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I'm NOT slagging off the NHS in anyway in this post but want to know your opinion after having an argument with a friend over this matter.
A nurse comes to the home of a different friend to swab her for CV19. Friend has COPD etc. Friend asks nurse why she isn't wearing a mask to take the swab etc (and bloods, no idea why bloods though). Nurse replies that she has been a nurse for 25 years and "masks do nothing".
What is your opinion guys? I know masks (particularly the standard surgical kind) offer the wearer little protection but they do offer those around them some.
Surely it's not good practice to be visiting multiple at risk patients in their homes to swab for CV19 and not wear a mask to help limit infection if the nurse is an asympmatic carrier?
Thoughts? I just want to see if my take on this is right or that I should just "trust the word of a nurse of 25 years."
THIS IS NOT A DIG AT THE AMAZING PEOPLE THAT WORK IN THE NHS, OK? That includes my partner I might add.
It very much depends on what she / he has been told to do but I doubt she / he is supposed to be going into homes without one.
I'd put that down as the opinion of one nurse. There's tens of thousands of nurses. They don't all think the same.
My point is that there will be policy and the nurse should be following it even if they think its wrong
I am being told to wear masks at work in situations I do not believe they are needed. I am wearing the damn thing.
The nurse should be following policy
The person doing the swab should be in full ppe I believe (that is what happened with one of my colleagues.)
The bloods are for wider testing of what's going on in the patient for research, basically. I think.
P.s this.... trust the word of a nurse of 25 years.... Means nothing, I've had to explain to some nurses that antibiotics won't work against viruses etc'
Christ, second edit... Please don't think I'm saying I think nurses are thick!! I just mean not everyone knows everything or is correct all the time, despite experience!! Including me!!
General members of the public, pointless waste, nurse going into the home of someone with COPD who has very likely been in contact with Covud 19 ibfected people, absolutely good practice.
There is a lot of difference in technical knowledge between a theatre nurse and someone out in the community. 25 years of experience or not I think the nurse could do with some refresher training.
All our patient contacts in A&E are masks on for clinician and patient, and if taking swabs, which have a high chance of causing cough or sneeze, we wear ffp3 and eye protection. I think this is a worrying lack of protection for this nurse and their patients.
Quite a few people (inc healthcare professionals) don’t seem to grasp the fact the PPE is to protect the patient as much as it is to protect themselves.
I am a social worker not a nurse so maybe different policy. But i go into people's homes without wearing a mask - I am required to wear masks when visiting hospitals .. yep not too clear.
Visiting a covid ward today I was carefully instructed to rub hands with steriliser on entry then inspected I had the flimsy surgical mask on correctly; sat reading the notes before meeting patient when a nurse manager came into room to ask me a question - within a couple minutes her mask was pulled down under her chin so she could talk to me more clearly .. I guess the masks are just for show anyways.
Visiting a covid ward today I was carefully instructed to rub hands with steriliser on entry then inspected I had the flimsy surgical mask on correctly; sat reading the notes before meeting patient when a nurse manager came into room to ask me a question – within a couple minutes her mask was pulled down under her chin so she could talk to me more clearly .. I guess the masks are just for show anyways.
This is where it gets tricky- PPE shouldn’t really be worn in communal areas. The headache is where the communal area is within a clinical area eg ward managers office on a ward
U.K. Healthcare Secondary care guidance (eg wards)
She’s an idiot.
Wife’s a District Nurse.
It’s complex and it differs from region to region.
IF your friend was being swabbed for Covid because it’s suspected she has it she should be wearing full PPE, well whatever PPE she been given.
In theory if your friend isn’t displaying symptoms they don’t need to, and probably don’t have enough PPE for every patient yet.
But, and this is a big but, at least in our region they’re not swabbing non symptomatic people as it can often produce a false negative.
That said masks appear to be better at protecting people near the mask wearer from transmission than the other way around.
In theory if your friend isn’t displaying symptoms they don’t need to
I agree this what’s driving some of the confusion. Some areas are defining possible as meaning ’symptomatic but not yet tested’. Other areas are defining it as any patient, because in theory anyone could have it.
Most coronavirus transmission now is from asymptomatic carriers.
#iamnotanepidemiologistorvirologist
Forgot to mention, the test came back positive for CV19. Worried for her.
Thos whole mask thing will be some mad riddle for the ages. No shade on you poopscoop, totaliy valid question.
There aren't enough masks available so the gov't floats around different theories as to why masks don't really work / aren't really necessary / give you a false sense of security etc.
See what P-Jay said up there?
That.
There aren’t enough masks available so the gov’t floats around different theories as to why masks don’t really work / aren’t really necessary / give you a false sense of security etc.
It doesn’t PHE recommends PPE level 2 for all patient contact. The nurse is supposedly saying she doesn’t need to which does against the advice. The masks protect the nurse, patients and others.
Most coronavirus transmission now is from asymptomatic carriers.
Got any evidence to back up that assertion?
Maybe... it's due to a lack of ppe supply
Maybe… it’s due to a lack of ppe supply
Nurse replies that she has been a nurse for 25 years and “masks do nothing”.
Maybe not.
Maybe there's more to it than her just stating that!
Maybe but maybe she’s it also made up.
I know masks (particularly the standard surgical kind) offer the wearer little protection but they do offer those around them some.
If they’re FFP2 which they should be then they offer lots of protection.
It would surely protect the px.
I am far from convinced how much protection a basic mask gives however my opinion is irrelevant as is that of this nurse. We should all be following policy
Th point is the nurse increased her risk of catching it and therefore increases the risk of spreading it around once she has it (especially as she is not going to be wearing a mask)
Just as in care homes, it is not so much about the carers getting it from the residents, it is the carers giving it to the residents.
Got any evidence to back up that assertion?
You can do it just by numbers/theory but I suspect pre-lockdown it was the case and more so now.
I guess all bets are off though with the nurse in the thread and lack of PPE. In theory someone at deaths door should be isolated and those in immediate vicinity should be very effectively protected.
I think a concensus is now forming or becoming more prevalent that the main danger for this virus vs something like Spanish Flu or Ebola is the long and asymptomatic incubation phase.
Several Doctor colleagues have complained that the advice on what PPE is best is clearly dictated by what their trust/PHE has available
(Also complaints that the boxes of masks have 3 best before stickers over the top.of each other on them!)
It's possible that best they can offer a surgical mask to the nurse, they have a limited time of use & once moist become less effective.
So she may have a point, or just not like wearing a mask all the time!
Slight hijack...
What do we think of a dad who lives in a flat in London who has been infected ,insist that he is going to collect his sons that have been isolated for 3 weeks and have them spend the weekend with him in London?
Got any evidence to back up that assertion?
A fair bit, including the below
There is also a load of data that’s been shared with NHS trusts, including mine, to help planning, and the issue of asymptomatic transmission between staff was a prominent point (data compiled by a Professor of something or other). This hasn’t all been published in the public domain.
Several Doctor colleagues have complained that the advice on what PPE is best is clearly dictated by what their trust/PHE has available
(Also complaints that the boxes of masks have 3 best before stickers over the top.of each other on them!)It’s possible that best they can offer a surgical mask to the nurse, they have a limited time of use & once moist become less effective.
Most of the "best before" is bollox anyway. Exceptions being active filters (not surgical).
Specifically for COVID the passive surgical masks are easily reusuable .. just put it somewhere dry for 3-4 days... but that doesn't mean it can't still have other pathogens.
Mostly ....
Stop slagging off the NHS!
Who/what do you call "The NHS"? Same as any organisation lots of good people are employed by crap managers and people that play at "politics" usually call the shots and set policies. With private organisations politics is mainly internal, the NHS being what it is "politics" spills out wider.
Several Doctor colleagues have complained that the advice on what PPE is best is clearly dictated by what their trust/PHE has available
(Also complaints that the boxes of masks have 3 best before stickers over the <span class="skimlinks-unlinked">top.of</span> each other on them!)It’s possible that best they can offer a surgical mask to the nurse, they have a limited time of use & once moist become less effective.
PHE follow WHO advice so not that no. Yes different dates but they’ve been shown to last way past the best before. The use time is around 2 hours but they’re single use 1 per patient anyway plus you can change them if yurt feeling they’re becoming past their best.
If you went into the surgery where my wife works you would think there is no such thing as covid19 if you go in the staff room…
Please don’t think everywhere is like your wife’s work place.
my workplace it is impossible to social distance - simply not possible.
my workplace it is impossible to social distance – simply not possible.
Same for my wife. When you know what is happening in some places it makes all this stuff about wiping gates etc seem petty.
What do we think of a dad who lives in a flat in London who has been infected ,insist that he is going to collect his sons that have been isolated for 3 weeks and have them spend the weekend with him in London?
Eh..so the dad is currently infected and rather than staying in quarantine is leaving the house to pick up his non infected sons?
Have I read that right??!
Same as any organisation lots of good people are employed by crap managers
And the same could be said the other way around, there are loads of opinionated, under educated people at the sharp end in most organisations as well.
Same for my wife. When you know what is happening in some places it makes all this stuff about wiping gates etc seem petty.
At first glance perhaps but actually since that then means more infected people touching more gates it's the opposite.