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may enable them to feed their poor and hungry.
That's the funniest thing I've ever heard, they'll spend it on arming the police and beating the shit out of the poor.
If you are using the pound and our economy goes, then I hate to tell you this, but you will all be in as deep crap as we will.
Personally I would rather be in a country of 50 million + than in a little country with limited control over my currency (applies with currency union, using the pound or joining the euro)
6 more months of work and I've got enough points to get into Canada, the idea is looking pretty attractive now.
Sorry fella, but why would you even wonder about that.
Canada is awesome, I would move there but their biotech industry is all on the Quebec side and I want to live in BC
grahamt1980 - Member
If you are using the pound and our economy goes, then I hate to tell you this, but you will all be in as deep crap as we will...
We'll have the flexibility to change that, so it will be a hiccup, not a disaster.
I'm particularly keen to know how the markets will react to the "it's not our debt" stance, and what that will do to Scotland's cost of borrowing. You know, the borrowing needed to patch up the £15 billion+ hole in Scotland's budget given that all the oil money is going to be used to create a sovereign wealth fund instead of paying for public services.
This is what I mean about facts - it appears that very little of the debate has been around measureable/forecastable figures (which Scotland can hold Salmond to if he doesn't deliver)...
And as Epicyclo says, UK economic growth could well fall away (ITEM Club forecast is for lower growth next year than this in any case) - and referencing Tom's point about RestofUK losing influence - a split [i]could[/i] lead us all into outright recession if the markets and foreign investors think UK's in long term decline as a result.
Worth reading this: some money's already leaving Scotland in anticipation of a split. For e.g. if there's a 'yes' vote Standard Life and RBS walking away - taking their jobs and their corporation taxes with them... (most likely to London, further increasing inequality across UK).
[url= http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21615593-scottish-referendum-nears-capital-takes-fright-case-jitters ]Scottish Finance, a case of the jitters[/url]
Epicyclo.
Fair enough, so the financial markets go belly up, where do you turn?
Own currency, the Euro.
To be honest at the moment the entire financial system is FUBAR, so when one big economy goes, the whole lot will take a major hit.
I hope like hell it doesn't happen but something nasty will.
For what its worth, I really don't mind if scotland chose to go their own way, thats your choice.
I would prefer to see scotland stay part of the UK, but you can at least choose. Just hope it works out well for everyone, but short term the only people who will win are the lawyers.
Canada is awesome, I would move there but their biotech industry is all on the Quebec side and I want to live in BC
Aaaand that's why I might try and PhD in Vancouver, might then be able to get a postdoc there. There are some biotech industry jobs kicking around in vancouver as well.
Awesome plan, go for it.
Vancouver and BC are just amazing.
Would love my company to set up out there.
Sadly no hope of that
Those who forget the lessons of history and doomed to repeat then. From the last time lies and deceit were used to hoodwink the population
Even Hattersley, who so sharply condemned Heath’s double-dealing, has offered his own mea culpa: [b]What we did throughout all those years, all the Europeans, was say, let’s not risk trying to make fundamental changes by telling the whole truth, let’s do it through public relations rather than real proselytising… spin the argument rather than expose the argument[/b]. Not only was it wrong for us to deal superficially with what Europe involved, but we’ve paid the price for it ever since… Joining the European Community did involve significant loss of sovereignty but by telling the British people that was not involved, I think the rest of the argument was prejudiced for the next twenty or thirty years.24 At best the pro-Europeans were coy about sovereignty and at worst they were downright deceptive. [b]It would come back to haunt them by contributing to public mistrust and, eventually, outright hostility [/b]to further European integration, even where logic suggested that European countries were better off cooperating.
Different context re direction of sovereignty but same means to fool the population. All that is required now is the hand of Murdoch.....oh wait a minute....
Awesome plan, go for it.
Vancouver and BC are just amazing.
Would love my company to set up out there.
Sadly no hope of that
Pretty sure you could find a job there if you looked long and hard enough. I seem to remember the easy one for me would be to go over there and sit their hospital lab tech professional exams as they are in short supply, automatic visa entry with no job offer then. I reckon I could do that for a few years before getting bored whilst I was kicking around looking for more research oriented posts.
Epicyclo.
Fair enough, so the financial markets go belly up, where do you turn?
Own currency, the Euro.
To be honest at the moment the entire financial system is FUBAR, so when one big economy goes, the whole lot will take a major hit...
I'd prefer to see Scotland with its own currency or the Euro.
It's hard to know what to do if the world economy takes a dive, but regardless of how bad things are, there's still opportunities. It's just having the ability to recognise them when they happen. I like to say the opportunity of a lifetime happens every 3 months.
The problem of the 'what about the facts' question is, I think, summed up in this by Alex Massie:
[url= http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2014/09/come-in-britain-your-time-is-up/ ]Facts vs An Idea[/url]
Summary: You can't beat an idea/dream with facts - fight it with another idea/dream.
Charity begins at home. Once we have sorted out our problems we can send aid to England if you like.
You miss the point like most Yes voters I speak to. The term "home" you refer to can mean many things to different people. It is very subjective.
More disadvantaged and needy dying of starvation.
@epic people aren't dying of starvation in the UK and nor will they under whatever government we get in 2015
I'd prefer to see Scotland with its own currency or the Euro.
Euro area currently in worse state than UK and deflation looking increasingly likely...
Euro area currently in worse state than UK and deflation looking increasingly likely...I'd prefer to see Scotland with its own currency or the Euro.
Shush! Don't wake him. It looks such a peaceful, happy dream.
Summary: You can't beat an idea/dream with facts - fight it with another idea/dream.
Is the modern political narrative confirmed to be on Friday night - a flawed philosophy in my view as the Euro project shows. It is an endictment on the modern political process and this is seen a progress that will somehow deliver a better society.
The world of candy floss dreams....
This advice is almost as bad as the advice given to GO about his hair. 😉 is it a rug?
The consequences of voting No are looking pretty bleak.Coalition of Conservative/UKIP govt in near future. Lead by Boris and Farage, both of whom are keen to strip funding from Scotland.
Out of the EU.
More wars.
More disadvantaged and needy dying of starvation.
etc
If we stay in the Union we have no control over that happening. Better to be in control of our own destiny even if it's tougher than it should have been.
project feart, go for it!
It's going to be fun watching the little Englanders boil over as we become resigned to complete mediocrity on their watch
we already are mediocre, Alex already thinks he is going to turn rUK into Belgium
teamhurtmore - Member
Summary: You can't beat an idea/dream with facts - fight it with another idea/dream.Is the modern political narrative confirmed to be on Friday night - a flawed philosophy in my view as the Euro project shows. It is an endictment on the modern political process and this is seen a progress that will somehow deliver a better society.
The world of candy floss dreams....
This advice is almost as bad as the advice given to GO about his hair. is it a rug?
This would only be a problem if you didn't believe you had the facts on your side.
It's no use being right, but losing?
we already are mediocre, Alex already thinks he is going to turn rUK into Belgium
I wouldn't say we are mediocre, we're a top 10 economy that is projected to stay that way. Unless of course, Scotland leaves and we leave the EU.
If that happens, I'd rather move to the ****ing Philippines as they'll rank higher than us by the time I'm in my 40s.
Coalition of Conservative/UKIP govt in near future. Lead by Boris and Farage, both of whom are keen to strip funding from Scotland.
Tories won't need UKIP - Labour without Scottish seats won't have a chance of getting back into power outside a coalition, Tories will be dominant.
I'm right of centre but I don't want the Tories to not have to fight for their vote, I want them to prove they're worthy of it each and every time.
A dominant single party isn't a healthy democracy IMO... so rest of UK will lose out politically as well as economically...
Tories won't need UKIP - Labour without Scottish seats won't have a chance of getting back into power outside a coalition.
Bit of a myth that, I have had the privilege of hanging out in one of the parliamentary bars with friends who are political advisers on a number of occasions. Every time Labour has won a majority, they could have done it without Scotland. It will just bite them if it's a close run election.
Just think...if we end up with a Tory government for 25 years, Wales will just leave, as will ancient Northumbria. It will be hilarious. All because the Tories hate anyone who isn't an affluent southerner.
England will descend into a realm of naff houses and retirees watching blackadder on repeat lamenting the downfall of Britain and how it was all the EU's fault whilst erecting 50 foot fences along the coast to keep brown people from propping the economy up.
WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
If a currency union is entered then I think the bigger issue for the main parties is that it will let UKIP in in a massive way. Labour, Lib Dems and the Conservatives have all said it won't happen, if they go back on it then the UK elections could end in a bloodbath.
Whimbrel - correct, but that says more about modern politics. McUtopia is being built in a series of lies. And the response from the (apparently US inspired consultants) is merely to respond in kind. I asked a minister and a shadow minister specifically about why do you not directly expose Salmond's BS on currency, debt , Defence NHS etc ( the list of long) and the answer? We are advised not to.
The narrative is more important that the facts. On that basis, no wonder the polls are slipping. Listening to how the strategic PR teams works makes my somewhat cyclical about where the latest poll was published but that is perhaps more wishful thinking.
10 days away from potentially sleepwalking into chaos - so epic, how have you bought volatility? Might as well make some money out of all this. Need another look at the RBS credit trades among others. Timing for the contrarian call will be key on that one. Easy to catch a falling sword in the ST.
I wouldn't say we are mediocre, we're a top 10 economy that is projected to stay that way. .
until Alex turns us into Belgium 😉
What's wrong with Belgium?
They certainly make better chocolate than we do.
I asked a minister and a shadow minister specifically about why do you not directly expose Salmond's BS on currency, debt , Defence NHS etc ( the list of long) and the answer? We are advised not to.
Surely they have a better reason than that 😯 I would hope they did but weren't allowed to tell you...
10 days away from potentially sleepwalking into chaos - so epic
The Economist article about money leaving already, and significant employers planning on leaving is what's worried me... it shows clear intention.
Of course, if it sends jitters through the markets and through Joe Public, maybe house prices will crash and I can afford to buy something at last 😀
I wonder if there's a Yes vote and the response of the markets and English and foreign investment is to leave (or announce intention to leave), then maybe all those who voted Yes will ask for another vote so they can annul it).
What's wrong with Belgium?
plenty that would keep Alex smiling at the chaos as he attempts to turn Scotland into Luxemburg
No - since one of them was lamenting the strategy.
Frankly it seems there has been far too much complacency over the result. The rise of UKIP should have told them that the public will be happy to swallow BS and as Ckeggy found out on TV it is hard to argue against bare faced lies. People would rather be told that eating chocolate everyday and drinking fizzy drinks was good for you.
The Economist article about money leaving already, and significant employers planning on leaving is what's worried me... it shows clear intention.
And it's inconceivable that they're saying that to try to influence the vote?
And it's inconceivable that they're saying that to try to influence the vote?
Well, duh...
Is it also inconceivable that they'll follow through if Scotland gets its independence?
The more information voters have about the Scottish independence referendum debate, the more likely they are to vote yes, according to researchers.
Is it also inconceivable that they'll follow through if Scotland gets its independence?
Nope, absolutely possible - but I'd prefer to live in a country that's not run for the benefit of big business.
So when are you moving to [s]North[/s] Best Korea?
🙄
The naivety would be amusing if it wasn't so potentially damaging.
Maybe we just all got tired of being patronised.
teamhurtmore - Member
...10 days away from potentially sleepwalking into chaos - so epic, how have you bought volatility? Might as well make some money out of all this...
I'm being chicken - I'm keeping my funds in AUD$ for now, although if I convert it back into £ the increase is nearly enough to get me my next car (but I'll probably just cut the rust out of my old Transit and waste the rest on bicycles 🙂 )
It's a bit of a predicament. I'm convinced the current govt will send the economy spiralling downwards, while trying to keep up appearances with lots of fine words. They really need to become more pacifist for purely thrift reasons.
But an independent Scotland has no track record yet. Until the currency question is sorted, no one is really going to know which way to jump. As you say, volatility. 🙂
Maybe we just all got tired of being patronised.
Go on then. How does your society work and fund itself? Does it immerse itself in the big wide world and prostrate itself at the alter of free-market capitalism and "big business", like 195 countries currently do, or does it free itself from those shackles like North Korea.
Like it or not, "big business" is at the heart of what we eat, what we wear, where we work, how much we have to spend. You make it unfavourable for "big business" to operate and they take all that elsewhere.
The Flying Ox - Member
Go on then. How does your society work and fund itself?
In that most boring of ways - just like any other small country.
The mistake is thinking that the way things work in the UK at the moment is the only way they can work. We live in one of the most unequal countries in the developed world, and a big part of that is running the country for the benefit of business not people. Many other countries manage to balance bisiness and society much better, we can try to copy them.
brooess - MemberThe Economist article about money leaving already, and significant employers planning on leaving is what's worried me... it shows clear intention.
The economist article is downright misleading- Standard Life have drawn up contingency plans but they're not to "move in the event of a Yes vote"- they're to prepare in case that becomes desirable, in the face of uncertainty over the outcome of negotiations.
Here is a more honest article on the subject: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26364418. Which unsurprisingly has Better Together attempting to mislead in exactly the same way, but has detail from Standard Life telling us what the contingency plans are really for.
The mistake is thinking that the way things work in the [s]UK[/s] rest of the world at the moment is the only way they can work.
So North Korea then.
Well, you've just proved my point 😉
The economist article is downright misleading- Standard Life have drawn up contingency plans but they're not to "move in the event of a Yes vote"- they're to prepare in case that becomes desirable, in the face of uncertainty over the outcome of negotiations.
Which it almost certainly will. If it was unlikely they wouldn't really be drawing up contingency plans would they? Not misleading at all - the Economist has simply taken a view on the likelihood of the contingency plans being used, probably also based on more recent information on the regulatory framework (that is after all quite an old article and things have moved on with other companies also starting to take action).
I suppose you could always [b]hope[/b] that it won't happen.
aracer - MemberWhich it almost certainly will. If it was unlikely they wouldn't really be drawing up contingency plans would they?
Ah yes, so if it's not unlikely, it must be almost certain 😆 Standard Life took great pains to make themselves clear, do you think they went to the press meaning to say "we will leave" and accidentally said "We're making contingency plans so that if things go tits up, we're ready"? That's quite a lot more words for something you can say with 3...
In that most boring of ways - just like any other small country.
With a sizeable helping of "big business" then.
Let's look at it another way. How many countries that eschew the benefits of favourable "big business" conditions would Scotland look to emulate?
I'm not saying Ben's ideals aren't admirable. I'm saying they're slightly naive when you consider Scotland has to operate as part of a global economy.
Standard Life took great pains to make themselves clear
Standard Life took great pains to make themselves appear impartial whilst they drew up plans which are almost certain to be put into action in the event of a Yes vote.
bencooper - Member
The mistake is thinking that the way things work in the UK at the moment is the only way they can work. We live in one of the most unequal countries in the developed world, and a big part of that is running the country for the benefit of business not people. Many other countries manage to balance bisiness and society much better, we can try to copy them.
I am not sure if such ideas and beautifully innocent or simply scarily niaive? Many of the challenges faced by the UK a common to many parts of the developed and indeed the developing world. These challenges cross political and economic boundaries - not least the challenges of inequality and over-leverage. It is a grow simplification to argue that the UK is in a significantly worse positions indeed the flexibility that exists in the UK is one reason why we are currently emerging from the crisis is relatively better shape that many other economies including the bulk of Europe.
AS has presented no new economic/political or social paradigm to address any of the questions other that glib promises on issues such as inequality. It is a complete myth to suggest that a yes vote will lead to theis new McUtopia - not least that ironically many policies are either direct copies of what goes on in rUk or ironically are even more RW. But since a foreign country will be determining both monetary and fiscal policy, the whole idea of independence fall flat in its face. As does the € proposal - just look what is happening on the continent.
Sell a false dream and stay away from the truth - the realpolitik of the iS campaign.
FWIW, I was recently talking to a major US corporation (best not to say who) about getting a job. They tried to open an office in France a year ago in order to recruit a whole load of engineers being made redundant there at the time, but gave up because of the labour laws. They are now opening an office in Cambridge and one of the factors they mentioned was the much more sensible legislation.
I assume most of the people camped at Calais would disagree with all the negative comments about England.
Given the plans for a socialist utopia in Scotland, with free higher education for all, free prescriptions, no bedroom tax and an end to Tory austerity politics
I reckon we should learn from France and meet any immigrants at Dover with a leaflet on Scottish benefits and a free bus ticket to Carlisle, let Scotland have the f****** 😀
Many other countries manage to balance bisiness and society much better, we can try to copy them.
Like where, specifically?
And how will iScotland change the power dynamic?
I assume most of the people camped at Calais would disagree with all the negative comments about England.
What negative comments about England?
AS has presented no new economic/political or social paradigm to address any of the questions other that glib promises on issues such as inequality
We're not voting for Alex Salmond, we're voting for the chance to choose our government - which could be made up of the SNP, a rejuvenated Labour, the Greens, the SSP,...
What this argument boils down to, again, is "you're not good enough to go it on your own" - Better Together have been trying that, and it looks like Scots are getting more confidence in themselves to believe those stories.
Oh, and contingency plans. All businesses make them. I worked for a big IT company looking after mainframes for a large insurer, and they had contingency plans for everything - including asteroid strike. You make contingency plans just in case, not because you anticipate using them. Just like the Wall St banks making plans to leave London if the UK leaves the EU.
Apologies- this has probably already been covered but what is to stop Russian forces hanging around (at will) around the coastline of Scotland in the future? Right now incursions are seen off but the future? Will Scotland have the will and capacity?
Like where, specifically?
Having a look at what other Northern European countries do would be a good start.
I thought it was the no campaign that was being accused of being negative!
Reading some of the yes vote garbage on here just makes me feel so sad that this is what is being preached to the Scottish voters.
The thought that one stupid referendum can bring an end to the United Kingdom just makes me sick.
Look at a map, what possible sense does it make to become totally, separate, independent countries?
The rest of the world must think we are crazy!
running the country for the benefit of business not people
You do realise those two things overlap a great deal, don't you?
We live in one of the most unequal countries in the developed world
@ben come on you just made this up !
Medium and low income people in the UK are much better off than in Spain, Italy and Portugal for example. You really think the UK has a lower level of equality than the US ? Are China and India part of the developed world as far as you are concerned ? We do happen to have a lot of very successful people in this country which is a credit to our country, as I posted before you can make the UK more equal if they leave (and they are very mobile) but as the top 1% pay 30% of the taxes you better have a plan as to where the money is going to come from instead.
Krugman wades in again:
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/09/08/opinion/paul-krugman-scots-what-the-heck.html?_r=0
(ps. the comments section on that article is brilliant)
Right now incursions are seen off but the future? Will Scotland have the will and capacity?
Ha! Right now what happens is that a fisherman sees a bunch of Russian ships and mentions it on Twitter - a day later a single ship arrives from Portsmouth to keep an eye on them! Scotland has no surface patrol ships at the moment, and no air patrol aircraft either since the Nimrods were scrapped.
An independent Scotland will have a larger defence budget - at the moment only about 60% of the Scottish contribution to defence is spent in Scotland. But that budget will be spent sensibly - no aircraft carriers we don't have aircraft for, no nuclear submarines - so we'll have a more sensible defence force, similar to what Ireland, Sweden etc have.
Look at a map, what possible sense does it make to become totally, separate, independent countries?
I've looked at a map. What am I looking for? Or are you calling for the abolition of all land borders?
FWIW I wrote to Standard Life (who have 50% of my pension money and who I am generally pleased with) and said in the event of a Yes vote I would move my pension unless the company moved to the UK and continued to be regulated by the FCA. The company is well run and it will have worked itself that UK customers don't want their retirement saving managed by a company based in a country which isn't even planning in a central bank never mind a financial regulator.
You do realise those two things overlap a great deal, don't you?
We can alter the balance.
[img] 
[/img]
An independent Scotland will have a larger defence budget - at the moment only about 60% of the Scottish contribution to defence is spent in Scotland. But that budget will be spent sensibly - no aircraft carriers we don't have aircraft for, no nuclear submarines - so we'll have a more sensible defence force, similar to what Ireland, Sweden etc have.
Blatantly incorrect. Scotlands first Minister said he'd drastically reduce the defence spending and base their marine capacity at Clyde. The Navy said it'd take years to adapt the facility from Submarines to surface ships/to accept any sort of ships there.
It really does worry me- the disaffected voters who think 'my lifes not great now, what have I personally got to lose'?
Their life would be bland/shit in any country as they didn't listen at school. FFS.
I didn't realise i lived in a country of serial gamblers, that has come as a surprise to me.
There absolutley needs to be change however call me old fashioned but i like a bit of detail when people proclaim they can save the world.
The latest Ministry of Defence figures said there was £1.57 billion spent on defence in Scotland in 2007/08. However, in that year Scotland paid in £2.84 billion towards UK defence spending. (GERS 2010-11). There is a huge gap in how much Scotland pays for defence and how much is actually spent in Scotland.
http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/defence-in-an-independent-scotland-spend-less-to-get-more/
It really does worry me- the disaffected voters who think 'my lifes not great now, what have I personally got to lose'?Their life would be bland/shit in any country as they didn't listen at school. FFS.
Yes, because that's the only reason people are voting Yes. FFS.
I didn't realise i lived in a country of serial gamblers, that has come as a surprise to me.
There absolutley needs to be change however call me old fashioned but i like a bit of detail when people proclaim they can save the world.
Detail matters - which is why research has shown that the more information people have the more likely they are to vote Yes. So, to get you started, there's lots of good detail in here: http://wingsoverscotland.com/weebluebook/
There is a huge gap in how much Scotland pays for defence and how much is actually spent in Scotland.
Do you predict that Heckler & Koch, Boeing, Radway Green, Airbus etc. will have have domestic Scottish alternatives in iScotland? Or is the reason defence money gets spent outside Scotland mainly down to the fact that we buy lots of things from international companies that have no factories there.
I look forward to seeing the Scottish alternative to a Boeing C17!
[quote=ninfan said]
I look forward to seeing the Scottish alternative to a Boeing C17!
The tartan livery should look quite stunning.
@ben thanks for that, I'll look up the study later (I do see US, Portugal and Italy I quoted are less equal, surprised about Spain's position but these "co-efficient" type measures can be very sensitive). As I have posted before the best way to improve such statistical fairness measures is for the rich people and their money/spending to leave which certainly doesn't help the less well off.
I look forward to seeing the Scottish alternative to a Boeing C17
What are we going to need one of those for? Anyhow, the difference isn't in money spent with Scottish companies, the difference is in defence provision. In other words, where the equipment is based, not where it's made.
As I have posted before the best way to improve such statistical fairness measures is for the rich people and their money/spending to leave which certainly doesn't help the less well off.
Look at the countries further down the list - they're definitely not poorer overall.
Look at the countries further down the list - they're definitely not poorer overall.
Like Greece?
research has shown that the more [b]false[/b] information people have the more likely they are to vote Yes. So, to get you started, there's lots of good detail in here: http://wingsoverscotland.com/weebluebook/
I found at least two incorrect or misleading "facts" on page 2 - possibly three, but I'm being generous. It even points one of them out further on:
Threats that Scotland will be ejected (even temporarily) from the EU are hollow, impossible to ever put into practice.
Anyone, on either side of the debate, claiming to know as a matter of certainty what would happen to an independent Scotland’s EU membership status is a liar.
bencooper - MemberDetail matters - which is why research has shown that the more information people have the more likely they are to vote Yes. So, to get you started, there's lots of good detail in here: http://wingsoverscotland.com/weebluebook/
More like there's a lot of misleading statements and assertions based on only listening to people who support your viewpoint.
[url= http://chokkablog.blogspot.co.uk/2014/08/the-wee-blue-book-of-lies.html ]http://chokkablog.blogspot.co.uk/2014/08/the-wee-blue-book-of-lies.html[/url]
Enjoy.
NZCol - Member
...There absolutley needs to be change however call me old fashioned but i like a bit of detail when people proclaim they can save the world.
We're not out to save the world, simply to govern ourselves.
And as we are perfectly competent to do that, it makes sense to do it.
We can argue over the minutae as much as we like, but it comes down to Scots want independence, and Scots are capable of running their own country.
After independence, we will be eternally grateful to the UK Establishment for their co-ordinated campaign of lies, threats, and sneers, because that has made many otherwise passive Scots abandon their traditional party vote, and get out on the streets and involve themselves in the Yes campaign.
9 days to go... 🙂