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Oh look, here's some more peculiarly selective offence taken - this time about Stewart Lee:
Even Stewart Lee, considered by many the thinking-person’s comedian, wrote last year in The Guardian that Alex Salmond is a ‘coward’ who ‘reminds me of the mayor of a small provincial town [with] ideas above his station.’ The piece was accompanied by a cartoon Salmond with red, demonic eyes. While Salmond is, of course, open for criticism we should observe Lee’s likening of Scotland to a ‘provincial town’. Shortly after Lee rhapsodies about much he ‘loves Scotland’ he regurgitates every cliché in the book – heroin, Jimmy Krankie, alcoholism, the Scottish diet – in order to prove it. With friends like these, eh?
http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2013/02/03/is-it-cos-wur-scots/
Stewart Lee has delivered this to Scottish audiences plenty of times (and the audience loved it):
....Because that would have made William Wallace, Braveheart, your national hero, a paedophile. A Scottish paedophile. The worst kind of paedophile that there is.Coming at you... through a bothy... With shortbread on its face. Muttering unintelligible sexual threats in a frankly incomprehensible dialect.
This thread's recent humour is an nice antidote to AS absurd desperation. It's actually quite pathetic (in the true sense of the word) at how ill-prepared he is in such a key issue. Flip-flopping from one idea to the next is absurd as it the notion of sterlingisation, he even has Krugman attacking him, so that is quite a diverse group of people who are pointing out the folly on which the BoD and yS plans are currently based. That is quite an achievement to unite such a diverse bunch of opponents to his plans.
It’s true, as pointed out here, that England, I mean the rump UK, I mean continuing Britain, whatever, can’t prevent the Scots from using the pound, just as the United States can’t stop Ecuador from using dollars. [b]But the lesson of the euro crisis, surely, is that sharing a common currency without having a shared federal government is very dangerous.[/b][b]In fact, Scotland-on-the-pound would be in even worse shape than the euro countries, [/b]because the Bank of England would be under no obligation to act as lender of last resort to Scottish banks — that is, it would arguably take even less responsibility for local financial stability than the pre-Draghi ECB. And it would fall very far short of the post-Draghi ECB, which has in effect taken on the role of lender of last resort to eurozone governments, too.
Add to this the lack of fiscal integration. The question isn’t whether Scotland would on average pay more or less in taxes if independent; probably a bit less, depending on how you handle the oil revenues. Instead, the question is what would happen if something goes wrong, if there’s a slump in Scotland’s economy. As part of the United Kingdom, Scotland would receive large de facto aid, just like a U.S. state (or Wales); if it were on its own, it would be on its own, like Portugal.
Now, Scotland would presumably have high labor mobility — assuming it manages somehow to join the EU (although that too would be surprisingly tricky) it would be under the Single European Act, and it sort of shares a common language with England (even if you sometimes wish there were subtitles). But that’s not necessarily a good thing: what we’re seeing in places like Portugal is large-scale emigration of young workers, leaving a diminished population to bear the fiscal burden of caring for the elderly.
[b]Again, I can understand Scots grievances. But if they really want to do this, they had better get real about money.[/b]
Paul Krugman, NY Times yesterday
NS finishes with:
Salmond's hope is that the spectacle of English Tories vetoing a currency union, and of Labour siding with them, will redound to his political benefit (although the most recent polls continue to give the No campaign a comfortable lead). But his policy credibility is being shredded.
THM - of course the other problem remaining with Salmonds default plan B of sterlingisation, is that an absence of a central bank means no ERMII, and therefore no EU membership 😳
Ho hum. This is beginning to sound a lot like that "Is 'Jocks' offensive" thread from a while back. If you don't understand why repeating the same tired stereotypes gets a bit wearing, there's not much I can do to explain it.
And Stewart Lee has never been funny about anything 😉
Ninfan, the whole thing is ludicrous. As I said before, outside the theoretical, no one including his advisors give this idea any credence, and rightly so. The NS is correct, his credibility is becoming shredded not that IMO he had any in the first place. When I read the BoD when it came out, I couldn't believe that it was a serious document, it has more holes than a Swiss cheese but is far less satisfying.
Scotland and rUK deserves better!! 😉
Paul Krugman also said that he had no poition on Scottish independence and that he understood Scots frustration at being "tied to David Camerons England" his wording not mine. Odd that didnt make it into your quote THM
😕
This piece also came from the NYT
[url= http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/24/opinion/the-disunited-kingdom.html?hp&rref=opinion ]Kathleen Jamie The Disunited Kingdom[/url]
Indeed scotland does deserve better than what the Tory fanboys of THM and Ninfan want 😉
Its not unreasonable points you are making to be fair and no one thinks AS economics is credible not even him. He is doing/saying it for political reasons are indeed rUK.
Economics wont decide the outcome as most folk do not understand why they cannot do this and the simple, yet deceptive, message of English bullying will play out well and easily
Good politics may not be good behaviour
THM - of course the other problem remaining with Salmonds default plan B of sterlingisation, is that an absence of a central bank means no ERMII, and therefore no EU membership
As I understand it ERMII participation is voluntary and is not a requirement of EU membership.
Gordi - sorry, excuse me, I only [b]bolded[/b] the bit about "understanding Scotlands frustrations", but never mind. Plus we do need to elevate this beyond an anti-English, anti-Tory things since it is much more than that!!!
I note also that we are to take Krugmans opinion on EU membership but still no approach to the European Commision for the definitive advice from them
Ho hum. This is beginning to sound a lot like that "Is 'Jocks' offensive" thread from a while back. If you don't understand why repeating the same tired stereotypes gets a bit wearing, there's not much I can do to explain it.
It's all about context surely. Whether you consider it to be light-hearted ribbing from well-meaning friends, or mean-spirited bullying by arseholes. The latter seems to be how you're taking it (sometimes correctly I guess, but sometimes not).
But complaining about Steve Bell being offensive (when you've admitted you don't mind when he's offensive about people you don't like) is pretty daft.
And Stewart Lee has never been funny about anything
Lots of Scottish people disagree - are they self-hating Scots? 😉
But complaining about Steve Bell being offensive (when you've admitted you don't mind when he's offensive about people you don't like) is pretty daft.
You're assuming I like Alex Salmond?
that is definitely bullying and not banter
REPORTS POST
Sorry THM but who is posting anti-english comments?
As for anti tory posts guilty as charged. 😆
Nope. Not sure what argument you're trying to make there.
Whatnobeer - looking further I see that you don't have to sign up to it immediately, but you have to agree to it as part of the pathway to (mandatory) adoption of the Euro
So its back to 'negotiating to be the new Sweden'
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that is definitely bullying and not banter
of whom, AS?
We've had that one already - keep up 😉
It was just a joke
I saw Cameron's face up there and was reminded of the picolax thread...
It was just a joke
Careful now, some people North of the border don't like that sort of thing.....
Oh, I got it 😉
Good use of the word "banter" there too.
[url= http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/alan-wyllie/currency-union_b_4784043.html ]Anyone else read this?[/url]
Appeared last week, Alan Wyllie having a go at Labour party for many things, including backing Osborne.
Wyllie should think about Scotlands past links with Panama before writing such tosh.
This point in particular is worth emphasising:
The proposal for iScotland (Independent Scotland) and the rUK (rest of the UK) to share a currency union does not originate from the Scottish Government.
People seem to think that currency union is Alex Salmond's pet project - it isn't.
Wyllie should think about Scotlands past links with Panama before writing such tosh.
Don't even try and compare this to the Darien scheme.
Well, he started the Fiscal Commission and the white paper indicates an intention to adopt its receommendation of currency union. I don't think anyone can claim the white paper doesn't "originate from the Scottish Government".People seem to think that currency union is Alex Salmond's pet project - it isn't.
The Westminster government does this too - set up an independent commission on something, then implement their recommendations. It's what you do when you want to get an expert opinion on something.
If the Fiscal Commission had recommended one thing and the white paper had featured a different idea, everyone would be jumping up and down.
crums, 42 pages. Can somebody summarise for me 😆
crums, 42 pages. Can somebody summarise for me
Scotland should have a currency union/shouldnt have a currency union
Scotland can keep the pound/cant keep the pound
Scotland will be in the EU/Wont be in the EU
Scotland will have to use the Euro/wont have to use the Euro
Haggis, Darien scheme, Alex Salmond, Gideon, Cameron, via the BBC and the New York Times. Polical satire. Jocks.
teamhurtmore - Member
Wyllie should think about Scotlands past links with Panama before writing such tosh.
Topical, but poor choice. That would be like saying England should look to it's colonial past before playing hardball with Scotland over the terms of the divorce.
It remains the case that a formal currency union is the Scottish Government's, and hence Alex Salmond's proposal. To say otherwise is misleading.If the Fiscal Commission had recommended one thing and the white paper had featured a different idea, everyone would be jumping up and down.
It remains the case that a formal currency union is the Scottish Government's, and hence Alex Salmond's proposal. To say otherwise is misleading.
It remains the case that a formal currency union was the advice given to the Scottish Government, and hence the Fiscal Commission's proposal. To say otherwise is misleading and tries to further the idea that AS is pushing own agenda rather than one that's beneficial for Scotland as well as rUK.
Its clear that AS hasn't got a clue - err the €, no a currency union, no we just use the £ anyway - so tough to pin it on a guy with no idea and understanding of the issue. The CU was the proposal of the Fiscal Commission as a starting point for negotiation that has subsequently been rejected by HMT and the three main political parties. Like other politicians he merely [s]rabbits[/s] repeats what he is told.
AS has got himself in yet another pickle by his usual subtefuge. Of course, he is correct to say that no one can stop anyone using a currency (unless there are certain capital controls) but that does not mean that it is a sensible, viable or even vaguely credible option for Scotland. More pants down from the King of Farce.
THM is very obvious you don't like AS, sure he's been out manoeuvred on this issue, but to call him the King of Farce doesn't give him any credit for pulling off something that looked very unlikely to ever happen a few years ago. Given his education I'm sure he understands very well about the Euro and the £.
I'd argue that a CU is still on the table despite was is being said out of Westminster at the moment. As others have said, the situation would change massively should there be a yes vote.
What a vote on what the majority wants?? 😉 The canniest politician in the UK outmanouvered on his life's goal by the likes of CMD, GO, DA and Darling. Blimey!
I'm sure that he does understand (and for shared reasons) so one can only conclude that he is being deliberately deceitful. QED.
The farce is the constant change in position to suit the wind direction. Truly pathetic and sad.
Those who say the position on CU will change massively in the event of a yes vote are repeatedly ignoring the UK General Election that will follow in 2015. A mandate to enter such a fiscal union will be required & the electorate are looking increasingly unlikely to hand any party such a mandate. I think people are underestimating the depth of feeling towards the concept..
The Fiscal Commission doesn't publish white papers so whatever its influence on the proposal, the Scottish Government has to have a formal position and formal currency union is it.It remains the case that a formal currency union was the advice given to the Scottish Government, and hence the Fiscal Commission's proposal.
think people are underestimating the depth of feeling towards the concept..
I think people underestimate how sensible and balanced most people in the rUK are about currency union - more than 70% think it's a good idea:
There's been a lot of propaganda since that poll was conducted.
http://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/02/16/opposition-currency-union-rises-sharply-england-an/
Ah, strike my last comment then - I guess I was being optimistic about how sensible and balanced rUK people are 😉
Interesting that Gideon's intervention hardened attitudes both sides of the border - was that the intention, you think?
Wouldn't surprise me.
Leaves room for more hard nosed negotiations before the elections.
I think people underestimate how sensible and balanced most people in the rUK are about currency union - more than 70% think it's a good idea
I suspect something like 90% didn't understand the question they were being asked (it's not like it was the tightest worded question 🙄 ) and assumed it meant Scotland continuing to use a pound which was under the control of rUK, that and/or they didn't actually understand the implications and risks of a currency union. The only alternative being that they're pretty stupid given the almost unanimous expert opinions on the matter.
I did find this gem amongst the comments on that disingenuous Wyllie article:
without Scotland and Monetary Union, Sterling is likely to collapse
😆
I am waiting for the reasoning that if you vote no you are not in support of a currency union.
haha aye, pretty much that every 2 pages.whatnobeer - Member
crums, 42 pages. Can somebody summarise for me
Scotland should have a currency union/shouldnt have a currency union
Scotland can keep the pound/cant keep the pound
Scotland will be in the EU/Wont be in the EU
Scotland will have to use the Euro/wont have to use the Euro
Haggis, Darien scheme, Alex Salmond, Gideon, Cameron, via the BBC and the New York Times. Polical satire. Jocks.
Pretty much the only people that care about these issue are English singletrackers from what I can tell! 😀
This is true. Pretty much nobody I talk to about it in real life even mention the pound, EU etc. it's all about self determination.
Maybe we're only interested in the issues which are likely to affect us. By the sounds of things, the Scottish don't care about the actual issues, simply where the decisions are made.
Prediction: Scotland will be 'granted' a formal currency union in return for a (quietly pre-arranged) share of the debt.
Assumption: as the election draws closer, if the polls show further movement towards "yes", messengers will be dispatched from both camps to negotiate.
Osborne is many things but not daft. Its in the rump's best interest to maintain the current arrangements as closely as possible. This is the best option for doing so.
Its called politics 🙂
Maybe we're only interested in the issues which are likely to affect us. By the sounds of things, the Scottish don't care about the actual issues, simply where the decisions are made.
Perhaps because we understand that, without the ability to rule ourselves, we'll never be able to sort out the issues.
so one can only conclude that he is being deliberately deceitful.
Is this in comparison to all the honest politicians we can all admire?
Genuine question alert
If Scotland used the pound could this make the pound more unstable/have consequences for rUK? If so would some form of arrangement not be prudent?
the Scottish don't care about the actual issues, simply where the decisions are made.
applies equally to the anti EU lot would you not say ? not saying it is admirable but it is what people do
The issues don't matter. The fundamental question is would Scotland survive and thrive as an independent country? Pretty much everyone on both sides agrees yes.
The issues are temporary - currency, EU, whatever - they'll be sorted out or changed beyond recognition in 20, 50, 100 years. So ignore the issues, the real point is whether Scotland should be governed by people elected by the people of a Scotland. Decide that fundamental issue, and we can then work on the rest.
So ignore the issues, the real point is whether Scotland should be governed by people elected by the people of a Scotland. Decide that fundamental issue, and we can then work on the rest.
I think you are right Scotland by it's self determination leaves the EU and the 75% of legislation that gets created there for local implementation. You Scots then get to decide which laws you want to enact rather than faceless eurocrats in another country 😉
Ben please stay we [s]want your oil and a Wimbledon champion [/s] like you, we can still be friends [ Dave told me to say this*]....just accept having tory governments and take one for the team {UK] wont you....****ing selfish scots eh**
* Bowie or cameron take your pick 😉
** I am not steve Bell 😛
You want to know what really scares me about independence?
Really, desperately worries me?
What keeps me up at night?
What if there's an import tax on Eccles cakes?
I don't know how I'd cope.
How exactly did the Scots wangle a vote?
"Dear Mr Cameron can we have a vote and **** off with all the oil?"
" Why yes ,Mr Salmond ,by all means"
Something doesn't add up to me. Who would want to be the prime minister that lost the union? What does CMD gain from this?
I can't see a Tory landslide forever as if anything ever goes wrong it will be easy for Labour to blame it on the Tories giving away Scotland.
Your worries are over BEN as I will smuggle them in for equal weight in Plain bread and or sugar rolls
So if Scotland don't get the currency union they won't take any debt. I guess that means they don't get any of the gold reserves in the bank of England then or we give them less of a share of something else.
Sturgeon v Lamont square go, live on STV right now! 😀
That the point, if England decides it owns the whole of the pound, it would obviously follow that they think they own the rest of the assets. So no assets for scotland, no debt. The converse is also applies, ie we'll take our share of the debt, assuming England wants to split all the assets fairly.So if Scotland don't get the currency union they won't take any debt. I guess that means they don't get any of the gold reserves in the bank of England then or we give them less of a share of something else.
Why is that so difficult to understand?
In some areas the law applies - though of course politicians can fudge anything
For example the debt belongs to the UK and as rUK keeps the UK bit - EU, UN security council etc it is LEGALLY liable for this - A New Scotland is not. Similarly oil lies within the territorial waters of scotland so it is theirs.
Your right though broadly they will haggle over everything- if you do this we will do that and if you get this we want that etc.
No one can predict what the outcome will be hence this debate will go on [and on]
Apologies if this has been done as I couldn't be bothered to wade through all 43 pages, but regarding the military, this chap dissects the planned split quite nicely and dispassionately. As with so many things, the devil is in the detail, which is why I'm always suspicious when people say things like "we just take 9% of the assets and people, simple" (I'm paraphrasing there).
Navy:
http://thinpinstripedline.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/assessment-on-proposals-for-scottish.html
Air Force:
http://thinpinstripedline.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/assessment-on-proposals-for-scottish_30.html
When you consider that that's just the MOD, and think of all the other agencies of state that similar difficulties would apply to, don't you think it's a bit TFD? I realise that's a negative argument, but you will not achieve the dream if you bankrupt yourself in the process!
The best thing I've read on the issue today:
[url= http://www.stringerville.com/2014/02/23/scottish-independence-an-open-letter-to-england/ ]An Open Letter to England (And Wales and NI)[/url]
Regarding the military, I don't think it's as simple as "we'll take 9%" - as those analyses show, it's not that easy. The UK as a whole wastes huge amounts of money trying to keep those silly toys at sea and in the air, I don't think an independent Scotland should even bother. Problem is, we need to deal with the MOD equipment as it exists,
So probably better to let us take the 9%, we'll flog it to the Saudis, buy a couple of fishery patrol boats and some small cheap aircraft, and use the rest of the money to build some hospitals. At least that'd be my preference.
[quote=codybrennan]Prediction: Scotland will be 'granted' a formal currency union in return for a (quietly pre-arranged) share of the debt.
😆 - you forgot to call the currency an asset.
You are Alex Salmond and I claim my £5 (that's 5 of our English pounds, backed by a lender of last resort, not some Scottish currency linked to it, please)
[quote=Junkyard]
the Scottish don't care about the actual issues, simply where the decisions are made.
applies equally to the anti EU lot would you not say ?
😀 as far as most of those anti the EU, yes you're probably right - for those of us prepared to look at the real issues I'd argue there is no hypocrisy in being pro a union which works, and anti one which is massively corrupt and mired in bureaucracy (don't even suggest that Westminster compares).
[quote=bencooper ]The issues are temporary - currency, EU, whatever - they'll be sorted out or changed beyond recognition in 20, 50, 100 years.
Do remember to discount the oil revenues when looking that far into the future.
I'd argue there is no hypocrisy in being pro a union which works, and anti one which is massively corrupt and mired in bureaucracy (don't even suggest that Westminster compares).
TBH I did not even mean it like that or mean to bring that up tbh.
What it shows is that folk dont like being ruled from afar and having other countries standards applied to them be it prisoners voting or bedroom taxes.
The english like the one they impose on and not the one they are a player in; I think you can work out which one they think works 😛
@whatnobeer - that's a really good article, thanks.
Do remember to discount the oil revenues when looking that far into the future.
I do, but hopefully the oil fund will still be going then. That's the clever thing about an oil fund, it lasts beyond the oil. But even if Scotland squanders the oil revenue just like the UK has, we've got other strong industries. We'll be fine.
by my reckoning if we don't get a fair share of the assets, we just simplly punt the existing trident to either north korea or iran for an over inflated price! 😆we'll flog it to the Saudis.
TBH I did not even mean it like that or mean to bring that up
I understood what you meant, and agreed with you, but couldn't resist the supplementary 😉
by my reckoning if we don't get a fair share of the assets, we just simplly punt the existing trident to either north korea or iran for an over inflated price!
Yup, plus there's a bunch of slightly used nuclear hunter-killers at Rosyth, which any third-world dictator would be happy to have.
Oh, and most of a state-of-the-art aircraft carrier - some assembly required 😉
We should get a fair price for all the arms stockpiled in glen douglas as well. 😆bencooper - Member
by my reckoning if we don't get a fair share of the assets, we just simplly punt the existing trident to either north korea or iran for an over inflated price!
Yup, plus there's a bunch of slightly used nuclear hunter-killers at Rosyth, which any third-world dictator would be happy to have.Oh, and most of a state-of-the-art aircraft carrier - some assembly required
Fair auld earner to be had out of an independent scotland! 😀
I do, but hopefully the oil fund will still be going then. That's the clever thing about an oil fund, it lasts beyond the oil. But even if Scotland squanders the oil revenue just like the UK has, we've got other strong industries. We'll be fine.
Well at least you'd squander it on tuition fees and prescription charges (not meant as a dig BTW). The thing is, there's nothing particularly magical about oil as a source of revenue to build a wealth fund - currently the oil revenues cover the difference between what you pay in taxes and what you spend (well most of - clearly you still have a deficit). In order to build up a wealth fund you'd need to either increase taxes or cut what you spend. I got the impression the realistic chance for that had gone in the 80s, though I'm far from an expert and could be wrong - but the point about changing the way your finances works remains.
You have quite a strong financial industry though, you'll be fine...
Will all our **ck** up roads magically be repaired by our new voted for by "us" government?
How many new civil service jobs will be created(gravy train)to service New Scotland?
How will the new super duper Scottish gov fix al the stuff they have already **ck*** up like health, police! education , councils etc.
Will council tax stay frozen?
Will we still be able to afford free prescriptions, eye tests and bus passes?
Will something be done about the wind farm scandal currently making the news re payments for down time and the thousands of acres of carbon sucking trees that have been destroyed to satisfy another AS pet project?
Then there is the white elephant that is Holyrood which will probably become "not fit for purpose" ie grande enough for AS/NS and their hangers on!!
Too many people getting hung up on oil and the £ and ignoring all the other stuff that makes the country tick
your one of those undecided floating voters aren't you 🙂
Oh, and most of a state-of-the-art aircraft carrier - some assembly required
😀
😯
😆
No wonder that AS is considered a heavyweight when you listen to Lamont and Sturgeon in that STV debate. What happened to women bringing a better tone to the level of political debate? 😉
You have to love the graphic used by STV, with a bright light in the narrow central zone contrasting with the rest of Scotland in relative darkness. Is that foreshadowing what might be to come?!? A very appropriate background for the debate.
The best thing I've read on the issue today:An Open Letter to England (And Wales and NI)
This is yet another article that wrongly thinks institutions are assets.
This is yet another article that wrongly thinks institutions are assets.
To the man on the street though, it doesn't matter. It captures how a lot of people feel about the whole situation and tactics being used to try and swing the vote to the No side.