[Closed] Oops! Someone best phone social services....

ninfan, I quite regularly see goats packed in lorries like that on their way to slaughter. It certainly has more impact than cuddly toy puppets- Truly heartbreaking to see

rsmythe, you're right but saying 'show kids how animals are farmed, stop them eating meat and it'll all be rainbows and world peace' isn't a solution.

The problem is complex and blaming it on humans using animals to convert grass into protein isn't really focusing on the main issue.

[edit]

[i]Truly heartbreaking to see [/i]

really?

Like a close relative dying or the end of love with someone?

Every time you see one of these lorries?

I suspect what you get is a momentary feeling of sadness and then get on with your day.

Not weeks of feelings of loss and abandonment.

Looks like the OP cracked under the weight of righteous indignation he wished to cause with the first post. 😀

As rebellion goes, it could have been a lot worse...

Af the parents were that bothered they should have given the kid a lunchbox with acceptable foodstuffs.

And to all the people that are getting all sanctimonious because a kid ate a burger, will pure explode when their daughters reach the teenage years.

I quite regularly see goats packed in lorries like that on their way to slaughter. It certainly has more impact than cuddly toy puppets- Truly heartbreaking to see

Funny, I quite regularly see people shooting pigeons & rabbits to protect cereal, pea and brassica crops, lovely extensively reared clean, green and nuclear free meat, murdered in the name of protecting vegetables!

and thats before we touch on the wholesale slaughter of rodents in the food chain. Or the ecological disaster of pesticides that has wiped out the food sources for many of our native birds - and thats in the UK where our laws are strict, imagine what its like in the south american banana plantations!

But I suppose its easy enough for the self-righteous vegans to pretend this doesn't go on in their name, because they don't see it!

Let them without sin cast the first stone, eh herbivores?

wwaswas, my last post was trying to point out that I appreciate that there are many examples of unfairness in the world and that we should be conscious of all of them. I believe that veganism is a bloody good start on the way to living a fairer lifestyle. I also think that you are overestimating the amount of meat for sale that is grass fed. It is hard to find the UK statistics but certainly in the US, the overwhelming percentage of cows are fed grains and soya, making meat production terribly inefficient. However, if all of your meat comes from cows reared on land where crops can't be grown, I accept your point on a purely efficiency basis. I very much doubt that this is the case though.

Wow ninfan, a very aggressive response to what was effectively me saying that it's heartbreaking to see goats on their way to slaughter.

Funny, I quite regularly see people shooting pigeons & rabbits to protect cereal, pea and brassica crops, lovely extensively reared clean, green and nuclear free meat, murdered in the name of protecting vegetables!

and thats before we touch on the wholesale slaughter of rodents in the food chain. Or the ecological disaster of pesticides that has wiped out the food sources for many of our native birds - and thats in the UK where our laws are strict, imagine what its like in the south american banana fields!

But surely this kind of thing happens when producing plants for livestock to eat? And wasn't there a recent badger cull in the name of protecting livestock? All of my posts have tried to emphasise the difficulties of living a totally fair lifestyle. Also, are you trying to say that only vegans eat bananas?

Don't get your point ninfan. 70% of cereals are grown to be fed to livestock. If more people were vegan, surely you'd have to shoot fewer pigeons (and people shoot pigeons to protect cereals.... yeah right :roll:)

I may be in a minority here but I would be a bit narked if someone ignored my views when looking after my child. We are fairly easy going but wouldn't be pleased if for example, someone let my children watch an age inappropriate film.

Yes please, Bikebouy. Halãl, Kosher, whatever you've got, very well done with lots of ketchup.

Christ! 24 hours later and we're still doing this! Might bugger off back to the wilderness for another couple of years! Anyone done any good riding lately?

Right. I think I've really nailed this time.

What if you took kids who's parents insisted, based on deep cultural grounds and a firm and sincere moral belief, that their children be physically punished on the spot, by the person who they are in the immediate care of should they commit 'offence A' and then they commit 'offence A' when you're out of phone signal and they've just boarded a plane to antarctica?

Do pay attention Edukator. They're all eating caterpillars now.

Binners is our official meat missionary. Bloody great work.
Parents who indoctrinate their children into vegetarianism etc.
are not rights. You did well. I bet your quarter pounder went down
even better than usual knowing you had spread the normal, varied diet
thang to that poor girl.

She's gone a bit hyper!

You really would have basked in the light of my utmost admiration if
you'd have managed to get her to drop a diazepam to calm her down after
her protein/sugar/fat/carb' fest 😉

I don't believe a vegi (more so vegan) diet is healthy for a growing child and its made worse if the mother is one during pregnancy. I can't imagine my kids having to eat all the extra bits and bobs they would need in a diet lacking meat (certainly couldn't afford it either or the extra TP lol ).

I tried to think of a reasoned argument, using some JY style bullet points but I'm just going to have to say - bollocks. On all fronts, just bollocks.

brassneck, 3 kids, veggie, veggie wife no one dead yet. And certainly no baby robins.

I've seen corn grown in some horrible conditions, packed into fields with no real space, expected to stand to attention 24/7 for months on end and then having it's legs cut off whilst still alive!

I'll never have a veggie burger again.

poah - Member

.... I want my kids to grow up fit and healthy, once they are adults they are free to choose their diet, religion and sexuality

What about choosing a wheel size? ... 😆

on a more serious note don't you think it might be an idea to suggest the child broaches the subject with her parents? If she's really not happy with her diet isn't a proper discussion with her parents better than deception?*

In my case eldest has no interest in it or eating it

Youngest said he would when he was older till he was about 6
We then had a serious chat [ as serious as you can with a 6 year old - he felt as serious as you could with me to be fair] and he declined to eat it eventually but it was a very real option. He did have chats with meat eater friends to discuss it with them but decided not to.
I will be surprised if the eldest eats meat tbh and amazed if the youngest does not at least try it at some point.
Overall I would be more pissed of if they felt the need to lie to me and that another parent helped them do it.

Food eating need not be the unethical, environmental bugbear that it currently is, we just have to pay more for it to be less so

Yep. Buy free-range meat, if you can.

But surely this kind of thing happens when producing plants for livestock to eat?

Depends. If you keep cows in a shed and feed them grain, then probably. If you let sheep onto a hillside then no. Grass-fed beef, or better still organic because (presumably) the hay they eat in the winter will be produced without pesticides and consequently greater biodiversity..? Indeed, if people are traditionally producing hay to feed cows that'll do no end of good for the environment.

I tried to think of a reasoned argument, using some JY style bullet points but I'm just going to have to say - bollocks. On all fronts, just bollocks.

Maybe bolt-gun points, whilst being effectively stunned first.

I would be surprised if parents do not discuss this with their child - you think we can resist telling them why we dont eat meat

Do you know Binners?

[edit]

Truly heartbreaking to see

really?

Like a close relative dying or the end of love with someone?

Every time you see one of these lorries?

I suspect what you get is a momentary feeling of sadness and then get on with your day.

Not weeks of feelings of loss and abandonment.

wwaswas, I also don't spend weeks on end mourning the death of a person that I do not know very well, a friend of a friend or a distant relative that I haven't seen for years, for example. That does not mean that they are worth less than a member of my own family just because I have a weaker emotional bond to them. So in answer to your question, yes, heartbreaking enough that I've stopped supporting that industry. The most heartbreaking thing is that they were never given an opportunity to be an individual or to be loved by anyone. Just treated as a product to be unnecessarily killed in the name of 'taste.'

Don't get your point ninfan. 70% of cereals are grown to be fed to livestock.

Nope, that figure was shown to be bollocks years ago, and even then it was based on the US, where cattle are mainly reared in areas that are otherwise agriculturally unproductive,

If more people were vegan, surely you'd have to shoot fewer pigeons

No, we'd have to shoot more, as there would be less land under pasture or crop, so more scrub and woodland for the pigeons to breed and live in, hence more pigeons.

(and people shoot pigeons to protect cereals.... yeah right :roll:)

Ah, proof of the townie talking out of their fundament - you've never cut open a pigeon's crop I take it? Plus I carefully pointed out that I was not just talking cereals but pea and brassica crops, and rabbit damage.

Pigeons eat grain, but how much grain is lost to pigeons? And how much time do farmers spend camped out with a shotgun fending off pigeons? Given the unprofitability of grain in the first place, I suspect not much.

wwaswas, I also don't spend weeks on end mourning the death of a person that I do not know very well, a friend of a friend or a distant relative that I haven't seen for years, for example. That does not mean that they are worth less than a member of my own family just because I have a weaker emotional bond to them. So in answer to your question, yes, heartbreaking enough that I've stopped supporting that industry. The most heartbreaking thing is that they were never given an opportunity to be an individual or to be loved by anyone. Just treated as a product to be unnecessarily killed in the name of 'taste.'

"Look at this jungle. Look at those vines, the way they twine around, swallowing everything. Nature's cruel, Staros." - The Thin Red Line.

and

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF02436507

[i] I also don't spend weeks on end mourning the death of a person that I do not know very well[/i]

nobody does, hence my querying your choice of emotion.

[i]they were never given an opportunity to be an individual or to be loved by anyone
[/i]

Is this goats we're talking about?

Do goats *need* love? Can they express it?

I'm not criticising your choice not to eat meat. Equally, I've never worried that the cow I'm eating never had a chance to find love in it's life.

I'm not criticising your choice not to eat meat. Equally, I've never worried that the cow I'm eating never had a chance to find love in it's life.

Hah.

I can't be bothered to read all the inevitable arguing...but if my kids were being looked after by another parent I would expect them to eat what they were given.

If I had specific food requirements (like vegan stuff) then I should provide a packed lunch, unless I had an agreement that they would go to a particular type of restaurant (in which case I would expect to pay for it).

I wouldn't expect another parent to take their children to a vegan restaurant just because my child cannot eat anything else.

Ohohoh

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10702160

I went to an Argentinian steak restaurant the other day and had a £30 sirloin steak....

It tasted delicious.

I also don't feel bad about it.

Pigeons eat grain, but how much grain is lost to pigeons?

Records show up to 200grammes per bird in a day (though they would not take this amount every day) - one study reckoned between 3 and 6% of total wheat crops were lost to birds

And how much time do farmers spend camped out with a shotgun fending off pigeons?

Very little, generally provided by shooters as a free service to the farmer in return for the sport - the pigeons sold into the food chain normally cover their costs.

Clean, green, nuclear free, extensively reared and tasty meat - what could be better?

I also don't feel bad about it.

Well, you should.

Maybe.

Or maybe not.

This thread is becoming less clear about what dietary choice is the right one.

Donk hard to say what what age is appropriate I guess it depends on the kid but yes it is al conjecture and I doubt the master of ceremonies will [s]make up [/s] provide the answer anytime soon

Do you know Binners?

Mc hamish you are repeating the same arguments and the same tired old jokes [ they were not original before this thread never mind 13 pages in with many examples ]

if my kids were being looked after by another parent I would expect them to eat what they were given.

I went to an Argentinian steak restaurant the other day and had a £30 sirloin steak....

It tasted delicious.

I also don't feel bad about it.

You should feel bad. Argentinian? Have you forgotten about the Falkland Islands?

[i]Have you forgotten about the Falkland Islands? [/i]

It's all deep fried penguin in Falkland Islands restaurants.

Ah, proof of the townie talking out of their fundament - you've never cut open a pigeon's crop I take it? Plus I carefully pointed out that I was not just talking cereals but pea and brassica crops, and rabbit damage.

Err, everyone I know in that there countryside what I lives in shoots pigeons for fun as far as I can tell rather than protect anything. That's certainly what they tell me anyway, not 'he were worryin' my crops'.

Sorry JY, I appreciate I'm letting the side down. 25+ years of the same old shite have made me grow weary. And 13 pages were just the feather (picked from a hedgeside folks, nothing to see here) cap on it.

Are the Falkland Islands the Newcastle of the South Atlantic now?

Blimey someone's tired....

You should feel bad. Argentinian? Have you forgotten about the Falkland Islands?

It's ok, I didn't tip

Can we let Shibboleth back in just to get threads like this shut down so we can all move on? He could be "rebanned" immeadiately afterward. 🙂

*Plays Junkyard's game*

[i]you are repeating the same arguments and the same tired old jokes[/i]
+
[i]Awesome stella and whiskey chasers all round[/i]

Hmmm..?

Clean, green, nuclear free, extensively reared and tasty meat

You forgot corn-fed.

They can't shoot much pigeon though because it's hardly flooding the supermarkets, surely?

Awesome stella and whiskey chasers all round

I think you must realise this is quite a poor argument.

Difficult to argue with any of this really:

If I had specific food requirements (like vegan stuff) then I should provide a packed lunch, unless I had an agreement that they would go to a particular type of restaurant (in which case I would expect to pay for it).

I wouldn't expect another parent to take their children to a vegan restaurant just because my child cannot eat anything else.

I still think covering it up is out of order though.

[img] [/img]

Oh has this already been said? I haven't read the thread. 🙂

let's hope binners doesn't take the kid camping...

[img] [/img]

Late to this but have read through most of the arguments and can't help having sympathy with both sides.

Personally I managed to bring up kids without exposing them to the Golden Arches and the three eldest still avoid it to this day, the fourth however would be all over binners like a bad rash, so my choice is wether I'm happy to enforce my beliefs by making her not hang out with her friend who happens to have a parent with a less than enlightened attitude to food and kids.

I wouldn't however lose that much sleep over it, with kids you can but show them a way, if they follow all well and good if they choose not to, then san ferry anne, you did your best.

Funny last night a good mate was teaching his kid to be a fish murderer, and the little b'stard was pulling out Rudd by the dozen, we engaged in some friendly banter, I pointed out to the kid those little fish were some big fish's children and how would he liked being dragged up into the sky by a space alien with a hook in his mouth and through the jest you could see he was thinking about it, - then went back to catch another dozen. The point is, they've got their own minds, you have to accept that and guide rather than force with your own values...

is there a highlights show on BBC2 at 10 o'clock?

I still think covering it up is out of order though.

He's not though, is he? Did they ask him and did he lie? I doubt it.

The girl is the one who has to decide if she tells them or not.

Indeed. Does that fall under freedom of choice? Hmmmmmmmm. None of the right-ons seem too hot on that particular concept

Anyway.... It's fair trade, corn-fed humous, and ethically sourced organic, soil association approved broccoli for tea, while we settle down for a documentary about murdering cattle. That'll learn us all! 😀

They can't shoot much pigeon though because it's hardly flooding the supermarkets, surely?

Most of it goes to somewhere where they appreciate the quality of their food:

http://fxcuisine.com/Default.asp?language=2&Display=32&resolution=high

Awesome stella and whiskey chasers all round
I think you must realise this is quite a poor argument.

The booze thing also works as it is perfectly legal to give a child booze , as it is a burger. I assume that most would object to someone, who though this was ok, getting their kids pissed and then keeping it secret from them.
The burger [ booze] is exactly the same except you think it is ok and the vegans dont. Its the same scenario with a different a different thing.
I suspect most are insisting it is not the same as you have to accept I have a point as you all know you would object. Its is not complicated ot grasp.

FFS are you lot still arguing?

Even for STW this is scraping the barrel. 😉

The first couple of pages were quite fun, now it's gone all Singletracksy.

Gunz - Member
The first couple of pages were quite fun, now it's gone all Singletracksy.

No it hasn't. Where did it go all

Singletracksy

😉 😉

So, based on the past 13 (!!!) pages, as a man who is old enough to make up his own mind about food, but with vegetarian parents who would rather I didnt eat meat, what shall I have for tea?

Make your own mind up obviously but tell them the truth

The later bit appears to be the contentious bit though 😉

Not read all the thread, but I have been a vegetarian for 30 years (for health reasons) and in that time been the subject of many jokes about my diet, which were actually borderline insults in many cases. I'm with Junkyard on this one!

Maybe it was a test for the girl...

FFS are you lot still arguing?

No, we're having a discussion, which you're not bringing anything remotely valuable to.

what shall I have for tea?

Whatever you like. In't choice brilliant?!

Only just read this thread, and having done so, I'm completely outraged.

Thank god for that!!!

Part of me wonders what the transit time through a vegan of a mcdonalds burger would be. Would it be faster or slower than through someone like Elvis?

Also, are they lack toast and tolerant? 😉

I have been a vegetarian for 30 years (for health reasons)

If you don't mind me asking, what health reasons?.

As far as I'm aware, there is no peer reviewed studies showing a vegetarian or vegan diet is beneficial over an unprocessed meat diet.

As far as I'm aware there's possibly some chronic illnesses relating to the digestive system that can benefit from the reduction and possible exclusion of meat from the diet..

As far as I'm aware there's possibly some chronic illnesses relating to the digestive system that can benefit from the reduction and possible exclusion of meat from the diet..

Is this supposed to be some form of rebuttal?, or are you trying to be clever? because, if so, you're failing miserably.

Can cause IBS to flare up on occasion which is rather unpleasant even with a mildish case

Can cause IBS to flare up on occasion which is rather unpleasant even with a mildish case

Hi LoCo,

I've got a shock I'll send to you when I stop procrastinating.

But on topic, what can "cause IBS to flare up on occasion"?, as someone with a close relative with IBS, it's completely dependent on the person isn't it?. I'm not 100% informed on the situation, so I'm only going off what I've been told.

Yep I'll go veggie for weeks at a time sometimes because of this, &
yep fire us a booking form and we'll get you booked in.

LoCo,

Thanks and will do.

Is this supposed to be some form of rebuttal?, or are you trying to be clever? because, if so, you're failing miserably.

[img] [/img]

Last night I had a Saag Chana and two rotti's from my local takeaway. It was stunning.

But Hora, did you feed any kids who aren't allowed "foreign food" at home? You know. Level 5 ukip parents who won't eat anything prepared by someone who looks a bit shadowy...

Can cause IBS to flare up on occasion which is rather unpleasant even with a mildish case

My wife doesn't eat meat for this reason. I do eat a bit, but over the past year have started getting IBS symptoms if l eat a lot of it.

I was vegetarian for a few years and have been pesciverous for over twenty I felt immediate health benefits and became very ill when I reverted to meat eating for a month. Pure anecdote I know but for me the health benefits are real .
In relation to the initial post I think Binners is being a bit silly in his gloating but at the end of the day I would be more upset by someone taking crankbrat to somewhere as unpleasant as McD's as allowing him to chose to eat meat. At a very healthy 32 months he has no meat in his diet and does not eat it at parties except for chick in nuggets which he mistakes for fish fingers . When he is 10 I will trust crankbrat to make his own choice about meat but it will be fully informed and he better be prepared to kill and prepare it with my godfather . If you can't kill an animal you should not eat one .

My diet choices are however now rooted as much in habit and preference as morality . Junkyard's I would respect absolutely if I invited his kids to a party I would ensure that as my guests I catered for their diet . The idea that you invite a child but expect the parents to proved diet specific food is frankly weirded surely it is the hosts obligation and pleasure to ensure everyone enjoys themselves.

I would be more upset by someone taking crankbrat to somewhere as unpleasant as McD's as allowing him to chose to eat meat.

Now that's ridiculous.

It is ridiculous to think that Mc Donalds is not healthy and not a place you would want your kid to go to ? Is there nothing/nowhere you would object to them consuming or going to eat?

What about witherspoons then - can we go there instead Molly? 😉

My kids have been once, for a poo

Eldest on leaving in loud voice so he was heard

" daddy why are all these people so fat?"
me walking faster trying to ignore him

" is it because they eat too much and dont exercise"
" pretty much son, pretty much"

True story

It is ridiculous to think that Mc Donalds is not healthy and not a place you would want your kid to go to ?

It's ridiculous to think that one unhealthy meal on a day out is going to be a big issue.

As a pescetarian I feel I should be in this thread. What's going on, then?

What about one fag on a healthy day out then 😉

Wont do any harm either eh
OK now I am torturing analogies but they may return to explain their reasons.
Given you questioning nature, I am surprised you dont understand why someone may object to Mc Donalds as an eatery,
You must have encountered this view before. I