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We've moved on a little from the clan system and absolute monarchies of the 16/1700s! ffs, you serious?
Would the Scots here mind sharing what region of Scotland you are from, out of interest?
Give it 10 years.molgrips - Member
I wouldn't take that leap without the next step being in place..
molgrips - Member
Would the Scots here mind sharing what region of Scotland you are from, out of interest?
No way, you're not getting an inch of it!
Oh, I see what you mean - Highlands and Islands. 🙂
I think Scotland and certainly Wales would benefit from more support than the EU currently provides.. perhaps an ex-UK organisation of some kind. But this goes beyond my knowledge of international economics.
Give it 10 years.
If such a collaboration were to arise between Scotland and rUK, then Wales and NI would have a lot to think about I reckon.
Does Ireland have special arrangements with the UK, btw? I know you don't need a passport but that's about all I know.
Would the Scots here mind sharing what region of Scotland you are from, out of interest?
Glasgow. Not one of the posh bits.
molgrips - Member
Would the Scots here mind sharing what region of Scotland you are from, out of interest?
Glasgow, south side(govanhill), originally from the Rutherglen/Castlemilk border lands. 😆
perhaps an ex-UK organisation of some kind
Some kind of Commonwealth kind of thing, you mean? 😉
I'm not seriously suggesting that we would return to claymores and battlefields. At the moment we feel we're ignored by parliament as we're far removed from Westminster. Is the sentiment going to continue in iS? Can a Scottish Parliament address the concerns of everyone - of course not. We then find ourselves infighting and blaming each other on who wanted / didn't want independence.
Border between Aberdeenshire and Kincardinshire
I'm not seriously suggesting that we would return to claymores and battlefields
Around here, Samurai swords are more popular.
And I do have my scythe.
12 bore and throwing axes here,oh and the wife is an expert archer.
So.. If you are from H&I, do you not feel allied with rural upland communities in Wales, NI, NE England etc? They generally feel under represented.
We've done this before. Scotland runs a deficit,
Ben, I'm glad you agree, as it serves only to show that the claim
Scotland pays more in taxation to the Treasury than it gets back in funding.
In the letter that [i]you[/i] posted is untrue, as I said!
Cheers for that, I've always been fascinated by old borders through the centuries, never seen it represented like that, fantastic! 🙂molgrips - Member
http://www.viralforest.com/watch-1000-years-european-borders-change/
Do small countries work very well when it all goes tits up and you are in a world of big bullying powers. Russia for example. I can see loads of benifits of IS but this is seen through the eyes of a very stable period of European history. Now things are starting to look a bit worse and dangerous.
I think most people feel under represented, whether you're inner city, country, islands etc. Is an iS going to improve the situation or will communities feel deserted by the government and ideology that they were promised?
GEDA - Member
Do small countries work very well when it all goes tits up and you are in a world of big bullying powers. Russia for example. I can see loads of benifits of IS but this is seen through the eyes of a very stable period of European history. Now things are starting to look a bit worse and dangerous.
Yes. The Switzerland option has appeal.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-29038296
TV debatePosted at 12:21
The SNP's Angus Robertson says a former British civil servant and Nato ambassador Marion Leslie has endorsed independence and asks why the prime minister has refused to debate Alex Salmond. Mr Cameron says that he offered to debate the first minister but he had "run away" from the idea.
What the f? That's just lies. Salmond get it sorted immediately.
One thing i picked up on last night
Has patrick harvie been following current events or does he live in a chinese pipe ?
The Switzerland option has appeal.
I'm sure it does, however Swizerland only seems to work because
i) They've all got guns
ii) They've got everyone else's money
The more pertinent real world example is where small independent countries with big finance (as Alex proposes for Scotland) like Iceland get pushed around when a bigger bully seizes their assets using anti terrorism powers... like we did. or steals their fishing grounds like, er, we did 😳
From Ayr,though my mums family are from the highlands where I have lived for 35 years
Fair to say Robertson didn't believe his answer
[img] 
[/img]
😆
In the letter that you posted is untrue, as I said!
Is 9.9% more or less than 9.3%?
Dont panic Seosamh I watched PMQs there was no mention of a debate between Alex Salmond and Cameron. There was a reference to Cameron agreeing to a live tv debate with undecided voters. Cameron said he gave STV a date but they never got back to him about it.
Ben, as you well know - 9.9% of taxation is £12 billion less than 9.3% of spending
Once again, the claim was:
[i]Scotland pays more in taxation to the Treasury than it gets back in funding.[/i]
Which remains untrue to the tune of 12 billion quid!
I know you'd like to wiggle around saying 'ah, yeah but, no but' because you posted it and you think its ace, but it doesn't get away from the fact that its not true - Scotland remains a subsidy junkie (so does England, but its right wing nutters like me that would like to see that changed rather than continue like the utopians)
Just another example of poor journalism from the BBC
Which remains untrue
Only if you insist on looking at absolute not relative figures - and it's relative figures which matter here because the issue was whether the rUK subsidises Scotland.
Which, since 9.9% is larger than 9.3%, it doesn't.
Is 9.9% more or less than 9.3%?
Are the figures correct, you should be asking.
And how are they calculated? It's easy to chuck them around cos you read them somewhere, but it would seem to me to be next to impossible to calculate the actual amount of money received and spend by Scotland...
Are the figures correct, you should be asking.And how are they calculated?
They come from GERS: http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2013/03/1859
The Switzerland option has appeal.
@epic, another country highly reliant on financial services and it has its own strong currency too 8)
I don't know how Luxembourg votes but the Swiss are to the right of the Tories. The Scots on here despite protestations of UK Labour not being left enough seek to emulate successful right wing countries.
The Scots on here despite protestations of UK Labour not being left enough seek to emulate successful right wing countries.
Again, that's confusing independence with SNP policies. A vote for independence is not a vote for SNP policies.
well it's a known fact that Yorkshire funds the rest of England, Scotland, Wales and NI. Our Mattress based domestic central bank contains all the funds need to maintain a stable economy.
Only if you insist on looking at absolute not relative figures - and it's relative figures which matter here because the issue was whether the rUK subsidises Scotland.Which, since 9.9% is larger than 9.3%, it doesn't.
Well, it must be subsidising you, because as you've previously pointed out on numerous occasions, the Debt built up paying the difference belongs to the UK, not Scotland.... 😉
here comes the prophet of doom!! Anyone else think we should change ninfans name to nostradamus? 😆ninfan - Member
Only if you insist on looking at absolute not relative figures - and it's relative figures which matter here because the issue was whether the rUK subsidises Scotland.
Which, since 9.9% is larger than 9.3%, it doesn't.
Well, it must be subsidising you, because as you've previously pointed out on numerous occasions, the Debt built up paying the difference belongs to the UK, not Scotland....
Do small countries work very well when it all goes tits up and you are in a world of big bullying powers. Russia for example.
Russia is a good example of a big crappy country that is crappy partly because it is big.
I wish this thread would get locked!
Would the Scots here mind sharing what region of Scotland you are from, out of interest?
Highlands & islands. Which apparently is likely to split from Scotland if it goes independent, whatever that means.
should lock it when the polling opens tbh, the gloating from which ever side is likely to be ridiculous!bigjim - Member
I wish this thread would get locked!
So how large is the UK's budget deficit? And how does that compare to the £12 billion above?
it's about 85billion, projections are to reduce this to a surplus in 2018.whatnobeer - Member
So how large is the UK's budget deficit? And how does that compare to the £12 billion above?
well was in feb
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-25944653
projections are to reduce this to a surplus in 2018
Yeah, right 😀
If the tories stay in charge, they probably will, problem then comes that the surplus will get turned in to more tax breaks and divvied up amoung "friends". Rather than put to good use.bencooper - Member
projections are to reduce this to a surplus in 2018
Yeah, right
And you know this because?problem then comes that the surplus will get turned in to more tax breaks and divvied up amoung "friends". Rather than put to good use
Or perhaps they'll use any surplus to start reducing the (probably) £1.7trillion debt we'll have by then. It'll only take a generation or so to sort that out.
Whoops, what a difference a year makes Ben:
[b]Scotland now accounts for 9.3 of the UK’s public spending and 9.1 per cent of the taxes paid to the Exchequer.
[/b]
The sharp increase in Scotland’s deficit coincided with North Sea oil revenues falling from £11.3 billion in 2011/12 to £6.6 billion the following year. Of the £4.7 billion total drop, the report said £4.4 billion occurred in the seas around Scotland.
[b]In another blow to the Yes campaign, the latest GERS report also showed that Scotland received 9.3% of UK public spending while 9.1% of taxes were raised north of the Border.
[/b]
The previous year's figures, showing Scotland contributed a higher proportion of tax than it received in public spending, had become a key part of the Yes campaign.
Good thing that independence isn't a forever thing, isn't it 😆
You forgot to copy and paste the bit explaining why there was a big one-year drop in oil revenues:
It blamed a “combination of unplanned production stoppages at several large gas fields and higher levels of maintenance activity.” Another factor was increased capital investment in the North Sea, which the report said had reduced companies’ tax liabilities.
So it's a one-year fluctuation, and a lot of it is because the oil companies are investing in new equipment. This raises two points:
- An oil fund is exactly what's needed to balance out fluctuations like this. We'll only get an oil fund with independence.
- If the oil is running out, why are the oil companies spending record amounts on new equipment?
Because what's left is so hard to get they need to to be able to get it.- If the oil is running out, why are the oil companies spending record amounts on new equipment?
[url= http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/12/12/uk-deficit-figures_n_4430765.html ]UK Deficit At £185 Billion, Not £90 Billion As George Osborne Says, Warn MPs[/url]
"The PAC report found that the government had written off £13.2 billion over the period due to fraud, error, negligence claims and debt management. It also estimated the annual tax cap, charting the difference between the amount of tax owed and paid, has risen to £35 billion."
😯 Wow, highlights the scale of the Scottish budget deficit.
Fluctuation oil revenues eh?
Glory be!
Wouldn't want to hedge your economy on that, would you?
Wouldn't want to hedge your economy on that, would you?
We don't, but even if we did this is again why an oil fund is a good idea. As a percentage, Norway gets twice as much from oil as Scotland would, and they manage the fluctuations okay.
How are you going to build up an oil fund while you're running a £12 billion deficit?
You do understand that the word fluctuation indicates that things go up as well as down.ninfan - Member
Fluctuation oil revenues eh?
It's a bit disingenuous to be talking about the lows of one year when you should be talking about the median revenue over a number.
Oh but I forgot all this financial stuff is far too difficult to understand! 😆
How are you going to build up an oil fund while you're running a £12 billion deficit?
Same way it's possible to have a savings account and a mortgage at the same time.
(yeah, I know, massive oversimplification)
Wouldn't the predicted revenues into the future be more relevant?
it's possible to have a savings account and a mortgage at the same time.
options:
i) reduce the mortgage
ii) keep money in a savings account
you go and work it out and see which option makes long term financial sense...
When trying to highlight a historical dip in tax revenue(which is what the no camp is trying to do), then no.ninfan - Member
Wouldn't the predicted revenues into the future be more relevant?
If the tories stay in charge, they probably will, problem then comes that the surplus will get turned in to more tax breaks and divvied up amoung "friends". Rather than put to good use.
Remind us which party last delivered a budget surplus?
You do realise why it's important to eliminate the deficit don't you? It's not tax breaks, there is a rather bigger iceberg out there....
And you need to build up reserves as you establish your own central bank - good job money grows in trees in yS fantasy land.
I'm not disagreeing that it's sensible to reduce the deficit.teamhurtmore - Member
If the tories stay in charge, they probably will, problem then comes that the surplus will get turned in to more tax breaks and divvied up amoung "friends". Rather than put to good use.
Remind us which party last delivered a budget surplus?You do realise why it's important to eliminate the deficit don't you? It's not tax breaks, there is a rather bigger iceberg out there....
- If the oil is running out, why are the oil companies spending record amounts on new equipment?
good lord man at least try to engage your brain, a schoolkid could answer that.
Good job that you are not voting for people who promise to cut taxes, raise spending and forget about unfunded liabilities then - oh, and want to joinable club that has certain entry requirements.
No surprise that the SNP do many of the things that Tories do - they just pretend otherwise. To repeat, the reality will be massively different from the utopian rhetoric - not surprising then that those who are voting NO come from a certain profile.
Salmond was in my home town today. I ended up going down and turning my back to him. Heard him at one stage over my shoulder shaking hands and talking with the people either side of me.
Never done anything like this before. I did have a laugh with one yes supporter. He asked if I was making a protest, I nodded. I liked his reply. He said "Well at least I noticed" I smiled back and thanked him.
good lord man at least try to engage your brain, a schoolkid could answer that.
Could the schoolkid do it without being patronising? Of course they're doing it because it's becoming more difficult to extract the reserves that are left - but they think it's worth the investment.
Salmond still confused about the pound today, days after admitting that the currency is not an asset he is spouting the "it's our pound" nonsense again.
The man has no shame.
Yet again, you seem unable to understand that a referendum is not an election.teamhurtmore - Member
Good job that you are not voting for people who promise to cut taxes, raise spending and forget about unfunded liabilities then - oh, and want to joinable club that has certain entry requirements.No surprise that the SNP do many of the things that Tories do - they just pretend otherwise. To repeat, the reality will be massively different from the utopian rhetoric - not surprising then that those who are voting NO come from a certain profile.
And they expect the tax incentives to follow which were proposed by the Oil & Gas Commission. So business takes more risk to achieve the harder to get supplies. And government collects less tax. So that's less tax on reducing supplies. Now, how do the numbers add up again?Of course they're doing it because it's becoming more difficult to extract the reserves that are left - but they think it's worth the investment.
You sound very staunch. Bet the boys in yer ludge will enjoy that story! 😆athgray - Member
Salmond was in my home town today. I ended up going down and turning my back to him. Heard him at one stage over my shoulder shaking hands and talking with the people either side of me.Never done anything like this before. I did have a laugh with one yes supporter. He asked if I was making a protest, I nodded. I liked his reply. He said "Well at least I noticed" I smiled back and thanked him.
Yet again, you seem unable to understand that a referendum is not an election.
How come? I am just able to discern BS, and pretty obvious BS at that, from fact. It helps in both cases. The poor folk of Europe made your error.
So it's a one-year fluctuation, and a lot of it is because the oil companies are investing in new equipment.
Shame then that the oil revenues are going to be even lower this year
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/mar/12/scotland-deficit-12bn-alex-salmond-damages-case-independence-economy-oil-revenues-fall
Because, every argument you make is talking about SNP policy. They may or may not be the first government of Scotland.teamhurtmore - Member
How come? I am just able to discern BS, and pretty obvious BS at that, from fact. It helps in both cases. The poor folk of Europe made your error.
The debate doesn't end and will widen after 19th September.
We understand that oil is a finite resource.aracer - Member
So it's a one-year fluctuation, and a lot of it is because the oil companies are investing in new equipment.
Shame then that the oil revenues are going to be even lower this year
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/mar/12/scotland-deficit-12bn-alex-salmond-damages-case-independence-economy-oil-revenues-fall
Because, every argument you make is talking about SNP policy.
Well I asked a few pages ago what the alternative policies were for iS and was met with deafening silence. Possibly because actually the SNP do a reasonable job of working with all the financial problems which will arise from independence and there isn't actually a better way to do things and balance the books.
We understand that oil is a finite resource.
Do you? Lots of claims that there won't be a problem despite the reliance of Scotland's economy on oil. Whoops, I forget, the numbers aren't important.
So good, we just put the book of dreams in the bin with the rest of the yS propaganda. I thought all the tax players money spent on this BS would mean that is worth looking at. Obviously not.....
I am glad that we agree that SNP garbage is just that.
Now can you point me in the direction of the non-SNP made cases please
For you 2 the argument ends on the 19th of september, for us up here it doesn't. After that the campaign for government begins.aracer - Member
Because, every argument you make is talking about SNP policy.
Well I asked a few pages ago what the alternative policies were for iS and was met with deafening silence. Possibly because actually the SNP do a reasonable job of working with all the financial problems which will arise from independence and there isn't actually a better way to do things and balance the books.POSTED 1 MINUTE AGO # REPORT-POST
teamhurtmore - Member
So good, we just put the book of dreams in the bin with the rest of the yS propaganda. I thought all the tax players money spent on this BS would mean that is worth looking at. Obviously not.....I am glad that SNP garbage is just that.
Now can you point me in the direction of the non-SNP made cases please
Ok, so what information are you using (other than SNP) to guide you in the post 19th scenario?
You do appreciate that the idea that this ends in the 18th is total bllx especially in the case of YES. It will create considerable and unnecessary uncertainty. And despite AS comments, unlikely to be harmonious discussions. The gloves really will come off at that point. Good job he has slimmed down in preparation. Now at fighting weight (or hopefully retirement weight). 😳
Even a NO, AS contempt has not gone unnoticed. And no, that is not a threat, it's just an observation. Proposing lose-lose situations rarely wins you friends.
The love is strong on this topic 😉
The information required for a yes vote is simply enough confidence that Scotland can go it alone. The message is clear that we can. (Only question remain is if enough people have the balls to follow that through)teamhurtmore - Member
Ok, so what information are you using (other than SNP) to guide you in the post 19th scenario?You do appreciate that the idea that this ends in the 18th is total bllx especially in the case of YES. It will create considerable and unnecessary uncertainty. And despite AS comments, unlikely to be harmonious discussions. The gloves really will come off at that point. Good job he has slimmed down in preparation. Now at fighting weight (or hopefully retirement weight).
Even a NO, AS contempt has not gone unnoticed. And no, that is not a threat, it's just an observation. Proposing lose-lose situations rarely wins you friends.
If it's a yes vote, I think we are all aware that rUK will be vindictive. (That's not really an endearing attribute likely to make us stay.)
The love is so strong that we want you all *in our team!!
Well, obviously there are some exception outside STW but they dont need to be mentioned. Nicola will have plans for substituting him herself. Next manager on Man U or peace envoy?
Yes, we do, we also understand that 20 years(worst case scenario for the oil running out) is a long time in economic terms. And that you can do alot of diversification to an economy in the mean time making it less reliant on oil.aracer - Member
We understand that oil is a finite resource.
Do you? Lots of claims that there won't be a problem despite the reliance of Scotland's economy on oil. Whoops, I forget, the numbers aren't important.
Hell here's a revolutionary idea, spend some of the oil wealth on diversification rather than tax breaks.