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Can't see a thread on the French government meltdown. An unholy alliance of the far left and far right have brought down the centrist government trying to sort the massive budget deficit France is running. Seems not dissimilar to the issues here,boring centrist government trying to sort out the longer term problems resulting from telling the people they can have their cake and eat it for decades finally hitting the buffers of reality. Populist extremes on both sides with no real solutions pile on telling the people what they want to hear rather than what they need to hear. Germany seems similar (spent a lot of time working there this year) rise of the far right, generous labour laws and welfare resulting in very high absence from work and high profile German manufacturers (Volkswagen and Bosch) shutting plants in Germany which is unheard of.
Its all self created ( Macron's little summer of fun ) but Putin has his fingers all over this I think, just as in Georgia ( blatant ) and South Korea ( less obvious ) but he has the political extremes on the march, all to suit him.
boring centrist government trying to sort out the longer term problems resulting from telling the people they can have their cake and eat it for decades
Funny how boring centrists govts are always comfortable telling working people they can't have their cake and eat it but do exactly the opposite to the mega-rich and the financial and corporate elite. Until centrist parties across the west begin to reverse the flow of money from poor to rich 'extremist' (is it extreme to suggest we can do something different to the status quo?) parties will gain more and more support.
Until centrist parties across the west begin to reverse the flow of money from poor to rich
Which is going to be difficult to do if the government is being undermined by inter-party squabbling and is dissolved. The likes of LePen and Farage are paid by monied interest to keep moving the goalposts so that there is always something else to complain about. Until the people who lend their support to the likes of these parties gain some critical thinking facilities and realise that National Rally and Reform have zero interest in solving their problems - quite the reverse in fact, then things are unlikely to improve.
Which is going to be difficult to do if the government is being undermined by inter-party squabbling and is dissolved
This was all Macrons making, the "left" was the biggest party in the election, and he stabbed them in the back and apointed a right wing PM. Why should the left keep supporting the centrists when the centrists are more interested in attacking the left than dealing with the actual problems caused my their constant march to the right.
Although I am not sure centrist really describes these parties, they are now traditional right wing parties, "centrist" is just marketing bullshit.
Can’t see a thread on the French government meltdown.
There was one from June https://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/french-elections/
An unholy alliance of the far left and far right have brought down the centrist government trying to sort the massive budget deficit France is running. Seems not dissimilar to the issues here
That's a strange conclusion imo, I cannot see an obvious comparison to the UK. The ruling UK government party has a massive majority. It isn't threatened by an unholy alliance of the far left and far right, and it's not going to be "brought down" at any time in the next 4-5 years.
And the "centrists" in France have governed for years, so I don't know whose massive deficit you think they have been trying to sort out.
high profile German manufacturers (Volkswagen and Bosch) shutting plants in Germany which is unheard of
The German car industry is also shutting plants in Germany. Two main reasons being they bet big on forcing the German government to block the legislation forcing the shift to electric and didn't invest enough in developing electrical vehicles, and while they managed to slow the legislation down they didn't stop it and the gamble failed and they are now in trouble. Secondly they are moving some production to north america to head of Trumps trade war.
That’s a strange conclusion imo,
Ok so no massive rise of the far right in the UK, everyone's happy with the current centrist government telling them there is a bill to pay, Okay.......
And the “centrists” in France have governed for years, so I don’t know whose massive deficit you think they have been trying to sort out.
The whole of French politics has been about the demands of the people for years, no politicians in France have had the balls to say no, if they did they got them lopped off. It would be interesting to see just how bad it is now for the centrists to finally step up and acknowledge the situation.
Ok so no massive rise of the far right in the UK
It's hardly comparable to France is it? And where is the comparable far-left which you claim has formed an unholy alliance with the far-right to bring down a centrist government?
The UK government is perfectly stable, the comparison with the situation in France isn't obvious to me.
no politicians in France have had the balls to say no
So the "massive budget deficit" in France which you speak of was caused by centrist governments, again I fail to see the similarities with the UK. The current UK government has only been in power for 5 months, and it's actually saying no to quite a few things!
The only similarity that I can see between France and the UK currently is that both have governments which appear to be a bit unpopular with voters, but that comparison could be made with plenty of other countries.
Btw unlike France I don't recall any UK government ever describing themselves as "centrist".
I heard some daft far-left French politician on R4 earlier. Bleating on about 'centrist this, centrist that'. She soon shut up when she was asked who she would prefer as president - Macron or Le Pen. It took me right back to old Jezza Corbyn and Brexit.
Socialists enabling fascists to score a (pyrrhic) point. Superb.
Plus ça change, as they might say over there.
Face, meet palm.
heard some daft far-left French politician on R4 earlier. Bleating on about ‘centrist this, centrist that’. She soon shut up when she was asked who she would prefer as president – Macron or Le Pen. It took me right back to old Jezza Corbyn and Brexit.
Socialists enabling fascists to score a (pyrrhic) point. Superb.
Plus ça change, as they might say over there.
Face, meet palm.
Centrists like being alarmist about how 'this election might be the last election ever so vote for us even though we're going to continue doing the same things that are causing people to find their incomes and wealth being eroded which is causing the continuing rise of the far right.'
Le Pen (or someone even worse than her) is coming. Voting for centrists is not going to change that. In fact, it's going to make it more likely.
Or are the centrists going to magically find some way to stop being reliant on billionaires and start redistributing wealth?
Well it's been a while since anyone has suggested that as leader of the Labour Party Corbyn was "far-left", so I guess this thread is as good as any for a timely reminder.
Edit: And of course blaming Corbyn for Brexit, whilst conveniently leaving out the awkward fact that a second referendum was a manifesto commitment of his and one which undoubtedly cost Labour votes. And that he made an arch-remainer Shadow Brexit Secretary.
Le Pen (or someone even worse than her) is coming. Voting for centrists is not going to change that. In fact, it’s going to make it more likely.
Oh well, that's alright, then.
... trying to sort the massive budget deficit France is running
When people are hungry, earning a living is extra stressful, disposable income does not extend very far, living becomes rather difficult.
When the people are running low on their stamina and with a govt making fairy tale promises, that' when the govt get a reality kick in their backside.
No amount of policies will turn things around when energy cost is high and where people just don't have enough to spend.
More Govts will fall.
(In the UK Labour got one term to prove themselves and if they cannot handle this, I am afraid they will only be a one term govt and perhaps a new political party will win in the next election. People want change drastically. Stamina is low)
When people are hungry, earning a living is extra stressful, disposable income does not extend very far, living becomes rather difficult.
In reality, though, 95%+ of the electorate of France, Britain, Germany etc are not hungry on a regular basis.
For 'hungry' read 'accustomed to an increasingly unjustified standard of living and worried about losing a single iota of it'. In a global context, the electorates of western Europe or the US flirting with fascism is utterly disgusting.
But that's the moral of the tale of not spoiling children, isn't it?
In reality, though, 95%+ of the electorate of France, Britain, Germany etc are not hungry on a regular basis.
Not hungry as in starving but the increasingly finding it challenging to sustain the living (lifestyle and standard) their desire.
The opportunity of flirting with fascism is not something just happened overnight but the accumulated failure of past govts that presented or created such opportunity.
It does not help when the govts become complacent in their governing by assuming people to have or continue to make limited choice of choosing the mainstream parties. Well, that assumption has definitely been put to test now the incumbent govt will just have to find out the hard way.
For ‘hungry’ read ‘accustomed to an increasingly unjustified standard of living and worried about losing a single iota of it’.
good luck with this as an electoral policy tho!
For ‘hungry’ read ‘accustomed to an increasingly unjustified standard of living and worried about losing a single iota of it’. In a global context, the electorates of western Europe or the US flirting with fascism is utterly disgusting
Well, yes, if we compare ourselves people living in the 12th century then of course no one has anything to complain about.
However, we don't live in the 12th century. We live in one of the periods of time where society's wealth is flowing towards the few at an ever increasing rate and people are permanently worried about how they can afford to pay rent, buy food, and pay for electricity.
The cost of these vastly outstrip any discretionary spending and that is why it's possible to apparently be able to afford 'luxuries' but still have significant fears over being able to afford the basics. So yes, people can afford TVs because a TV is very likely to be less than a month's rent.
So yes, not as many people are dying of malnutrition (even though malnutrition is on the rise) but that is not evidence that all is well with the world.
So yes,
not as manybarely any people in developed western Europe or the US are dying of malnutrition (even though malnutrition is on the rise) but that is not evidence that all is well with the world.
It certainly isn't evidence that all is well in 'the world'. But bloated 'westerners' have less to gripe about than 80%+ of the rest. Immediately jumping to fascism because they might have to cut back to 3 takeaways a week from 4 strikes me as a symptom of being spoiled rotten. In a global context, then, I maintain that it is disgusting.
It doesn't help with doing anything about it, mind.
One irony that should (but won't) register with our homegrown fascists in the UK is that, should a Le Pen become president of France, you can expect small boat crossings to go through the roof. Post-colonial nationalism is just that - export as many problems over your borders as possible. Zero wider strategy.
good luck with this as an electoral policy tho!
Well you would hope that the average French, British, German, American etc voter would have the good grace, education and worldview to know that, by comparison, theirs is a gilded existence.
But, nah. Blame it on 'abroad'. That's much easier and neater.
How much of the debt/deficit is due to the generous French social contract, eg pensions, redundancy pay, etc.?
Well you would hope that the average French, British, German, American etc voter would have the good grace, education and worldview to know that, by comparison, theirs is a gilded existence.
But again, the point shouldn't be to say, 'people in the world have it worse off than you' so you have to vote for the centrists. It should be to acknowledge that everyone is getting poorer and it's not because the rest of the world is becoming richer. It's because a very small number of people are siphoning off the wealth of the world. So yes, some people in the world have it worse. Doesn't mean it's OK that billionaires and oligarchs are stealing your wealth (not to mention the wealth of the people in the world who have it worse off).
Voting for centrists is going to do nothing to stem the flow of wealth and power to the few. Centrists are totally reliant on these same billionaires and oligarchs to get elected.
And, of course, neo-fascists are also reliant on different billionaires and oligarchs to get elected (and sometimes it's even the same billionaires and oligarchs). The choice should not be between enriching oligarchs with a 'woke*' government or a neo-fascist government.
*and I still reckon the wokeness of centrist governments is largely performative
If you take the view that either way it is billionaires and oligarchs pulling the strings, then I'd rather have the ones that respect moderation and generally accepted societal norms than those that don't.
Even if that respect is purely borne of their own self interest.
For ‘hungry’ read ‘accustomed to an increasingly unjustified standard of living and worried about losing a single iota of it’. In a global context, the electorates of western Europe or the US flirting with fascism is utterly disgusting.
FFS you really have no idea do you? There are millions of people in the 'rich' west who are homeless, hungry or scraping a living to feed their families and keep a roof over their heads working insecure and very poorly paying jobs. There are also hundreds of millions of people in the middle (like most of us on this forum) who are seeing their incomes, savings and standard of living eroded while being required to work more whilst the public services they rely on are allowed to crumble and decay. And this is all happening with the backdrop of a gilded 1% who live like kings, lording it over everyone else while they jet around the world between their multiple luxury homes, yachts and whatever else. And that same 1% tell everyone else that they are not the problem, and instead it's foreigners and scroungers. That's why people are flirting with populist parties.
Meanwhile, in France... a right wing party is trying to roll back public services, using migrants as an excuse to do so, and is blocking any attempts to make business pay a bit more to keep services available to the poor who need them.
If you take the view that either way it is billionaires and oligarchs pulling the strings, then I’d rather have the ones that respect moderation and generally accepted societal norms than those that don’t.
It's not either or. You are getting both.
It's really quite spectacular. As more and more wealth is siphoned off support for the neo-fascists grows. This causes the centrists to move further right.
No matter who wins more and more wealth is siphoned off and the far right continue to move further right and the centre dutifully follows them.
Voting for centrists is voting to continue this cycle.
If you take the view that either way it is billionaires and oligarchs pulling the strings, then I’d rather have the ones that respect moderation and generally accepted societal norms than those that don’t.
There's nothing moderate or normal about accumulating wealth which you couldn't spend in hundreds of lifetimes let alone a single one. Billionaires are by definition extremists. Their lives are so far beyond what the vast majority think is normal or acceptable that they should be seen as criminals, not leaders, and the only reason they get away with it is because they have manipulated and corrupted the political system to ensure their wealth and power is never threatened.
So it's OK to vote for fascists, then?
Alright, I'm a white British, middle aged, middle class male. You don't really get more average than me.
I'm going to vote Reform next time around. Thanks for the encouragement.
So it’s OK to vote for fascists, then?
Nope, it's not OK to vote for fascists.
It's also not OK to vote for centrists and they will continue to allow wealth to be siphoned to billionaires, erode public services, and lead to the perfect conditions for fascism to thrive.
Vote for someone else.
Vote for someone else.
Nah. I'm going to vote Reform.
Might as well join the crowd punching down and blaming everyone else. It makes things much simpler, ta.
So it’s OK to vote for fascists, then?
Of course it isn't, but you can't blame the voters for doing so. Given the choice of more of the same or something different, even if there is a strong suspicion that the new thing won't be any better, people will vote for the latter. Brexit proved that, Johnson proved that, Trump proved that, and very soon Farage will be proving it. The only way to stop people voting for populists is for centrist parties to address their concerns and start reversing the trend of the rich getting ever richer while everyone else gets poorer.
It's a pattern we've seen time and again throughout history, and this is just the latest cycle..
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/nov/30/the-deep-historical-forces-that-explain-trumps-win
Of course it isn’t, but you can’t blame the voters for doing so.
Cool.
I'm a voter.
I'll vote Reform next time.
You can't blame me, after all. Right?
Might as well join the crowd punching down and blaming everyone else. It makes things much simpler, ta.
Well we had a perfect opportunity as a country to punch upwards in 2017 and 2019. The centrists in the labour party and UK establisment ensured that didn't happen though, and now we are where are.
I’ll vote Reform next time.
You can’t blame me, after all. Right?
Yawn.
If you support Reform by all means vote for them. If you're concerned about the rise of fascism then maybe have a think if supporting the same tired old policies of the centrist status quo will prevent that or make it worse?
Alright, I’m a white British, middle aged, middle class male. You don’t really get more average than me.
That sounds more "massively privileged" than "average". I'm the same demographic btw.
That sounds more “massively privileged” than “average”. I’m the same demographic btw.
We established above that it is still fine to vote fascist without blame - even if you're not on the breadline yourself.
So, as (apparently) I've nothing to lose, I'm just going to take the lazy option. It'll free up my mind to basically ignore nuance in politics. Much more simple to blame someone else and punch down.
Reform it is for me.
So, as (apparently) I’ve nothing to lose, I’m just going to take the lazy option. It’ll free up my mind to basically ignore nuance in politics. Much more simple to blame someone else and punch down.
Sounds to me like you're very easily persuaded by that argument. I wonder why that is?
Reform it is for me.
You seem to have given up on this discussion and are throwing some sort of performative hissy fit.
If you don't want to discuss this couldn't you just have a flounce and leave the thread instead?
Sounds to me like you’re very easily persuaded by that argument. I wonder why that is?
Don't know. But you're not allowed to judge me, remember? So I'd stop wondering.
If you don’t want to discuss this couldn’t you just have a flounce and leave the thread instead?
Why? We're in an interesting position now. Apparently voters can't be blamed for voting Reform (for example). All except me - now I say I am going to vote Reform - it seems I must be a closet bigot of some kind (as alluded to by dazh for the avoidance of doubt).
Why?
Because now you're running around like a ten year old shouting, 'I'm going to vote Reform, nah nah nah!'
It's not really great for the discussion, to be honest.
It’s not really great for the discussion, to be honest.
It never is. Apparently.
But I'm not going to worry my pretty little head about it.
I've had an epiphany thanks to this thread. I'll tootle off now.
That's probably enough of a pile by now isnt it?
Vote for someone else.
Well, that's the problem, people often dont want to, and the alternatives to the right and centre need to take responsibility for that failing and address it. Even if the deck is stacked against them they need to deal with that unfortunate **** sandwich.
Voter behaviour is quite curious, as the electorate will, repeatedly vote against their own interests. Or, at least, against what someone might perceive as their own interests. Thinking "if I just explain it again they'll come round" isnt enough.
The only way to stop people voting for populists is for centrist parties to address their concerns and start reversing the trend of the rich getting ever richer while everyone else gets poorer.
Category error. I don't disagree that wealth needs to be moved from the rich to the poor, I doubt policies that do that will be popular overall though with the folks that are now moving thier support to the likes of Reform, you only have to look at Starmer's polling after Reeves change in inheritance tax for farmers for evidence - and it certainly won't impact the popularity of the populist parties.
A good percentage of Reform's support now comes from younger lower-middle class Barrett home, call centre (type jobs) workers, these folks are small c conservatives. They've given up on the Tory's and are lending their support to Farage - Men in particular on a spectrum from Andrew Tate-a-like misogyny SM Followers (large overlap with Reform support) to "Bit of Lad, straight-talking" former Tory support for Farage - and activity resist or don't vote for policies that put money in the pockets of the poorer of society who they traditionally see as lazy and ****less. 40 years ago, these were the voters that put and kept Thatcher in power.
This is the right wing talking to itself in Western Society about why their policies of the last 20 years haven't had the 'trickle-down' they expected and have largely failed, to expect the left to be the 'answer' to their problems somewhat misses the point. You only have to listen to the rhetoric of the American right, and Alt-Right, the only role for the left is pantomime villain.
Well, that’s the problem, people often dont want to, and the alternatives to the right and centre need to take responsibility for that failing and address it.
Not really. People need to realise that voting for centrists is just fueling the rise of the far right and stop doing it. Currently the centrist's only pitch is, 'If you don't vote for us the fascists will win.'
We saw it in the UK election. We saw it in the US election. And now we're seeing it in France.
What needs to happen is clear. The wealth pump needs to be reversed and wealth and income inequality has to be reduced. Vote for any party that says it's going to do this.
Even if their plan is batshit crazy and unworkable, if enough people vote for it the centrists will realise that people are voting for redistribution and will follow the votes.
Not really. People need to realise that voting for centrists is just fueling the rise of the far right and stop doing it. Currently the centrist’s only pitch is, ‘If you don’t vote for us the fascists will win.’
Sorry, are you saying those offering alternatives to the centre and right have no responsibility for getting their case across in a way that affects changing attitudes?
We established above that it is still fine to vote fascist without blame – even if you’re not on the breadline yourself.
So, as (apparently) I’ve nothing to lose, I’m just going to take the lazy option. It’ll free up my mind to basically ignore nuance in politics. Much more simple to blame someone else and punch down.
Reform it is for me.
This drivel suggests that you don't need any help freeing up your mind.
Sorry, are you saying those offering alternatives to the centre and right have no responsibility for getting their case across in a way that affects changing attitudes?
The problem is that if you don't present policies that result in the obscenely wealthy getting even wealthier then the mainstream news outlets (that just happen to be owned by billionaires) will ridicule you. Bot farms will flood social media with 'people' who will ridicule you.
How exactly do you suggest alternatives are presented in such a way that the message is delivered without interference of legacy and new media?
I think this is one of those times it's up to people to decide they've had enough and start voting for the people who literally every outlet is telling them not to vote for.
Bit judgemental, that.
Dazh – rebuke ransos immediately for calling someone who is going to vote Reform thick. It simply won’t do.
I thought you said you were done with your wee temper tantrum and were going to go and play somewhere else.
Since you're here, do you actually have any arguments against those we've put forward? Specifically, that voting for centrists is going to result in even more people voting for neo-fascists in the long term as public money and taxes are siphoned off into the pockets of the oligarchs and billionaires?
That's what the rest of us are trying to talk about while you dance around saying, 'I'm voting Reform now, hahahaha!'
How exactly do you suggest alternatives are presented in such a way that the message is delivered without interference of legacy and new media?
This is the bit I'm seeing as needing taking responsibility for dealing with. You can't rely on people to just "get it", if ownership of dealing with the stacked deck isnt taken. You're not going to shift anyone to something most do not know exists, or believe is credible.
I thought you said you were done with your wee temper tantrum and were going to go and play somewhere else.
If people stop taking the opportunity to bite back then I'll let it drop. But there's a coterie of posters on here who simply cannot help themselves in needing to have the last word.
Your move.
Dazh – rebuke ransos immediately for calling someone who is going to vote Reform thick.
Honestly please stop with the temper tantrum. This started because you suggested that people who vote for fascists because they are pissed off with the status quo should instead thank their lucky stars they live in such a wonderful country where they live amazingly priveleged lives. Well guess what, millions of people are not that lucky and live a life of unrelenting struggle, misery and stress, and there are many more who can see that their lives are getting much harder and no one is interested in helping them. They couldn't give a flying f*** about offending your liberal sensibilities by voting for someone like Trump, Farage or Le Pen because they know the current economic and political system doesn't serve them and they just want something/anything to change.
I said I'd stop if you lot would.
I still will.
Can you?
I said I’d stop if you lot would
No you didn't. You said:
I’ll tootle off now.
If people stop taking the opportunity to bite back then I’ll let it drop.
13 minutes ago
Honestly please stop with the temper tantrum.
9 minutes ago
I still will stop. I'm no longer even trying to make a point. It has been done.
OK?
I said I’d stop if you lot would.
Carry on as much as you like. You can either respond to the points made or throw your dummy out the pram because someone disagrees with you, it doesn't make a lot of difference to me. You might want to consider though that one of the main reasons Trump won in the US and the likes of Le Pen and others are doing so well in Europe is because people are generally sick of being lectured by comfortably off middle class liberals who tell them what they should think and do.
Carry on as much as you like. You can either respond to the points made or throw your dummy out the pram because someone disagrees with you, it doesn’t make a lot of difference to me.
Or me.
Well, my point is made. Apparently voters cannot be blamed for turning to parties like Reform. Your words not mine.
But, apparently I can be blamed for saying I will henceforth be voting Reform. Hence the mini pile-on.
And you have the gall to say I am the one doing the lecturing. How amusing.
Well, my point is made
Well yes, but not in the way you intended.
Well yes, but not in the way you intended.
How very witty.
Must remember that retort.
How very witty.
Must remember that retort.
I see you've still not tootled off. What other things have you said here that aren't true, I wonder?
But, apparently I can be blamed for saying I will henceforth be voting Reform.
I couldn't care less if you vote for Reform. But doing so out of spite because someone disagreed with you on an internet forum comes across as a bit of a childish and stupid thing to do. I mean I know you won't actually be voting for Reform, which makes your little performative protest all the more ridiculous.
Here's an idea, how about you address the point about whether centrist politicians and parties in the west should be implementing policies which redistribute wealth and tax the rich more to provide better public services? Do you not think this is not only a good thing to do but also a fundamental prerequisite to preventing fascist parties from winning power?
I see you’ve still not tootled off. What other things have you said here that aren’t true, I wonder?
You just cannot let anything go without a sly aside, can you?
That's a power and control thing, BTW.
To sum up
"the left" had the biggest share of the vote in the election.
Macron ignored that and installed a right wing prime minister
They then pushed through a right wing budget against the wishes of parliament
The results of that were always going to be a no confidence vote, Macron and Barnier knew that, but decided they would prefer a Le Pen government than co-operating with "the left".
The centrists are unwilling to take responsibility for their actions and are trying to blame "the left" for not begging to be stabbed in the back again.
You just cannot let anything go without a sly aside, can you?
Well, let's see:
1. Claimed you were leaving yet keep coming back.
2. Claimed that your position of massive privilege is "average".
3. Claimed that you're voting for Reform.
Statements one and two are demonstrably false so I'm wondering if I can trust other things you say.
That’s a power and control thing, BTW.
A pathological one, it would seem.
A gallic shrug is in order here - with a nod the thread title.
A pathological one, it would seem.
A gallic shrug is in order here – with a nod the thread title.
I suppose that's easier than addressing your falsehoods.
Definitely pathological.
Definitely pathological.
QED.
[Deleted]
Actually no. C'est tout.
To sum up
I'd add to that summary with, according to Le Monde...
and the far right held the key to the government's survival
Well, putting aside my opinion of decadent 'western' electorates flirting with fascism at the slightest sign of needing to give up a part of the lifestyle to which they have become accustomed...
It seems to me that Macron has done a 'Cameron 2015' in a France 2024 way. He felt he had to roll the dice to forestall something, his chutzpah has ended with him having to give an inch to the far right and his arrogance has led him to believe it would be 'enough'. As if Barnier was ever going to be enough for Le Pen!
In doing so, he has spurned the 'far-ish' left. Now Le Pen will pull the pin like she was always going to. The left won't bail out Macron because he's just shat on them, and a stitch up between them and Macron will probably finish them in thr eyes of many of their voters.
It's a colossal ****ing mess. A supposed cool operator hasn't done enough for enough people, believing his being 'right' is largely good enough on its own. So France may well have its little experiment with right-wing extremism, the ramifications could be big and unpredictable.
Thinking of France as a socialist-leaning country is outdated. It harks back to the 60s/70s and reflects the notion that the supposed sharing of wealth was more palatable at that time to the majority because they perceived that sharing to be with people that looked like them. Things have changed since then and poisonous elements have exploited those changes.
It seems to me that Macron has done a ‘Cameron 2015’ in a France 2024 way.
I was going to make the same comparison. Probably also going to take at least 10 years to begin to clean up the fallout as well.
The problem “the left” have is they include LFI, who don’t want a working government unless they lead it, they’re hoping to benefit from the chaos in future elections… where as RN are probably going be the main beneficiaries in the short term.
Well it seems like moderation is going out of fashion in lots of places. To my mind, that can only be a bad thing. Maybe 'the left' will benefit long-term, but given the nasty underbelly to post-peak-stuff lifestyle politics in many developed nations, I think the allure of division and punching down is simply easier to give in to. But we're drifting back to my opinion of well-off electorates voting for fascists again...
‘western’ electorates flirting with fascism at the slightest sign of needing to give up a part of the lifestyle to which they have become accustomed…
Is that what you genuinely believe is driving voters away from mainstream political parties...... nothing more than the "slightest" sign ?
You don't think that the neoliberal experiment in Europe and the United States is actually in a crisis? All that is needed are "slight" adjustments?
Attitudes like that must be music to the ears of the far-right.
And btw it is centrists parties who have been "flirting with fascism". Which is precisely why electorates have been looking rightward rather than leftward. When centrist parties and government are validating far-right lies about immigration which direction do you expect voters to go?
It is a phenomenon which has been repeatedly seen throughout Europe. When mainstream political parties adopt the language of the far-right in a desperate attempt to stem the hemorrhaging of votes to them it is ALWAYS the far-right who benefits the most.
Is that what you genuinely believe is driving voters away from mainstream political parties…… nothing more than the “slightest” sign ?
Yes. In a global context, it is.
It is the same reason why, ultimately, mankind will dig up and burn every last molecule of fossil fuel in the end. It is simply too much effort not to.
But we’re drifting back to my opinion of well-off electorates voting for fascists again…
I paid a visit to the office in Manchester this week and witnessed first hand the well-off electorate sleeping in doorways and tents pitched in the middle of the street. They looked extremely grateful that they were so lucky to live in a rich country with a sensible moderate government. :-/
And it is interesting that you picked up on that particular part of my post - given that you issued a mild bollocking for thread derailment on that exact theme.
If you want to police threads, then you can't do the exact thing you profess to want to stop.