[Closed] Osbourne says no to currency union.

Not from my point of view based on general TV and radio coverage, not really spent any time digging into their policies in detail because everything from AS currently seems to carry no data to back it up. If they want to be taken more seriously they need to address these areas as it's a view held by many I know.

It's been pretty much the first line out of AS's mouth any time currency is mentioned "We want to take share of the assets and of course the liabilities" 😯

However what AS is proposing is even worse (for Scotland), keep the shared currency but drop out of any control of it. So rUK sets interest rates based around what's best for rUK and Scotland just puts up with it. At least now, the BoE is obliged to take note of North of the Border

Is it? I can't imagine the BoE take too much notice of what's going on up here, Westminster certainly don't seem to.

As for how the Greece and Euro vs Scotland and shared currency the main Achilles heal of the Euro was that Greece was able to raise billions in bonds with the market initially assessing the risk (of default) on the whole Euro zone.

If Scotland unilaterally adopts the pound but the BoE make it very clear that any debt (in sterling) raised by Scotland won't be underwritten by the BoE, the Scotland may well lose one of the big advantages of the current fiscal union, it can borrow with BoE underwriting it's debt. They may get the £ but find the bond rates are much higher than for rUK.....

I'll take that as a "no" then 🙂

Is it? I can't imagine the BoE take too much notice of what's going on up here, Westminster certainly don't seem to.

I agree, but they'll take even less *if* Scotland buggers off....

I'll take that as a "no" then

I do believe that AS has it all sussed out, so nothing to worry about. Just sit back and bask in the glory of his smug grin and everything will be OK....

I do believe that AS has it all sussed out, so nothing to worry about. Just sit back and bask in the glory of his smug grin and everything will be OK....

And again, playing the man. I don't think Salmond has it all sorted out, as as a politician of course he's not to be trusted, but this is about so much more than Salmond. I agree with others who have said this won't be decided on financial arguments - it'll be a more thoughtful, emotional decision for many, combined with the (perhaps naive, perhaps optimistic) idea that it'll all work out okay.

And how can it not? Everyone agrees that Scotland would do fine on it's own - even David Cameron has said so.

but this is about so much more than Salmond

Absolutely.

I can see why he gets played so often. He's a relentlessly noisy turd often playing to the crowd when a points scoring opportunity arises.

But, Salmond will be dead and buried for the vast majority of Scotland's future. It's the basic principle of the Scottish states self determination that count most. Even with the long list of compromises that being a modern state entails.

Salmond is a good lightning rod for the idiocy - every time a cartoon appears of him in a kilt, or someone comments that he wants a dictatorship of his own, or any of the other crazy ramblings, reasonable Scots roll their eyes and move a little further towards independence.

If a black politician was asked about watermelons in a TV interview the way Salmond was asked about haggis, there would be complaints and probably prosecutions - he's the one politician it seems okay for the mainstream media to insult.

he's the one politician it seems okay for the mainstream media to insult.

Your point notwithstanding, he's perfectly happy to throw them out himself when it suits.

Indeed nb pointless jibe today about Cameron fooling about on the playing fields of Eton. Very mature. The SNP are the first to avoid the point and either personalise or play the bully card. Actually, it's wise for him to remind us just how old he (AS) is, perhaps we can forgive him forgetting what he learned as an undergrad,

DD, your correct on the negotiating points. It is perfectly normal and correct to lay down the basic terms of reference before the nitty-gritty begins*. What AS may fail to realise is that his hand is pretty weak. The rUK had already guaranteed all existing liabilities. Of course it is better for all to remain together, the alternative is a lose, lose. But the rUK loses less. Scotland will have to raise debt under independence. That massively limits their options and we know that, as does he.

If yS was as confident as the bluster makes out, they would have moved straight forward to separate Scottish currency with possible plans for € entry if they felt that was desired at a later date. The weakness of their hand is shown by the lack of confidence in the go-it-alone option.

* the yS did exactly this with their unilateral declarations/wish list in the BOD. Problem with not asking the other side first, is that they just might not agree!!!!!

So, on the day the Westminster cabinet visits Aberdeen to say we need to stay in the union because of oil*, a poll shows that 70% of oil workers plan to vote Yes:

http://www.oilandgaspeople.com/news/842/70-of-north-sea-oil-workers-in-favour-of-independence/

*No idea why, some waffle about "broad shoulders", apparently the oil isn't going to run out any day like they've been telling us, but we need their help to get it because oil companies haven't yet worked out that they can sell it for money.

will be dead and buried for the vast majority of Scotland's future

But isn't that a whole chunk of the problem - The independence movement, and Salmonds SNP leadership in particular, have a long history of playing short term 'today' arguments in the struggle, the history of the future currency debate is a prime example of this, had the vote been held a few years ago, then you would have been in the Euro when the crash happened.

Same goes for the Oil - while the independence movement have played the oil economy as their lifesaver, and as proof that Scotland can 'stand alone', where will that be in 20, 40, 100 years time?

"Chancer"

then you would have been in the Euro when the crash happened

Yup, and most countries in the Euro have been okay - we'd have been a Belgium, not a Greece. Still not a big deal, and it's not like the UK's financial situation is so much better than the Euro zone.

Same goes for the Oil - while the independence movement have played the oil economy as their lifesaver, and as proof that Scotland can 'stand alone', where will that be in 20, 40, 100 years time?

We'll hopefully have a sensibly invested oil fund, as the Norwegians have. Even if we don't, even if it's all squandered the way Westminster have done, we'll still have a decent economy based on other things and the prospects for renewables could be a second energy boom.

Either way, we'd still be alright.

we'd have been a Belgium, not a Greece.

Given what happened to RBS & Lloyds, & the whole Celtic tiger, I think thats a very bold assertion!

we'd have been a Belgium, not a Greece.

You sure?

Assuming the two big banks stayed Scottish, the combined debt of RBS and HBoS were much greater then the Scottish GDP. You'd have been bailed out like Greece and put in special measures with all the benefits they enjoy like 28% unemployment etc...

The RBS/HBOS debacle is a bit of a moot point, given that they're as much based in London as they are in Scotland, which like every other point in this thread has been discussed to death.

and it's not like the UK's financial situation is so much better than the Euro zone.

+1

Edit - Sneaky edit to foil clubber 😉

bencooper - Member

So, on the day the Westminster cabinet visits Aberdeen to say we need to stay in the union because of oil*, a poll shows that 70% of oil workers plan to vote Yes:

http://www.oilandgaspeople.com/news/842/70-of-north-sea-oil-workers-in-favour-of-independence/

😆

Have you seen how that survey was conducted?

whatnobeer - Member
The RBS/HBOS debacle is a bit of a mute point, given that they're as much based in London as they are in Scotland, which like every other point in this thread has been done to death

Look like it still needs doing some more then despite this. It's the legal entity and registration that counts not where people think that they are based. I know AS has been deliberately wooly on this to hide the truth, but still........

But with TSB already changing its status in the quiet and Standard Life about to make its comments on Friday! perhaps there will be less to worry about anyway. Businesses are already making their intentions clear. Financial services, retailers etc......thank goodness for some balance from the oilmen if that poll is to be believed!

mute point 🙂

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/moot_point

Bloody hell, a facebook page poll.

FFS 😆

teamhurtmore - Member
Except that very few people, including yS and BT, think that his would be a viable option. It's not even on the cards at the moment kona, from any side.

I might have to eat my words if the interpretation of wee eck's comments on R4 today are correct. Some saying that his comments were a hint that plan c is indeed a form of sterlingisation. Actually, I reckon that's the bluff, especially as the Fiscal commission has already ruled this out. But he's said plenty of stupid things before.

So, on the day the Westminster cabinet visits Aberdeen to say we need to stay in the union because of oil*, a poll shows that 70% of oil workers plan to vote Yes:

http://www.oilandgaspeople.com/news/842/70-of-north-sea-oil-workers-in-favour-of-independence/

I've a good mate who works in the oil industry in Aberdeen and when discussing independence he's said not one of the people who he works with thinks it's a good idea. In fact the company he works for has looked at the possibly of moving south if there's a yes vote as most of their work comes from overseas.

I imagine a lot of companies will be looking at moving their base, it would be stupid not to. Not because an iScotland economy would be a basket case or business unfriendly, it could well be exactly what they need, but to not consider the possibility would be mental.

In fact the company he works for has looked at the possibly of moving south if there's a yes vote as most of their work comes from overseas.

I'm not sure how a Yes vote would effect immigration and Visa's on the whole, but cant imagine Scotland being any less easy to get into than the rUK, assuming that the EU situation is sorted out.

The bit I find most upsetting personally about the whole independence debate is how it shows up people I used to really like and respect. Too many times I've been watching HIGNFY or listening to Radio 4 or similar, and someone who I thought was a decent sensible person comes out with some rot about Scotland and the Scottish.

The latest was Steve Bell. He was fantastic during Thatcher, nice portrayals of Blair were wonderfully observed, and Cameron with a condom on his head is just perfect, but then he produces this:

[img] [/img]

The Guardian has always been very London-centric, but who on earth decided that telling a whole country to go **** themselves was a good editorial decision? And what in earth was Steve Bell thinking when he drew it?

It just saddens me.

Not Bell's finest moment, but Scots need to retain their sense of humour. (Try being Irish FFS...)

I'm happy to laugh at Scotland, when the joke is funny. But usually they're not - it's usually just a variation on deep fried Mars bars.

it's usually just a variation on deep fried Mars bars.

So boring, but surely not upsetting?

The Guardian has always been very London-centric

You mean The Guardian which for its first 140 years of existence was called "The Manchester Guardian"?

The Guardian which is famously nicknamed "The Grauniad" because of its previous reputation of having far more typos than any other national daily paper, [i]"due to the difficulties of simultaneously editing the newspaper in both London and Manchester with analogue printing machines linked by telephone lines"[/i] ?

That Guardian ? 🙂

Not upsetting in the comments itself, more in that someone I thought was clever and witty can't resist a cheap dig at Scots to get a laugh. It's like when I found out the bloke who was a very good customer, who gave me a silver coin for my daughter when she was born, was very homophobic.

I guess I just like to think the best of people.

Edit: okay, "always" since they all moved down South and dropped the Manchester from the name,

Is that were Grauniad comes from? Good to have you back Ernie in more ways than one.

Like most things that aren't that funny, just ignore it Ben? Can't see that much different between that one and many of the others that people enjoy tbh. School humour?

Basic message is not that far off though! 😉

That's interesting gribs, my FiL is very high up in Halliburton and he points out that until the oil runs out they will still be sucking it up. He cites their presence in Somalia and Iraq as evidence.

What I like about Steve Bell is that he's never been particularly picky about who he has a go at.

I think a lot of people who have listened to AS' verbal gymnastics of the last couple of weeks and heard his interview on Radio4 this morning will have found that cartoon funny. Is that right? I dunno...makes me a little uncomfortable too. For many outside the chattering of internet forums and Broadsheet comments sections, I'm afraid AS [i]is[/i] the face of Scotland.

bencooper - Member

Not upsetting in the comments itself, more in that someone I thought was clever and witty can't resist a cheap dig at Scots to get a laugh. It's like when I found out the bloke who was a very good customer, who gave me a silver coin for my daughter when she was born, was very homophobic.

Oh come on, all of his humour is based around cheap digs! The word could equally have been 'rule' or '****', and that's the entirety of the joke.

Larry Elliott and now Steve Bell - do we have to add them (and TG's editors) to the list of bullies? 😉

Steve Bell isn't a bully, but I've lost a lot of respect for him. Satirising Salmond is fine (for cartoonists, playing the man is perfectly acceptable), but making comments like that about the whole country is different.

AS is pretty much the current face of Scotland for the UK - for better or worse. He does come across as wanting to turn any question into an attack on the tories, to some it also comes across as an attack on the English as well, although that does depend on personal outlook.
He is the face of the yS campaign so he is going to catch the flak, the fact he comes across as being as smug & arrogant as Cameron is unfortunate for him/gold for satirists.

Ah thm, you keep trying to suggest project fear is just a figment of touchy Scots minds...Yet constantly run AS down as a bully. How much do you think cartoons like that contribute to increasing the no vote?

It just saddens me.

Seriously?

It's called comedy and no one is off limits.

You can seriously expect Scottish Inependence to be off limit?

The latest was Steve Bell. He was fantastic during Thatcher, nice portrayals of Blair were wonderfully observed, and Cameron with a condom on his head is just perfect

Ahh, I get it now. Only politicians you don't like can be mocked...

I'm personally hoping it increases the yes vote! 😆

These aren't jokes about Scottish independence, they're jokes about Scots - and they're always the same jokes. Kilts, haggis, tartan, fried food, bad weather, tight with money, etc. the same jokes people have been making for decades when they can't think of anything funny to say.

I'm sure people from Liverpool get equally tired of the jokes about dole, not working, stealing etc.

As I said, try being Irish for a while.

You Scots don't know the half of it. 😆

(To be sure.)

You can seriously expect Scottish Inependence to be off limit?

The latest was Steve Bell. He was fantastic during Thatcher, nice portrayals of Blair were wonderfully observed, and Cameron with a condom on his head is just perfect
Ahh, I get it now. Only politicians you don't like can be mocked...

+1

His art (cartoons in a newspaper) are always trying to be controversial.

Also, re. project fear.

Politics these days is selling ideas to get elected or get a desired vote in a referendum. It's just classic salesmanship. Everybody trying to sell you something will (and should if he's any good at it) create the fear that without it, your life is somehow inadequate and you will be miserable for it's lack. You're then presented with the item or solution to assuage that fear.

Both camps are using "fear".

nS creating fear that a breakaway is to sail into stormy waters without your big brother/best mate to help you, thereby increasing the likelihood of floundering on the rocks. yS creating fear of a Tory future, another five years of austerity, at least five in every ten years of being ruled by those who make up rules in the dressing rooms of Eton and the ivory towers of Oxbridge.

How does anyone think a future EU In/Out referendum will be played? It'll be all about creating fear of the opposite result to that you desire to sell your idea - if anyone thinks "Project Fear" is cynical now, well, one ain't seen nuffin yet.

Politics is peddling one fear after the other. It's not about policies any more - it's more about creating fear of the other lot getting in. Modern bi-partisanism in the US is the distillation of all this.

These aren't jokes about Scottish independence, they're jokes about Scots

I'd say it's about Independance rather than Scots. After all if there wasn't this debate, I'm pretty sure Steve Bell would be mocking someone else.

Anyway if you can't stand the heat, get out of the fire and back in the union 😉

tight with money,

That's people from Yorkshire and Bolton, those citizens north of the border are merely amateurs 😉

I just can't see how Scotland is getting independence when it seems in all likelihood financial independence is being ceded...

The phrase is "going Dutch" for a reason, they are the champions of monetary caution.

Remember that Spitting Image Gazza puppet greeting everywhere? bencooper reminds me of that. If Spitting Image was still on the go we'd be flooded up here too. The ability to laugh at ourselves has always set us apart. I think that cartoon is funny but then again I'm happy to be called jock, or sweaty or haggis muncher and all the other things.

Could be the British sense of humour? I am a big fan of Monkey Dust. If the UK wasn't both good and a bit s**t it just wouldn't work. In general, too many people in Scotland are ready to dish out our brand of 'banter' but are not happy when it comes the other way.

Few weeks back (belated Burns supper) I had my first experience of Haggis.

Disappointed.

Neither enjoyable nor horrific.

Ben Cooper is on very sketchy ground complaining about English people abusing Scots. Winding up the English is a national sport among Scots. I have seen Scots with their faces painted in German flag colours and cheering as if it was Scotland beating England the last time England played Germany. English people do not do the same when Scotland play other teams.

Remember that Spitting Image Gazza puppet greeting everywhere? bencooper reminds me of that. If Spitting Image was still on the go we'd be flooded up here too. The ability to laugh at ourselves has always set us apart. I think that cartoon is funny but then again I'm happy to be called jock, or sweaty or haggis muncher and all the other things.

We are very good at laughing at ourselves - just look at the main subject of almost any Scottish comedian. That's not what I'm talking about - I'm talking about how the mainstream media seems to think it's acceptable to make such comments about the Scottish - and yes, the Irish, the Liverpudlians, pretty much anyone who isn't London and the Home Counties.

But really what I was talking about wasn't even that - I was simply talking about the disappointment when someone who has always seemed a decent sort comes out with the stereotypes to get a cheap laugh.

It shouldn't be about Scotland vs England, and I think the vast majority on both sides don't see it that way.

Am I missing something here? The cartoon you're finding so offensive, which offensive stereotypes does that contain? Exactly who do you think it is taking the P out of? Are you suggesting AS isn't fair game?

In other news, it was good of Cameron yesterday to point out how much our road and rail network has benefited from being part of the union,cos I hadn't noticed and might have missed that. What's that David? Your new train set from Birmingham to London is of national importance and benefits Scotland? Good example.

I just can't see how Scotland is getting independence when it seems in all likelihood financial independence is being ceded...

In other news, it was good of Cameron yesterday to point out how much our road

Scottish roads made me buy a car with big wheels.

bencooper - Member
We are very good at laughing at ourselves

🙂

bencooper - Member
I'm talking about how the mainstream media seems to think it's acceptable to make such comments about the Scottish - and yes, the Irish, the Liverpudlians, pretty much anyone who isn't London and the Home Counties.

Have you genuinely never heard of stupid Essex slags with Tango'd skin wearing white stilettos (aka TOWIE), 'Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells', Chelsea Tractors, Nathan Barley etc?

What about Chas and Dave

Their a mickey take too....aren't they?

Actually, being from Norfolk I'm disgusted by some of the terms used by the NHS.

There's nothing normal about Norfolk.

piemonster - Member

Scottish roads made me buy a car with big wheels.

Actually, being from Norfolk

In the rest of the country we call them tractors.

It's an illusory monetary independence that the UK has now. Nothing important is being lost

???

The UK has illusory monetary independence? How so?

The UK is tied into a web of IMF, EU and WTO treaties, limiting what the treasury can do. Not to mention those overseas creditors holding a trillion pounds of debt.

One assumes yS in a currency union would have slightly less financial independence than say, PIGS in the recent Euro crisis. While each of those countries has a degree of overall independence that Scotland doesn't yet have.

The bit I find most upsetting personally about the whole independence debate is how it shows up people I used to really like and respect. Too many times I've been watching HIGNFY or listening to Radio 4 or similar, and someone who I thought was a decent sensible person comes out with some rot about Scotland and the Scottish.
The latest was Steve Bell. He was fantastic during Thatcher, nice portrayals of Blair were wonderfully observed, and Cameron with a condom on his head is just perfect, but then he produces this:

This just shows you've lost any sense of perspective. I'm sure you didn't mind when he made similarly crude jokes about Thatcher etc.

And some people can laugh at their own stereotypes - eg Liverpool fans singing 'you've got DiCanio we've got your stereo'.

All you're doing here is sounding humourless and like you've got a chip on your shoulder - I won't make the obvious dig. 😉

In the rest of the country we call them tractors.

To nick the phrase used above (and credit to the Two Ronnies one of whom was of course the pride of Scotland) - and in other news

I see in the FT this morning that Salmond has said Scotland will use the pound. I think we will soon see some analysis from the markets as to what the added cost to Scotland will be of this as Scotland will have to borrow money exclusively in currency it does not control (e.g. pound, euro, dollar) and which it's central bank cannot "print", investors will not like this at all. I see this as a temporary measure as I've posted many times if an independent Scotland wants to join the EU it's going to have to use the euro.

There are of course bitcoins, these seem to be quite topical at the moment, perhaps Scotland can use these.

[b]bencooper[/b] - Member
The UK is tied into a web of IMF, EU and WTO treaties, limiting what the treasury can do. Not to mention those overseas creditors holding a trillion pounds of debt.

I see this as a temporary measure as I've posted many times if an independent Scotland wants to join the EU it's going to have to use the euro.

Any commitment to a currency union would be long term, short term would only be possible if Scotland opts to use the pound without a union, in which case it may be used as s stepping stone to a new Scots currency. as for the Euro, it doesn't matter how often you say it, it wouldn't be the case unless existing EU laws change.

In the rest of the country we call them tractors.

😆

I should be offended by your rude joke about Norfolk types.

But I'm not. Good post.

bencooper - Member
It shouldn't be about Scotland vs England, and I think the vast majority on both sides don't see it that way.

+

duckman - Member
In the rest of the country we call them tractors

Two great examples of excellent Scottish SOH but Ben I think yours needed a smiley to avoid any doubt 😉 !

Not all of Steve Bell's Scottish Independence output has been funny but I did enjoy this one this morning

[img] [/img]

This just shows you've lost any sense of perspective. I'm sure you didn't mind when he made similarly crude jokes about Thatcher etc.

Show me a Thatcher cartoon where he said that the English should go **** themselves.

I've not got a problem with him satirising the person - that oil rig one up there is a good example - but being plain offensive to a whole country is different.

an Independent Scotland tied to the pound will have very little freedom and virtually no control on fiscal matters except over taxes.

2) Scotland is already tied to the pound, and unless there's a proposal to tow the territory to, say, butt up against Jutland, then it's going to be tied to the pound for as long as England uses it. It's funny how the British patriots on this thread are most interested in striving for a state of independence that is mythical.

3) you don't know what fiscal means!

Ben, strange that its taken you a whole, what, thirteen months to be offended by this Steve Bell cartoon, that was published on 31st January 2013 ?

Show me a Thatcher cartoon where he said that the English should go **** themselves.

Oh, so that's the only thing that it's ok to be offended about. Righty-ho.

I've not got a problem with him satirising the person - that oil rig one up there is a good example - but being plain offensive to a whole country is different.

Personally I don't find Steve Bell particularly amusing or clever anyway, but each to their own.

Ben, you are not coming across well.

Why are Scottish stereotypes not fair game?

That thin about watermelon and haggis is nonsense. Your iconic Bard wrote a poem about haggis, you have a whole ceremony for haggis on Burns night and a lot of people find the ingredients of haggis a bit strange.

When it suits the whole cultural identity thing is celebrated when its mocked you call foul.

He almost always shows Cameron with a condom on his head I assume to suggest dickhead - he is rarely flattering to his targets

Ben i agree that stereotyping does exist and that sometimes it passes the mark but thi sis just standard Bell stuff - not a great fan wither myself tbh - sometimes funny sometimes just flicking the V's at people he dislikes

“Photoshopped versions appeared almost instantly with the word “Scotland” replaced by “England”. An intended consequence, aimed at providing ammunition for those who would paint independence supporters as anti-English?”

http://wingsoverscotland.com/friends-like-these-2/

So, would you find the Photoshopped version similarly offensive, and do you agree with this fairly silly conspiracy theory?

New Statesman also says No to AS's master plan:

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/02/salmonds-plan-use-pound-without-permission-would-be-dangerous-scotland