[Closed] Osbourne says no to currency union.

dragon - Member
...I just think it's sad some people are prepared to believe utterly wrong propaganda.

I agree.

It's atrocious what the UK govt and the establishment's vested interests are stooping to. It's almost as if they don't think democracy is a good thing.

Only 211 days to go before this thread expires...

Oh dear god make it stop

The Bank of Scotland is part of Lloyd's BUT is a separate subsidiary head quartered in Edinburgh. As such it would be the responsibility of Scotland under independence. RBS is more complicated since it is registered and headquartered in Scotland but operates through a variety of branches and subsidiaries. In that case, each legal entity is treated separately eg RBS is treated as Scottish but Nat West is treated as rUK.

The article is all ifs and buts and maybe's, with figures plucked from thin air.

“In the case of the RBS, I’m not sure of the exact numbers, but [b]roughly[/b] speaking 90% of its operations are in England and 10% are in Scotland

[b]Roughly[/b] when you are talking about billions of pounds and peoples livelihoods, doesn't really cut it for analysis.

piemonster - Member

Oh dear god make it stop

Don't worry, we will... 😆

I, for one, am enjoying all the discussion about whether an independent Scotland would have the capacity to bail out banks without considering the distinction between deposit-taking and investment banking activities, and whether states ought to be in the bank bailing out business at all.

epicyclo - Member
Only 211 days to go before this thread expires...
POSTED 1 HOUR AGO # REPORT-POST

That article up there....

Wasn't Salmond in favour of less regulation of the financial sector rather than more (along with undercutting rUK corporation tax)?

It's funny how when it gets pointed out that some of the pro stuff is full of holes people just ignore it and blithely keep on posting it. But when it's the other way round it's apparently all the fault of a sinister campaign of bullying and manipulation by the evil antis.

I Still find it hard to believe that the yes supporters can claim rUK would have to renegotiate into EU and not give it's residents a vote in the referendum?

Interesting take on democracy to think 10% of a countries population can dictate the European future of of the remaining 90%, who are excluded from even the right to put a cross against their choice at the ballot box.

Pro European voters in England, Wales and NI may have thought Nigel Farage was the main threat to it remaining in the EU. Who would have thought it was his kindred spirit in the North that was the real threat.

On currency, the SNP were quick to tell us how much George Osborne's heinous decision will cost English business. £500m I think. John Swinney was asked to tell listeners today how much the Tory chancellor will cost Scottish businesses. He repeatedly failed to put a figure on it. He must know? I would have thought he would have jumped at the chance to put a cost to Scotland of this bullying act. I think the truth is that rUK businesses may blame Osborne, but SNP are equally liable in the eyes of business in Scotland.

Didn't the CBI say earlier that whilst cross border restrictions on currency etc may cost UK businesses trading with Scotland, it was still a smaller risk to business than signing up to a Currency Union?

I Still find it hard to believe that the yes supporters can claim rUK would have to renegotiate into EU and not give it's residents a vote in the referendum?

I don't know if that was an entirely serious suggestion - it's certainly never something I've suggested. But it's also a little bit hard to believe that the EU would kick out Scotland - it'd be a big load of hassle for a country that's been in the EU for decades, and would likely be readmitted pretty quickly.

But anyhow, this is another of those "facts" that is really more of a political negotiating position than a hard fact.

You haven't ben, although I have heard from a few sources. epicyclo did most recently on page 28 (20 hours ago). Sorry I can't cut and paste properly.

it'd be a big load of hassle for a country that's been in the EU for decades

Scotland is a country in the EU?

http://www.eucountrylist.com

Ah, are we back to the "Scotland isn't a country" argument? Okay, Scottish people and companies have been in a country that has been a member of the EU for decades, is that a better way of phrasing it?

athgray - Member
You haven't ben, although I have heard from a few sources. epicyclo did most recently on page 28 (20 hours ago). Sorry I can't cut and paste properly.

I was quoting an article in the Guardian which raises the spectre of the new states all round.

There's also the UK govt's "Opinion: Referendum on the Independence of Scotland – International Law Aspects
Professor James Crawford SC Professor Alan Boyle"

From the executive summary looking at possible results of a split:

3.1 Most likely, the rUK would be considered the continuator of the UK for all international purposes and Scotland a new state.
3.2 Some states have dissolved entirely into new states, leaving no continuator.
3.3 Reversion to a previous independent state such as the pre-1707 Scottish state
may not be excluded.

You'll note they think it's most likely that there will be a continuing state, the UK, but it's not set in stone.

As I've said earlier, politics will settle this rather than what's strictly by the book but if there's disagreement about the split it will provide just the sort of stoush that Salmond enjoys.

I can't answer why Westminster hasn't seen fit to give the rest of the country a say, but possibly they view it like a divorce where either party can leave whether the other likes it or not.

Edit:

If you believe in democracy, then the opinion of the residents of a country is the only qualification that's necessary for whether it's a country or not.

Don't worry, we will...

Not quick enough I fear.

Think I'm going to just camp out (in a probably fairly substantial) snow cave on Carn An Righ until it's all over.

Have we done funding of sport yet?

I wonder how well the ice bowls team would be getting on without National Lottery funding.

🙂

Ben,

But it's also a little bit hard to believe that the EU would kick out Scotland

There's going to be a load of negotiations for Scottish entry with other countries in the EU. Possibly it will be waved through. Possibly though some countries will insist that Scotland sign up to the Schengen agreement, or the Euro (and not that "signing-up-but-not-really-going-to-do-so" we've been hearing about), or agreements about fisheries, or whatever.

Perhaps whoever is in charge of Scotland will agree to these terms, and Scotland will then become a member of the EU. Or perhaps they will manage to get the same opt-outs that the current UK has - and Scotland will become a member of the EU. Or perhaps Scotland will refuse to agree to some demand, the other EU states won't compromise, and Scotland will be stuck out in the cold until the problem is resolved, or forever.

Ah, are we back to the "Scotland isn't a country" argument?

Well it isn't really a country in the EU - which is why you don't see it in the list of EU countries. 😕

Again - if people in the 'no' camp made tenuous claims like that without qualification you'd be all over them.

Okay, Scottish people and companies have been in a country that has been a member of the EU for decades, is that a better way of phrasing it?

Yes - and it's a fairly crucial distinction surely.

But it's also a little bit hard to believe that the EU would kick out Scotland

Emotive and inaccurate language being used there? I don't think it's a question of Scotland being 'kicked out' - it's that it will be a new country that doesn't automatically get membership.

We haven't done sport because despite quite a bit of investment Scotland is generally terrible right now when it comes to the main sports. Wales have been out preforming them recently in football, Rugby, cricket, cycling you name it. Also most of the best Scottish sports stars are based in England or elsewhere.

wonder how well the ice bowls team would be getting on without National Lottery funding

They can just put an extra 10p on the price of a deep fat fried mars bar and easily cover a few £100m for an international level sports development system.

epicyclo, if you were to turn up at EU negotiations and announce that in the event of Catalan independence you reckon Spain would have to re apply to the EU, you had better have a lot more to secure Spains vote than slamming a North Sea haddock on the table as a sweetener. You might as well take along Captain Birdseye with a couple of pool balls in a sock.

From The Scotsman's leader

If Mr Salmond wants to keep hopes of a currency union alive, then he needs to be able to offer an iron-clad proposal that will extinguish all possibility of taxpayers south of the Border being asked to pay for a Scottish bail-out. So far, what he has set out does not do that.

[b]To threaten that in retaliation, Scotland will not take on any share of the UK debt built up while Scotland was a member of the Union is vacuous. [/b]Financial markets care little for debating points that this would not be a technical default, they would see a country failing to honour debts for which it has benefited – preventing an almighty bank bust, and building new infrastructure – and penalise Scotland accordingly, which would mean increased costs for borrowing for everybody.

The world is waking up to reality!

The world is waking up to reality!

I think most of the world already realised AS was 99% BS.

athgray - Member
epicyclo, if you were to turn up at EU negotiations and announce that in the event of Catalan independence you reckon Spain would have to re apply to the EU, you had better have a lot more to secure Spains vote than slamming a North Sea haddock on the table as a sweetener.

Different circumstance. No haddock required.

It looks like the Germans agree [url= http://www.eu-infothek.com/article/ein-demokratisches-europa-sollte-auch-sezessionen-erlauben ]eu-infothek[/url]

This English parliament people refer to, when did this happen? I missed regional devolution and didn't get to vote on it!
How insulting to our partners in Wales and Northern Ireland that contribute to administering/governing the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland to give it its full title. Don't insult the near neighbours when attempting to make your own way in the world. It's rude and the arse you kick today may well be the one you need to kiss tomorrow.
It looks like UK will continue after secession as the Norther Ireland bit will be staying behind. We'll (the English and Welsh) have to re-apply when Sinn Fein manage to negotiate their secession!

Can't wait.

If you believe in democracy, then the opinion of the residents of a country is the only qualification that's necessary for whether it's a country or not.

Just had a look at the link epicyclo. Think I got the jist of it through google translate. It is German based, they may be broadly supportive. It does not reveal anything, however about how Spain may feel following your compellingly researched legal advice stating 'rump' states having to reapply for EU membership.

You can consider yourself grateful that you currently live in a UK that you feel gives the power to Scots alone through the referendum, to not only decide a future path for Scotland but for the remaining 55 million with out any say so from them. You should perhaps kiss CMD's backside rather than kick it.

As I understand Spain has no plan to allow only the Catalans to choose independence. The vote would be for all of Spain. If you have sympathy for the nationalist cause of Catalonia, I am sure they won't thank you for your research.

I will stress that I don't know how nations would vote in ascesion for Scotland to the EU, but the poitical naivety of some of Scotlands politicians when removed from their small pond is worrying.

I still reckon you will need that trawler net. Happy fishing 😉

Sandwich - Member
...How insulting to our partners in Wales and Northern Ireland that contribute to administering/governing the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland to give it its full title. Don't insult the near neighbours when attempting to make your own way in the world...

Your partners did not sign the 1707 Treaty of Union. England which represented their interest did. Hence the references to just England and Scotland, but just in that context.

...and the arse you kick today may well be the one you need to kiss tomorrow...

Excellent point, good thing for the rUK to remember too.

You also insinuated that not allowing the whole of the UK a vote in the referendum showed a lack of democratic values towards it's people.

I wonder how you would feel if Scotland was removed from the UK, following a vote of the whole UK, and a majority if Scots supporting it?

Wife is saying that there is a thread on mumsnet entitled,

"Am I being unreasonable to think Alex Salmond is in his own private dream world?"

Come on the mums!

mods are you there???

I think what this thread needs is TJ to be brought back, no really he'd have bashed the shite out of everyone on here

[quote=kimbers ]I think what this thread needs is TJ to be brought back, no really he'd have bashed the shite out of everyone on here

😆 as much as I support the idea of TJ coming back, this thread would be a complete train crash with his contributions - you have to wonder whether the mods are waiting until after the referendum to let him back!

Ah mumsnet looked at a bit of the thread and they have a good stooshie going there too. Athgray your post reminded me of the penis beaker thread which was about the funniest thread I saw last year. ..with the exception of the wife signal thread 🙂

Dp

athgray - Member
...I wonder how you would feel if Scotland was removed from the UK, following a vote of the whole UK, and a majority if Scots supporting it?

I would be forever grateful to my UK benefactors. 🙂

I see there's still plenty of playing the man (Salmond) going on. It's not really relevant. He heads up a party that is for the purpose of independence, but if he was abducted by aliens tomorrow it wouldn't make any difference, the independence movements would continue.

There's a whole lot more to the the independence movement than the SNP. There's Labour for Independence, LibDems for independence, Scottish Socialists for independence, and a whole lot of other similar splinter groups hiving off from the main parties. It's a very broad church.

We're now going in circles, so you'll all be glad to hear I am banning myself from further contributions to this thread. I'm off on a pilgrimage south to find TJ to get lessons from the master in STW discussions... 🙂

[quote=epicyclo ]I see there's still plenty of playing the man (Salmond) going on.

I suspect you're mistaking playing the man's arguments for playing the man. Yes there has been a bit of slagging of him, but mainly in the context of him not making a very good case.

Epicyclo,if there are lots of personal attacks on AS as here is a microcosm,then the no vote will be able to take peoples attention away from their hitherto extremely negative campaign.

Missed the last couple of days so help me get back up to speed.
Does this thread not now consists of approx 80% English contributers explaining to/convincing each other why we won't get x and y? Throw in the odd racial stereotype(deep fried mars bar,hilarious!)and attempts to now portray the yes campaign as the bullies(by comparing their tactics to the way the no camp has carried itself,an obviously good example) Hmm...this thread has become a mirror image of the actual campaign.
The suggestion that the rest of the UK should get a vote is being circulated every couple of pages...Mind you, vote on what? As we have also had detailed explanations on why Scotland is not even a country thus far on this thread,with a discussion from two of our Southern Correspondents on whether it did or did not have any distinctive culture.( I think they both melted in a pool of selective quotations of each other's posts)
Apparently lottery funding for the Scottish ice bowls team would also be cut off...And finally the currency/EU argument is mostly being fought by bcooper and epicylo against teamhurtmore's elite team of cut and pasters.

Got everything?

(deep fried mars bar,hilarious!)

Absolutely right, you Scots have moved on. The Dunkeld Fish Bar now serves deep fried 'Turkish Delight'

To be fair, I've not tried the 'deep fried' option yet. I keep seeing it. The deep fried pizza looks intimidating.

Genuine question, what the hell are these things like? Any good? Feel I should try one at least once.

Edit: if your passing and are after a fish supper. The chipper in Dunkeld is recommended.

Duckman, look at my posts since since I pointed out the flaw in epicyclos EU membership argument. No cut and pastes from me, the only mention of dear leader by me, was to point out a thread was running on mumsnet.

Go back a couple of pages you will see my post regarding the need for the no camp to grab the devo max ground to appeal to what voters actually want.

Did you give such a fleeting cursory glance and incorrect assessment of the white paper?

The summary - the key assumptions behind the yS campaign are being exposed, questioned and falsified. Not just by the No campaign but by wider and more informed bodies. The resulting nakedness is leaving AS and his supporters feeling exposed so they use diversions instead - cure constant misuse of technical terms, lies, attempted ridicule and subterfuge.

From many pages back, it "would be funny where the issue not so serious."

Does this thread not now consists of approx 80% English contributers explaining to/convincing each other why we won't get x and y? Throw in the odd racial stereotype(deep fried mars bar,hilarious!)and attempts to now portray the yes campaign as the bullies(by comparing their tactics to the way the no camp has carried itself,an obviously good example) Hmm...this thread has become a mirror image of the actual campaign.

You missed out the bit where yes supporters repeatedly post links to misleading or just plain factually wrong articles that support their view, then either get huffy or stick their fingers in their ears when this is pointed out.

grum - Member
You missed out the bit where yes supporters repeatedly post links to misleading or just plain factually wrong articles that support their view, then either get huffy or stick their fingers in their ears when this is pointed out.

like I said we need TJ he wouldve done it so well that everyone wouldve just walked away!

Then there's the bit where interesting articles or evidence is posted, and people say they're misleading or factually wrong without coming up with much evidence why 😉

Deep fried pizza is wonderful - you've had a fried slice? Like that, but pizza-sized.

Well the last one you posted: I don't know enough about the way banks' nationality is defined to comment on that, but the way he says 'I'm not going to suggest that an independent Scotland would have regulated the banks much better', then keeps doing exactly that, with absolutely zero evidence, means that there is a strong stench of BS about the whole thing.

Especially when I believe AS was in favour of lighter-touch regulation of the financial sector.

Grum, you don't "need" to say "I believe" - he did, I quoted his words ad verbatim earlier. He viewed (r)UKregulation as cumbersome, excessive and costly to business. Surprised he didn't call it a "tax" 😉 But like any chancer who flips with the wind, he now accuses "London" of being (ir)responsible and then compounds the insult to our intelligence by deliberately confusing Vickers recommendations on ring-fencing and the different legal treatment of branches and subsidiaries. The article quoted earlier about funny that RBS is now Scottish is a classic example of this. Where does that come from? The pretence that it IS NOW RUK not Scottish as AS used to proclaim. As we like to say on STW, oh the ironing!

Wee eck likes to posture about the Scottish people and this proud nation who don't like to be told what to do. But he demeans them and insults their intelligence by the constant use of BS and subterfuge. No wonder the word bluster and bluff trip so easily off his tongue - I guess he looks in the mirror every morning.

BikePawl - Member

bencooper - Member

The Scottish Parliament can't ask, as it doesn't represent an existing member state. The UK government could ask, but have chosen not to.

Yes I understand that the Scottish Parliament can't ask, but have they asked Westminster to ask the question for them. It seems that would be the official way to do it.

So does anyone know anything about this?

For the record deep fried pizza's are hideous, avoid.

Deep fried haggis however is wonderful especially after a skinful! A staple for close of play on a Friday/Saturday night.

I miss the quality of Scottish fish (and the size of portions) in a "fish supper" compared with the the standard fish and chips down south.

I can't see why there needs to be any debate.
Surely if you are Scottish you know in your heart which way to vote, money shouldn't enter into it.
If we were ruled by Paris I'd vote for london rule any day.

and therein seems to lie the basis of the yes campaign. 🙁
that and the 'we're sick of the tyranny of the english, but we're entitled to the tyranny of the europeans'.
swapping one remote governing body for another. go on lads.
a sad, expensive, waste of time and energy. IMHO.

grum - Member

You missed out the bit where yes supporters repeatedly post links to misleading or just plain factually wrong articles that support their view, then either get huffy or stick their fingers in their ears when this is pointed out.

@duckman it's hard for the no campaign not to appear negative as the most compelling arguments for remaining in the union is how much worse off Scotland is going to be if she leaves. It's very difficult not to attack AS and the SNP as they are talking so much BS. It's hard to convince people that the situation they have today is actually quite good.

On banks it is a great pity that BOS and RBS didn't remain Scottish, the cost to the UK of bailing out their folly has been quite enormous and we are still paying for it. The fact is the Scottish management of these banks knew that the domestic market was way too small and so expanded aggressively first in the UK (Halifax and Nat West acquisitions respectively) and then more broadly globally (purchase of US assets and ABN Amro respectively) and as a result blew up. As it stands Scotland has no banks or any size/note. I don't see how an independent country can have no banks, it's not practicable to try and start one from scratch.

I'd be interested to know how many of the supporters of the No campaign on this thread actually have a vote.

that and the 'we're sick of the tyranny of the english, but we're entitled to the tyranny of the europeans'.
swapping one remote governing body for another. go on lads.

This is just a wrong headed argument. There is a big difference between being a sovereign state within a trading and political framework and just being a region of another state.

Right now the UK is like a bunch of passengers and 1 driver in a car. The EU is setting the rules of the road, the speed limit, what side we drive on etc. But its the driver (the South East and London) that is deciding where the car goes.

Scotland is fed up being driven around and wants its own car. It knows it still has to drive by the rules of the road but really just want a chance to move along the road at its own pace and driving in its own way.

Its the best analogy I can come up with to try and demonstrate how being part of the EU and being part of the UK are not the same thing

The summary - the key assumptions behind the yS campaign are being exposed, questioned and falsified. Not just by the No campaign but by wider and more informed bodies. The resulting nakedness is leaving AS and his supporters feeling exposed so they use diversions instead - cure constant misuse of technical terms, lies, attempted ridicule and subterfuge.

Wee eck likes to posture about the Scottish people and this proud nation who don't like to be told what to do. But he demeans them and insults their intelligence by the constant use of BS and subterfuge

Show a politician who does not do this? There a handful , if that, that would we class as honest and consistent and I am struggling to name them.
GO agreeing to match Labour spending pre slump then blaming their policies on it, failing to meet any of his financial targets, changing them lengthening them , blaming the EU zone then taking credit when the boom follows the slump [ not party political they would all do this to be clear]- is this any better in terms of integrity
Show me a politician who has not spun some scenario to support their position then distanced themselves when it goes wrong?

To single out AS for this - as if CMD, GO and the no campaign [ or frankly any politician of any hue from any country] are some sort of paragon of honest purveyors of truth - they even called their plan Operation Fear to hint at their objective.

I agree with the above folk will vote largely with their hearts then sort out the politics/economics afterwards

Neither side is going to end up with what they are saying is happening so the criticism could be thrown at both sides

Jamabalaya not sure your correct there. BOS is a subsidiary of Lloyd's and as such would be regulated by a Scottish body not the PRA/FCA. RBS is registered and HQed in Scotland. Branches of RBS would "belong" to Scotland, subsidiaries would not (from a legal and regulatory perspective).

Being part of the UK and the EU are not the same thing. Precisely, the former is a currency union that satisfied the criteria for a shared currency and largely works very effectively. The latter is partially, and moving towards more of, a currency union that doesn't satisfy the criteria and is working very poorly. Cue economic malaise, non eclected governments and PMs and mass unemployment in periphery countries. Be careful what you wish for.

The good news about the EU is at least you wouldn't be cow-towing to a Englishman/woman 😉 You could however find the EU sanctioning someone who has not even been elected an MP to be the prime minister and run the government. This is the more accountable framework you want to tie yourselves to. Bizarre.

[anyone can feel free to ignore the fact that the civil service are the very people who are giving the three UK politicians their advice and feel equally free to question the impartiality of the civil service!]

As ironic as your post above is,

Not sure what this bit means. 😕

yes supporters on here don't have the monopoly on that.

Certainly not - but according to many on here it seems any 'no' argument is both automatically wrong and part of a cynical conspiracy, whereas any 'yes' argument seems to be accepted uncritically.

Trying to tease out factual information from all the bluster on both sides is very difficult - perhaps because so much of this is posturing, guesswork and supposition about what might happen.

Right now the UK is like a bunch of passengers and 1 driver in a car. The EU is setting the rules of the road, the speed limit, what side we drive on etc. But its the driver (the South East and London) that is deciding where the car goes.

Scotland is fed up being driven around and wants its own car.

[img] [/img]

I think he is suggesting their is not much debate and not much changing of minds from both sides on here - neither side is listening basically- the problem being, as you note

Trying to tease out factual information from all the bluster on both sides is very difficult - perhaps because so much of this is guesswork and supposition about what might happen.

It probably better to blame both sides [ though its rUK who have refused to negotiate before the vote so what can AS/Yes cmapign do?] for this rather than demonising AS.

I am not sure why you need to keep caricaturing/straw manning/ad homing those you disagree with so much tbh

None of it is helpful - of course all sides are doing it as are many on here] but it wont help us tease out facts [ there are few as rUK wont discuss]

I am not sure why you need to keep caricaturing/straw manning/ad homing those you disagree with so much tbh

[img] [/img]

😛

Rebel 12,

I guess sneering from the sidelines is to be expected when you don't actually have a vote

Ahead of the Scottish independence referendum, to inform the debate about Scotland’s constitutional future, the UK government is undertaking a programme of analysis on Scotland’s place in the UK and how it contributes to and benefits from being part of the UK. The work will provide people in Scotland with the facts and figures that are currently unknown or taken for granted, and explain how the UK in its current form works.

https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/scotland-analysis

People should at least tackle the facts rather that pretending that the UK government has not undertaken legal advice, presented the reasons why Scotland is better as part of the UK or been prepared to debate. Silly to throw ad hom accusation when AS is the guy who wants to personalise the debate issue to being between him and an "English Tory Toff" with a blue stripe on his black tie.

Choosing to ignore facts doesn't make them go away. Most of the recent stuff was argued 12-18 months ago with documented evidence widely available from the government giving the reasons. * Salmond chose to ignore it in the BOD and is now being reminded of the facts by a wide range if parties. The arrogance and the bullying comes from effectively one person with his fingers in his ears. Scotland and rUK deserves better.

* there is also the excellent McCrone book which presents both sides of the arguments pretty dispassionately.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Scottish-Independence-Weighing-Up-Economics/dp/178027159X

Cheap at the price.

@ Grum I am being polite on this thread and I tend to do it when folk do it to me but yes I am not immune to some "robust" debate - neither are you.

However in a debate it is pointless to debate if you cannot understand the other sides position [ even if you disagree with it]

People should at least tackle the facts

rather that pretending that the UK government has not undertaken legal advice

, presented the reasons why Scotland is better as part of the UK

or been prepared to debate.

https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/scotland-analysis

Sorry but I don't see what makes that link any more factual than the SNP white paper. Are you seriously passing that off as an open,set in stone explanation of exactly how it will all pass? That is just as fanciful as our wish list,you are well aware that the truth will lie in the middle.

Surely if you are Scottish you know in your heart which way to vote, money shouldn't enter into it.

If you view the state as a mechanism for social advancement, consider the economic factors because they're one of the biggest determinants if whether the state will achieve its objectives. If you want to have your heart warmed, download a Renee Zellweger film.

Why wont the David Cameron debate with Scotland over independence?

Because the rest of the UK does not get a vote - that's why. This is a matter for the Scottish people to decide that's all.

Okay we enjoy a good debate on here, and yes the referendum result will affect us all to some degree, but do the people of Scotland really want the rest of the UK sticking their noses into an affair which is purely Scotland's to vote on?

Debating with someone as slippery and unstable as Alex Salmond just seems to add fuel to the fire of the SNP Campaign, as can be seen when all the toys got thrown out of the pram and the drums started beating louder when the UK Government announce that Currency Union was not in the best interests of the rest of the UK and would not be happening.

We don't give you information - you critisise and snipe about a lack of information. We do give you information and you accuse us of Bluff, Bluster and Bullying.

Honestly it's no wonder Cameron wants to stay out of it for now until the result of the vote is known.

Because the rest of the UK does not get a vote - that's why. This is a matter for the Scottish people to decide that's all.

Yes he and the rUK govt have consistently stayed out of the debate and left it to scotland - good point well made - he wades in when it suits him and refuses when it suits him . I dont know what the principle at work here is [political expediency?] but it is not neutral observance of the scottish right to self determination

Debating with someone as slippery and unstable as Alex Salmond just seems to add fuel to the fire of the SNP Campaign

Why does he engender such disrespect ? Serious question why do so many of you hate him so much?
Unstable is OTT you may dislike him but unstable 🙄

when the UK Government announce that Currency Union was not in the best interests of the rest of the UK and would not be happening.

Honestly it's no wonder Cameron wants to stay out of it for now until the result of the vote is known.

Not getting why so many are so one sided here in their explanation of reality/the situation nor do I know what AS has done to piss of so many , mainly english, folk

Not getting why so many are so one sided here in their explanation of reality/the situation nor do I know what AS has done to piss of so many , mainly english, folk

Yes, I don't get this either - it's an almost visceral thing, an extraordinary reaction to a politician they have nothing to do with. The closest I can get is bemused contempt for some extreme right-wing US politicians.

THM: rather that pretending that the UK government has not undertaken legal advice

Junky: So has AS - should we argue over whose is best?

Actually, thats where one has to step back a little and question this narrative, we've already covered this but its vitally important to the credibility of the argument being made by Salmond et al.

There is [b]no doubt at all[/b] that the UK Government has taken legal extensive advice, and thoroughly analysed it in front of parliamentary committee: http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201213/cmselect/cmfaff/643/64302.htm
with extensive associated written evidence: http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201213/cmselect/cmfaff/643/643we01.htm

And formal written expert legal opinion that has (exceptionally) been published:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/79408/Annex_A.pdf

However, on the contrary, the parliamentary commitee found that:

[i]The Scottish Government has not issued a definitive view on this issue and indeed the Deputy First Minister confirmed in oral evidence that it had not sought official legal advice as to what position Scotland might find itself in.[/i]

And in addition it is a matter of public record that Salmond stated publicly that he had received legal advice on the issue of EU membership, and then went to court in an attempt to keep secret the fact that this was untrue and such advice had never actually existed.

Not getting why so many are so one sided here in their explanation of reality/the situation nor do I know what AS has done to piss of so many , mainly english, folk

Errrr I'm Welsh actually.

I suspect he pisses off the people who are open minded on the independence issue or have sufficient intelligence to see that he (and his white paper) is completely full of BS, and that he'd probably sell his own granny into slavery if it would make him PM of Scotland.

Yes you could say that about many politicians but AS seems to have taken BS (and the Bluff, Bluster and Bullying he forever accuses others of) to a completely new and frankly unprofessional level. The man's a complete joke and Scotland deserve far better.

To be fair I know many Scottish people p*ssed off with AS, it's not just England you know.

The UK doesn't exactly act in Scotland's best interests with the EU at the moment:

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Not really surprising when we have so few MEPs:

Malta = 403,532 MEPs = 5
Luxembourg = 486,006 MEPs = 6
Cyprus = 792,604 MEPs = 6
Estonia = 1,307,605 MEPs = 6
Slovenia = 2,007,711 MEPs = 7
Latvia = 2,245,423 MEPs = 9
Lithuania = 3,700,000 MEPs = 13
Ireland = 4,156,119 MEPs 13
Scotland = 5,062,011 MEPs = SIX
Finland = 5,244,749 MEPs = 14
Slovakia = 5,455,407 MEPs = 14
Denmark = 5,484,723 MEPs = 14

The UK has 73 MEPS, Scotland gets 6 - which is is proportion to the Scotland compared to the UK. (UK Pop 60m, Scotland 5m). If we use the same proportion as Finland, then the UK would have about 160 MEPs. In fact the bigger countries on Europe (UK, Germany, France, Italy) all have lower numbers of MEPs compared by population sizes to the smaller countries.

Yup, so Scotland would be better off as a small country, instead of a small part of a big country 😉

Ben - Number of MEP's is capped by treaty at 750 plus the president!

How do you intend negotiating for an increase in parliamentary seats? and which countries do you propose giving them up? considering here you need universal approval from those countries of your entry application?

sadmadalan - Member
The UK has 73 MEPS

yeah but one of them is nigel farage, is he equivalent to -10 sane meps?

How do you intend negotiating for an increase in parliamentary seats? and which countries do you propose giving them up?

We'll wait until the rUK leaves the EU, then we'll have those seats. Simple.

I said mainly I did not say exclusively English.
Anyway were you not advocating staying out of it as a noble position 😉

I suspect he pisses off the people who are open minded on the independence issue or have sufficient intelligence to see that he (and his white paper) is completely full of BS, and that he'd probably sell his own granny into slavery if it would make him PM of Scotland.

Diolch

We'll wait until the rUK leaves the EU, then we'll have those seats. Simple.

So, you now accept your EU membership won't be completed in the 18 months post referendum then 😆

Rebel12,is it possible to want independence for Scotland and not like AS...It's not that anybody on here has suggested you can be one without the other...Oh wait... 😉