[Closed] Osbourne says no to currency union.

Galloway seems to be warning Scotland that under independence, we'll get the government we vote for. And what's worse, we'll get them all the time!

aracer - Member

I thought the whole point was that it wasn't about the SNP and they'd not be in power for long...

I really don't think you're that stupid tbh.

Some great posts in amongst the bollox.....particularly liked the pics of the Scottish Defence HQ and its array of armour! 🙂

I love the apparent contradictions

YS aligning itself with the Adam Smith Institute
Jambalaya with George Galloway

There is an obvious difference between deceit and support - people are fooled by deceit and give their support initially only to be disappointed when the cold hard facts of economic reality set it. We see this time and time again in history and now in Europe and (to a lesser extent with the deceit issues) in the US.

Given that the whole yS is based in deceit and lies that have fallen over at first testing - no other politician can match the DO. Of course, he has latched onto a underlying theme that bears not relation to what he is proposing and therein lies the danger. The BT lot simply struggle to engage with this.

The losers? Everyone bar the speculators, the lawyers and the owners of property in North of England etc

Meanwhile the RoW looks on aghast.

I think what Galloway said about independence being bad for the average working person in Scotland is true, they will suffer in a race to the bottom in terms

I am still surprised at the anti-Blair feeling

teamhurtmore - Member

I love the apparent contradictions

Meanwhile the RoW looks on aghast.

Aghast that the UK has so badly managed Scotland that 50% of it's occupants are willing to take the "risk and uncertainty" and go it alone? If we were truly better together and not treated with contempt then this situation would never even arisen. Even the last ditch promise of powers goes to show how little respect we've been given, and that's regardless of which way your voting.

Meanwhile the RoW looks on aghast.

It took me a second to work out what you meant - I thought you were talking about the Republic of Wales at first.

It took me a second to work out what you meant - I thought you were talking about the Republic of Wales at first.

What appals me (as an ex business person) is the stupidity of businesses joining in the campaign on either side.

This referendum has got the whole of Scotland involved, an incredible amount of active voter participation. The hornet's nest has been well and truly whacked.

Whatever you have said as a business unless it was neutral, about 50% of those hornets are going to be pissed off with your business.

Scots are notorious for carrying a grudge (an old habit, we still haven't forgiven the Campbells 🙂 ).

On the Yes side there is already there is a movement to stop paying the BBC licence fee.

Scottish Newspapers have seen their readerships plummet.

I can think of some supermarkets who may shortly be wondering where half their customers have gone.

I don't know what the No side will do if it is a Yes vote, but I'm sure they will enliven Scottish politics at the very least. 🙂

And let's not forget the financial services parasites whose greed caused the biggest recession in decades lecturing the rest of us about financial and economic caution

And where are the highest concentration of them?

Bankers were the transmission mechanism not the cause of the recession. Buts that's another thread.

Badly managed? Strip away the rhetoric and you have one of the most successful economic and political unions in history. Step away also from spoilt-brat syndrome and this internationally respected union is at risk on the grounds of .....errr.......platitudes, fluff and deceit . Hence the incomprehension from overseas.

Get your tax free, business parks ready for development in N of England. These opportunities only come along every now and again.

Bankers were the transmission mechanism not the cause of the recession.

[quote=BigButSlimmerBloke ] teamhurtmore - Member

I love the apparent contradictions

Serious for a mo - why do No voters hate him so much?

Lets see:

- He's in bed with Rupert Murdoch
- He was in bed with Donald Trump until it went sour for him
- He's in bed with bigot Brian Souter (largest contributor to the SNP) - how does this fit in with the vision of a 'fairer' society?
- He claims to be able to produce a fairer society but then makes plans like slashing corporation tax to 3% below that of the rUK
- He makes extremely vague and often downright misleading claims/statements about the financial future of Scotland and when challenged starts going on about bullying and hinting at dark conspiracy theories.
- He threatens for Scotland not to pay their fair share of the national debt
- The 'arc of prosperity' (although TBF this is more amusing than a reason to dislike him)
- He uses misleading scaremongering tactics WRT the NHS - http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/09/salmonds-nhs-claims-have-been-shredded-ifs
- He's a politician

If we were truly better together and not treated with contempt then this situation would never even arisen.

Treated with contempt - like being given your own parliament?

teamhurtmore - Member

Hence the incomprehension from overseas

My brother's in NZ, everywhere he goes he's having to explain why Scotland's still in the UK. The only incomprehension is why we end up [i]asking[/i] for a referendum, for devolution, etc. "We had a referendum for home rule in 79 and didn't get it on a technicality" "What's wrong with you people?"

Whatever you have said as a business unless it was neutral, about 50% of those hornets are going to be pissed off with your business.

I'm not finding that - perhaps because it's Glasgow, perhaps because of the clientele I attract, almost everyone who comes into the shop is supportive of it. The ones who aren't we can have a joke about it.

“The monetary policy committee of the Bank of England has nine members on it. Four members are appointed by the Treasury; we’d expect to be part of the appointments process.”

He reckons Scotland will get to be part of the appointment process for the policy committee of the national bank of a foreign country? Eh?

I'm no expert but has this ever happened in the world anywhere before?

CAPS LOCK FOR EASE NOT SHOUTING

- He's in bed with Rupert Murdoch- WHICH POLITICIAN IS NOT?
- He was in bed with Donald Trump until it went sour for him- AGRED
- He claims to be able to produce a fairer society but then makes plans like slashing corporation tax to 3% below that of the rUK- NOT INCOMPATABILE WITH A FAIRER SOCIETY
- He makes extremely vague and often downright misleading claims/statements about the financial future of Scotland and when challenged starts going on about bullying and hinting at dark conspiracy theories - COULD YOU BE MORE PRECISE
- He threatens for Scotland not to pay their fair share of the national debt- IN RESPEONSE TO NOT GETTING THE FAIR SHARE OF ASSETS - WHY BLAME TH EREATIALIATION ?
- The 'arc of prosperity' (although TBF this is more amusing than a reason to dislike him)- AGREED BUT THEY ALL DID THIS
- He uses misleading scaremongering tactics WRT the NHS - http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/09/salmonds-nhs-claims-have-been-shredded-ifs- BS - ON ALL OF THAT THE NHS WESTMINISTER HAS PRIMACY OVER HOLYROOD IN LEGISLATIVE TERMS - WHAT DOES DEVOLVED MEAN?
- He's a politician- YES SO WHY HATE HIM MORE?

Dont get me wrong I dont like him but i dont dislike him any more than any other politician either

Agree with NW my overseas mates are generally indifferent and not interested in the same way we would be if the german federal system broke down. It is not like we admire it or care....and some think the english are arrogant for thinking the whole world looks to us first as the father of democracy etc. they do not have not done in my lifetime [ if they ever even did]

Any thoughts on nationalising BP?

I'm no expert but has this ever happened in the world anywhere before

Czechslovakia ????

took the
czech koruna
Slovak koruna

However they both agreed to split rather than one leave
Not sure there is a comparison to be made tbh

Lets see:

- He's in bed with Rupert Murdoch

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-14206371
http://www.****/news/article-1320806/Cameron-stalls-publication-Downing-Street-guestlist-Rupert-Murdoch-visited.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/leveson-inquiry/9295121/Tony-Blair-relationship-with-Rupert-Murdoch-became-easier-and-better-after-Downing-Street.html

Yes thanks for pointing out the obvious - it's a reason for me to dislike Blair and Cameron too. Two wrongs don't make a right though do they.

Also, Salmond is the one trying to make out he's a refreshing change to the self-serving political elite - whereas he appears to just be more of the same.

I guess a lot of people believed that kind of idealistic stuff when Tony Blair said it in 1997 too...

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/12/scottish-referendum-too-close-to-call-says-icm-poll

Guardian/ICM poll finds support for no campaign on 51% and yes on 49% with less than a week to go, but 17% of voters say they have yet to make up their mind

Two wrongs don't make a right though do they.

Is this the case in Scotland as well?

Again a genuine question

Most no voters seem to passionately dislike him [ in england anyway]

Is this the case in Scotland as well?

@epic I think most business did indeed try and stay out of the debate for he obvious reason that they don't want to alienate one part of their customer base. However the financial services companies in particular have a requirement to make a statement as a Yes vote raises some serious issues with regard to regulation and deposit insurance schemes in particular. This then flows onto the publicly listed companies like the food retailers, when they have such a material potential future change in their business organisation they have to make a statement, doing nothing on prices means profits would likely be reduced and if they know that they have to make a statement.

@JY there where certainly dissenting voices on Iraq from within Labour on Iraq but the majority of MPs of all sides voted for the action. I didn't agree with the invasion but I can understand why it occurred and I don't put it down to one man certainly not in the UK.

Every Lib dem voted against it - 1 abstained - iirc they were away
Obviously this was back when they had principles.

Had blair opposed the war and not been so keen it would never have happened. I see little room for debate on that point and we are way OT now.

Is this the case in Scotland as well?

Again a genuine question

jambalaya - Member

@epic I think

I clearly have different opinions to some but lets keep the personal insults out of this or we'll see the thread drift towards the warnings, bans and it being closed, something someone commented on recently about how we had managed to avoid.

You disagree with what I have posted on Blair but as far as I am concerned its reasoned and rational.

surely Blair being an awful person is one thing we can all agree on?

Eamon de Valera was president of Ireland until he was 91 years old.

Grum we were'nt "given" anything. It was achieved with many long hard decades of campaigning. The first "home rule" campaign was in the 1850s, the Scottish covenant had 2,000,000 signatories in 1949. We voted for devolution in 79 and didnt get it.The vigil for a Scottish parliament on Calton Hill started then and went on till 99. There was the Campaign for a Scottish Assembly started in 1980. The Constitutional Convention in 89, The Claim of Right, etc God knows how many marches ,meetings, petitions, letter writing campaigns etc.

Today's ICM poll:

Yes 49% (up 4%)
No 51% (down 4%)

surely Blair being an awful person is one thing we can all agree on?

Whatever happens half of Scotland are going to be upset.
Edit tony Blair is a weapons grade ****.

indeed the making of the peace will be difficult ;whomever wins it will likely be a very close vote either way.
the rhetoric from oth sides has probably not helped

his war decision

as far as I am concerned its reasoned and rational.

I hate Tony Blair with a passion, principally for the Iraq war. I reserve a lesser degree of hate for the supine Labour MPs who backed it - Jack Straw being the worst of these.

I can't stand Salmond either and it's for all the reasons oldbloke listed above.

The mobile phone companies are now speaking of price rises after a Yes vote.

Whatever happens half of Scotland are going to be upset.
Edit tony Blair is a weapons grade ****.

What about John Major?

He took us into a war that directly led to the 2nd Gulf War but he is not seen as a hate figure? Just saying like.

@Bill Any PM would have taken the UK into Iraq. The US would have invaded without UK support.

It was pretty clear to me at the time the 45 min claim was made up (and not a real threat to our security) and the definition of WMD broadened to include Chemical weapons to publicly justify a decision which had effectively already been collectively taken. If you read "Against All Enemies" Clarke's theory is that an invasion of Iraq was sealed when the Iraqi's tried to blow up Bush Senior in Kuwait after the first gulf war. You can accuse Britain of being the US's Poodle but Blair was not the primary reason for our involvement.

his war decision

YES his war decision. others were culpable and involved but had he opposed war [ perhap snot even been so keen] it would never have happened.

jambalaya - Member
@epic I think most business did indeed try and stay out of the debate for he obvious reason that they don't want to alienate one part of their customer base. However the financial services companies in particular have a requirement to make a statement as a Yes vote raises some serious issues with regard to regulation and deposit insurance schemes in particular.

I think the problem with the financial groups is not because they made a contingency statement along the lines of we're watching the situation and have contingency plans, but rather the flat statements that they would move.

But we all know who their bosses are, so we expect no less from them.

The absolute stupidity IMO came from the major retail groups who are dependent on the individual for their day to day turnover. The odds are that the No voters aren't getting too incensed as Ben says, but I'm convinced there will be repercussions from all those fired up Yes voters. Never ever piss off your customers seems like a fundamental of business to me.

Salmond refuses to answer BBC's question on RBS Corporation Tax and then tries to bluff through on "economic activity" when clearly he must see how that's shot full of holes by Amazon, Starbucks, Apple etc.

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2014/sep/11/alex-salmond-heckled-bbc-reporter-nick-robinson-scotland-independence-rbs-video ]Guardian Link[/url]

@Bill Any PM would have taken the UK into Iraq.

The mobile phone companies are now speaking of price rises after a Yes vote.

Well they were obviously next on Cameron's call sheet. We're in the last minute panic, throwing everything they've got at it. Lovebombing didn't work, the new plan is apparently called Shock And Awe. Seriously.

@epic - the financial groups have no choice but to move, the yes campaign has not laid out plans for a central bank or a regulator - both of these you need if you are going to have Scottish banks. The Yes campaign thinks its going to get these things for free via a currency union which the UK parties have ruled out. So RBS/Lloyds/Standard Life have no choice but to say they would re-locate their HQ

@ben I think the companies all kept quiet as the vote looked like a No. IMO the reason they are coming forward is it looks like the answer could be Yes. Yes is bad for business with more costs and complexity.

yes with different currencies it is bad

I feel certain the multinational companies will manage to keep operating in another country and keep making money.

BBC

Meanwhile, Ukip leader Nigel Farage will hold a "pro-Union" rally in Glasgow with fellow Ukip politicians, where he is to claim that an independent Scotland would not be able to keep the pound - and would be forced to join the euro.

IIRC, Nigel Farage is not a member of government, UKIP has no MPs and that party will take no part in any post independence negotiations. Farage is just a fantasist.
jamabalaya - you are Nigel Farage and I claim my £5

@Big we are all posting our personal views here, credibility is not a factor. A Diane Abbott or Robin Cook would never have been PM in my view. Brown or Cameron would have taken us into Iraq.

Companies leaning on their employees:

[img] [/img]

Unions leaning on their members:

[img] [/img]

Democracy?

Yes is bad for business with more costs and complexity.

Yes is also good for business, with new opportunities. There's pros and cons, which is why lots of businesses support independence.

I would suggest that even Ben cannot argue that some operating costs will increase for certain businesses in an iScotland. Seems pretty obvious.

yes is bad for business with more costs and complexity

The infrastructure and supply chains are exactly the same, the only differences I can see are different tax regimes, which may even may more favourable after yes, and smaller/larger area's to spread cost overs. It wont be night and day changes.

As for Nick Robinson he needs to wind his neck in. AS gave an answer, which would of been no different to how any other politician would of answered, before having a go at the BBC, probably rightly, for their links to the RBS news. The edit of the broadcast on the BBC didn't show any of the answer and stated that he didn't answer. Hardly impartial reporting. Combine that with the editing of the debate at the hydro and doesn't look good for the BBC.

1. He doesn't understand what he is doing and/or
2. He is using deceit and lies to implement changes that are harmful to both Scotland and the rUK - it's a lose, lose

It couldn't be simpler.

His odious, bullying behaviour is merely a side show.

He took us into a war that directly led to the 2nd Gulf War but he is not seen as a hate figure? Just saying like.

in any case, it was an incontrovertible fact that Iraq invaded Kuwait. there was a far greater degree of international support. civilian casualties were more limited. and there was plenty of "no war for oil" sentiment at the time.

it was a pretty different circumstance.

@JY its bad even if Scotland keeps the pound. Lots of duplication of corporate structures North/South of the border, more organisational overhead. Having to deal with potentially quite different tax and legal frameworks, two sets of Governments/regulators to deal with. I cannot see too many Scottish branded companies looking forward to this, Scottish Power is going to suffer some kind of backlash in the UK for certain - no ?

@ben business are worried, they've done the sums.

Democracy?

some operating costs will increase for certain businesses in an iScotland

Are people really meant to vote on what system has the lowest overhead costs for multinational business?

I cannot see too many Scottish branded companies looking forward to this, Scottish Power is going to suffer some kind of backlash in the UK for certain - no ?

Robin Cook reduces Blairs case for war to rubble.

Leaning on your members/employees - sorry that's a crock.

You have a fiduciary responsibility to both. As a CEO, if you know that one result will have material impact on how you organise/locate your activities you have duty to make sure that your employees know this. It has a clear impact on their lives going forward.

It's about time that companies were free to escape this false neutrality. The political process is there to serve us. Not the other way round.

Of course yS's fairier society actually involves suppression of Information and debate, which is the only way he has been successful so far.

@JY - yes costs will go up in iS and UK - lose lose. We've been discussing this on the other thread. I can't think of any businesses where costs will go down, the legal costs of splitting companies up alone with be significant.

If Scotland really does threaten not to take any debt then I think a UK consumer reaction can't be described at petty ?

@gordihmor a very powerful speech I remember it well. I recently re-read it upon his death.

I would suggest that even Ben cannot argue that some operating costs will increase for certain businesses in an iScotland. Seems pretty obvious.

Nope, pretty hard to argue against that.

But also hard to argue against the suggestion that some operating costs for certain businesses would decrease in iScotland. Business operating costs aren't intrinsically higher in smaller countries - in fact they're often lower I believe because a smaller bureaucracy means less red tape.

What's obvious is that there's competition in the marketplace. If Asda put up prices and Tesco don't, then Asda will lose out. We don't know what the tax and currency arrangements will be like after independence, so impossible to say if business operating costs will be higher or lower.

@ben give us an example where operating costs would go down ? I can't think of one but I imagine there could be some. It's a genuine question.

EDIT: what I do think will happen is the government will reduce taxes and possibly other business compliance costs but where are they going to get the money from ?

I would have though any fiduciary / moral obligation to your employees would include allowing them to vote without you "helping" them decide what was in [s]the companies [/s] their best interest.

the company did it for the company and its future prosperity, the letter even says so.

The [s]political process[/s] business community is there to serve us. Not the other way round.

Ben in the company statement you posted, they give some simple clear reasons why yes is not in their interests and the suggested implications.

In a fairier society - do you share that insight or do you suppress it? The answer is blindingly obvious as is the kind of yS reaction to it.

We don't know what the tax and currency arrangements will be like after independence

I thought we did

i) lower
ii) The pound

But also hard to argue against the suggestion that some operating costs for certain businesses would decrease in iScotland. Business operating costs aren't intrinsically higher in smaller countries - in fact they're often lower I believe because a smaller bureaucracy means less red tape.

Where do you get his stuff from? Since the early 90s, Scoltand has run a 11% productivity gap with rUK. So you go independent and attempt to lock the currency. How do you close the productivity gap - hint, have a look in Europe and UN and wage levels.

fairer society 😀

Of course the DO knows his and he had that very short-lived attempt to explain how yS was going to deliver productivity improvements. The supply- side revolution. Out-Torying the Tories again..

Leaning on your members/employees - sorry that's a crock.

Perhaps the employer is just being honest, which is unusual in at lot of the Yes vote discussions.

iS will mean increased overheads and lower consumer confidence which all impact profits which *will* lead to redundancies now. In the future it might lead to more jobs but in short term a lot of people are going to be made redundant, mind you according to AS in 20 years they will be eating unicorn steak off gold plates so they just need to tighten their belt for a few decades.

Also I wouldn't want to be in the ship building Rosyth as my money would be on that comes back to Portsmouth in the event of a Yes vote.

I dont think the english are that petty tbh?

They are, look at how many people voted for UKIP.

THM personally i dont think that companies have any right to tell employees how they should vote and i am surprises anyone does, However if they are to inform then they can explain what they think independence may mean for the business in moderate and temperate language and then let folk decide armed with facts. they cannot say what way they want folks to vote [ they have not done this explicitly but it is pretty clear what they are saying]

They have fallen some way short of that with the word DISASTROUS AND TYPING IN CAPS LOCK
Its a bit hyperbolic and a wee bit salmold esque in tone

THM personally i dont think that companies have any right to tell employees how they should vote and i am surprises anyone does, However if they are to inform then they can explain what they think independence may mean for the business in moderate and temperate language and then let folk decide armed with facts. they cannot say what way they want folks to vote

The risk losing your business and life savings can make people a little irrational. Not an excuse, but may'be an explanation.

Since the early 90s, Scoltand has run a 11% productivity gap with rUK. So you go independent and attempt to lock the currency. How do you close the productivity gap - hint, have a look in Europe and UN and wage levels.

Why does it have to be through wages? There are other ways to increase productivity. All the productivity gap really shows is that Scottish businesses aren't well served being part of the Union.

@Jambalaya good memory there sir, Robin Cook died 9 years ago. 😉

On mobile costs I wonder if the phone companies will charge international roaming when crossing the border ?

@gordi - opps, yes got me there ! I remember now I re-read it after Dame Warsi resigned "on a matter of principal"

All the productivity gap really shows is that Scottish businesses aren't well served being part of the Union