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the no campaign is being push by certain types with no interest in society but only their [s]personal wealth[/s] generous expenses?
[url= http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-news/6083-labour-mp-jim-murphy-caught-up-in-new-expenses-row ]FTFY[/url]
futon river crossing - Member
Unless I missed it, no one has commented on iScotland being unable to join the EU without a central bank?
Is that a problem? Easily solved - a government act to establish it, and it would be up and running within a year.
[i]Would you like to point out these 'certain types'? Or should I make the accusation that the no campaign is being push by certain types with no interest in society but only their personal wealth?[/i]
Personal wealth? What?
You're just reinforcing that it's all about the Politics of envy. Its a fact that in life, certain people have more money than others....get over it! If this is what its all about, I feel sorry for you!
In this case it looks like the No vote is being driven by the oldest voters http://www1.politicalbetting.com/?p=70596&preview=true
Looks 'dim'...def: Stupid or slow to understand:
Thank you, yes, I do know what the word "dim" means - what I'm impressed by is that you seem able to predict the IQ of someone on TV who doesn't say a word. I'm wondering what particular physical features you use to come to that estimate of intelligence?
Personal wealth? What?You're just reinforcing that it's all about the Politics of envy. Its a fact that in life, vertain people have more money than others....get over it! If this is what its all about, I feel sorry for you!
No, I was making what is an equally ridiculous claim. It's not about the money.
molgrips - MemberI am sympathetic to your point of view, but ultimately I feel it's futile.
And the only reason for making this drastic decision is that you "hope" it'll be different.
Far more tangible is your reasoning that if we stay we can change Britain for the better of course. 🙄
[i]Thank you, yes, I do know what the word "dim" means - what I'm impressed by is that you seem able to predict the IQ of someone on TV who doesn't say a word. I'm wondering what particular physical features you use to come to that estimate of intelligence?[/i]
lets just say that after 53 years on the planet, Ive come to spot them quite easily! Call it experience!
[i]Is that a problem? Easily solved - a government act to establish it, and it would be up and running within a year.[/i]
You're just spouting more Salmond rhetoric....you and he appear to have no idea of what is involved!
More mature people, woman and professionals able to see thru the BS. Exactly, experience counts in the end.....
(Oops almost forget the 16-18 year olds too - equally good at spotting BS)
the [s]no[/s][b]Yes[/b] campaign is being [s]push[/s][b]led[/b] by certain types with no interest in society but only their personal wealth generous expenses?
FIFY
Far more tangible is your reasoning that if we stay we can change Britain for the better of course.
If you stay, you can help, if you leave you definitely can't.
Most people seem to want to remain in the UK but have more devolution. People on this thread even. So why leave? You'll never get what you want then.
whatnobeer - Member
It's not about the money.
On the contrary, right from the off it has been focused exactly on this point. Almost down to the last pound - why have both sides given the independence bonus/forfeit so much attention?
On the contrary, right from the off it has been focused exactly on this point. Almost down to the last pound - why have both sides given the independence bonus/forfeit so much attention?
Because the No campaign has been almost completely about how Scotland is "too wee, too poor", so the Yes campaign has to counter that.
Rockape63 - Member
"Is that a problem? Easily solved - a government act to establish it, and it would be up and running within a year."
You're just spouting more Salmond rhetoric....you and he appear to have no idea of what is involved!
Did Salmond say that? I don't know.
What I do know is that Australia established a central bank by a government act in 1911 and it was up and running in 1912.
So perhaps you can tell me why, in this day and age Scotland could not do the same thing. Or judging by your earlier post, maybe you think we are too dim?
[i]Far more tangible is your reasoning that if we stay we can change Britain for the better of course.[/i]
Lets look at the evidence. In my lifetime Britain has changed massively although much of it IMO some not particular improvements, but we all live lives our Parents/Grandparents would not have believed possible. Why wouldn't that continue?
There are a lot of people with short memories.....if this vote had taken place 7 years ago when everything was rosy, what would they be saying? And yet, 7 years is a brief moment in time.
You really think the economics of Australia in 1912 is the same as Scotland in 2014?
If you stay, you can help, if you leave you definitely can't.
Yes, but I'll ask again - how? We've tried voting differently at the ballot box, it hasn't worked. What we can do is give the establishment the biggest fright of it's life - what the rest of the UK does with that opportunity is up to you.
molgrips - Member
You really think the economics of Australia in 1912 is the same as Scotland in 2014?
No, but the ability of the people is.
I notice you haven't said it could not be done.
So if the ability is the same but the task is far harder, then it stays far more difficult. Which was my point.
Yes, but I'll ask again - how?
I already gave some ideas.
Your lack of ideas is not a good reason to increase division between people and economies imo.
[i]No, but the ability of the people is.[/i]
Listen, I'm not an International Banker, but with the EC situation now its clearly not like Oz in 1912. The point is your answer is typical of the Salmond response to all those issues.
It'll be fine.......!
What I just cannot understand is why everyone is distracted by these independent Scotlandshire ramblings when the real issue is not touched upon.
Freedom for Yorkshire!
If you stay, you can help, if you leave you definitely can't.
[i]Yes, but I'll ask again - how? We've tried voting differently at the ballot box, it hasn't worked. What we can do is give the establishment the biggest fright of it's life - what the rest of the UK does with that opportunity is up to you.
[/i]
The fright of its life? Perhaps 50% of 10% of the population vote against the Union. Think about it.
Are there going to be import and export taxes placed on British trade?
I already gave some ideas.
Join the Labour party? Lots of Scots in the Labour party at the moment, and they don't seem to be doing anything to help move Labour to the left, more the opposite.
[i]Join the Labour party? Lots of Scots in the Labour party at the moment, and they don't seem to be doing anything to help move Labour to the left, more the opposite.[/i]
You do realise that moving further to the left will mean higher taxes? The two go hand in hand. And before you say, great we can spend it all on the poor, look at France. Their high earners have been leaving in droves and with the border to England not far away, it will be a very simple thing to do.
Labour tax policies are more progressive than the SNPs Ben, so your argument doesn't hold up. The SNP is nowhere near as progressive as the attempted narrative suggests.
The fright of its life? Perhaps 50% of 10% of the population vote against the Union. Think about it.
The UK would lose 32% of it's land area, 61% of the sea area, 90% of the surface fresh water, 96% of the oil reserves, 47% of coal, 62% of timber, 92% of hydro electricity, 60% of fish landings,...
Rockape63 - Member
Listen, I'm not an International Banker, but with the EC situation now its clearly not like Oz in 1912. The point is your answer is typical of the Salmond response to all those issues.It'll be fine.......!
Of course it will be fine. The current govt of Scotland has been running the country well for a few years and already demonstrated its competence.
And although Australia in 1911 is different from Scotland in 2014, there are no insuperable problems to a sovereign country setting up its own bank, so why should it take an excessive amount of time?
Labour tax policies are more progressive than the SNPs Ben, so your argument doesn't hold up.
Just as well I'm not voting for the SNP then. My argument holds up fine. A Scottish Labour party out from under the thumb of the Westminster Labour party could be a real socialist party again - I'd hope so.
bencooper - Member
The UK would lose 32% of it's land area, 61% of the sea area, 90% of the surface fresh water, 96% of the oil reserves, 47% of coal, 62% of timber, 92% of hydro electricity, 60% of fish landings,...
And yet, this has nothing to do with the UK apparently!!!!!!
You can vote for them already.
And yet, this has nothing to do with the UK apparently!!!!!!
Yes, just like losing the huge natural resources of Canada was a matter for the Canadian people not the UK.
You can vote for them already.
Who?
The UK would lose 32% of it's land area, 61% of the sea area, 90% of the surface fresh water, 96% of the oil reserves, 47% of coal, 62% of timber, 92% of hydro electricity, 60% of fish landings,...
what % of midges?
Anyway....whats going to happen if you vote No? Are you (yes voters)going to hate the English even more? Will it create huge divisions in Scottish society? Or will you all shake hands and move on?
😕
Most people seem to want to remain in the UK but have more devolution. People on this thread even. So why leave? You'll never get what you want then.
Devo Max was not an option,as uncertainty is one of the biggest weapons of the No campaign. CA has been spouting on about Salmond's BS for 278 pages,yet every vague suggestion of more powers for Scotland is apparently gospel. Nobody up here believes that there will not be a price to pay for daring to even mention leaving.
what % of midges?
Shhh, that's what we'll be burning for fuel when the oil runs out...
98%.big_n_daft - Member
The UK would lose 32% of it's land area, 61% of the sea area, 90% of the surface fresh water, 96% of the oil reserves, 47% of coal, 62% of timber, 92% of hydro electricity, 60% of fish landings,...
what % of midges?
btw I think I've sussed what this is all about. Don't worry people, we're not setting up a break away singletrackworld, we'll still come here and shoot the shit with you. We are separtists, not isolationists! 😀
Are you (yes voters)going to hate the English even more?
We don't hate the English. Lots of Yes voters are English.
teamhurtmore - Member
And yet, this has nothing to do with the UK apparently!!!!!!
It has a lot to do with the UK.
If it had kept faith with the Scottish electorate and ensured that some of the benefits of the wealth benefitted the areas it was being drawn from, this would not be happening.
Instead it contemptuously labelled the Scots as "subsidy junkies".
In hindsight, it may well be that that and a general air of contempt will be shown to be the largest factors in persuading individual Scots that they should get out of the UK.
It is a major undercurrent to this thread.
So bigotry wins the day. Brilliant.
teamhurtmore - Member
So bigotry wins the day. Brilliant.
It's ok. Lost the day, actually. We will forgive you for it. 🙂
If we can climb out of the crab bucket instead of being dragged back in, we can help others climb out too.
But the Yessers still haven't proposed how they intend to climb out of the bucket, they've just proposed a proportionally smaller bucket.
There are companies in Scotland serving the whole UK who would quite possibly lose 90% of their business if it cannot be exported. So they would have to move.
This is rubbish. Plenty of companies are owned abroad and do business inside the UK and vice versa.
Scotland is part of Britain, so yes it is my country...what's changing is that a large number of my political allies are leaving. Can't you understand why that represents a loss to me?
Sorry, just to be clear - is it correct that you're a non-Scot living outside Scotland who has never lived in Scotland and has no present intention of living in Scotland?
I reckon you'll get over the heartbreak soon enough...
But the Yessers still haven't proposed how they intend to climb out of the bucket, they've just proposed a proportionally smaller bucket.
A proportionally smaller but more democratically representative bucket, without nuclear weapons 😉
How? Who can I vote for who has a realistic chance of getting into power and changing things? Labour? Yeah, right, we fell for that one before
So which Scottish party is going to deliver that @ben ? If none of the UK Labour Party (with 10 years in power), Lib Dems or Conservatives can deliver what you want, what does the Scottish political landscape have to offer that's so different ? Surely the reality is that what you are looking for isn't really achievable in practice, it's classic politics to promise the earth and then fail to deliver. Reality is a bit tougher than utopia.
@epic no matter what would have happened in Scotland in the last 10 or 20 years there would have been a strong Yes campaign. If Scotland had enjoyed fabulous success the Scots would have argued it shows how they can stand on their own two feet and in fact would have been even better had they been independent. The rhetoric wouldn't have changed.
Nobody up here believes that there will not be a price to pay for daring to even mention leaving.
project feart is working then
If it had kept faith with the Scottish electorate and ensured that some of the benefits of the wealth benefitted the areas it was being drawn from, this would not be happening.
Aberdeen is a desolate wasteland then?
Instead it contemptuously labelled the Scots as "subsidy junkies".
everyone in rUK or just some people who get too much air time in the media? Are the Welsh and NI calling you this?
In hindsight, it may well be that that and a general air of contempt will be shown to be the largest factors in persuading individual Scots that they should get out of the UK.
the only contempt from rUK I see is for the proposition put forward by the elected members of the Scottish Parliament. Scots are proud but so are the people of rUK, Independence is one thing but expecting rUK to then subsidise a CU, pay cross border green energy subsidies, and incur all the costs of relocating elements of the civil service out of iS to serve rUK (and the rest of the list) is another. For rUK (and I believe for iS) there are considerable downsides for breaking up the Union and I think that our imperfect system still gives us a great place to live
but it's your vote and rUK and the system you despise has accepted that Scotland can choose to carve it's own path
No is an affirmation of the Union and working together for the future
Yes is for a divorce where we all scramble to protect our self interest (and rUK gets the kids)
So which Scottish party is going to deliver that @ben ? If none of the UK Labour Party (with 10 years in power), Lib Dems or Conservatives can deliver what you want, what does the Scottish political landscape have to offer that's so different ? Surely the reality is that what you are looking for isn't really achievable in practice, it's classic politics to promise the earth and then fail to deliver. Reality is a bit tougher than utopia.
Maybe when the main parties in Scotland (out side of the SNP) aren't taking hints and tips from the parties south of the border then there will a policy shift? It might focus the mind a bit, eh?
This is interesting - a geographic online survey of Scottish independence:
[img] 
[/img]
http://games.usvsth3m.com/scotchland-postcode-referendum/
Some pretty sharp dividing lines going on there.
big_n_daft - Member
"Instead it contemptuously labelled the Scots as "subsidy junkies"."everyone in rUK or just some people who get too much air time in the media? Are the Welsh and NI calling you this?
Don't know about NI, but was that not the leader of the Welsh Assembly recently saying Scotland was getting too big a slice of the cake?
Somebody better have a word with Plaid Cymru then, if that is true then they are also out of touch!!!! 😉
Is that McCartney on the M of Kintyre?
epicyclo - Memberteamhurtmore - Member
So bigotry wins the day. Brilliant.It's ok. Lost the day, actually. We will forgive you for it.
Boom tish! An uncomfortable fact is the bigotry and borderline racial slurs displayed on this thread haven't come from the yessirs.
BignDaft, not based on project feart,more the quotes from the current and possible future PM's of Britain.
bencooper - Member
This is interesting - a geographic online survey of Scottish independence:
At the moment they are showing 78% in Scotland for Yes.
Probably a few dedicated cybernats clicking away so they are not cancelled out by the employed BT trolls. 🙂
Or in other words, I'll be delighted if that's the result, but I'll believe it when I see it.
BignDaft, not based on project feart,more the quotes from the current and possible future PM's of Britain.
quotes not policies, some from people not even in parliament but representing the city they are a mayor of
if there is "project fear" then there is "project feart" based on the same uncertainties of future reality
Sorry, just to be clear - is it correct that you're a non-Scot living outside Scotland who has never lived in Scotland and has no present intention of living in Scotland?
Yes.
However I am a Brit who has lived in Britain most of his life and will continue to do so. A third of Britain is going along with a shitload of its resources and a load of my electoral allies.
So why should I not care?
If Northern England left, should I care?
If North Wales left, should I care?
If North Cardiff left, should I care?
Of course! The only reason you think I shouldn't care is because it's SCOTLAND and you think it's another country. So that argument again comes down to pure nationalism.
Bad luck Yes campaign. George Monbiot has come out in favour of Independence.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/02/scots-independence-england-scotland
Still, it was nice while the dream lasted.
Or in other words, I'll be delighted if that's the result, but I'll believe it when I see it.
Yes, I don't think we can rely on the absolute numbers - online polls are notoriously inaccurate - it was more the geographic picture I found interesting.
Dear England,
During the course of this referendum campaign, you have been told many distortions of the truth and fabrications about Scotland and why people in Scotland are voting Yes.
You have been told by the likes of Andrew Marr and Jeremy Paxman that there is a strong anti-English feeling in Scotland driving support for independence, or that people in Scotland are voting yes because they want to break away from English people. You have been told by the likes of Taxpayer’s Alliance and UKIP that Scotland is a ‘subsidy-junkie’ leaching off the English taxpayer to pay for universal public services. You have been told by the likes of the Daily Telegraph and Kelvin McKenzie that Scotland is a resourceless nation, an economic desert, which has little to offer this island or the world. And finally, you have been told by your own politicians – David Cameron, Nick Clegg and Ed Miliband – that independence will hurt you in England as much as it will hurt us in Scotland.
We write to you, as English people living and working in Scotland, to tell you that this is false. The movement for a yes vote has proven again and again what its real intentions are, and if the media in the UK will not listen we feel it is our duty to set the record straight.
First, as English people involved in the independence movement, we feel we are confident in saying that sentiment against English people has been virtually non-existent in our movement. What people in Scotland want to escape is the Westminster regime, not the English people. The yes movement is about a multi-cultural Scotland, a Scotland based on diversity, and is vociferously opposed to the racist, anti-immigrant sentiment of the likes of UKIP. An independent Scotland would attempt to learn from people in England, welcome people from England, and extend our hand of friendship as equal nations.
Second, it is untrue that Scotland is a ‘subsidy-junkie’. Scotland pays more in taxation to the Treasury than it gets back in funding. We have universal public services in Scotland like free prescriptions and free tuition fees because Holyrood has been responsive enough to the wishes of the Scottish people. It would be entirely possible to have the same in England if your politicians got their priorities correct. We hope, as an independent country, Scotland can prove that world-class universal public services is affordable, and that people in England who believe the same can use our example when deciding who to vote for.
Third, Scotland and her people have great potential, just like England and her people do, and we want to be an independent nation so that we can make the most of that potential. We are currently held back, just like the North of England is held back, by a UK economy and political system which supports international finance against all other industry sectors. In the UK we have the greatest regional inequality in Europe. That is a problem for Scotland and for the rest of the UK. We want independence to start addressing that problem..
Lastly, the politicians of the UK’s main parties are simply wrong. Independence will be good for Scotland, and it will be good for England. Yes voters in Scotland have no bitterness or resentment towards people in England; in fact we believe the relationship north and south of the border will grow stronger, as we both treat one another as serious partners and friends economically, socially and politically.
Yours faithfully,
English Scots for Yes
http://www.englishscotsforyes.org/a-letter-to-england/
Lastly, the politicians of the UK’s main parties are simply wrong. Independence will be good for Scotland, and it will be good for England.
1) Why would it be good for England?
2) What about the Welsh? Who cares about them eh?! Seriously, if you're Scottish and you feel you're being overlooked and ignored, try being Welsh!
Ben, for a start:
Scotland pays more in taxation to the Treasury than it gets back in funding.
This is utterly untrue
[i]In 2012-13, Scotland?s estimated net fiscal balance was a deficit of £17.6 billion (14.0%
of GDP) when excluding North Sea revenue, a deficit of £17.1 billion (13.3% of GDP)
when including a per capita share of North Sea revenue, or a deficit of £12.1 billion
(8.3% of GDP) when an illustrative geographical share of North Sea revenue is included.[/i]
Clacton by election poll:
UKIP 64%
Tories 20%
Labour 13%
Lib Dems 2%
aye, better together! 😐
Scotland doesn't like being ruled by Westminster, North England doesn't like being ruled by Westminster, Wales & NI don't like being ruled by Westminster (I've even met people in Southampton who don't like being ruled by Westminster). The answer then isn't so much iScotland, but independent London and leave the rest of us to run our own affairs as regionally best fits our needs. No HS2, no Trident, no London Airports or Boris Island to subsidise.
Break away, we have no power to help you.molgrips - Member
2) What about the Welsh? Who cares about them eh?! Seriously, if you're Scottish and you feel you're being overlooked and ignored, try being Welsh!
Of course! The only reason you think I shouldn't care is because it's SCOTLAND and you think it's another country. So that argument again comes down to pure nationalism.
I think you're confusing me with someone else.
I think the reason why you shouldn't care is because you don't seem to have any skin in the game. if you really cared, you would have some sort of history or interest or connection to Scotland. but you don't seem to and it won't make bugger all difference to your life in practical terms. so I wouldn't worry about it.
This is utterly untrue
We've done this before. Scotland runs a deficit, like the rest of the UK, and like almost every country in the world. The difference is made up by borrowing. But if you look at percentages, Scotland puts in 9.9% of the total tax take and receives 9.3% of the total UK spending.
think the reason why you shouldn't care is because you don't seem to have any skin in the game.
Is my economy not going to be affected?
Will devolution for Wales ever be considered again seriously, without Scotland?
The answer then isn't so much iScotland, but independent London and leave the rest of us to run our own affairs as regionally best fits our needs.
AKA devo max.
If I were in Scotland I'd tell Salmond to **** off with his divisive politics and have a debate about devo max instead. When you want oranges, why the hell are you taking an offer of apples or pears seriously? Makes no sense.
Will devolution for Wales ever be considered again seriously, without Scotland?
Absolutely. At the moment, Scotland is at the top of Whitehall's "got to keep the natives happy" list, but once Scotland leaves then the attention will shift to making sure Wales doesn't do the same.
Why so confident Ben?
Why so confident Ben?
About Scottish independence? I'd say I'm more hopeful than confident. Though the past week or so is the first time I've started to think we might actually win this.
molgrips - Member
1) Why would it be good for England?2) What about the Welsh? Who cares about them eh?! Seriously, if you're Scottish and you feel you're being overlooked and ignored, try being Welsh!
1. I think the English people who wrote that were directing it at their fellow English people in England.
2. No one can care about the Welsh more than the Welsh. In many ways what the Welsh have done culturally is a bit of inspiration for Scotland. Now they need to take the next step . Or maybe a new Owain Glynd?r could make use of the the 600 armoured cars being built in Wales. 🙂
Ben: No I meant why so confident that the Welsh will get increased devoution?
We got a pretty shitty slice of the pie last time if you remember.
How are plaid out of touch thm?
Or maybe a new Owain Glynd?r could make use of the the 600 armoured cars being built in Wales.
Yes, what's the deal with that? Someone thinking about a new land war with someone?
Ben: No I meant why so confident that the Welsh will get increased devoution?We got a pretty shitty slice of the pie last time if you remember.
You did. I guess because Welsh independence wasn't seen as such a big threat that it had to be countered with as much devolution as we got. That didn't really work out, though, devolution only really encouraged Scottish independence.
I have family in North Wales, but don't live there, I don't have any feel for how people view things - but my feeling is that Wales is on the same road as Scotland, just not so far along it.
One issue with iS giving us all a voice, is that everyone will expect to be heard. There is no way a Scottish Government can meet the needs of the disparate population, so maybe it's just as well we currently get ignored by Westminster. When we did have independence, the Highlands hated the Lowlanders and didn't like being run by Edinburgh. The west coast hated the east coast and didn't like being run by Edinburgh and the Borders hated being stuck in no-mans-land and switched allegiance as it suited them. Can't see why this would change with a modern iS.
my feeling is that Wales is on the same road as Scotland, just not so far along it.
It would be interesting. I wonder if the UK could actually be replaced with a set of sharing agreements? Free trade, military co-operation, open borders etc?
I might vote for that.
@amatuer, couple of answers to that:
- That was 300 years ago, populations shift and change, opinions alter. You can't assume that everyone will revert to what their forefathers believed three centuries ago.
- There wasn't a democratic parliament in Scotland 300 years ago.
We've moved on a little from the clan system and absolute monarchies of the 16/1700s! 😀 ffs, you serious? 😆amatuer - Member
One issue with iS giving us all a voice, is that everyone will expect to be heard. There is no way a Scottish Government can meet the needs of the disparate population, so maybe it's just as well we currently get ignored by Westminster. When we did have independence, the Highlands hated the Lowlanders and didn't like being run by Edinburgh. The west coast hated the east coast and didn't like being run by Edinburgh and the Borders hated being stuck in no-mans-land and switched allegiance as it suited them. Can't see why this would change with a modern iS.
first step is an independent wales.molgrips - Member
my feeling is that Wales is on the same road as Scotland, just not so far along it.
It would be interesting. I wonder if the UK could actually be replaced with a set of sharing agreements? Free trade, military co-operation, open borders etc?I might vote for that.
I wouldn't take that leap without the next step being in place..
It would be interesting. I wonder if the UK could actually be replaced with a set of sharing agreements? Free trade, military co-operation, open borders etc?
That would be a perfect solution for me too - independent countries, but in the same trade area (the EU), the same military alliance (NATO), open borders (Schengen) - that's exactly what we want for Scotland, and it would be fantastic if Wales could join us in that too, along with any other nation that wants to.
amatuer - Member
...When we did have independence, the Highlands hated the Lowlanders and didn't like being run by Edinburgh. The west coast hated the east coast and didn't like being run by Edinburgh and the Borders hated being stuck in no-mans-land and switched allegiance as it suited them. Can't see why this would change with a modern iS.
Perhaps 300 years, roads, air travel, telecommunications, and the internet makes a difference?