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Cameron, with a lot of help from Gordon Brown, has set Labour a really nasty conundrum. Support constitutional change. and face the prospect of being unable to govern England; or oppose it, and fight a rainbow coalition of all the other parties who want it.
the fat lady sang after the north/south lanarkshire and glasgow results.
I called it (and went to bed) when the Western Isles voted no. Not significant in terms of the number of votes, but significant from the POV that if Yes couldn't win there they weren't going to win.
Scotland's gift to the UK - we've saved Cameron and saved you lot from being Borissed.
Indeed - I'm far from a CMD fan, and actually used to quite like Boris, but god help us all if he got to be in charge. Thank you Scotland.
So to sum up, who are the winners and losers?
Winners:
Gordon Brown - he has just resurrected his reputation as a heavy hitting politician. What are the odds on him becoming Scottish First Minister?
CMD - well he gave them the referendum they asked for, got the result he wanted and is now looking like a real statesman - still has some difficult and dangerous games to play though
Alistair Darling - another resurrection job, might have been a bit rubbish in the second debate, but ultimately his team won
Losers:
AS - I'm sure he'll be busy spinning it as a win in some sense, but that's not how he sees it, nor how others within his party and wider Scotland will see it - I predict he won't be there for long
Ed - on the winning side, but honestly has he actually contributed anything?
Boris - see comments on CMD
of course that could all be a load of rubbish, but it's how I'm seeing it
Aracer - you missed the most obvious and the most important. The people of Scotland and the rUK are the winners. It's them/us that matter not our representatives. The most successful union in history has been maintained and for good and obvious reasons. The structure will, of course, evolve now and hopefully in a balanced way.
It will be a worry for Labour that ED was so marginal. Obvious why CMD might be, but Ed....ouch.
Is that polite for english
Nope
The structure will, of course, evolve now and hopefully in a balanced way.
I would be suprised,Milliband has proved how useless he is,increasingly he sounds like the Roman senator from Life of Brian.And Labour has become a fairly toxic brand up here now;The areas that voted yes are traditionally strong Labour seats. I think that safe from the near miss he has had,Cameron will,as he has promised "Make sure Englands voice is heard." And he has five years to do it,his backbenchers are already up in arms about giving Scotland more devolved powers. Might struggle to get them into the Queens speech anytime soon.
Boris will be leader of the Tories one day, sooner or later.
Gordon Brown should indeed think what his next steps should be, having been UK PM he may see campaigning for First Minister as a step down (no insult intended to the Scots here just it's a big risk to stand and then fail). A senior role at the EU ?
Agreed Milibrand has been the big loser here. Labour chose the wrong brother.
Labour chose the wrong brother.
Every time I see him in my head I hear Wallace saying "It's the wrong Miliband, Gromit!"
Boris will be leader of the Tories one day, sooner or later.
Hopefully after a heavy defeat for the Tories which will result in lots of infighting, failing to get in at the next election and Boris being defeated in a leadership election whilst still in opposition.
Not that I hate the guy, or think he's stupid - on the contrary he's quite likeable and very intelligent. He is also very dangerous IMHO.
after a heavy defeat for the Tories which will result in lots of infighting, failing to get in at the next election
Yeah, but the Tories now get to go into the next election preaching a manifesto of radical political reform and devolution of powers to Welsh, Ni and English cities/regions, along with reform of EU relationship and an EU referendum
So hopefully Boris doesn't get to be Tory leader just yet then.
I'd always planned to write some gloating message when Scotland voted no, but after the result it doesn't feel at all appropriate.
The reality is it doesn't really matter if we voted yes or no, Salmond or Cameron. The thing that makes us great is not the parties, nor the politicians , its the people of scotland. I'm happy we voted no, but i'm proud that we showed such passion over the past few months..
I may not have agreed with the yes campaign, but they have undoubtably showed that Scotland deserves a better deal than we currently get. and the work they have done has undoubtably benefited the people of scotland.
Yeah, but the Tories now get to go into the next election preaching a manifesto of radical political reform and devolution of powers to Welsh, Ni and English cities/regions, along with reform of EU relationship and an EU referendum
Yes, bingo. The more I think of it the Tories have taken the initiative here. There will have to be NI devolution to some degree otherwise there cannot be "English only" decisions.
Devolution for the North of England (probably need a thread 😉 ) - this again could be very double edged, if the "North" gets to determine their own tax/spend policies (in some regard eg by uncapping local rates/council tax) then their citizens are going to face higher tax bills to pay for spending initiatives. It could be political genius for, say, property taxes like stamp duty to be spent more locally, the South East raises much more than the rest of the country. Boroughs of Kensington and Chelsea and Westminster raise 7% of the national total. the top 1% pay 30% of the taxes. I am not saying all tax gets spent locally but if taxes do / powers do get more localised IMO there will only be one result. UK regional devolution can only help the South, no ?
Well said @tp but with the one comment that Scotland already gets a very good deal, as was highlighted in the campaign better than the Welsh.
if the "North" gets to determine their own tax/spend policies (in some regard eg by uncapping local rates/council tax) then their citizens are going to face higher tax bills to pay for spending initiatives. It could be political genius for, say, property taxes like stamp duty to be spent more locally, the South East raises much more than the rest of the country. Boroughs of Kensington and Chelsea and Westminster raise 7% of the national total. the top 1% pay 30% of the taxes.
Many of the Ideas were actually bandied around a few years ago by Carswell and Hannan - council tax replaced by local income tax for example, swinging the pressure back on to local authorities to control their spending and stops them blaming central government for cuts. Though likely not as radical as devolution of VAT or Corporation taxes, which would create competition between the regions to host companies (could be very good for the North though, if it suddenly became a lot cheaper to do business in certain parts of the country, and the increased local income taxes beneficial for the area) - Secretly, I suspect this is what Salmond was after, I think its probably too risky for central government to deliver, but personally I would support it.
@ninfan, if you have local corporation tax you'll just get brass plate offices and few employees. Local income tax instead of council tax decimates retirement orientated communities, eg coastal towns. It's complicated !
As I thought 16-18 year olds where heavily Yes driven by 16-17yr olds. That's why the SNP included them in the vote. Good for the "democratic" spin but also politcally pragmatic.
Older voters and Labour heavily No (more evidence of Brown to the rescue?). the older you where the more likely you where to vote No. Yes support dominated by the SNP vote. "Westminster" party voters predominantly No
[url= https://twitter.com/LordAshcroft/status/512890984255205376/photo/1 ]Ashcroft Poll[/url]
the older you where the more likely you where to vote No
With 18-24 voting No, it's not quite that clearcut
Jambalaya - I'm sure that you could move to prevent that (eg. apportioned on headcount basis or restricted to office with biggest headcount) and the coastal regions might select alternative/additional levies - the idea was that whatever came about was more adaptable to local needs to stimulate employment or economy than a blanket national policy.
One possible unexpected thing was that a lot of students may not have voted.
Term has just started and if they were not registered in their new addresses, they either had to make other arrangements or go home.
Two girls who share a flat with my daughter didn't get round to it in time so missed voting, so I wonder how many more there were.
but the Tories now get to go into the next election preaching a manifesto of radical political reform and devolution of powers to Welsh, Ni and English cities/regions, along with reform of EU relationship and an EU referendum
That is not radical seeing as all the parties are promising all of that
Even ignorign that it is not that radical
I think the Tories have issue without the coalition to curtail them - he can blame clegg here- but the party is split asunder on the EU. On the union they actually agree . IMHO the EU will be a train crash for them however it goes- whatever he " renegotiates" a large cadre of influential Tories will oppose it and campaign to leave. it will be unmanageable.
It goes with out saying that Ed is as damp a squib as it possible to get. He is impossible to get animated about either in love or hate.
As for the winners and the losers i would say a score draw
Before all this vote IMHO AS would have taken this and CMD would not have offered it
As it turns out, at the end, clearly CMD is more of a winner than AS . However we cannot be sure if this next devolutionary step is part of the glacial constitutional change that befalls the UK in the inexorable progression to separation or it is the end of the journey,
History needs to judge this IMHO
BBC reporting Miliband will not sign up to the PM's plan to give more powers to the Scottish Parliament.
Courageous.
Junkyard - lazarus
...As it turns out, at the end, clearly CMD is more of a winner than AS . However we cannot be sure if this next devolutionary step is part of the glacial constitutional change that befalls the UK in the inexorable progression to separation or it is the end of the journey...
Nice summary - in losing Salmond got almost all he wanted in the first place, but he is still seen as the loser.
If this process benefits the rest of the UK, that will be good too.
But how about we all start agitating for an oil fund like Norway?
Well we told you that NO delivered what you wanted - we could have solved a lot of time, expense and aggravation!
There is going to a whole load of nonsense with Lab and Cons having to position themselves on how/what to devolve. Forget the promises made in panic mode, this all needs to be debated and put to the rUK. This will be a big topic (although overshadowed by EU and the recovery in the economy) in 2015.
Having had months if Scot-centric debate over the past 6 months, CMD has already signalled his intention to move this to making changes that suit him in England. Lab will have three fronts to defend now - Scotland, England and the economic recovery. As if Ed didn't have enough to worry about already.
Wishful thinking on the reasons behind the delay in Salmond's press statement!!!! Nicola just ready to apply the nudge?
But how about we all start agitating for an oil fund like Norway?
Great idea. So next steps to create a budget surplus.....
!!
BS even in his resignation speech!
A role in Europe now?
Salmond to resign
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-29277527 ]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-29277527[/url]
But how about we all start agitating for an oil fund like Norway?
By paying more tax today, or by spending less or both (same as @tmh said)
@epic the differential was 400,000+ so a few students wouldn't have made any difference
Personally I am surprised at the AS resignation, Scots to get Sturgeon instead ? Yes defeat even more costly than they thought 😉
jambalaya - Member
...@epic the differential was 400,000+ so a few students wouldn't have made any difference...
Sorry, wasn't intending to imply it would have made much difference. The girls my daughter is sharing with were going to be no voters anyway.
Just one of those things you need to be aware about if you have a student voter in the family.
(I'm a believer in having people exercise their vote whether or not it is the same as mine)
jambalaya - MemberLabour chose the wrong brother.
😆
Because David Miliband, the man who is more Blairite than Tony Blair himself, would have made a great leader of the Labour Pary !
Spoken like a true Tory supporter jambalaya.
Got a genuine lol at this: https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/independent-enquiry-for-scottish-referendum-vote-count
@ernie, I think you and I have been round this one before 🙂 Blair delivered 10+ years of Labour government, moving further left will ensure Labour don't win. You win UK elections by being in the centre, be that centre-right or centre-left. Blair recognised that.
@epic understood and agreed !
I can understand the appeal Tony Blair had for you jambalaya, he delivered 10 years of Tory government repackaged as New Labour. What's not to like for a Tory supporter like you ?
I can also understand your disappointment that David Miliband wasn't chosen as leader.
I got what I voted for, a centerist government 😉
I got what I voted for, a centerist government
You got what the majority voted for too 😀
Well we told you that NO delivered what you wanted - we could have solved a lot of time, expense and aggravation!
They only made the offer last week and it was made as a result of the campaign and the closeness of the vote so the campign delivered the offer.
As i said he would have taken this at the start and CMD would not have offered it. At the time CMD would not even allow it on the ballot.
My job today was in a food processing factory in Cumbernauld
I ventured into the rest room for a tea and a warm up and, as you'd expect there was a lot of talk about the result.
They all seemed gutted, one fella said it was the proddys controlling the media that did for them, for which there was universal agreement.
I nodded and sipped my tea quietly 🙂
jota180 - Member
...They all seemed gutted, one fella said it was the proddys controlling the media that did for them, for which there was universal agreement.
Catholics. Protestants, and a big divide.
Glasgow's churches must be packed each Sunday with all those devoutly religious people.
I wonder when they'll get to the 11th Commandment...
jota180 - MemberThey all seemed gutted, one fella said it was the proddys controlling the media that did for them, for which there was universal agreement.
You should have explained that it's the zionist lizards that control the media.
Looks like there's been a Yes supporter stabbed in George Square in Glasgow after the Union Flag waving bampots arrived mob handed to break up the Yes party.
Shit
Potential was always there. Let's hope the guy isn't too badly hurt and it doesn't escalate. Just a few hundred nutters, if that ,hopefully.
Hopefully the case, some of the posts I've seen related to the alleged ballot fraud are disturbing. And on topic.
Apparently Queen St Station has shut its doors. Flares are being set off.
Doesn't bode well. Anyone near?
[img] 
[/img]
I have to say that this looks like the usual rent -a-thug mob and nothing to do with the No campaign. Sickening.
And the promised devo max all just smoke and mirrors...
No, the great triumph lay not in the quality of public debate (which was often breathtakingly dishonest) or the extent of popular participation (which was frequently ugly and demeaning). [b]The key to the real source of democratic freedom was in the result: what became clear was the sacred function of that late historical reform to the electoral system, the secret ballot[/b]
Janet Daley nails it.
Whatever poll respondents had said – or been afraid to say – about their intentions because they felt coerced or intimidated by the aggressive tactics of the other camp, [b]when it came to it, they were free to do as they pleased.[/b]
Fortunately.
This is a salutary lesson in the limits of militant political activism: you can bully people in the street, shout them down at public meetings and dissuade them forcibly from displaying posters or banners you don’t like. You can, with the help of your friends and comrades, create what seems to you, inside the bubble of mutual congratulation, to be an unstoppable momentum.But making people afraid to voice contrary opinions just reinforces the delusion into which political tribes so easily fall when they are waging war. And, even more dangerously, it leaves them utterly out of touch with the slow-burning resentment they are creating in the opponents they are so determined to crush. [b]The inviolable privacy of the polling booth puts paid to all that: the ordinary citizen, who may well have had his anger and resolve strengthened under fire, gets his revenge.[/b]
You can try to manipulate, bully, deceive to your hearts content, but you cannot go into the booth. The triumph of democracy indeed.
And the promised devo max all just smoke and mirrors...
Of course. You had your chance and bottled it - welcome back to the status quo.
Former Tory minister John Redwood has warned businesses not to meddle in the politics of the European Union referendum
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/29/john-redwood-warns-businesses-stand-way-eu-exit
This is all very confusing. Is it OK for businesses to have an opinion on issues of the day and say what they think, or not?
This is all very confusing.
Well let me help you. In the first sentence of your link : [i]"in a move greeted with astonishment by his colleagues"[/i].
And also bearing in mind that Redwood looks and acts weird even by Tory standards, I think it would probably be fair not to attach too much importance to what he says.
Here he is singing the Welsh national anthem :
HTH
It's dark humour to see one of the swivel-eyed loonies of the 1990s Tory right threatening to "destabilise corporate governance" and "disrupt business" for their pernicious influence in politics. It's like he's only now picked up on the main arguments of antiglobalisation. By December, he'll be quoting Naomi Klein. By March 2015, it'll be Chomsky, Spiral Tribe and driving to Czech techno festivals in an ex-Royal Mail van. Good luck to him - just twenty years too late.
Your point?
[url= http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/first-group-loses-scotrail-franchise-to-dutch-firm.1412715902 ]First Group has lost the lucrative ScotRail franchise to a Dutch firm.[/url]
[b][i] "It is scandalous that just a few weeks after the referendum, and promises from all quarters that the Scottish people would have an increased say in every aspect of their lives, that the continued privatisation of Scotland's railways has been bulldozed through with the SNP colluding with the political elite in Westminster to deny the opportunity for this franchise to be brought back into public ownership.
There is no question that this whole franchising process could and should have been halted, pending the ratification of the post referendum devolution settlement, instead of rushing headlong into a deal that will deny the Scottish people ownership and control of their railways for many years to come"[/i][/b]
And so it begins....http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29559618
Good news for people trying to buy cheaper houses and more tax to be paid by rich people buying more expensive houses, sounds pretty good to me?
My point being the SNP firmly have the (no voting) 'middle classes' in their sights and will pay dearly for those no votes. Essentially if you have you have a decent job and want a nice house you will be hammered for tax. God help us when the socialists get (limited) control on income tax.
I hear you Jim but 300k in Aberdeen is nowt. It should have more refined bands rather than >250k =10% duty.
are the french about to take charge?
The Scottish housing market should not be base on what you can buy in Aberdeen.
for the love of christ and all thats holy please mods kill it before it can regenerate KILL IT!
Hence my request for more refined bands. I'm really starting to think Scotland doesn't want people to do well, work hard, get a decent job and contribute when it would be easier to live elsewhere. If the better off do just leave then society will fall to around the lowest common denominator.
its a 10 year contract with a 5 year break clause. Now consider the Tories aren't going to deliver any powers for at least 3 years. What's your, and incidently labours, point?ernie_lynch - Member
First Group has lost the lucrative ScotRail franchise to a Dutch firm."It is scandalous that just a few weeks after the referendum, and promises from all quarters that the Scottish people would have an increased say in every aspect of their lives, that the continued privatisation of Scotland's railways has been bulldozed through with the SNP colluding with the political elite in Westminster to deny the opportunity for this franchise to be brought back into public ownership.
There is no question that this whole franchising process could and should have been halted, pending the ratification of the post referendum devolution settlement, instead of rushing headlong into a deal that will deny the Scottish people ownership and control of their railways for many years to come"
You are basically quoting labour nonsense. Which if you've been watching the Scottish parliament recently has been ****ing hilarious! 😆 why didn't they nationalise the railways when in office? 😆
yip its mental up there, completely unreflective of the rest of the country.Nobeerinthefridge - Member
The Scottish housing market should not be base on what you can buy in Aberdeen.
What's your, and incidently labours, point?You are basically quoting labour nonsense.
I was quoting the RMT general secretary from the Herald link. The RMT isn't even affiliated to Labour. What's their point ? Self explanatory I would have thought. Have another go :
[i]"It is scandalous that just a few weeks after the referendum, and promises from all quarters that the Scottish people would have an increased say in every aspect of their lives, that the continued privatisation of Scotland's railways has been bulldozed through with the SNP colluding with the political elite in Westminster to deny the opportunity for this franchise to be brought back into public ownership.
There is no question that this whole franchising process could and should have been halted, pending the ratification of the post referendum devolution settlement, instead of rushing headlong into a deal that will deny the Scottish people ownership and control of their railways for many years to come"[/i]
why didn't they nationalise the railways when in office?
Ask them. I am not a Labour supporter and would strongly urge people not to vote Labour.
My point being the SNP firmly have the (no voting) 'middle classes' in their sights
is it true that the middle class voted No?
possibly but it's easier to direct the venom at the middle classes and the rich folk, incidentally wasn't there a lot of crowing about how the nasty bastard tories would punish the Scot's for daring to ask and fail?
If you can afford a £300k house then you can afford a bit more tax. Not going to stop you from eating over the weekend, is it?
Meanwhile, lots of other people in the country can't afford to eat properly.
Ernie I was at a meeting last night with an rmt representative there. There question was put to him that it'd be unrealistic for scotrail to be brought in to public ownership within 5 years anyway and he pretty much agreed. So I think we can put the rmt position down to making themselves noticed. This announcement was always due in October its only been brought forward by a few weeks.
If find it laughable that people this is a tax to Burt them middle classes. Houses aren't that expensive up here. This is a progressive tax that will mean the vast majority of people paying less.
Shock shudder that a foreign company might provide a better solution - do we say the say the same thing when Weir (or other Scottish companies with activities overseas) is winning contracts off foreign governments or that many of the rigs in the NS were built by the Franch and Americans. Veiled xenophobia.
The only good stampt dutyis a zero one - let the property market function properly.
The new housing tax is completely sensible
In the current tax system led to some strange anomalies around the £250k mark
Stamp duty on a £250k house is £2500.
Stamp Duty on a £251k house is £7530.
Now in the salubrious air of the English home counties this isn't a big deal as you can't buy a horsebox for less than £250k. But up in Scotland £250k is around the price of nice family home in a nice area so it effects a lot more sales.
So the new housing tax and the way its applies tax marginally makes a lot more sense.
And everyone wins up to £324k
Shock shudder that a foreign company might provide a better solution -
Except Abelia is owned by the nationalised Dutch railways so we have a state run railway, just run by a foreign state. Now if state run railways are such a good thing, why don't we run them ourselves and not subsidise someone else's railways?
And everyone wins up to £324k
....Unless you live in Edinburgh or Aberdeen.
...Unless you live in Edinburgh or Aberdeen.
Why do people in Edinburgh and Aberdeen paying less then £324k have different tax rules to the rest of Scotland?
Now in the salubrious air of the English home counties this isn't a big deal as you can't buy a horsebox for less than £250k. But up in Scotland £250k is around the price of nice family home in a nice area
You do realise there is more to the UK than Scotland and the Home Counties, don't you?
imnotverygood - Member
And everyone wins up to £324k....Unless you live in Edinburgh or Aberdeen.
Not a very good argument
Average Residential Property Prices in Scotland
Aberdeen City £205,072
Aberdeenshire £225,135
Edinburgh, City of £227,361
Residential Property Median Prices
Aberdeen City £175,338
Aberdeenshire £210,000
Edinburgh, City of £177,317
Someone remind me, how many times have the SNP asked for power of railways to be devolved?
Not very many, but that the whole point of this story regarding the RMT, ie they are making it an issue in the run up to powers being devolved, which I support.whatnobeer - Member
Someone remind me, how many times have the SNP asked for power of railways to be devolved?
I don't particularly see any issue with that, the SNP need to work within constraints of westminster rules, If the SNP adopt the RMTs stance on the back of this, fair do's.
I do think labours position is hilarious though, they are an utter shambles of a party. 😆
I remember them asking a couple of years ago as they were fed up with the system as it is at the moment. The statement about bulldozing the privatization of our railways above is laughable. FWIW I don't know anyone who commutes on that line who isn't pleased with the change.
You do realise there is more to the UK than Scotland and the Home Counties, don't you?
Of course Mols but there wouldn't be much point of comparing parts of England an Wales that have similar house price profiles to Scotland would there?