[Closed] Osbourne says no to currency union.

didn't think gordon had this in him:

didn't think gordon had this in him:

@JY just watch the first 2 minutes then

He was on top form there- looked about 20 years younger.

This is interesting...

http://www.spf.org.uk/2014/09/spf-media-release-independence-referendum-2/

@Northwind, yes it is (link was posted on the other thread fyi) although I think I would be cautious about going out on Thur night/Friday evening.

didn't think gordon had this in him:

+1

didn't think gordon had this in him:

He always had it in him and this level of passion about the NHS isn't new. The only new thing is Murdoch has stopped his cronies printing
shit about him in an attempt to ensure that the tories get in.

Ironry is CMD hates him and has done everything in his power to ruin his reputation, however Gordon Brown is working on saving CMD from the humilation of being the Prime Minister at the helm when the Union started to break up.

It's going to be really interesting to watch what happens if there's a yes vote. It could all be fine and dandy. But if the no's are even only 50% right, it has the potential to be the most horrible car crash.

EDIT: just tiny things for example. What will happen to the dreaded Cumbernauld HMRC office (about 1000 people employed there). They will all presumably be offered the choice of moving south, some will be kept on by the Scottish government (presumably in proportion, so about a tenth) and the rest will be unemployed. And there are probably thousands of things like this.

I wonder, would Gordon Brown end up standing for MSP?
Could end up as First Minister...

I wonder, would Gordon Brown end up standing for MSP?
Could end up as First Minister...

@richc, I don't think CMD hates GB personally but as chancellor for 10 years who oversaw the huge expansion of UK bank credit and the failure to regulate that growth and then as PM encouraged Lloyds to buy Halifax-Bank of Scotland in order to save them from bankruptcy (I assume due to the large numbers of Scottish and Northern based Labour voting employees) a transaction which subsequently nearly destroyed what had been a very successful bank I think Gordon ruined his own reputation. He also famously announced economic boom and bust as over - whoops !

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/17/shetland-may-reconsider-place-scotland-yes-vote-alistair-carmichael ]Shetlands again[/url]

Could 'Westminster' start stirring it in event of a Yes?

Oil-rich Shetland may want to reconsider whether it stays part of an independent Scotland in the event of a yes vote, the Scotland secretary, Alistair Carmichael, has said.

In an interview with the Guardian, Carmichael said if the islands were to vote strongly no but the Scottish national vote was a narrow yes, then a "conversation about Shetland's position and the options that might be open to it" would begin.

The Liberal Democrat MP, who represents Orkney and Shetland in Westminster and has been secretary of state for Scotland in the coalition government since last October, said those options might include the islands modelling themselves on the Isle of Man, which is a self-governing crown dependency, or on the Faroe Islands, which are an autonomous country within the Danish realm.

Asked if he was suggesting that Alex Salmond should not necessarily take for granted that oilfields off Shetland will belong to Scotland in the event of a yes vote, he said: "That would be one of the things that we would want to discuss. I wouldn't like to predict at this stage where the discussions would go."

His comments were echoed by Tavish Scott, Shetland's MSP, who when asked whether Shetland would have to obey the will of Scotland if it voted yes, said: "Will it now? We'll have to look at our options. We're not going to be told what to do by Alex Salmond."

The option of becoming a crown dependency was "something we will look at", Scott said, though he said he ruled out considering full independence for the islands.

The island archipelago, situated more than 100 miles north of mainland Scotland, has traditionally voted strongly against Scottish independence, in part because of its distinctive history: it was part of Norway until the 15th century and is closer to that country's west coast than Edinburgh – in part because the oil industry has made it rich without particular assistance from Edinburgh.

Sullom Voe oil and gas terminal, in the north-west of the island group, is one of the largest in Europe, and handles production from more than two-dozen oilfields in the east Shetland Basin, between Shetland and Norway.

The Wee Blue Book, a widely distributed manifesto for the pro-independence campaign, states that Orkney and Shetland are "legally part of Scotland, and no more entitled to their own 'local' referendum result than Falkirk or Peterhead or Sauciehall Street".

Carmichael said those comments showed no understanding of "Shetland's historic and current political and cultural distinctiveness, and it just demonstrates the lack of respect and tolerance that there is among nationalists for community self-determination".

He said: "I don't want to suggest there's an element of threat here because that's not what this is about. But if the community wants to have a conversation about its position within Scotland and within the UK then we are entitled to do that. What I'm saying to people is: recognise that in this circumstance we might want to have that conversation for ourselves."

I don't like Gordon one bit, but its bloody good to see him speaking with passion again, something that never really came about as Chancellor or PM - its easy to see how he rose to become a proper political bruiser.

Cracking speech.
(Johann Lamont sat behind him thinking "That's my new boss")

If it's a 'No', what will the headlines be: 'Gordon Brown - The Man Who Saved the Union'?

That Shetland thing could lead to a massive car crash for Scotland in the event of a Yes vote... at the very least, I hope the SNP has a contingency plan in place

Good to see which side has ended the whole 8888fest with a negative message today. Tired of lies at last? Now just yS negatively. The mirror doesn't lie.

Fortunately managed to avoid the web/media today.

D- day arrives. What now for a fun thread? Have to go back to being serious now!!!

Duty calls tomorrow. Ladies of Scoltand lead the way. In the privacy of the booth remember the wise counsel of EIIR. Think hard about what you are voting for - it may not be what you think or expect, but this is serious. Kids games are over, this is real.

51/49 - unless the silent majority are really canny then 60/40.

Back to boring bike threads next.

What happens to Salmond if Scotland votes to stay in the Union?

at the very least, I hope the SNP has a contingency plan in place

Didn't AS say he admired Putin? Contingency plan should be fairly obvious given that....

Didn't AS say he admired Putin? Contingency plan should be fairly obvious given that....

Dave, one of our submarines is missing!

(Warning, lots and lots of sweariness!)

A mate from Oz sent me this. Apparently it's circulating there amongst the ABE fraternity.

[i]If Scotland gains its independence in the forthcoming referendum, the remainder of the United Kingdom will be known as the "Former United Kingdom" ...…. or FUK.

In a bid to discourage the Scots from voting 'yes' in the referendum, The Government have now begun to campaign with the slogan "Vote NO - for FUK's sake."

They feel the Scottish voters will be able to relate to this.[/i]

😆

Probably right tbh

brooess

What happens to Salmond if Scotland votes to stay in the Union?

AS is secure as first minister/SNP leader whatever happens CMD is the one who really needs to worry as a yes vote will be his ending.

I'm no fan of Cameron, but why should he resign?
He has arranged a referendum and has promised to abide by the result - what is wrong with that?
Ive not heard any voices other than those of the loony fringe of the Tory party calling for him to go.

Has this whole thing just been a massive great bluff by Salmond to get the devo-max he always believed was best for Scotland?

As an economist, he must have done some sums and realised a lot of what the markets and outside business interests are saying about the implications for an independent Scotland could well come to pass ie: worse rather than better.

CMD wouldn't give him devo-max so Salmond pretended to go all out for full independence whilst deliberately not backing up his assertions with data because he knows that in general Scots are too canny and have too much commonsense to believe his nationalist assertions unless there were some facts to back them up...

In the meantime he guessed that close polls would send Westminster into a mad panic and give him on a plate what they'd previously refused him?

It's a hell of a gamble!

I'm no fan of Cameron, but why should he resign?

The Conservative Party, colloquially referred to as the Tory Party or the Tories, is a centre-right political party in the United Kingdom that states that it espouses the philosophies of conservatism and British unionism.

He cost them the country basically. A person of principle [ say 30 years ago in politics when we had them- applies to all sides] would resign at loosing a vote of this magnitude.
I am surprised more has not been made of it tbh to garner votes. Double whammy 😀
I may be a wee bit biased in the last bit there but he wont survive if it is a yes vote.

meh, you can all have your say now...
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=air.com.redemptionmedia.scotornot

So this is the Yes crowd in George Square a couple of hours ago:

[img] [/img]

And this is the No crowd:

[img] [/img]

Yes, he is doing what you think he's doing.

I just have a fear now that either way the vote goes bloody UKIP is going to make a big deal of it.
If they vote yes it will be the fault of the government, if they vote no and get to keep the Barnett formula and get Devo Max, then UKIP will go nuts about the rest of the UK selling out, and a lot of people will agree
I do think that the Extra subsidy and devo max is going to cause massive issues if the vote goes no. Probably a massive parlimentary rebellion.

I do think that the Extra subsidy and devo max is going to cause massive issues if the vote goes no. Probably a massive parlimentary rebellion.

Cheap shot Ben. There are a few nutters on both sides.

Indeed - and I think there are many a no voter who is hiding (with good reason) the last few days.

Seems to me no-one wins out of this whole sorry mess:
Yes - half of Scotland pissed off with the other half, rUK pissed off with half of Scotland
No - half of Scotland pissed off with the other half and continued 'pressing on' by the SNP for another round of the whole charade in a year's time, and dragging out the resentment...

Joy

Wow, that was some oration by Brown, best by far, by anyone in the campaign

Didn't see any autocue either, could be mistaken on that though.

Cheap shot Ben. There are a few nutters on both sides.

So where's the official No rally, then? If the No side had an ounce of sense, they'd be rushing to disown this lot and show a huge number of friendly, happy No supporters. But they don't.

Bloody hell ben, your levels of disgust and hatred for the union (anyone not scottish) are really quite unpleasant. No wonder a lot of no voters are keeping quiet in scotland.
Are you going to set up your own colony of diminished scotland if the vote goes against you?

So where's the official No rally, then? If the No side had an ounce of sense, they'd be rushing to disown this lot and show a huge number of friendly, happy No supporters. But they don't.

So what is your point ben. That this is the typical No side?

I have a review/catch up with my boss on Friday at 10am (she an ardent 'Yes' complete with en-masse stickered house and car).
I suspect it's going to be short....

Bloody hell ben, your levels of disgust and hatred for the union (anyone not scottish) are really quite unpleasant

Wow. Where have I said I have disgust or hatred for anything or anyone? I have a lot of affection for the Union, I love listening to Radio 4 and think the British Isles are very close culturally, and we have a good shared sense of humour which is important. I just don't think any of us is well served by Westminster, and I think Scotland has a chance for fundamental change for the better.

Or are you one of those people who thinks any criticism of the Westminster government is anti-English? If so, go to bed, please.

So what is your point ben. That this is the typical No side?

No, I know from my own No-voting friends that this is most definitely not typical of No voters. But No voters have been incredibly badly represented by the Better Together campaign (I have my suspicions why), and idiots sensed the vacuum.

Not in the slightest, I despise the westminster government in its entirety.
If you cannot see how your own views come across then I think you are well surrounded by your colleagues in the yes campaign.
I am sure that you can be aware that you do not have to explicitly describe your dislike of something to make it incredibly obvious.
Just making an observation, but clearly you do not appreciate an opposing version of your world view.
Have a good day tomorrow however it goes.

So this is the Yes crowd in George Square a couple of hours ago:

And this is the No crowd:

Yes, he is doing what you think he's doing.

Yet again this is the kind of selective BS that you'd never shut up complaining about if it was being done the other way round. You really don't do yourself or the Yes campaign any favours with posts like this.

Ben does not hate the Union nor the English anymore than THM hates the Scottish.
They have political views which are not a result of racism which sums up everyone on here.

It is not the wisest post we will see on here [ Bens that is] but not worth making a big deal over.

Just making an observation, but clearly you do not appreciate an opposing version of your world view.

Sheesh, stop being so melodramatic - I'm trying to have a grown up discussion here 😉

I'm happy with opposing views, I like them - that's why I like having discussions on here.

Junkyard - Where did I say it was racism?
The cretins in the pic above are far worse.
Was just pointing out how I percieved some of the rhetoric comes across on here.
Sorry but if you don't like it then bad luck

Sums it up well. YS colours come out load and clear in the end!!! Classy. Is that what H-W represents???

Brooes - previous post lost on the train. AS doesn't worry if there's a NO. He can carry on spouting sh1te and blaming the English. His real concern is a YES. That's the point the Emperor's New Clothes will be fully exposed and he will be fully revealed for all to see.

Positives - level of actual engagement
negatives - a major debate framed by deceit, lies and BS

Everyone deserved so much better.

No, Ben is not a racist as far as I can tell. He has his legitimate views and puts them across well.
There is going to be enough recriminations and angst in the coming weeks whichever way the vote goes.

OK so he hatred for anyone not scottish but you were not suggesting racism
Fine as we were

Backs away from the thread and this little sidebar.
I dont want to get involved in this tbh

So where's the official No rally, then? If the No side had an ounce of sense, they'd be rushing to disown this lot and show a huge number of friendly, happy No supporters. But they don't.

I suspect that being told for the umpteenth time won't make any difference. But here goes anyway.

A large portion of no voters have keeping quiet and avoiding expressing their opinions. Quite often they wait for Yes voters to leave the area before actually discussing the referendum, if they discus it at all.

Even myself as a very marginal voter have only expressed my voting intention to one person in person, and only then because he contributes to this thread.

Your consistent habit of finding the worst examples of people that happen to disagree with you is unsettling at best.

Didn't realise the scottish were a race, but anyhow.
Good luck to everyone however the vote goes tomorrow.
I hope the union stays but it will work out however.

I'm happy with opposing views

I don't think anyone has a problem with you supporting the Yes campaign - it's the constant attempts to imply that essentially Yes voters are better people than No voters that gets extremely tedious.

I don't think anyone has a problem with you supporting the Yes campaign - it's the constant attempts to imply that essentially Yes voters are better people than No voters that gets extremely tedious.

+1 and adding an emoticon after someone pulls you up on it doesn't make it ok

[pantomime voice] oh yes it does 😛

JOKE - not a serious point laugh or ignore

+1 or in some way more patriotic. Gullible, possibly, more patriotic, hogwash

grum - Member

it's the constant attempts to imply that essentially Yes voters are better people than No voters that gets extremely tedious.

Of course, the constant assertions that voters are easily deceived, just following their hearts and ignoring logic while shouting FREEDOM, that it's all about hatred of the English, that we "haven't thought this through", that two and a half million people are going to vote Yes but really just want devo max, etc have remained fresh and entertaining throughout.

[pantomime voice] oh yes it does

JOKE - not a serious point laugh or ignore

Feel the wrath of my offendednessness 😈

Northwind - Member
...the constant assertions that no voters are.....

Or that we point that you are so pissed (already) that you can't spell YES. 😉 (saved for posterity after the edit)

Might explain the earlier post though

Bloody hell ben, your levels of disgust and hatred for the union (anyone not scottish) are really quite unpleasant. No wonder a lot of no voters are keeping quiet in scotland.
Are you going to set up your own colony of diminished scotland if the vote goes against you?

I think he's just a kid so I wouldn't get too upset

Courtesy of Wyatt Wendels, of Planet Rock fame...

Spare a thought for The Proclaimers
If Scotland gets it's independence they won't be able to walk 500 miles anymore.

I think he's just a kid so I wouldn't get too upset

Pretty sure he's a grown up that makes weird looking bikes.

I'll wrap up my thoughts on the referendum here:

muddydwarf - Member
I'm no fan of Cameron, but why should he resign?
He has arranged a referendum and has promised to abide by the result - what is wrong with that?...

Regardless of the result, and despite my contempt for the way the No campaign has been conducted, I will always give Cameron credit for allowing us to have a democratic vote on the future of our country.

brooess - Member
Seems to me no-one wins out of this whole sorry mess:
Yes - half of Scotland pissed off with the other half, rUK pissed off with half of Scotland
No - half of Scotland pissed off with the other half and continued 'pressing on' by the SNP for another round of the whole charade in a year's time, and dragging out the resentment...

I think you are a victim of media bullshit. I don't know anyone who is going to be bearing ill will to their neighbours whichever way it goes. The lack of antagonism has been pointed out several times and this is backed up by the letter the police chiefs have issued chiding the press for trying to whip up strife where there is none. Tomorrow there will be the odd bampot (probably drunk) on either side who will do something, but you'll only hear it if it is a Yes supporter.

Earlier in the thread, there was mention of the queen's part. I'm biased, and you'll probably have guessed I'm a republican, but I think her behaviour has been exemplary. Think carefully is good advice, and whichever way you vote, it's better that you have carefully thought it over.

I expect a win tomorrow, but if it is a No, I'll be at a No party getting the piss ripped out of me. (And you think you lot are a tough crowd 🙂 )

The consolation if it is a No win, is that we now have an incredible percentage of the Scots actively involved in the political process. This can only be good.

Politics won't be the same again in Scotland.

bencooper
But No voters have been incredibly badly represented by the Better Together campaign

I agree with you on that.

I expect a win tomorrow, but if it is a No, I'll be at a No party getting the piss ripped out of me. (And you think you lot are a tough crowd )

But epic, he who laughs last....

With a NO, you win. Why? You get the result (in reality) you all secretly want. A YES, you don't. The ultimate irony of the whole episode.

teamhurtmore - Member

(saved for posterity after the edit)

Well you know, with all these promises of more power and more money in the last week or so it's got a bit harder to tell the two apart 😉

epicyclo
I expect a win tomorrow, but if it is a No, I'll be at a No party getting the piss ripped out of me. (And you think you lot are a tough crowd  )

The consolation if it is a No win, is that we now have an incredible percentage of the Scots actively involved in the political process. This can only be good.

Politics won't be the same again in Scotland.

+1. (I never thought I would be in agreement)

Of course, the constant assertions that voters are easily deceived, just following their hearts and ignoring logic while shouting FREEDOM, that it's all about hatred of the English, that we "haven't thought this through", that two and a half million people are going to vote Yes but really just want devo max, etc have remained fresh and entertaining throughout.

Not really the same as a generalised view that one side is morally superior to the other though.

of course it is different when your side is doing the insulting rather than being insulted - well said

of course it is different when your side is doing the insulting rather than being insulted - well said

🙄

As persuasive as your original explanation and just as well argued
Be serious Grum, both sides have been insulted and insulted and neither side is the "better" or more noble insulter.

The evidence is on pretty much every page of this thread.

You get the result (in reality) you all secretly want

The vote hasn't even happened yet and we all ready have Tories threatening to scupper any plans for more devolution, never mind the fact that none of the 3 main parties could even agree on what extra powers we should get.

I'd be very surprised if Scotland actually gets the extra powers that you seem to think we all actually want to much.

Well on the basis of one rogue (?) poll they panicked and started making stupid suggestions that make a mockery of the democratic balance in the UK, so for a change good for the Tory backbenchers. The No campaign should have simply laid things out clearly from the start and left yS to condemn themselves out of their own mouths. Instead we have to find out the hard way.

Anyway - hats of to Ben for the incredible enduring optimism and hilarious posts. Despite getting the wrong end of the stick ( 😉 ) the star of the thread. Bravo mon brave!

As persuasive as your original explanation and just as well argued
Be serious Grum, both sides have been insulted and insulted and neither side is the "better" or more noble insulter.

The evidence is on pretty much every page of this thread.

Yes there have been insults on both sides - but I don't recall any No supporters persistently adopting the tone of moral superiority that bencooper does. Or complaining incessantly about bias and insults while displaying plenty of both.

Interesting that piemonster agrees - despite not having a 'side'.

Frankly the reason I focus on bencooper's posts is because I expected better from him. Slightly worrying to see what happens to otherwise seemingly sensible people on such an emotive issue.

If Scotland votes No, and If extra powers are offered to Scotland then it should only be done on the condition that the same powers are offered to the rest of the UK.

was this done before if so sorry.
[img] [/img]

I think he's just a kid so I wouldn't get too upset

That's the nicest thing anyone's said to me all week 😉

(I'm 37, by the way)

The honest answer is we're all keyboard warriors. In real life I had a good chat with a No-voting friend earlier, and we both wished each other good luck. Neither of us have seen any examples of rudeness, insults or bitterness from either side, this whole campaign has been remarkably civilised on both sides.

I don't recall any No supporters persistently adopting the tone of moral superiority that bencooper does

Neither do I - but I didn't realise that saying Nazi salutes were bad is an example of moral superiority. I don't think the Yes side is morally superior at all, we just have a different vision for this country, just as we think Scotland is different to the UK. Different, not superior.

Anyway, what it said about No voters being very badly served by Better Together. Most No voters I know are old-style Labour people, people who would probably happily use the word Socialist, and think that New Labour stole their party. They think we should stay in the Union because a working-class person in Glasgow has more in common with a working-class person in Manchester than they do with a middle-class person in Edinburgh. It's a view I can see a strong argument for.

The problem is that also leads to the inevitable conclusion that all the main political parties need to be swept away and a new better system of government installed. Which would be great, I'd vote for that. Problem is that those main political parties are backing Better Together, so there's no way they can use those views.

Interesting that piemonster agrees - despite not having a 'side'.

There are plenty of examples of posts being made painting the opposite camp in an unfair bad light. I may even have done it myself. Ben is not the worst offender, but he's the most consistent for it.

I think the Panzer Wagon Bread maker was the worst that comes to mind. At a wild guess.

I do have a side, but it's nothing to do with Scotland. Scotland's a coincidence.

Neither do I - but I didn't realise that saying Nazi salutes were bad is an example of moral superiority.

'So this is the Yes crowd in George Square a couple of hours ago:
And this is the No crowd:
Yes, he is doing what you think he's doing.'

You were quite clearly making a generalisation there about No supporters - there's really no other way to read that post. And that's far from the only example.

I don't think the Yes side is morally superior at all

That's the theme of pretty much all of your posts on here.

There are plenty of examples of posts being made painting the opposite camp in an unfair bad light. I may even have done it myself. Ben is not the worst offender, but he's the most consistent for it.

Yup and I've seen more extreme examples from No supporters on here, some of whom just come across as idiots - but as I said it's the constant repetition of it from someone who had previously seemed quite reasonable that winds me up.

It's interesting, after talking to lots of people both Yes and No, ive come to a general conclusion: people vote No for selfish reasons, and vote Yes for altruistic ones.

http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/osbourne-says-no-to-currency-union/page/193

That's the theme of pretty much all of your posts on here.

I'm sorry you see it that way, it's certainly not intended.

Final poll that doesn't count

Ipsos Moron - Yes 48% No 52%

Am I the only one who is slightly cynical of the number of people on both sides who are being quoted on the BBC's live feed saying they gave swapped at the last minute? I think I'll try it here.

I genuinely wanted Alex Salmond to have my babies, but then No's point about who would get our embassies made me see the light about 3 hours ago. I'm VOTING NO!!!!