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Yeh, that video is pretty err.... unfortunate.
That's going in the league of 'special **** ups' filing location.
Piemonster - I see no issue with what I said. rUK would apparently have incredible strength compared to a newly iScotland - allegedly. From what we're being told by the No side it would appear that rUK in a great place with absolutely no risks - Utopia even.
The question I liked most from the debate last night was: If we would be better together, why are we not better together now?
Scotland is already better together. Stop running Scotland down and don't reply telling me how bad things will be if there is a no vote because that is negative tactics and the yes campaign will have to be renamed project fear.
Right pie monster let's cut the spin out and deal clearly with the real facts of one of the core issues raised in the last few pages of this thread.
What is your current position?
A Flounced
B Unflounced
C Temporarily Unflounced
D Reflounced
E Temporarily Re-Unflounced
🙂
I've consulted the PFC (Piemonster Flouncing Commission) and they have concluded that the best option is a Flouncey Union. This is the best Flounce for all parties concerned. Even if its not.
This Flouncey Union is my preffered flounce. Although if necessary I shall use your flounce whether you like if or not.
Scotland is already better together. Stop running Scotland down and don't reply telling me how bad things will be if there is a no vote because that is negative tactics and the yes campaign will have to be renamed project fear.
you mean "project feart" 😉
Two more reason to vote Yes. These two could be the future PM and Deputy PM in Westminster.
Oh ****ing jesus wept
Pm may I make you aware that some members want to flounce from the flouncey union. They may also flounce from the EFU (European Flouncey Union). It is apparently very difficult to unflounce from the EFU. Members of the EFU who wish to flounce are encouraged to disable the Flounce option (FOff) but if they persist are said to have FdOFF.Members/ aspiring members who have attained FdOFFstatus have been known to wait for years before being able to achieve unflounced status known as UFOFF.
😀
AS wants a CU because he knows that any currency union requires coordinated monetary AND fiscal policy to work. The elephant gets bigger and bigger.
"Please vote yes, so that we can give up independence to a foreign country." No wonder he doesn't know what side of the balance sheet you find things on. He doesn't understand any of this.
Silly for yS posters to show how ignorant J Lamont is - that is merely and indication of how poor the quality of the political representation is. And you want more power for these people? Bizarre?
AS wants a CU because he knows that any currency union requires coordinated monetary AND fiscal policy to work.
additionally Salmond knows they are going to have the £ for years as the costs of changing rUK systems to cope with a second currency during the transition whilst iS set up their new civil service, IR, benefits payments, DVLA etc all systems that iS will require after independence but will not have in place for years will be significant and dead money
CU makes this more palatable for Salmond as he can blame rUK for interest rates etc, if they have to "sterlingise" for a period its harder to blame rUK for the same
Konabunny the way I'd interpreted them (EDP) was that they were attracting people for whom the BNP and UKIP were too extreme.
it seems weird that you think that all English people hate Scots and then go on to endorse the one group of English that do actually hate Scots.
Anyone think Salmond can realistically secure CU?
then go on to endorse the one group of English that do actually hate Scots.
😀
And they hate Scots with a passion.
This is a more respectable "media friendly" dig at the Scots from the English Nats :
[url= http://www.englishdemocrats.org.uk/latest-news/item/289-scotland-is-a-burden-to-england.html ]Scotland is a Burden to England[/url]
If you have the misfortune of being verbally engaged by them on a one to one, English to English like, and I have, then their bigoted rantings against the Scots is impressive.
That would be quite a collective of liars!! On one side, a guy proposing independence would be delivering economic dependency on a foreign country and all leaders of major parties in rUK and Nick Clegg ( 😉 ) would be breaking their word and doing something stupid. No one goes into a union with a temporary partner....
Thm we want Scotland to be governed by those the people of Scotland voted for.
True, pity that is not what you are proposing or going to get. You are voting for a systems where you will end up with even less independence than you have now. That is folly in the extreme. Plan B is even worse!
But don't say that you were not warned - oh and read today's FT editorial if you continue not to take my word for it.
gordimhor - MemberThm we want Scotland to be governed by those the people of Scotland voted for [b]and their SPADS[/b].
FIFY 😉
Well advising the Greek government is a great CV!
First, interview question: would you like to tell us how your last advisory assignment went? Did the economy prosper? Was inequality solved - and wiping nearly everyone out doesn't count!
Sounds great, now tell us how we should structure our economic framework.....
True, pity that is not what you are proposing or going to get. You are voting for a systems where you will end up with even less independence than you have now. That is folly in the extreme.
And THM hits the nail on the head.
Why thank you Ernie.
Tried to explain this several times, may be the truth will sink in before the 18th.
BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU VOTE FOR!!!! You have been warned.....
Not true Thm we are voting for a system where the Scottish government is elected by the people of Scotland.
Fine, but they will not have control over the main instruments of policy. So apart from giving the DO a bigger throne and polishing his ego, what will you have gained. Little if anything? You will have lost lots of advantages for marginal gains. Folly in the extreme.
But then again some people actually voted for the Euro.
Not true Thm we are voting for a system where the Scottish government is elected by the people of Scotland.
But a Scottish government which will be desperately trying to return power over the economy to Westminster.
You really still haven't got the point Thm we are not voting for a DO whatever that is. We are voting for a system where the people of Scotland choose their own government.
Hey, George Pal, what interest rates are you gonna set for us? And can we spend some more money up here please?
Hey, george Pal, can you nae hear me?
Hey,....
Cross post Gordi, don't worry I have got it. It just takes a little thinking about. A lot of point in a government that abdicates responsibility for policy decisions to a foreign country. TBC, that was sarcasm!
gordimhor - MemberYou really still haven't got the point Them we are not voting for a DO whatever that is. We are voting for a system where the people of Scotland choose their own government.
some Scottish bloke on telly last night was going on how a "yes" vote gave "him" a mandate for his BoD, including CU
If Scotland goes independent we could be invaded by the Russians:
http://www.businessinsider.com/scottish-independence-and-russian-submarine-invasion-2014-8
😀
What's a BoD? Hasn't he retired now. Still voting for a system where the government of Scotland is chosen by the people of Scotland.
sorry Ben
they must be mapping you for a reason 😉
they are genuine military mapping, the mapping is focused on key points, access for armour (road thickness shows weight bearing and soft/ wet ground is marked
arguably significantly better for military planning than our OS series for identifying no-go, slow-go, and go terrain
Oh well,based on what Ben and BnD have posted probably best we all vote no then.Especially as the link CA posted a million years ago to the analysis paper on defence showed how well we are protected just now...By an elite flotilla of mackerel fishing boats with wifi and twitter.
ernie_lynch - Member
The legal right of people to decide their own destiny is a core principle of international law and is enshrined in the UN Charter.Westminster politicians have a legal obligation to recognise that right.
So try not to feel too bitter towards Westminster politicians if the vote doesn't go the way you would prefer.
It's not their fault that you were born 100 years too late.
Scotland, England, Wales, N.Ireland are countries, but it is the United Kingdom that is a member of the United Nations. Where then is my legal right to vote, on what could be the destruction of my country, under international law?
Westminster politicians have given the right to a small minority to decide on the future of my country. My rights have been ignored.
big_n_daft - Member
...they must be mapping you for a reason...
For the same reasons the USA has mapped the world. If you can manage to make the Russians and Americans invade simultaneously, we can sell them deep fried Mars bars. Bargain, 1 groat each.
Aye, we're doomed. What do we we know about running our own country? Too dumb to have our own navy, army or airforce like any other independent country, och aye, and all those enemies poised to invade us tomorrow and all.
Maybe we need a big powerful friend? Mmmm how about the rUK? Nah, they're nae good, their high heid yins canna even afford to put planes on their aircraft carriers, gone an sacked half their army, bit of a joke really.
Nah, mibbe we're better doing it oorsells, cannae be worse.
kjcc25 - Member
...Scotland, England, Wales, N.Ireland are countries, but it is the United Kingdom that is a member of the United Nations. Where then is my legal right to vote, on what could be the destruction of my country, under international law?
The UK is a collection of countries in a Union.
You can organise an independence movement in your own country if you like. Scotland isn't your country.
21 days to go.
So - does anyone think Salmond can negotiate a CU? Yes, or No.
So - does anyone think Salmond can negotiate a CU? Yes, or No.
[img]
[/img]"Salmond hits his first hurdle at the independence negotiations"
epicyclo - Member
kjcc25 - Member
...Scotland, England, Wales, N.Ireland are countries, but it is the United Kingdom that is a member of the United Nations. Where then is my legal right to vote, on what could be the destruction of my country, under international law?
The UK is a collection of countries in a Union.You can organise an independence movement in your own country if you like. Scotland isn't your country.
21 days to go.
So because I don't want independence you decide Scotland isn't my country.
Will an independent Scotland allow an independence vote to the people of Shetland and Orkney?
Oh and if they vote to be independent from Scotland will they be able to take their oil with them?
Shetland has not always been part of Scotland.
So - does anyone think Salmond can negotiate a CU? Yes, or No.
In the event of a Yes vote, whatever is negotiated will probably be called something completely new, resulting in saving face for both sides.
kjcc25 - Member
...So because I don't want independence you decide Scotland isn't my country.
The decision was in your hands. Do you live here?
saving face for both sides
What 'face' will the UK need to save? After all it will be an independent Scotland that wants a CU. The UK will handover assets to Scotland, and the debts, but Scotland will not get a CU. The Yes voters need to realise this, this is not a threat, just a statement. The UK does not want to be responsible for any countries finance system or be responsible for setting their tax policy. Those two are part of a CU.
If Scotland chooses to go, it is not for Scotland to tell the UK what is best for the UK. That is for the UK to choose - and that will include no CU, or variations of a CU. If Salmond wants to throw his toys out of the pram and refuse to accept Scotlands share of the national debt, then fine. The UK will accept that. As such Scotland will have no debt (at least for the first day) but it will have less assets.
Will an independent Scotland allow an independence vote to the people of Shetland and Orkney?
If they want to organise a referendum campaign and hold one I don't see why not.
Oh and if they vote to be independent from Scotland will they be able to take their oil with them?
Probably not - under international maritime law they'd be enclaves, and only entitled to the standard 12-mile limit from their shores. Of course since there are significant oil facilities they could levy taxes that way, but they wouldn't have a right to the oil itself.
KJcc25 Rights cannot be given or taken away a person has rights by being born.A person can be prevented from exercising their rights. Your rights have not been affected in any way nor since you correctly say
are you being prevented from exercising your right to vote.Scotland, England, Wales, N.Ireland are countries
There are two problems with that enclave theory though (which seems to have popped up recently in the nationalist dialogue)
i) That jurisprudence on the issue points away from the '12 mile' boundary towards a negotiated solution taking into account a fair share of resources (oops, we've heard that before haven't we 😆 )
ii) That the Shetlands were given full effect in the drawing of the existing maritime boundaries, (ie, the boundary was drawn halfway between the Shetlands and Norway, not halfway between the Scottish Mainland and Norway) if Scotland lost the Shetlands&/or Orkneys then the maritime borders between Scotland and Norway would have to be redrawn - and Scotland would lose most of its oil 😆
and Scotland would lose most of its oil
Haven't we established though that there's precious little oil left, that it's all running out, and it's not enough to run even a small country like Scotland?
Probably more oil in the olive groves of a small greek town than there is the North Sea, so it's all academic, right?
EDIT: is there an irony emoticon?
Funny how the only people seemingly wanting independence for Shetland are people who either can't vote or want to stay with the UK? Funny that.
[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/scottish-independence-do-you-realise-just-how-foolish-the-uk-looks-9692423.html ]Article in the Independent sums it up[/url]
ninfan - Member
There are two problems with that enclave theory though (which seems to have popped up recently in the nationalist dialogue)i) That jurisprudence on the issue points away from the '12 mile' boundary towards a negotiated solution taking into account a fair share of resources (oops, we've heard that before haven't we )
ii) That the Shetlands were given full effect in the drawing of the existing maritime boundaries, (ie, the boundary was drawn halfway between the Shetlands and Norway, not halfway between the Scottish Mainland and Norway) if Scotland lost the Shetlands&/or Orkneys then the maritime borders between Scotland and Norway would have to be redrawn - and Scotland would lose most of its oil
iii) I doubt very much Scotland would be daft enough to allow Shetland & Orkney to have a legally binding referedum.
But bencooper said the closer decisions were to the people, the fairer they are. So Shetland under iScotland is fairer than Shetland under the UK, but Shetland under Shetland would be even fairer.
The UK is a collection of countries in a Union.
Northern Ireland is not a country. E, S and W are countries only in a very nominal way, and none of them is a state. The UK is the only state and real country.
It's got nothing to with fairness. See the Basque country, see Catalonia, see the Venetian referendum.konabunny - Member
But bencooper said the closer decisions were to the people, the fairer they are. So Shetland under iScotland is fairer than Shetland under the UK, but Shetland under Shetland would be even fairer.
It does have everything to do with if a region can put enough pressure on their country to allow a legally binding referendum. Or have enough about them to go to war over it.
Come on, what do the fervent YESSERS think? Will Salmond be able to negotiate a CU?
Personally i hope not. Sterlingisation in the short term, then allowing the people to decide where we go from there in elections, works for me.futon river crossing - Member
Come on, what do the fervent YESSERS think? Will Salmond be able to negotiate a CU?
Come on, what do the fervent YESSERS think? Will Salmond be able to negotiate a CU?
Could go either way tbh. I wouldn't be surprised with either outcome.
futon river crossing - Member
Come on, what do the fervent YESSERS think? Will Salmond be able to negotiate a CU?
I don't care.
We will still have money, and probably continue to use the £, but with the benefit that there will be more fiscal responsibility (as the Panamanians, IoM, etc have shown).
If we go into the EU then we can use the Euro. It's just money, which brand is not a problem.
I reckon the Oz dollar would be good, but I'm not prejudiced or anything... 🙂
edit: can't be bothered
[b]epicyclo[/b] - Member
Article in the Independent sums it up
The Yes campaign in Scotland wants to be Scotlands "political elite "
EDIT: @epic everything I see and read (not least this currency doscussion and the fact Scotland does not propose to have a central bank of any kind) leads me to believe Scotland will be materially less fiscally responsible and will run a very large budget deficit
konabunny - Member
But bencooper said the closer decisions were to the people, the fairer they are. So Shetland under iScotland is fairer than Shetland under the UK, but Shetland under Shetland would be even fairer.
That's a good point.
After independence, there will be more power devolved to the islands of Scotland so that they derive more benefit from the resources in their area.
If Edinburgh becomes a black hole like London, and ignores the needs or desires of the islands, then the island communities should seek independence.
Scotland's finance minister says no "currency, no debt" (apologies of this has been posted before).
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28943041 ]BBC - Swinney[/url]
I say no debt, no independence.
Salmond might, but that is part of the gamble..might, should, could rather than anything definite!
If left to any of his minions then it will become a disaster in the same way as a lot of other links currently being worked between Scot/Eng that the person on the street has no knowledge of!!
The new Forth bridge is supposedly ontime & on budget unlike Holyrood and the trams. Police Scotland is a mess as is the new education policy, all will be sorted eventually but a lot more could and should have been done. There are a whole raft of day to day issues being ignored and masked by the oil and currency issues.
Regardless of which government we have in place it is down to the civil service to work out the detail. They are only going to get one go at sorting out the parting of the ways...... 🙄
jambalaya - Member
The Yes campaign in Scotland wants to be Scotlands "political elite "
Well, seeing as the Yes campaign consists of around 50% of Scots, that's a lot more equitable than the current situation.
These "fairer" discussions are quite amusing, Scotland will be fairer because all the rich people will live/be tax domiciled elsewhere (Sean Connery, Andy Murray, Stagecoach founders etc)
Trekster - Member
...They are only going to get one go at sorting out the parting of the ways......
True, I'm sure some whopping mistakes will be made by both sides.
But we have the next few hundred years to sort it out.
jambalaya - Member
These "fairer" discussions are quite amusing, Scotland will be fairer because all the rich people will live/be tax domiciled elsewhere (Sean Connery, Andy Murray, Stagecoach founders etc)
Ridiculous, isn't it? So tell us why some rich Scots are not living in the Uk? Who decided that tax policy?
Will we follow the same tax policies as the UK?
True, I'm sure some whopping mistakes will be made by both sides.But we have the next few hundred years to sort it out.
don't remember seeing that on a Yes poster 😉
big_n_daft - Member
don't remember seeing that on a Yes poster
No, it's all got to look like roses, but we know there's a few thistles in there.
We also know you can get rid of thistles and plant roses if it's your own land. Just takes time. 🙂
tbh I agree. independence is only a starting point. If it turns our the same as we have, It'll be a waste of time.jambalaya - Member
These "fairer" discussions are quite amusing,
Independence is only the beginning of a fight.
Will we follow the same tax policies as the UK?
Yes, that's how currency unions work. I appreciate that this might be a shock to some. Worse than that, the rUK will determine your tax policy. Some jndependence, hey?
Confirmed: iScotland will default on its debt: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28943041
Great start!
It's not our debt, the Treasury says so.
Sheesh - look, these are all negotiating positions. No currency union, not taking the debt, they're all posturing before the referendum. After the referendum it'll be discussed sensibly by grown-ups.
Is your head not in a spin yet? You've gone in circles that many times you should be dizzy.teamhurtmore - Member
Will we follow the same tax policies as the UK?
Yes, that's how currency unions work. I appreciate that this might be a shock to some. Worse than that, the rUK will determine your tax policy. Some jndependence, hey?
seosamh77 - Member
tbh I agree. independence is only a starting point. If it turns our the same as we have, It'll be a waste of time.
Independence is only the beginning of a fight.
I agree.
Some political parties will be turned on their heads after independence.
I think the LibDems are toast. A double betrayal - being gutless in the coalition and anti independence will cost them.
There's a lot of fury amongst Labour party members about what is seen as a betrayal of the party - in bed with the Tories has never had much appeal.
In the short term the SNP will gain from this, but once the other parties sort themselves out, I believe the SNP will wither on the vine unless they fill the LibDem void.
Strangely the party which will come out the least affected will be the Conservative party. Their voters will have a party that has stuck to its guns and principles, and will probably attract the more right wing SNP supporters, so it may actually grow.
Of course, that is just my opinion. and I could be way out.
Scotland wouldn't be defaulting, rUK would still be servicing the debt. Under those circumstances there is no default as far as the markets are concerned.futon river crossing - Member
Confirmed: iScotland will default on its debt: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28943041Great start!
To say there would be is just utter bull.
If there's a default it'll be rUK that will be defaulting.
If it's not your debt, how can it a negotiating position? "Listen here, we're not going to pay the debt, that isn't ours anyway, take that"!!!
Fair assessment. Particularly the scots tories, I agree that, they are a worry.epicyclo - Member
seosamh77 - Member
tbh I agree. independence is only a starting point. If it turns our the same as we have, It'll be a waste of time.
Independence is only the beginning of a fight.
I agree.Some political parties will be turned on their heads after independence.
I think the LibDems are toast. A double betrayal - being gutless in the coalition and anti independence will cost them.
There's a lot of fury amongst Labour party members about what is seen as a betrayal of the party - in bed with the Tories has never had much appeal.
In the short term the SNP will gain from this, but once the other parties sort themselves out, I believe the SNP will wither on the vine unless they fill the LibDem void.
Strangely the party which will come out the least affected will be the Conservative party. Their voters will have a party that has stuck to its guns and principles, and will probably attract the more right wing SNP supporters, so it may actually grow.
Of course, that is just my opinion. and I could be way out.
We are willing to take a share.futon river crossing - Member
If it's not your debt, how can it a negotiating position? "Listen here, we're not going to pay the debt, that isn't ours anyway, take that"!!!
To be honest I don't think the no debt thing is a negotiating position on a CU at all, it's just a general overall negotiating position that will be used to gain a share of the assets.
I think the CU position is just public facing politics.
teamhurtmore - Member
'Will we follow the same tax policies as the UK?'
Yes, that's how currency unions work. I appreciate that this might be a shock to some. Worse than that, the rUK will determine your tax policy. Some jndependence, hey?
So all the countries in the EU have the same tax regime do they?
After the referendum it'll be discussed sensibly by grown-ups
Firstly I wouldn't assume that the grown ups will have a sensible conversation. Any discussions will make the recent head-2-head discussions look like a quiet chat in the park. Secondly any agreement would need to be ratified by the UK Parliament - and I can already hear the braying from the back benches. I won't comment on the Scottish Parliament - but I will take a wild guess that it won't be much better!
Scottish Labour had to come out as No, firstly because that's whats best for the whole of the UK (and Scotland IMO), secondly because a Yes vote does weaken Labour nationally. Scots voters must understand this so to "finish" the party there for that is a bit short sighted.
I posted before I could see Scotland moving to the right post independence, in the past anti Tory (right) was anti-English/Westminster / pro-independence. If Scotland becomes independent people will be able to vote freely left/centre/right without the anti-English/Westminster factor influencing their vote. The results could surprise many.
The Scottish man in the street view:
As far as the CU is concerned, the Bank of England is the UK govt bank paid for by the citizens of all the countries of the UK.
Scotland is entitled to its share of the bank its taxes have paid for. The BoE issues the currency, ie the £. If we are not getting a share of the joint account, then why should we pay its debts?
Whether that is technically correct, I have no idea, but it is a common perception.
Anyhow, the sun is shining, off for a ride... 🙂
It is a danger. Yes.jambalaya - Member
The results could surprise many.