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Define fairier then Ben?
Nice to see dear Nicola telling the rUK that a CU was in their best interests tonight. Put the other way round and that is considered hectoring or bullying. Plus we don't need people, who don't understand how currencies work, lecturing us. More hypocrisy and cheesy lines like Alexander being Team Tories. Pity you can't be straight hey Nicola.
You have often define trident in economic terms and ditto "fairer".So make your mind up. Anyway you cannot escape the fact that we are all economists since we all have to allocate scarce resources to unlimited wants.
It's after 11pm and people are running - running! - to register to vote. In our normally apathetic democracy with steadily reducing voter turnouts, that's absolutely astounding and wonderful.
It's also indicative of their untidy minds. It's worth remembering that whether you're yes or no, your vote will likely be cancelled out by one of these buffoons who didn't think to register until the very, very last stroke of midnight. I wonder what else has slipped past them unawares whilst they were forming an opinion on the referendum.
The deceit?
It's also indicative of their untidy minds
Ah yes, of course, they're just untidy buffoons. They're probably unemployed too. Nothing to do with the fact that people feel disenfranchised and there's no point being registered to vote when voting makes no difference. Now they're realising, for the first time in their lives maybe, that it's worth voting for something.
But hey, easier to belittle people.
You have often define trident in economic term
I have, because it is a colossal waste of money. But getting rid of it is a moral issue, not a financial one. Even if it didn't save us a penny, I'd still think independence was worth it to get rid of the things. They have no place in a civilised country, any more than the death penalty does.
What if they are NO voters Ben waking up to the nonsense being spouted by YS? They had been complacent before (bad mistake) but now realise that sanity must prevail?
possibly true and a good economic argument - so c'mon be consistent! 😉I have, because it is a colossal waste of money.
If they are, then fine - more people caring about how their country is run is a good thing, no matter which way they vote.
However I don't think they're No voters, somehow.
Whether we should go it alone isn't about money. It's about democracy, it's about getting rid of Trident, it's about trying to create a fairer society.
but AS is saying that Scotland will be the new Luxemburg (AKA the richest country in the world) and rUK Belgium
thanks Alex
but AS is saying that Scotland will be the new Luxemburg (AKA the richest country in the world) and rUK Belgium
thanks Alex
I don't care. A vote for independence is not a vote for the SNP.
watching the debate, the statements from the nationalists are the type of thing the nazis were spouting in the 30's
cant believe I am hearing it,
watching the debate, the statements from the nationalists are the type of thing the nazis were spouting in the 30's
Boom! Godwin. You win the internetz.
Sancho - Member
watching the debate, the statements from the nationalists are the type of thing the nazis were spouting in the 30'scant believe I am hearing it,
We are ironing our Tartan Shirts as you speak.
Tomorrow will be Scotland's darkest hour - Egg Shinty* Nicht.
We have the names of the enemy, parliamentary expenses fiddlers to a man, and we are fully armed with fowl produce.
*acknowledgements to KonaBunny
this fair sums up how out of touch you are with what's actually happening up here!teamhurtmore - Member
What if they are NO voters Ben waking up to the nonsense being spouted by YS? They had been complacent before (bad mistake) but now realise that sanity must prevail?
Sancho - Member
HahhahahhahahahahhahahhahHa 😆
Saw the news tonight.
Just LOVED the remark about Scotland being the new Luxembourg. Luxembourg a country based on tax evasion whether that be Germans carrying suitcases of money to avoid high taxes at home or global businesses locating their "brass plate" head offices there to avoid corporate taxes. I don't have too many good things to say about George Galloway but he had it absolutely right when he said an independent Scotland will engage in a race to the bottom on tax rates which will be to the detriment of the average working person.
jambalaya - Member
....I don't have too many good things to say about George Galloway but he had it absolutely right when he said an independent Scotland will engage in a race to the bottom on tax rates which will be to the detriment of the average working person.
I don't believe a word Gorgeous George says either, so perhaps you can tell us how Luxembourg's race to the bottom has been to the detriment of its average working person?
So what's the point of the economic arguments then?
Whether we should go it alone isn't about money. It's about democracy, it's about getting rid of Trident, it's about trying to create a fairer society.
because the state can't help create a fairer society if it doesn't have any m-m-money!
so perhaps you can tell us how Luxembourg's race to the bottom has been to the detriment of its average working person?
The average worker in Luxembourg has a greater risk of being 'in poverty' than one from the UK and more than double that of their neighbours from the other Benelux countries(LU 9%, UK 8%, BE&NL 4%). A single parent in Luxembourg is one of the most likely people in Europe to be in poverty!
[url= http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/cache/ITY_OFFPUB/KS-RA-10-015/EN/KS-RA-10-015-EN.PDF ]Source[/url]
it's about trying to create a fairer society
It's about turning your back on the rest of us in the UK as we struggle to do just that... You do realise the UK isn't actually full of Tories don't you?
It's about turning your back on the rest of us in the UK as we struggle to do just that...
We've had this argument before. How can we help you? We've tried not voting for the Tories, but that didn't work as Scotland is too small to meaningfully influence UK elections. So apart from that, what can Scotland do?
One thing we can do is show a different way. The reason voter turnout falls year after year is that people don't see the point in voting. People think that the way it is is the way it always will be. What an independent Scotland can do to help is show the rest of the UK that they don't have to accept the status quo.
If we can climb out of the crab bucket instead of being dragged back in, we can help others climb out too.
I don't believe a word Gorgeous George says either, so perhaps you can tell us how Luxembourg's race to the bottom has been to the detriment of its average working person?
@epic - George's comments weren't in relation to Luxembourg. What he was saying was that an independent Scotland would compete with the UK in a "race to the bottom" in terms of lower businesses taxes and reduced workers rights in order to attract and retain companies. Lower taxes of course means less money for welfare and other social projects. This would be very much to the detriment of the average working person both sides of the border.
molgrips - Member
It's about turning your back on the rest of us in the UK as we struggle to do just that... You do realise the UK isn't actually full of Tories don't you?
If the rest of the UK was turning out in droves on the streets, canvassing, filling town hall meetings, and had an actual pro democracy movement, you would be justified in saying that.
But that isn't happening. All we can hope for is that Scotland's departure fires up a popular movement to do just that.
It's in your hands. It should be easy now we have shown how to take on the Establishment in the face of a hostile press and media..
You can be the person to start an rUK democratic movement. Start by talking to your neighbours, and their neighbours. This campaign is succeeding because it has been done person to person rather than relying on the media. When you get the people talking and active in a cause, you get democracy.
Do it instead of blaming us.
This fairer society debate is a red herring, political sound bites.
You create a fair society by ensuring equal opportunity for all, by investing in education and healthcare, by the creation of employment opportunities and allowing your citizens to live safely wherever they are. You cannot and never will create a fairer society by attempting to redistribute wealth via tax policy. If you look around the world you will see that Western Europe has the fairest societies.
Here is a scenario where Scotland becomes "fairer" after a Yes vote. Standard Life relocates its head office to the UK in order to remain regulated by the UK FCA (no Scottish equivalent has been proposed). The majority of the senior executives and their support teams move to the UK. The rank and file employees remain in Scotland working for a service company subsidiary. With the majority of the high paid jobs now in the UK (and the majority of the corporate tax revenue) Scotland is now a fairer place as the gap between the low and high paid has been reduced.
[i]I have, because it is a colossal waste of money. But getting rid of it is a moral issue, not a financial one. Even if it didn't save us a penny, I'd still think independence was worth it to get rid of the things. They have no place in a civilised country, any more than the death penalty does.[/i]
What a utopia the independent Scotland sounds. Having watched and listened to the various debates as an impartial bystander, Ive come to the conclusion, that Salmond should just come out with the truth instead of spouting the endless claptrap regarding oil, the currency, welfare etc.
And that is, in a nutshell......[b]'We don't like you and we want nothing more to do with you'![/b]
Which is fine, if not a typical chip on the shoulder attitude.....but an attitude that will affect Scotland for years after his demise, possibly detrimentally. Its a huge gamble!
jambalaya - Member
...@epic - George's comments weren't in relation to Luxembourg. What he was saying was that an independent Scotland would compete with the UK in a "race to the bottom" in terms of lower businesses taxes and reduced workers rights in order to attract and retain companies. Lower taxes of course means less money for welfare and other social projects.
I could see the value of lowering corporate taxes to a certain extent. Many corporations based in Scotland currently are headquartered in London so pay their taxes there. A lower rate would attract them up here and the total tax take would be higher. I can see your point about a race to the bottom, but I don't think there is any intention of doing a Luxembourg here.
As for the destruction of workers rights and conditions, that's really a consequence of the main UK parties being beholden to their large political donors and media barons.
Independence in Scotland will have been won by active participation of the people, so it's unlikely that there will be the same political will to dance to the corporate tune. I think workers rights will be safer than in rUK.
Any arguments about workers rights and conditions needs to be balanced as to what a business can afford. We have better rights than the US, India, ****stan, ... Not as good as Germany and France - but look at the issues that are happening in France and the understanding the balance is not right at the moment.
As at all times, nothing is perfect. Zero hour contracts should be banned. The minimum wage should be set to the living wage, this would allow the government not have to top up wages through the tax and benefit system. Which should mean lower taxes. However workers rights in the UK are good and while some demand that we move to a US model, this won't happen. Our right wing Tory party would be left of centre in the US
But this may or may not happen in an iScotland. Regardless of 'active participation of the people' the big contributors to an economy will always have a bigger impact on politics. This is just reality. Ifteh demand on the corporates get too much, then they will leave Scotland and relocate to just over the border.
Ive come to the conclusion, that Salmond should just come out with the truth instead of spouting the endless claptrap regarding oil, the currency, welfare etc.
Why would he abandon a policy which is working so well for him?
but I don't think there is any intention of doing a Luxembourg here.
So what did Sir BS mean by suggesting that iS could be like Luxembourg? Oh sorry, I forgot he'll say anything if he thinks it will win him a vote.
Independence in Scotland will have been won by active participation of the people, so it's unlikely that there will be the same political will to dance to the corporate tune.
They already are.
You create a fair society by ensuring equal opportunity for all, by investing in education and healthcare, by the creation of employment opportunities and allowing your citizens to live safely wherever they are.
That sounds fantastic - now which Westminster party should I vote for to get that?
And that is, in a nutshell......'We don't like you and we want nothing more to do with you'!Which is fine, if not a typical chip on the shoulder attitude
Ooh, the irony 😀
It really isn't about you. It's about us.
How can we help you?
Solidarity.
Solidarity.
Ah. So we should go down with the sinking ship instead of getting into the lifeboat.
How can we help you in actual, practical terms?
Our right wing Tory party wouldbe left of centre in the US
My understanding is that they're somewhat more liberal than the Democrats!
Ah. So we should go down with the sinking ship
No you can grab a bucket.
In practical terms, by voting left at the ballot box. How many Labour party members will be lost, incidentally? As opposed to voters?
And that is, in a nutshell......'We don't like you and we want nothing more to do with you'!
You really haven't engaged much in the debate if you really think that's what it comes down it.
You create a fair society by ensuring equal opportunity for all, by investing in education and healthcare, by the creation of employment opportunities and allowing your citizens to live safely wherever they are.
All things we've been doing in Scotland while folk in Westminster seem to be doing the opposite by invading foreign countries, hiking up tuition fees and laying the groundwork to selling off the NHS.
In practical terms, by voting left at the ballot box. How many Labour party members will be lost, incidentally? As opposed to voters?
And we do vote left all we like but it'll only help if a majority of the folk in the rest of the UK do the same.
molgrips - Member
"How can we help you?"
Solidarity.
Solidarity involves you actually doing something we can participate in.
What actions have you taken for democracy this week? Point us at the democratic movement in rUK. The nearest thing I can see is UKIP
It really isn't about you. It's about us.
Independence in Scotland will have been won by active participation of the people, so it's unlikely that there will be the same political will to dance to the corporate tune. I think workers rights will be safer than in rUK.
Is it contempt or apathy that nationalist feel towards the UK workforce? It certainly is not a sense of solidarity.
It really isn't about you. It's about us.
This shows that nationalists really do feel different to everyone else in the UK despite claims to the contrary.
Standard Life relocates its head office to the UK in order to remain regulated by the UK FCA
This is an interesting point. There are companies in Scotland serving the whole UK who would quite possibly lose 90% of their business if it cannot be exported. So they would have to move.
Has this been taken into account with the economic forecasts?
apparently, you'll be getting all our high paid jobs, don't think we can do you a better solid than that! 😆molgrips - Member
How can we help you?
Solidarity
What actions have you taken for democracy this week?
Um.. what? Why do you ask?
I'm not talking about individual campaigns, I'm talking about general elections. You can join in that, if you're part of the UK.
bingo!Point us at the democratic movement in rUK. The nearest thing I can see is UK
This shows that nationalists really do feel different to everyone else in the UK despite claims to the contrary.
I don't know what the nationalists feel, I'm not a nationalist. I've said it many times, I'd much prefer proper reform of the UK - a proper federal system of government. But that is not being offered by anyone, there's zero chance of it happening, so second best choice is for part of the UK to show how it could be done.
It really isn't about you. It's about us.
Half my country is disappearing so yes it's about me.
Go on - tell me Scotland's not my country, I dare you!
But that is not being offered by anyone, there's zero chance of it happening
Again this is a ridiculous argument. When talking about the status quo in Scotland, the answer is 'oh it'll change in the future'. When talking about the status quo in Westminster, it'll never change.
What the fk? This is really stupid thinking.
I'm not talking about individual campaigns, I'm talking about general elections. You can join in that, if you're part of the UK.
We do - but as election after election shows, the way Scotland votes has little to no impact on the government the UK gets. Scotland can't help you via the ballot box, maybe we can help you in other ways.
your belief in Westminster is admirable, but unfortunately not shared.molgrips - Member
What actions have you taken for democracy this week?
Um.. what? Why do you ask?I'm not talking about individual campaigns, I'm talking about general elections. You can join in that, if you're part of the UK.
here you go again, trying to turn thisinto something it's not...molgrips - Member
It really isn't about you. It's about us.
Half my country is disappearing so yes it's about me.Go on - tell me Scotland's not my country, I dare you!
Half my country is disappearing so yes it's about me.
We're not going anywhere. The mountains will still be here. The lochs aren't going anywhere. The MTB trails will be an good as ever. All that's changing is what government we have.
here you go again, trying to turn thisinto something it's not...
Not at all. I'm trying to show you my point of view.
All that's changing is what government we have.
For you maybe. For me, what's changing is that a large number of my political allies are leaving. Can't you understand why that represents a loss to me?
athgray - Member
...Is it contempt or apathy that nationalist feel towards the UK workforce? It certainly is not a sense of solidarity.
No, it is bewilderment.
Many parts of the Uk face the same problems as us, but they have not organised and done something about it. You can't have solidarity with someone who is doing nothing.
If there is apathy, it's not on our side.
Spot on - I think the crab bucket analogy is a good one here.
I get it, but you'll always be welcome. There are no barriers going up to you.molgrips - Member
here you go again, trying to turn thisinto something it's not...
Not at all. I'm trying to show you my point of view.
You can't have solidarity with someone who is doing nothing.
Of course you can.
But in any case, to claim that there are no political activists in England and Wales is a bit.. well.. incorrect.
I get it, but you'll always be welcome. There are no barriers going up to you.
So I should move ot Scotland? That's the answer?
Scotlands not your country,if it was,you would have a say in what happens to it.There; I dared.
For you maybe. For me, what's changing is that a large number of my political allies are leaving. Can't you understand why that represents a loss to me?
I can, but we can't help you at the moment. Maybe we can instead show by example.
But in any case, to claim that there are no political activists in England and Wales is a bit.. well.. incorrect.
Aye, you're right. There's plenty of grass roots campaigning, problem is, they're all voting for UKIP 😉
molgrips - Member
Half my country is disappearing so yes it's about me.Go on - tell me Scotland's not my country, I dare you!
I will.
Scotland is not your country, just as England is not my country, Wales is not my country, and Northern Ireland is not my country.
If you want it to be your country you are welcome to come and live and vote here.
There's one thing Scotland can do to help - we can give the political establishment the biggest kick up the arse it's had in 300 years.
Once we do that, maybe the rest of the UK can seize the opportunity to change things.
Show by example?
So we should all somehow contrive to declare independence from Westminster? Lol ok.. not really an option though.
Scotlands not your country
Scotland is part of Britain, so yes it is my country. The only argument against that is a nationalistic one, which is what I was trying to say.
I can, but we can't help you at the moment.
No but you can at the next election.
epicyclo - Member
I could see the value of lowering corporate taxes to a certain extent. Many corporations based in Scotland currently are headquartered in London so pay their taxes there. A lower rate would attract them up here and the total tax take would be higher. I can see your point about a race to the bottom, but I don't think there is any intention of doing a Luxembourg here.
Why Scotland over Rep. of Ireland though?
No but you can at the next election.
How? Who can I vote for who has a realistic chance of getting into power and changing things? Labour? Yeah, right, we fell for that one before 😉
Yes, Labour. Maybe you could join the Labour party and vote for its leadership? Perhaps you could even join in the campaigning, since we're talking about actual political activisim here.
Can't do any of that if you are not in the UK.
bencooper - Member
How? Who can I vote for who has a realistic chance of getting into power and changing things? Labour?...
You forgot the moral party - the LibDems.
Oh....
Yeah, right, we fell for that one before
Yes, Labour. Maybe you could join the Labour party and vote for its leadership?
But that brings us back to the same problem that we're massively outnumbered - Labour has swung to the right because that's what wins elections, and even if a big number of Scots joined the party and moved it back to the left, it'd just start losing elections again.
A swing to the left is on the cards imo.
A swing to the left is on the cards imo.
I hope so, but the rise of UKIP doesn't look good.
The Yes campaign seems to think that if independence happens that just by lowering corporate tax then this will solve problems. If a business is based in Scotland and does the bulk of it's business in the UK, then there is a high risk that they will move to the UK after independence. Especially for the financial sector.
And why relocate to Scotland from the UK, will Scotland be competing with Ireland or Luxembourg for corporate tax levels? If this is the case then you could argue that big business has got control of the Scottish Government.
The other point that comes along is that Scotland becomes just another foreign country and is competing with other countries to supply the UK. Why should the UK buy power from Scotland if it can get it cheaper from France, why should ships be built on the Clyde when they can be built cheaper elsewhere in the world or built in the UK to create jobs.
By all means choose independence, but go in with your eyes open. While some may be fully aware of the impact, the Yes campaign seems to be a game of smoke and mirrors. Perhaps if it was honest about the risks then the mandate that it wants would be fully justified. If independence happens then I suspect many Yes voters are going to be surprised about the impact of the decision.
You do wonder though if all the passion and money spent on the vote had been focused on managing Scotland better now, inside the devolved system, what it could have achieved. One legacy of the vote will be a split country, both inside Scotland and within the UK. Perhaps when this has all settled down, we should decide was it worth it.
Maybe this referendum will make politicans realise that people can give a shit if they think there's something worth voting for. I think it would be pretty easy for a Labour leader to ride the anti-fatcat sentiment and persuade a huge number of non-voters.
Now, how to persuade them of that..?
You do wonder though if all the passion and money spent on the vote had been focused on managing Scotland better now, inside the devolved system, what it could have achieved.
Yes, and there's quite a few people saying that whichever way the vote goes the country won't be the same.
Unless I missed it, no one has commented on iScotland being unable to join the EU without a central bank?
At the end of the day, this is going to be a very, very close vote. The nature if the mandate will reflect this ie, neither side will be able to argue a convincing mandate. This is obvious since the reality is that devolved power within a bigger union is the optimum outcome. YS knows this, that is why they are clinging on to as much of the status quo as possible and the CU argument reinforces the message, albeit distorted to accommodate the vanity aspect rather than the interests of Scotland and the UK.
Before any more is spouted in the so-called privatisation is the NHS it may be worth confirming the levels of spending on private services on both sides of the border, Funny how Tories (sorry that was for yS convenience, should be coalition) and SNP patterns mirror each other yet one side is the defender while the other is the destroyer of the NHS. Strip away the rhetoric and simply more deceit.......
Futon it has come up many times and Rehn's intervention yesterday was noted - but details, details.....apparently unimportant!
Strip away the rhetoric and simply more deceit.
Yep. Because it's a nationalistic issue not an economic or pragmatic one. End of.
You're more than welcome to.molgrips - Member
So I should move ot Scotland? That's the answer?
But that brings us back to the same problem that we're massively outnumbered - Labour has swung to the right because that's what wins elections
Democracy isn't it Ben - I thought that was what you were championing. If you are massively outnumbered ie a minority why does that give you the right to impose your will on the majority?
Sturgeon's attempt to label Alexander as a Tory last night summed it up - little more than we don't like English Tories and we are prepared to sacrifice common sense and limit our futures on that basis (even though you copy many of their policies yourself). Utter bllx......
To make it clear btw, I don't share these nationalist thoughts, I am sympathetic to your point of view, but ultimately I feel it's futile.molgrips - Member
Scotland is part of Britain, so yes it is my country. The only argument against that is a nationalistic one, which is what I was trying to say.
Democracy isn't it Ben - I thought that was what you were championing. If you are massively outnumbered ie a minority why does that give you the right to impose your will on the majority?
It doesn't, which is why we should go our own way.
[i]Futon it has come up many times and Rehn's intervention yesterday was noted - but details, details.....apparently unimportant![/i]
I have a feeling (as an innocent bystander) that there is a silent majority who are intelligent enough to see through the smoke and mirrors and will vote against independence. If the no vote isn't in excess of 60% I'll be surprised.
The Yes vote is being vehemently pushed by ceryain types who have no interest in the bigger picture. last night there was a young (dim looking) chap in the audience, who spent the whole evening shaking his head at every utterence from the No campaigners. Did he have anything to say, any questions to ask? Erm...Of course not.
Now I frankly don't give a fig what they vote, but it annoys me that these people are gambling with their country's future, with no concern about the risks that won't affect them, but the generations to come.
last night there was a young (dim looking) chap in the audience
What's "dim looking"?
The Yes vote is being vehemently pushed by ceryain types who have no interest in the bigger picture.
Would you like to point out these 'certain types'? Or should I make the accusation that the no campaign is being push by certain types with no interest in society but only their personal wealth?
I am sympathetic to your point of view, but ultimately I feel it's futile.
And the only reason for making this drastic decision is that you "hope" it'll be different.
[i]What's "dim looking"?[/i]
Looks 'dim'...def: Stupid or slow to understand: