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The central arguments Ben that have dominated the debate - currency and debt - have both been presented in a deceitful manner with one purpose - to mislead voters. No surprise that the DO has gone back to base in both. Much better to hide behind his own 3Bs than treat the voters with the respect that they deserve. He must feel very proud that his legacy will be based on such foundations. Utterly fitting and predictable.
The latest trials and tribulations of the left wing government of M Hollande completely falsify the idea a yes vote will create a shift away from centre right policies.
Well that's a bit of a leap. What's the connection, completely?
the No Borders campaign which is backed by a tax-avoiding oil baron who bribes dictators
Who is that?
Phew, I thought we were talking about Donald Trump again then...
The rest will follow. If UK politics offered a positive alternative to the current right-moving trend then Scottish Independence would be dead in the water...I hope the English Democrats can capitalize on the disillusionment in England and shake things up a bit.POSTED 2 HOURS AGO # REPORT-POST
WTF? You're endorsing the English Democrats as an alternative to the rightist trend in UK politics? are you nuts? They're the lunatic fringe of UKIP and the BNP!
Yup, there's the Britannica Party, the Scottish Jacobite Party, the No Borders campaign which is backed by a tax-avoiding oil baron who bribes dictators, loads of lovely people.
Your contempt for bribery is in tension with your enthusiasm for the Norwegian state's energy section and its bribery of officials of the fascist Iranian regime.
I can understand why people committed to the UK are worried about the ideas of failing economies
No Yesser has proposed that Scotland adopt any significant political or economic reform that would be a departure from mainstream capitalism - and in fact the lead political figure in iScotland would be a former banker. Here comes the new boss...
Your contempt for bribery is in tension with your enthusiasm for the Norwegian state's energy section and its bribery of officials of the fascist Iranian regime.
When did I express enthusiasm for bribing Iranian officials?
from the little I saw, Salmond is taking a Yes vote as a mandate for the BoD from the Scottish people and hence a mandate for CU
but we are constantly told the vote is not about the SNP who wrote the BoD, it supposed to be bigger than that
the reality is that iS need the £ as unravelling all the government services will have to be done quicker and at higher cost for iS if they don't use it. The transistion costs have been grossly underestimated
but it doesn't matter, the rUK electorate will not be interested in the iS "mandate" for CU, when they see the reality for rUK with the issues of divergent economies, divergent spending, unbalanced financial risk benefits, and the instability of iS leaving whenever they feel. No-one is going to vote for that (and the associated costs) when rUK voters give their mandate in 2015
it also doesn't matter if the argument is more than just about money (including oil money) and where it is spent. But what is clear is that the money does matter to a good % of the voters which the Yes campaign need to convince hence the gleam in AS's eyes everytime he gets to mention the oil money
ernie_lynch - Member
I literally LOL at the suggestion that the UK is not a democracy but in fact an oligarchy. There's something wonderfully entertaining about people who make hysterical commentsepicyclo - Member
It's ok, I expect that sort of response from folk possessing the delusional belief that an appointed upper house with life members is democratic.
So the UK is not a democracy but an oligarchy because of the House of Lords ? 😆
Does the EU know that the UK is an oligarchy ? Because the EU requires members states to have [i]"stable institutions guaranteeing democracy"[/i] ...... I suggest you give them a bell 😆
And you talk about "delusional belief" 😆
Stop it now, my sides are starting to hurt 😆
EDIT : I fully accept the claim that the House of Lords is inherently undemocratic (which would be a serious problem if it actually had any executive powers). I completely the reject the claim that it therefore defines the UK as an "oligarchy".
Your contempt for bribery is in tension with your enthusiasm for the Norwegian state's energy section and its bribery of officials of the fascist Iranian regime.
When did I express enthusiasm for bribing Iranian officials?
You're absolutely right and I do apologise. I should have said "your contempt for bribery is in tension with your enthusiasm for the Norwegian state's energy section which bribed officials of the fascist Iranian regime".
I like the idea of an oil fund*, that doesn't mean I think we should copy everything the Norwegians do. I tried Lutefisk once, never again.
*but see previous comments re. I'd prefer it stayed where it is, etc etc.
Well, it was nice to see Better Together finally change their mind and say that "Of course we could use the pound." Now maybe they'll stop telling us we'll have to use chewing gum and kit-kat wrappers. Or the Euro.
[img] http://wingsoverscotland.com/more-ordinary-voters/ [/img]
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What has Darling got against Panama, anyway? At least twice I heard him call it a horrible place. Guess he didn't get his invitation to the Panamanian embassy christmas party last year or something.
Konabunny the way I'd interpreted them (EDP) was that they were attracting people for whom the BNP and UKIP were too extreme.
Regardless, it's not necessarily that I'm advocating them, more like I perceived them to be putting a voice to what a lot of people in England feel but not as abhorrent as the far right parties which is what England needs.
We in Scotland have SNP, the Welsh had Plaid Cymru, in Northern Ireland there is Sinn Fein or the Democrats. I'm not saying that any minority party is necessarily better than the mainstream but look at how the SNP and Plaid Cymru have developed in recent years from their beginnings as what many perceived to be a 'lunatic fringe' into something that a lot of people feel they can support.
Probably not putting over very well what I am trying to say
Well, it was nice to see Better Together finally change their mind and say that "Of course we could use the pound."
It's surprising just how daft some people can be. If you listened carefully to what Darling said you would have noted that he pointed out that Scotland could use [i]any[/i] currency it wanted, including, he quite rightly said, the rupee.
That has never been in any doubt at any time.
And yet the this is now being offered by the nats as some sort of great victory and major capitulation. Are people really that dumb ?
What has been in doubt is currency union. Apparently the nats believe that you can have currency union with only one party agreeing.
You are of course correct Ernie. Just like when Johann Lamont made her famous remark about Scots not being genetically programmed to make decisions. As much as I think she is as much use as a chocolate fireguard, it was clear what she was trying to say, she just got mixed up in the heat of a shouting match with Nicola Sturgeon.
However, in the interests of balance, I must correct you on what you say about the SNP saying that only one party needs to be in agreement to have a currency union. As you know, they have not said this either, just as much as Mr Darling's comment was framed entirely differently to how it is being interpreted.
Konabunny the way I'd interpreted them (EDP) was that they were attracting people for whom the BNP and UKIP were too extreme.
In my personal experience the English Democrats hate the Scots, which in that respect makes them even more bigoted than the BNP.
Just having a thought here with Salmonds "If its your pound then its your debt" line, does that mean we'll get to take back all of the things that its paid for like your schools, universities, Health service, council services road infrastructure (if we paid for it maybe we should put tolls on every bit of scottish road we built)
The guys a snake that deals in half truths, the way its going I'd love to see Scotlad go it alone just for the Ha we told you so....... a few years down the line
Don't you all hate the Scots? 😉
Just like when Johann Lamont made her famous remark about Scots not being genetically programmed to make decisions.
Darling last night saying that Scotland can use any currency it wants including the rupee is "just like" when Johann Lamont made her famous remark about Scots not being genetically programmed to make decisions ?
That's impressive. Have you got anymore stuff like that ?
Your all delusional, it just freedom for Yorkshire we need and we need it now! We'll be having our own oil fund, it be needed as by act of Yorkist Parliament all chips must fried in beef dripping, none of your namby pamby veg oil.
ust having a thought here with Salmonds "If its your pound then its your debt" line, does that mean we'll get to take back all of the things that its paid for like your schools, universities, Health service, council services road infrastructure (if we paid for it maybe we should put tolls on every bit of scottish road we built)
Where 'we' includes Scottish tax payers?
Don't you all hate the Scots?
Petty nationalism is a minority opinion.
Hustler, the guy's a politician - if you don't like his dishonesty you must have been apoplectic when Alistair Darling tried to deny the NHS was being privatised in England 😉
Anyway, if it does go tits up then it's up to us - no more blaming Westminster. I'd be devastated if it did but I am confident it won't.
No Ernie, I was agreeing with you. Johann Lamont was trying to say just because we are Scots doesn't make us genetically programmed to make better decisions. It came out a bit wrong but anyone watching the debate must have clearly known what she was trying to say.
It's surprising just how daft some people can be. If you listened carefully to what Darling said you would have noted that he pointed out that Scotland could use any currency it wanted, including, he quite rightly said, the rupee.That has never been in any doubt at any time.
The picture above is just one of many that say we can't use the pound. Not that we can't have a currency union, that we can't use the pound. It has been the bedrock of Better Together's campaign since they gave up on EU membership that Scotland will not be allowed to use the pound.
Now, I guess you could argue that they were working on the assumption that everyone knew that we could still use the pound and therefore all their comments and advertising refered to a currency union. However, I think that the intention was to scare people into thinking we would have to use the Euro or create our own currenncy and that those were our only two options.
Therefore, to finally have Better Together admit that Yes was right all along and we can contimue to use the pound is a bit of a big deal.
Just to add, Johann Lamont on the currency iScotland will use:
"No one knows but it won't be the pound - all the parties in the rest of the UK have ruled out an independent Scotland keeping the pound. It would have to be the Euro or a seperate Scottish currency."
och come on ernie! Even by your selective quoting standards that's a bit naff - quoting me entirely but omitting the wink which shows my comment was made in jest
Another article that explains some of the reasons I have decided to vote yes...I am fully aware my argument is not as pedantic insistent fully rounded as others on here, I am going on the opportunity a yes would offer. The last quote in this article sums it up.
http://cameronmcneish.wordpress.com/2014/08/24/why-im-voting-yes/
That has never been in any doubt at any time.
It's never been in any doubt on the Yes side - the No side seemed to have a lot of doubt, including in leaflets dropping through letterboxes at the moment:
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Must be rather vexing when the leader of your campaign rubbishes a central claim of the leaflets you've just printed 😀
It's never been in any doubt on the Yes side - the No side seemed to have a lot of doubt, including in leaflets dropping through letterboxes at the moment
Saying no one knows but it won't be the pound is like saying no one knows but it won't be the rupee.
Saying it won't be the rupee isn't the same as saying it can't be the rupee.
I would go for the dollar personally. It doesn't really matter what the yanks think.
Ah, so when Johann Lamont - Alastair Darling's nominal boss - says that it won't be the pound, she doesn't mean it can't be the pound, she just means it won't be the pound because, well, she said so.
Hmm 😀
The Better Together facebook page has a lovely cover photo at the moment, managing to play the man and be incredibly petty at the same time.
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Labour were going around with giant cardboard versions of that - amazingly childish.
When it comes to thoughtful considered debate, East Renfrewshire Council have got it spot on
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bencooper - MemberTo be fair, a prospectus promise to tell Scotland to get **** could be a sizeable vote winner
I'd hope the people of the rUK aren't that vindictive or self-destructive.
They are, if Scotland votes "Yes" then it's going to be a bitter divorce rather than an amicable separation.
Any MP in rUK which obstructs or batters the Scots will win votes, which as its an election year they will be lining up to do to improve their chances of keeping their jobs.
I feel sorry for any Scots MP who are stuck negoiating with rUK as there is going to be very little wriggle room and tbh they are going to get ****ed.
I feel sorry for any Scots MP who are stuck negoiating with rUK as there is going to be very little wriggle room, and tbh they are going to get ****.
At the end of the day if they can't reach a sensible agreement that works for both countries then it'll be like a divorce and end up in the hands of the lawyers and the courts. In that case the MP won't have much of a chance to be vindictive because they won't be involved.
In that case the MP won't have much of a chance to be vindictive because they won't be involved.
Really.... you believe that?
Really.... you believe that?
If it gets to the point where the negotiating committees can't agree then yes. It'll end up in a court and a judge (or judges? I'm not sure with international law) will decide. No MP's involved. There are rules and laws for how things like assets etc should be split up set out in international law to be used when the countries involved can't agree them selves. Don't see why this would be any different.
When it comes to thoughtful considered debate, East Renfrewshire Council have got it spot on
Yup, that was funny - I think someone forgot which Twitter account they were signed in to 😉
If Scotland vote for Independence and Alex tries to keep to his timetable then the Scots are stuffed. Since the UK just has to play hardball and delay the talks. So we go to court - which one? The EUCR - not relevant and in any case Scotland cannot join until it is independent. The EU - see ECHR. The UN - see ECHR. So which court.
In any case the UK can choose to ignore the ruling.
If the SNP think that by publishing the BoD they are strengthening their case I think that they are misguided. They will get some of what they want, but not all. After all if I know what you want and are constrained by a timetable then I have a stronger case. Add to the fact that Scotland will have many, many talks running in parallel - does the Scottish Government have enough people to do them all?
However all of this relies on getting a Yes vote - which at the moment is looking unlikely
If it gets to the point where the negotiating committees can't agree then yes. It'll end up in a court and a judge (or judges? I'm not sure with international law) will decide. No MP's involved. There are rules and laws for how things like assets etc should be split up set out in international law to be used when the countries involved can't agree them selves. Don't see why this would be any different.
Thing is don't you want this all resolved and be in the EU within 18 months or else you will have a nightmare with trading in Europe and immigration as a huge amount of Scots could suddenly need work permits (or has that answer been resolved?). Also if you think Scotland will get any kind of decent result in courts you must be smoking crack.
rUK will screw iS; as rUK public opinion will be hugely anti Scotland as you will have condemned the rest of the rUK to a conservative goverment for a very long time and people will be extremely bitter about that.
sadmadalan - Member
...However all of this relies on getting a Yes vote - which at the moment is looking unlikely
Dream on.
The only way the No campaign is going to win is by cheating on the postal vote.
The only way the No campaign is going to win is by cheating on the postal vote.
Blimely that's getting the excuses in early; have you alerted the UN to your concerns about ballot rigging 🙂
If you are so certain how much cash have you put on this sure thing? As it was 11/2 not long ago at William Hill.
rUK will screw iS; as rUK public opinion will be hugely anti Scotland as you will have condemned the rest of the rUK to a conservative goverment for a very long time and people will be extremely bitter about that.
Well a 3rd of the country would be happy with that 😉
Now I might be wrong, but wouldn't the UK want Scotland as a strong neighbour and trading partner? What would the UK gain by trying to cripple iScotland with a bad settlement, other than political brownie points with a bunch of (apparently) xenophobic idiots?
What would the UK gain by trying to cripple iScotland with a bad settlement, other than political brownie points with a bunch of (apparently) xenophobic idiots?
As I said this will be a bitter divorce; so if a rUK MP can do something to hurt iS it will make them popular. You are aware of how divorces work when one side wants to make the other side's life difficult?
Also don't forget politics is essentially a popularity contest, and MPs will do anything to boost their popularity before a general election.
There has already been talk of rUK along with Spain and Belgium blocking iS membership of the EU with their veto's and that would be just the start of a campaign to make iS a miserable place to be, all backed by the jilted rUK citzens.
I don't see the negotiations ending up in court, any court.
AS's timetable is extremely optimistic. Reality probably closer to 2018 than 2016. Ditto negotiations with the EU. As we've all said before if there is a Yes vote it's quite easy to see a UK backlash in a "sod off then" sort of way. If Scotland really does try or even persist with threats to walk away from their share of the public debt that backlash could get very ugly. Like @richc says I think the UK election will be fought with manifestos talking tough about any Scottish independence negotiations (assuming its a Yes vote)
Polls will be interesting over next week.
richc - Member
...There has already been talk of rUK along with Spain and Belgium blocking iS membership of the EU with their veto's.
Is that before or after rUK leaves the EU?
There has already been talk of rUK along with Spain and Belgium blocking iS membership of the EU with their veto's.
Not from any credible sources.
As I said this will be a bitter divorce; so if a rUK MP can do something to hurt iS it will make them popular. You are aware of how divorces work when one side wants to make the other side's life difficult?
True, but if that desire for some weird form of retribution comes at the cost of economic performance then it's not going to fly.
I'd like to think that all the chat about people in England wanting Scotland punished is just paper talk, if not then they're no better than the minority of Scots who'll vote yes to "get one over on the English"
I'd assume as well that given Scots will still be allowed to vote in the next general election the Labour party in particular won't be able to have a manifesto which describes punishing Scotland.
@richc Spain will certainly make Scotland's life difficult wrt joining the EU, they don't want to give the Basques or Catalans the faintest whiff of independence. That will of course give AS the excuse he needs for some more 5 star hotel stays, this time in Spain.
@whatnobeer the Spanish head of the EU was pretty negative about Scotland joining and certainly made it clear it would not be automatic. I think the economic impact on the UK of being firm in it's negotiations with Scotland is pretty limited, for the average Brit in the street they won't care too greatly IMO.
If I were to come on here as a Yes voter and announce that after the referendum we would be making things difficult for No voters to punish and hurt them to make us more popular, I wonder how that would go down? Some sad bitter folk on here who would foam at the mouth at such a stance yet be only too happy to see rUK do the same to an iS. Sad little people.
@whatnobeer the Spanish head of the EU was pretty negative about Scotland joining and certainly made it clear it would not be automatic.
He was, but his opinions were discredited as not being official advice. He also didn't mention a veto. IIRC there were reports of the Spanish PM (maybe someone else) saying he had no problem with an indy Scotland.
If I were to come on here as a Yes voter and announce that after the referendum we would be making things difficult for No voters to punish and hurt them to make us more popular, I wonder how that would go down? Some sad bitter folk on here who would foam at the mouth at such a stance yet be only too happy to see rUK do the same to an iS. Sad little people.
I am not saying its the right or proper thing to do. I'm just stating what appears to be public opinion. "Yes" voters can ignore this, however they shouldn't be surprised if things don't go iS's way later down the road even if you have a mandate.
As I said you need to think of this a divorce, where one party is not happy about it and whilst they can't stop the divorce they don't have to shut up and put up and when it comes to the terms of the divorce the rUK is going to be *very* hostile towards iS.
Anyone think Salmonds MANDATE adds up to much? Just curious like.
So it's shaping up to iScotland using the pound, but without currency union, yes? Is this a good thing?
I can't see any rUK politician advocating 'punishments' on iScotland, that would just be silly - they wouldn't need to do that.
All any prospective candidate needs to say is "I will not vote for a Currency Union with an Independent Scotland" and their electorate will be happy enough.
It bears repeating, defending OUR interests is NOT punishing an Independent Scotland, it is simply defending our own interests, something the advocates of Independence seem to be very strong upon.
To the average rUK voter the CU issue is No1, the rest is unimportant by comparison. I don't think the Yes supporters in Scotland can grasp how strongly we feel about that particular issue.
That's why its a non-starter, we (and our elected representatives) simply will not vote for it.
The silly thing is, if Mr Salmond had said something along the lines of "in our move towards a stable economic position, an Independent Scotland would seek a short term financial union with the UK" then many may have felt more warmly towards the idea, but his overbearing arrogance* in insisting that CU will happen and that everyone else is telling lies has simply hardened our desire not to allow it.
*an alleged English trait according to some.
That's not what the Future of England survey found:
you seem to have a low opinion of ruk citizens. Personally I don't share that view.richc - Member
As I said this will be a bitter divorce; so if a rUK MP can do something to hurt iS it will make them popular
I'm curious why Salmond is so wedded to a CU?
A hard line - if you think saying no to CU is such then maybe.
Most voters don't even know much about what Scotland will or won't get in the event of Independence, although expecting Scotland to bear the same amount of cuts as England/Wales/N.Ireland is hardly 'punishment' is it?
Anyone think Salmonds MANDATE adds up to much? Just curious like.
What do you think Salmond was getting at using the mandate line?
I think some people missed the point. He wasn't saying that having a mandate from the Scottish people meant rUK had to agree to a CU. He was using it to bait Darling and others like him. After a Yes vote, as elected representatives, Darling and co would have an obligation to go into negotiations with rUK reflecting the will of the Scottish people. He was trying to get Darling to commit to whether or not he would do this.
you seem to have a low opinion of ruk citizens. Personally I don't share that view.
And I hope you're right, althought I suspect you're not; especially after the European elections where UKIP was chosen by the majority of rUK citzens to represent their views in Europe.
Which gives you a flavour of rUK citizens who can be arsed to vote, as tbh the non-voting masses don't really count as they are appear to be happy to go with whatever the majority decides.
I'm curious why Salmond is so wedded to a CU?
@futon - it's like the ultimate free lunch. Scotland get to use an establish currency with full backing of the Bank of England without having to set up their own central bank. Also, and absolutely central, this is AS's best plan to try and avoid having to take the euro
this is AS's best plan to try and avoid having to take the euro
I thought it was non-negotiable that new countries joining the EU had to take the Euro?
Going back to a Scottish Currency, i don't claim to be an economist but Mr Salmond has at one & the same time claimed Scotland will be the richest Nation ever to declare Independence and yet infer that Scotland needs a Currency Union so badly he will ignore any other option.
So which is it?
this is AS's best plan to try and avoid having to take the euro
I thought it was non-negotiable that new countries joining the EU had to take the Euro?
Quite pickle isn't it? How did we get here, oh hang on a minute........... Salmond has really thought this through, hasn't he?
Pretty sure Salmond said he was going to Westminster with a MANDATE for negotiations. I could also see that he was trying to trap AD into supporting him. But he made a lot of that mandate, my question is, does it add up to much? Also it seems to me that AS was saying that they were going to use the pound, CU or no CU. Both those points got really big cheers from the audience too......
I have always considered myself British first and feel very sad that what I have always thought to be my country, the United Kingdom, could end in a few weeks time because a small minority of the population of the United Kingdom feel they will be better off by being independent. I get no vote on the future of my country, the United Kingdom, and just have to stand on the sidelines and hope that a majority of those that do have a vote will see sense and vote no. If Scotland does vote to go independent I will feel very bitter towards the politicians who have allowed this to happen.
If Scotland does vote to go independent I will feel very bitter towards the politicians who have allowed this to happen.
The ones in Westminster, the ones in Holyrood or both?
kjcc25 - Member
...because a small minority of the population of the United Kingdom feel they will be better off by being independent...
Having difficulty recognising that Scotland is a country, are we?
kjcc25 - Member
...If Scotland does vote to go independent I will feel very bitter towards the politicians who have allowed this to happen.
Whereas up here we will be very grateful.
The ones in Westminster.
The legal right of people to decide their own destiny is a core principle of international law and is enshrined in the UN Charter.
Westminster politicians have a legal obligation to recognise that right.
So try not to feel too bitter towards Westminster politicians if the vote doesn't go the way you would prefer.
It's not their fault that you were born 100 years too late.
Whereas up here we will be very grateful.
Who are we? Plenty of us will not be very grateful. Your opinion does not speak for all Scots.
athgray - Member
Who are we? Plenty of us will not be very grateful. Your opinion does not speak for all Scots.
The majority...
So after Better Together's last TV advert featured a BNP-supporting woman who wants to hang Catholics - it's a honest mistake, could happen to anyone - they've decided to go all out for the women's vote with this:
Good grief.
I thought it was non-negotiable that new countries joining the EU had to take the Euro?
This was discussed at great length on multiple pages earlier in this thread.
e.g. here:
http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/osbourne-says-no-to-currency-union/page/8#post-5770789
Allegedly Scotland could agree to join the Euro but not have an actual timescale and just stay out of it forever.
Sweden is in the same position.
Weird focus in that video. Sorry, I spend my life worrying about image quality so that's all I really care about.
The tone of this debate has taken a turn for the worse with hopes for a the separation to be painful and intolerable for a newly independent Scotland. Here's the thing - it's that attitude that will make more and more and more people vote yes and will only serve to make the majority in favour of yes even bigger.
So after Better Together's last TV advert featured a BNP-supporting woman who wants to hang Catholics - it's a honest mistake, could happen to anyone - they've decided to go all out for the women's vote with this:
Linky for proof (or at least where youve got it from)
Edit: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28837313
Genuine interest.
Shit video
Sweden is in the same position.
Not quite
Sweden negotiated entry on the basis of having to join the Euro, then once 'in' the club decided (after a non binding referendum) to delay indefinitely.
Scotland's plan is to negotiate entry after having [b]already[/b] showed its cards that it has no intent to complete the Euro membership process. Its already been pointed out here that this constitutes a pretty poor negotiating position.
wanmankylung - MemberThe tone of this debate has taken a turn for the worse with hopes for a the separation to be painful and intolerable for a newly independent Scotland. Here's the thing - it's that attitude that will make more and more and more people vote yes and will only serve to make the majority in favour of yes even bigger.
wanmankylung - MemberYou make it sound like having massive oil reserves is a bad thing. I bet that rUK would tear Scotland's hand off if we said hat we didn't want the oil because it was too volatile... But that's not going to happen because that would be stupid.
May I suggest that rUK will retain their need for massive borrowing and that the interest rates they will be charged will increase and that is your main gripe about Scotland leaving the UK. [b]I have no problem with the rUK's economy suffering as a result of Scotland becoming independent.[/b] Scotland has been subsidising the rUK for a lot of years.
Weird focus in that video. Sorry, I spend my life worrying about image quality so that's all I really care about.
Yes, are they trying for arty tilt shift and failing, do you think?
Linky for proof (or at least where youve got it from)
Cheers 😉