be telling us next that deposits in a bank are an asset!!!!

The worrying bit for me is what happens after a No vote. It won't be devo max. It won't even be business as usual. It'll be worse.

And the more wee eck pushes the worse it will get.

I think there are a lot of people who like Scotland, are supporters of higher levels of devolution, and dissatisfied with aspects of Westminster, but are now hoping that wee eck is completely crushed and that the notion gets a bloody nose. That is a great pity, but is a natural outcome of AS's constant BS, threats and posturing.

teamhurtmore - Member

A currency is not and cannot (by definition) be an asset.

Did we not have this conversation before? It's a textbook intangible asset. And of course asset has a usage outside of financial reporting. You can only make the "currency is not an asset" argument by using an artificially narrow definition.

If sterling isn't an asset, how do you fancy starting over tomorrow with the Cameronian Drogna?

grum - Member

It's just stooping to their level when you make unsubstantiated claims as if they are undisputed facts.

As I say, I don't believe it's unsubstantiated. For example, when you look at the national debt figures and see that Scotland's share is less than a population split, let alone a GNP-split, it's hard not to believe that Scotland subsidises the RUK. (*)

And that's OK! Rich bits should support poor bits, that's the only way countries can work, or any group of people bigger than about 3. I just don't feel like being given a hard time for it or being told it's the other way round. And it always feels weird to me that people who're against independence seem so keen to fuel that pro-independence sentiment.

But I guess that's just back to the failure to make a positive case for the union. In an attempt to tell us we can't afford independence, inevitably you have to run down the positive contribution Scotland makes.

(*) Caveat- these figures don't run up to the present day, so I won't make claims for exactly how things stand now. But IMO there's basically no chance that the situation's reversed since the end of the dataset, the numbers are too big.

bencooper - Member
Not as much as subsidising the Book of Dreams.
At the moment Scotland subsidises the rest of the UK - we contribute 9.9% of the taxes but get back 9.2% of the spending.

Have you got a source for that? I'm genuinely interested as the last figures i saw (for mid-2000s) had it as Scotland gaining £332 net per head

I just don't feel like being given a hard time for it or being told it's the other way round.

Not many have given you a hard time though. Most people seem to agree that it's not really a valid argument and the figures can be used to show different things.

I am not really debating the "military-industrial complex".

I was simply highlighting that there are a large number of public sector jobs and connected jobs that will be lost in an iScotland. Many of these are well paid, secure and with good pensions.

The military-industrial complex doesn't create wealth, it just captures it. Your suggestion that its disappearance in an independent Scotland will result in net job losses doesn't stack up: it won't disappear and if it did, it would be good news for the genuine economy.

konabunny - I don't think your Thatcherism will be very popular in iScotland.

winston_dog - Member

You don't create jobs by having the government employ more people.

A lot of left wing politicians would disagree with you there. AS included.

Must be a Scottish thing….

[img] [/img]

😉

and the money for those jobs comes from taxes paid by the less comfortable, less secure and worse-pensioned private sector!

The majority of income tax is paid by the VERY well off so your accounting does not stack up.
Even if this argument was true we should drag everyone up not try and have everyone work for the minimum wage with no pension.

The military-industrial complex doesn't create wealth, it just captures it.

Re the actual issue
Personally I would ignore the posturing on both sides as they are largely saying what they HOPE will occur afterwards - or possibly trying to make scare stories to put people off voting YES or perhaps giving an overly optimistic view to get them to vote YES. Until the hard haggling begins no one knows what will occur

Double post.

Did we not have this conversation before? It's a textbook intangible asset. And of course asset has a usage outside of financial reporting. You can only make the "currency is not an asset" argument by using an artificially narrow definition.

Yes. It isn't. Maybe, if you want to be sloppy with language. Not true, it can only be done by getting the definition deliberately wrong. But hey, the book of dreams is full of that.

Lost of people think that bank deposits are an asset. Look it's money that we have and can use. Er, no they are liabilities pure and simple. Sloppy usage and constant misuse will not change basic facts.

you know what..

living in Scotland is pretty good.. Especially for mountain bikers with our land access laws..

Business wise it's pretty good as well.. Reduced or zero business rates for SME.. Thats not a bad deal..

Health wise, we don't pay for prescriptions and Education wise.. our kids don't have to pay to get into a university..

Our way of thinking is pretty good I'd say... But it could be so much better.. Independence is the only way that it can get better though..

EU in 18 months after a yes vote? No problem.
The Pound ? either have a currency union with the UK pound or have our own Scottish pound which is tied at a 1-1 exchange rate with the UK pound.. Scottish businesses can take either currency and then bank it.. Foreign UK businesses can pay in UK pounds and this can be converted at the the bank.. It's really not rocket science
Border controls.. won't need them as we will be in the EU
Passports. I'm quite happy to have a Scottish one

The best thing about independence is getting rid of the Westminster boys club.. It's a decrepit, failing system that needs to be overhauled... House of lords should be converted to an old folks home..

Business wise it's pretty good as well.. Reduced or zero business rates for SME.. Thats not a bad deal..

Health wise, we don't pay for prescriptions and Education wise.. our kids don't have to pay to get into a university..

Zero rates - where does the LA get it's funding?

Prescriptions - Tooth fairy provide them then? Or does the drugs company donate them to Scotland?

In what way is it not an intangible asset? 😕 I had a look, last time i asked you just didn't answer...

Zero rates - where does the LA get it's funding?

Prescriptions - Tooth fairy provide them then? Or does the drugs company donate them to Scotland?

LA gets its funding from the Scottish Parliament which gets its pocket money from the UK government which gets paid by the people of Scotland..

Same goes for prescriptions and university places...

Oh... we also just scrapped the bedroom tax.. 🙂

which gets paid by the people of Scotland.

So not free then?

Border controls.. won't need them as we will be in the EU

Excpet that Spain will veto you due to the Catalunya question.

The Pound ? either have a currency union with the UK pound or have our own Scottish pound which is tied at a 1-1 exchange rate with the UK pound..

(1) it's a liability
(2) it's real not intangible

So it's a double fail. Admittedly, the idea of it being an asset has a nice ring to it which is precious why [s]liars[/s] politicians use the tactic all the time.

So not free then?

Oh good grief. No, not free, the way the NHS, defence, roads etc are not free. Free at the point of use, to those who need them.

So not free then?

lol.. really... is that the best you can come up with?

Excpet that Spain will veto you due to the Catalunya question.

Doubt it... They are making noises but thats just to keep face.. When it comes to D-Day.. I would put money on them ok'ing it... Even if it was to just stick the fingers up to the UK because of Gibraltar

Cameron would love it if Scotland voted yes - he just doesn't want to be in charge when it happens.

OK, so humour me please. Explain how this parity is fixed and remains fixed between two economies moving relative to each other.

It's called Pegging.. happens all the time.. See this link for brief details..

http://www.currencysolutions.co.uk/euro/why-are-some-currencies-pegged-to-the-euro-exchange-rate

Even if it was to just stick the fingers up to the UK because of Gibraltar

Christ on a bike! This just demonstrates that a lot of the Yes thing is the heart ruling the head. All emotional.

Why would the UK be upset if iScotland joined the EU?

What is more important to Spain? Pissing the UK off or keeping Catalunya?

Christ on a bike! This just demonstrates that a lot of the Yes thing is the heart ruling the head. All emotional.

Why would the UK be upset if iScotland joined the EU?

What is more important to Spain? Pissing the UK off or keeping Catalunya?

Pissing off the UK is quite high on their list of priorities these days..

What is more important to Spain?

Plus the legal realities scotland and catalunya face are now different, Scotland negotiated a legally binding vote. The Catalans haven't done that, so they are on to plumbs until they do really.

It may be but how would Scotland joining the EU piss the UK off?

It has been observed by various commentators how much the No campaign is like an abusive husband.

"Please don't go, I love you. You'll never cope on your own. Think of all the history we have together. If you go I'll make your life hell. I love you. You need me. You think your new friends will love you as much as I do? You're so emotional."

But I guess that's just back to the failure to make a positive case for the union. In an attempt to tell us we can't afford independence, inevitably you have to run down the positive contribution Scotland makes.

But you can't afford independence - that's the whole point and there's no use trying to claim otherwise or claiming anyone who uses this as an argument in anti Scotland. The 'wish list' just doesn't stack up, simple as.

The only way for Scotland to become independent is to borrow money - huge vast sums of money the like of which will simply stagger you. You'll need at least the following:

A Scottish military, to fulfill your UN or NATO obligations (yes regardless of you views on this, it is required).

A full new currency system and all that entails.

To take on a portion of the UK debt, debt which you have helped to build so you should still pay for.

A full new welfare, tax, pensions, system.

A new or adapted health service.

A brace of embassies around the world.

To pay your subsidy to the EU (if you join) which would not be subject to the same EU rebate the UK currently enjoys.

A raft of new government, ministers, departments and agencies.

There's loads more but obviously I can't go on listing or we'd be here all day.

Who do you think will pay for the above? Now can you see why Alex Salmond is so keen to say "Yes we want to be an independent country, but yes UK we'd like to use your x,y,z etc" because clearly independence is a dream, which when you look at the actual figures just doesn't stack up.

A Scottish military, to fulfill your UN or NATO obligations (yes regardless of you views on this, it is required).

Had a look at how many military assets are based in Scotland? We'll inherit a share of the UK's military.

A new or adapted health service.

Like NHS Scotland, which is already independent of NHS England?

To pay your subsidy to the EU (if you join) which would not be subject to the same EU rebate the UK currently enjoys.

The Westminster government already doesn't pass on the Scottish share of the rebate to Scotland.

A raft of new government, ministers, departments and agencies.

Many of which we've already got (independent legal system, health system, schools system etc), others will be far smaller and simpler than the UK's. Ever seen the size of the New Zealand Department of Defence building?

But you can't afford independence

We can't afford to not be independent...

There will be costs.. everyone is aware of that but it's not like Scotland has just turned up, pitched a tent and decided to form a new country from scratch..

Scotland will have a bigger national budget than it currently has.. That's where the money is going to come from.

It may be but how would Scotland joining the EU piss the UK off?

Why is it that England seems to own 100% of everything? 😀

We've got our 9% stake in the EU membership too.

It's called Pegging.. happens all the time.. See this link for brief details..

http://www.currencysolutions.co.uk/euro/why-are-some-currencies-pegged-to-the-euro-exchange-rate
br />

We'll inherit a share of the UK's military.

That share has nothing to do with where the assets are currently based.

The Westminster government already doesn't pass on the Scottish share of the rebate to Scotland.

Those nasty English picking on the Scots again. Pinching all your money to pay for the London Underground.

Ever seen the size of the New Zealand Department of Defence building?

Yours will need to be bigger than that to look after all the military personnel you seem to want now. I don't believe NZ has any obligation to NATO or similar sized organisation?

rebel12 - Member

As soon as the first proxy government(aka scottish labour) is voted into the scottish parliament, post no vote, all that will disappear to become inline with England anyway.

Why is it that England seems to own 100% of everything?

We're a colony. England (or, more specifically, London) is the centre of the empire, bountifully handing out it's largesse to the regions, and we should be grateful for what we get.

At least that's the opinion of my English father-in-law (lives in Scotland, voting Yes).

if scotland needs to apply for reentry so will rUK, as they are also agreeing to a change in their national borders.

That isn't actually true.

winston_dog - Member
if scotland needs to apply for reentry so will rUK, as they are also agreeing to a change in their national borders.
That isn't actually true.

you don't know that, as the uk government refuse to entertain the question. There is no precident for a member state amicably spliting.

It's about as true as you telling us we'll be frozen out of europe, which is ridiculous.

We've got our 9% stake in the EU membership too.

Nope, you really haven't!

I'm confused Winston...A page ago you were saying that none of the military were staying. Now you are saying there will be so many staying we can't afford them all? What is a poor confused "Jock" like me meant to think?
As an aside, the likes of W-D fly into debates on the indy vote (he even started a thread on the use of the word Jock) What are you all so worried about? A lot of contributers in this thread make their distain for Scotland so obvious that the abusive husband comparison, albeit in poor taste,has it nailed. I really am curious as to why there is so much venom.

Funny to see wee eck's sidekick's desperate attempts to hide behind the cliches of bullying and intimidation again ithis morning.

So the SNP believes it is right and proper to lie to the population of Scotland. When the EU, the BOE, and senior politicians from all major parties point out the errors in what they are saying (the diplomatic description of bare faced lies) and explain the reality of the issues under consideration, it becomes bullying and intimidation.

Apparently some people fall for this BS.

They need a few teachers in there who know only too well how often the bullies are the ones who are crying bully themselves!!! The SNP is a prime example.

[OK, so humour me please. Explain how this parity is fixed and remains fixed between two economies moving relative to each other.

It's called Pegging.. happens all the time.. See this link for brief details..

http://www.currencysolutions.co.uk/euro/why-are-some-currencies-pegged-to-the-euro-exchange-rate
]
Pegging .... happens all the time ... and has been instrumental in many financial disasters..... as a solution it sound simple however the risks of pegging to a floating currency are very significant

ninfan - Member
We've got our 9% stake in the EU membership too.
Nope, you really haven't!

plus the guy all but admits it would be ridiculous for scotland not to be entered into europe, with our MEPs doubled. and also that rUKs voting powers and MEPs would also increase as a result(relative to current minus the scottish continignent.).

you telling us we'll be frozen out of europe

I'm not Spain is.

AFAIK the EU have stated that the UK will not have to reapply if SCotland leaves.

plus the guy all but admits it would be ridiculous for scotland not to be entered into europe, with our MEPs doubled. and also that rUKs voting powers and MEPs would also increase as a result(relative to current minus the scottish continignent.).

seosamh77 - Member

We've got our 9% stake in the EU membership too.

What does that even mean? We seem to be on the same side but this almost made my head pop.

rebel12 - Member

But you can't afford independence - that's the whole point and there's no use trying to claim otherwise or claiming anyone who uses this as an argument in anti Scotland. The 'wish list' just doesn't stack up, simple as.

I guess this is exactly the sort of thing Grum doesn't want me to rise to as it's too obviously rubbish to even bother shooting down?

So is this but I can't resist-

cranberry - Member
The funny thing is that if the EU let them in they will be forced to take the Euro

[i]everyone[/i] knows this is mince, but it's the unsinkable rubber duck of Project Fear, people keep repeating it and if you repeat things often enough they mysteriously become accepted facts. How to join the EU without joining the euro- 1) agree convergence criteria, 2) don't converge. Already openly established policy for EU members.

That man in the video is extremely clever. He knew all the answers and didn't get political once. Good on him.
Anyway. So if Scotland wants the pound it means they don't want to join Europe.
But they do seem to want to join Europe which means taking the euro..
Am I right? Has that solved it?

people keep repeating it and if you repeat things often enough they mysteriously become accepted facts

The story for both sides of the fence here.

zippykona - Member

But they do seem to want to join Europe which means taking the euro..

Hah, couldn't have timed that better eh 😆 Cheers!

I'm confused Winston...A page ago you were saying that none of the military were staying.

I didn't. I just said a lot of jobs would be lost with the reduction in the amount of military assets and personnel.

Now you are saying there will be so many staying we can't afford them all?

Not sure where I said that either?

(he even started a thread on the use of the word Jock)

So what? That was a genuine question in response to another thread where someone got flamed for using it and he was surprised it had upset so many people. I was surprised how many sensitive souls there was. Nowt to do with independence.

distain for Scotland

Absolutely not. Just because I think the "Yes" voters are deluded doesn't mean I think less of Scotland.
I lived there for six years and loved a lot of it. What I didn't like was a distinct minority that had an irrational dislike of the English and blamed "them" for loads of things.
I still work a lot up there and with a lot of [s]Jocks[/s] Scots in other places.

North wind, thanks ,I think.
If I was Scots I'd want my own country. Fair play and all that but I can see Scotland being one of those people who buy a banger and then keep knocking on your door every time it won't start.

people keep repeating it and if you repeat things often enough they mysteriously become accepted facts.

😀 You are learning my friend!!!! 😉

Talking of friends.....

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-25-years-of-economic-misery-1-3295969?WT.mc_id=Outbrain_text&obref=obinsite

So who was that guy in the video, who did he represent?
If he was French would it be more believable?

Dr Jo Eric Khushal Murkens

[url= http://www.lse.ac.uk/collections/law/staff/jo-murkens.htm ]Prof from the LSE[/url]

So he says:
No automatic EU membership.
If Scotland join then they must take the Euro.
They also must sign up to Schengen, which means there will need to be Border Controls between Scotland and England.

But what would he know?

Dear Nicola, bless her, out threatening technical default again today. She does a great impression of someone who has no idea about how global financial markets work or of Scotlands on-going borrowing needs. And folk want people like her running an independent country!!!!!

Northwind - Member

What does that even mean? We seem to be on the same side but this almost made my head pop.

A lot of contributers in this thread make their distain for Scotland so obvious that the abusive husband comparison, albeit in poor taste,has it nailed. I really am curious as to why there is so much venom

There's no venom intended, any jokes or comments from my side are tongue in cheek. Take it how you want though? It's just a lot of people on here seem to slate anyone putting forward a reasoned argument of why independence is a bad idea as somehow 'having a dig at the poor Scots'. Interpret this as you will.

rebel12 - Member

But you can't afford independence - that's the whole point and there's no use trying to claim otherwise or claiming anyone who uses this as an argument in anti Scotland. The 'wish list' just doesn't stack up, simple as.

I guess this is exactly the sort of thing Grum doesn't want me to rise to as it's too obviously rubbish to even bother shooting down?

Why is it rubbish, because it doesn't fit with your view of things? Do you really believe all the bulls**t spouted in the white paper? If this is wrong please enlighten us all as to where the money will come from to fullfil all the promises on the wishlist. I'm open ears 🙂

She does a great impression of someone who has no idea about how global financial markets work

I think there is little venom towards Scotland or Scots but a lot (correctly IMO) directed towards wee eck's BS (and Sturgeon's). Strip them away and have a reasonable discussion about devolving more power to Holyrood and it would be a flier IMO. Sadly, the wrong captain leading the wrong arguments resulting in the wrong conclusion. Scotland deserves much better than AS.

Rebel12 I don't know if you've read any of the other numerous threads on the subject of the referendum, but most of the Yes are posting opinion, or facts without any venom or ridicule or anything else unwanted. We all know that the white paper is an SNP manifesto rather than a defined and binding blue print. We all know that things cant and wont change over night and we also know that things being said now by both parties will change as soon as the vote happens.

As far as I can tell you've stormed in to this thread with a load of unsubstantiated, vitriol and venom. It does indeed come across as having a dig, intended or not.

I can't be arsed going through the whole debate that we've already had several times before again, but as I, and many other people have said, Scotland can afford to be independent, wont turn into a 3rd world country and will be able to afford the things in the white paper due to cuts, savings, taxes and policy that we will have control of.

Spending billions on nuclear weapons and fancy fighter jets while people need food banks - it's the kind of thing we used to complain about African dictators doing,

This and a hundred other posts like it. This is why many sensible people (i.e. not Braveheart clad extremists) want independence. So we don't p1ss away money on crap no-one wants or needs in this Century (not just military spending, but lots of examples of that ilk) but on improving the country and the society we live in.

Couple of sensible posts there

Scotland deserves much better than AS.

Perhaps. But a lot of Scots voted for him, and he's probably the most capable politician in the UK at the moment.

But that's okay - after independence we can vote him out if someone better comes along. That's the nice thing about independence - it'll be up to us.

There's no venom intended, any jokes or comments from my side are tongue in cheek. Take it how you want though? It's just a lot of people on here seem to slate anyone putting forward a reasoned argument of why independence is a bad idea as somehow 'having a dig at the poor Scots'. Interpret this as you will.

Nice try, the Edinburgh defence as it is is known here. S'funny that this thread is in the minority in that it is started by a pro-Indy supporter. Normally we have crackers likes Zokes explaining why the rest of the UK should have a vote as well, threads expressing wonder that we might object to being referred to as Jocks,despite the OP living up here for 6 years...All to stir up a wee bit of animosity.I really don't know why you all care so much,especially if as both you and he claim, we do so well out of the union. Would you not be better cutting us lose and getting a couple of p of the base rate?

I think there is little venom towards Scotland or Scots but a lot (correctly IMO) directed towards wee eck's BS (and Sturgeon's).

I am not sure that the points coming from the UK govt are things that we should all respect

Strip them away and have a reasonable discussion about devolving more power to Holyrood and it would be a flier IMO.

Sadly, the wrong captain leading the wrong arguments resulting in the wrong conclusion. Scotland deserves much better than AS.

What shame you cannot respect the electoral wishes of the scottish people in terms of whom they elected and instead choose to snipe from england about their choice. Amusingly you snipe like this do whilst wanting a better debate LOLZ at the irony. Is it not clear that what they want and what you want are not the same thing hence why they have elected him again?

Ps some ace sniping there you have really helped move the debate along into the respectful and informed [ same applies to me to be fair]

I have never got the hatred for him tbh - he has almost achieved his political dream and he has been a leader of his nation with immense popularity. he has used the ballot box and he has achieved real tangible progress for his cause. He is clearly very capable and popular.

Duckman - why do we care? That should be very obvious, these decisions have far reaching consequences for people outside Scotland and as we have seen this month when AS and NS spout BS about financial markets and debt then rUK have to react - hence last month's statement that debt would be honoured. That is being responsible. Look how you feel when comments and decisions made outside Scotland affect you. The rUK are just the same.

From a selfish perspective, I may well be returning to Scotland to live and hence I would like to see the country's best interest served.

Ben clearly a lot of people voted for him. That is their prerogative. Equally more Scots are currently saying that they disagree with him on this issue. As you say, that's the beauty of Independence, it's up to them and the message so far is relatively clear. Your fellow countrymen are very canny - great place to be educated!!!!

bencooper - Member
he's probably the most capable politician in the UK at the moment.

So capable that he was outmanoeuvred on the correct question after all this time. I thought you were also able to vote him out under the current situation. Has Scotland become a totalitarian state and no one has noticed?!?!

Ah, we've reached the point in the thread where THM starts using multiple punctation marks, excellent!&%

...and like the quotes "repeated" (hint) above, good to see that you are joining me 😉

Funny comment in the FT debate today

Report Deveron | February 12 2:40pm | Permalink
@Derek Sturdy

You're making the mistake of many english observers and conflating "Scotland" with the "SNP". A large number of scots, possibly the majority, are actively hostile to the SNP and will not necessarily consider english politicians rebuking Salmond and Sturgeon as "bullying".

In the 2010 general election the SNP got 19% of the vote vs the scottish conservatives' 16%. You wouldnt necessarily know those percentages listening to our self-appointed tribunes, Salmond and Spurgeon.

You'll not see me rushing to defend Salmond or the SNP THM, but rather more relevant to this debate is the 45% won in the 2011 Scottish Parliament election. Whether you believe that's down to support for the SNP or voting against the Lib Dems for joining the Tories in 2010 or something else, it makes equating SNP votes with independence votes less than clear.

In the 2010 general election the SNP got 19% of the vote vs the scottish conservatives' 16%. You wouldnt necessarily know those percentages listening to our self-appointed tribunes, Salmond and Spurgeon.

Someone tried quoting that number on here a while back and was rightly told it wasn't really very relevant. You don't need me to tell you why.

They did very well in that election true. I am sure there were lots if reasons why. And tbc, I am not actually equating SNP votes with independence either. It's pretty clear as my previous post shows - there is a gap between votes cast for the SNP and polls re independence - so sorry, do not understand the point. Excuse me.

WNB, blame that on me copying too much of someone else's post on the FT today. Not my comments - hence the quote box.

So in the elections for the Uk parliament(?) they got 19% and the Tories got % 16?
How did the Tories fare in the Scottish elections?

Poorly. I refer you to my previous answer about someone else's post! Can't edit to remove confusion now.

So in the elections for the Uk parliament(?) they got 19% and the Tories got % 16?
How did the Tories fare in the Scottish elections?

Not quite. They got 19% of the Scottish votes in the 2010 election. Labour still got somethiing like 40%, from memory.

do not understand the point. Excuse me

It related to the 2nd para you quoted. I read you implied 19% wasn't a basis to speak for Scotland. No matter I dislike the speaker, 45% is.

 

Dear Scotland

Don't leave us this way
We can't survive, we can't stay alive
Without you love, oh Scotland
Don't leave us this way
We can't exist, I will surely miss
Your tender kiss
So don't leave us this way

aaaaaaaaaaaaaah Scotland!

ps take Jimmy Somerville with you

bye