Old climbing gear

I doubt the scouts would accept due to the associated paperwork.
Sorry can't think of other options, i changed all the fabric stuff in my head recently but am keeping it

I use my old tapes and krabs etc for my canoe rescue kit, so find a local paddler!

Any outdoor centre or organisation would not take on metalwork without purchase and use history - we used to log all usage, and any braided metalwork was chucked at inspection or 10 yeas, solid metalwork on inspection.

Thanks. You've confirmed my thoughts - it’s only really good as material for a sculpture!

No-one is going to take the metal gear because the provenance is unknown. I've got a whole bag full of krabs, hexes, cams etc which is only good for staring at wistfully.

Make it into a nice decorative piece...

I would never buy used climbing gear for reasons as others have said above, and any organisation would be utterly mad to do so if only because their insurance would have kittens.

The best advice I can give you is to start climbing again. 😀

@cougar 's 2nd para is the correct answer in my view

The best advice I can give you is to start climbing again.

C+1....?

Hmm that's a point. Is it ok to use your own ropes and hardware after 10, maybe 15 years of cool/dark/dry bagged storage? Unlikely that I will now but I had wondered.

hmmm, I don't have any ropes but I do have a harness / crab / belay device that are now at least 15 years old and haven't been used for about 10. Was considering resuming my climbing at some point, how badly with they have degraded in a dark cupboard?

From a Scout Leader perspective it can't be accepted. We took over the group after it folded and had to bin a load of stuff because we didn't know where it came from.

Hmm that’s a point. Is it ok to use your own ropes and hardware after 10, maybe 15 years of cool/dark/dry bagged storage? Unlikely that I will now but I had wondered.

Anecdotally and in no way actual advice,

I started climbing with a vengeance thirty years ago. Today I have a lot of elderly gear, much of which is barely used. When I took it back up a couple of years ago after a hiatus I ditched the rope but kept the rest.

I really should think about replacing my harness but... IDK, it's like an old pair of shoes, it's early 90s vintage webbing but it's so comfy. I've worn new ones and it's just not the same.

If you still have the ropes and slings I'll have them. They'll be used for dog restraints as our garden isn't dog proof so he has to be on a long rope to stop him running in the road. His existing rope is now more knots than rope. Happy to make a charity donation to a charity of your choice.

I'm 20 mins north of Perth so can collect.

Thanks

Hmm that’s a point. Is it ok to use your own ropes and hardware after 10, maybe 15 years of cool/dark/dry bagged storage? Unlikely that I will now but I had wondered.

It is all a risk judgement.

There used to be a lot of fear around gear, particularly if it was out in UV/sunlight, and particularly about age. I cannot find the link, but some of this has melted a little. The general gist now is much more around store in a dark and dry place, do and inspection properly of your gear and make a judgement....

Clearly used and with signs of wear gear needs yeeting into the bin.

FWIW, I do know of someone who was killed when their 15 year old harness failed - however they had tied only into the belay loop, which was also heavily worn.

And so - ignore my opinion which is out of date and read the proper view:

BMC: https://www.thebmc.co.uk/Handlers/DownloadHandler.ashx?id=77

Some research: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/224119657_Proper_care_maintenance_and_inspection_of_climbing_ropes_to_reduce_degradation_and_help_determine_when_to_retire_them

(more is available)

but I do have a harness / crab / belay device that are now at least 15 years old and haven’t been used for about 10.

Chances are it's OK, unless there are obvious abrasions/fraying on the webbing/belay loop or signs of fatigue on the buckles. But degradation is a funny, and invisible thing. You won't know until you take a nice factor 2 fall on it, I guess, which would always be the nagging thought at the back of my mind.

I'd have no qualms about using the crab/belay device.

My job is in this area (Technical PPE Textile type stuff). If the kit has been stored well then it'll probably be fine. I've tested ropes used for caving that have spent over 20 years stored in a loft and then still fully meet the requirments of EN 1891. This stuff lasts a long time. However, the regulations say it needs a life so many manufactures give 10 years. Not because after this time it won't still work but because it's a life that most people are happy with and it neatly matches the PPE regulation's requirment to keep records for 10 years.

Persionally, I still use 20+ year old metalwork. Harness and ropes over 10 years are for top roping only, but I still use them. I do know how they've been stored and used though. I 100% agree with all the above comments about 2nd hand gear with unknown history.

^ good links, thanks Matt - useful to read what they call regular use for a 3 year rope lifespan.

Ropes get retired after a couple of years in our household. By that time they have done so many hours of climbs and as most are performance type ropes they are not designed to last (under 9mm). They are either turned into dog leads, donated to people who make dog leads or they end up as long ropes to tether the dogs to in the garden. Its not vanity or waste, we genuinely wear them out. When i can be bothered a i can knock up a pretty good monkeys fist toy for the dogs too.

Other stuff like slings, left over rope and harnesses are integrated into gym equipment for offsett pull ups, weighted pullups etc.

We dont climb outside very much and my daughter is supported by Petzl which we are so grateful for and try not to take the piss. They did give some dirty looks at a recent event where my daughter pulled a set of DMM quickdraws out of her bag (She loves the colour) and was told by a uk climbing legend that she MUST remind him to send her a full set of Petzl quickdraws.

thanks for the replies, based on the above I'm happy to go with my original instinct that my gear is perfectly fine for my own use - I've always looked after my gear, I usually climb indoors, I usually top-rope and if I do lead I'm a limpet and will do everything I can to avoid a fall. It'll be fine for that kind of usage and even for the occasional trip out, if I ever do pull my finger out and resume

they had tied only into the belay loop, which was also heavily worn.

I got chastised for this at a climbing wall a little while ago. I can tie a figure of 8 through a screwgate in probably under three seconds but they wanted it threading through everything. Their gaff their rules, but if a belay loop is safe to belay from then it's safe to climb on, surely. "Heavily worn" is the problem here.

my daughter is supported by Petzl

That got a Spock Eyebrow. Who is she? Does she have a YouTube channel or anything?

Good female climbers are an art form, blokes can be kinda thrutchy but the women are like a waterfall in reverse. "You climb like a girl" is the highest compliment I could receive as a climber. (I don't climb like a girl, I climb like Bambi on ice.)

Yeah, start climbing again, but re-sling the friends, quickdraws, hexes etc. Rope - see above from harryturtle. In a similar situation I bought a new rope and kept my old harness, but now a few more years down the line I think i will replace the harness. It looks visibly worn now, which will be a little bit gutting as it's comfy, but mostly because I won it in a SIBL comp from BITD.. (yeah, yeah, humble brag etc,..., but in these days of middle-aged-mediocrity I remember when i did actually do some sporting stuff ok..ish).

In the light of advice above I think I shall retire my harness 1976 whillans sit harness (for those of a certain vintage) maybe reuse some bits into camping gear

if a belay loop is safe to belay from then it’s safe to climb on, surely

True. Would have thought the shock load at the leader end of a fall is higher though, rope friction through the protection points etc? If the loop's not ok that way if you were belaying someone who'd run out most of a rope length you might use more than the belay loop just to be sure? Dunno, I never climbed anything or with anyone that bold.

whillans sit harness

Should be carefully cut up, then nuked from orbit to be sure that no-one else is inadvertantly subjected to the immense discomfort these are designed to inflict on the wearer.

In the light of advice above I think I shall retire my harness 1976 whillans sit harness

Is it too late for your gonads, though?

I got chastised for this at a climbing wall a little while ago. I can tie a figure of 8 through a screwgate in probably under three seconds but they wanted it threading through everything. Their gaff their rules, but if a belay loop is safe to belay from then it’s safe to climb on, surely

From memory (SPA training years and years ago) the belay loop is more prone to getting worn through by rope moving against it. The belay krab is smooth (and largely static under load) so doesn’t pose the same problem. Not sure how big the change in risk is, but tying through the harness as designed is a pretty low-cost action.

if a belay loop is safe to belay from then it’s safe to climb on, surely

Probably, but the forces experienced by a belayer during a fall are significantly lower than those experienced by the falling climber.

https://www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/Forces-at-work-in-a-real-fall#

Using the waist belt in addition to the belay loop is good practice because it introduces another point of safety in the unlikely but possible scenario that the belay loop were to fail.

It's not that inconvenient to tie in through the waist belt as well. The wall probably has approved tie-in methods to comply with insurance stipulations. I think quite a few don't like bowlines for this reason.

Nice comments Cougar. She has an insta account. lily.climbs

Would have thought the shock load at the leader end of a fall is higher though, rope friction through the protection points etc?

I wondered that when I posted. I've no idea. It's plausible I guess?

the belay loop is more prone to getting worn through by rope moving against it.

All the more reason to use a screwgate rather than tie in directly then.

I'm a bit confused about this TBH. Tied in directly there's not a lot of rope movement as a climber other than creating the initial knot which isn't under load. I'm struggling to think how you'd tie in directly when belaying. How are you rigging for friction to be a potential issue?

In the light of advice above I think I shall retire my harness 1976 whillans sit harness

That harness certainly divides opinion, and often other things.

@Cougar - a belay loop used for belaying is usually subject to lower forces due to reductions through rope stretch and friction. General good practice is to tie in alongside the belay loop, as usually this means you are tying into two parts of of the harness, and so both need to fail for 'ultimate' failure to occur, and finally many harnesses are designed that way with wear markers on.

It can be useful on multipitch climbing or when belaying with anchor at times to create a second loop and not be 'part of the system'.

All splitting hairs and adding a few percent in win under an extreme situation though.

See: https://www.petzl.com/INT/en/Sport/Belay-loop-and-tie-in-points--where-do-I-attach-my-lanyard--my-belay-device-and-my-rope-?ActivityName=Rock-climbing#:~:text=Repeated%20falls%20on%20the%20belay,premature%20wear%20of%20the%20harness.

I went to the new Big Depot the opening weekend. I was asked to prove i can tie figure 8. Now i have spent more hours belaying indoors than most. I dont climb so i enter a wall and belay for 3 hours straight most times and it can be 2-3 sessions a week. For the last 8 years. But i dont ever tie a figure 8 unless a wall asks me too. My daughter ties them and i check em. I can spot a poorly tied fig 8 from 100yds away.

So picture me stood there at bottom of wall, "make a head, strangle it, poke him in the eye"......What a knob i looked.

Glad to see this thread morph into a ‘can I use my old gear?’

(plans trip to Windgather)

I think quite a few don’t like bowlines for this reason.

Aside from none other than Chris Bonnington telling a mate of mine many many years ago that he was going to die, I don't think I've ever known anyone tie in with a bowline.

@matt_outandabout Nicely, thank you.

Chris Bonington once told my wife off for not wearing a helmet on a North Wales multipitch. Didn't say anything to me about it, though.

Not seen anyone use it for years. I think the main advantage was that you could theoretically tie it with one hand?

There is good use for old climbing gear, like working on my house (roof work), as towing rope, hanging stuff in the garage etc. However, it is very important to mark the gear properly if you are using it past safe use dates.

I don't think the ropes and slings degrade as badly as fast as we were told in the 90s but I will not use old ropes, slings and harnessess for climbing, especially if any other people are involved.

There is Youtube channel called https://www.youtube.com/@HowNOT2 where they test new and old gear, some the sketchy gear is surprisingly robust.

I really should think about replacing my harness but… IDK, it’s like an old pair of shoes, it’s early 90s vintage webbing but it’s so comfy. I’ve worn new ones and it’s just not the same.

I have my bright pink 1994 Petzl harness...  I don't worry about it failing and killing me now... because in order to fit in it now I'd need some surgery!

If you want to get rid of old kit - this guy: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQvq-0fss4lNrmIz7gcPLtQ makes weird youtube content testing and trashing climbing kit.  Probably not cheap to post it to him but he's always keen for either odd stuff or partially damaged stuff, or probably just really old stuff that he dyno tests to destruction to see how many different ways climbers can find to die!

How are you rigging for friction to be a potential issue?

A single carabiner:

https://roperescuetraining.com/physics_friction.php

In the light of advice above I think I shall retire my harness 1976 whillans sit harness

That harness certainly divides opinion, and often other things.
Some near misses but 3 kids show all in good order!
Also I seem to remember having to tie in using a bowline? Or am I dreaming that bit single handed bowline was always a good challenge in scouts one handed activities still a challenge 😉

 

Not seen anyone use it for years. I think the main advantage was that you could theoretically tie it with one hand?

You can (though I can't, I'm crap). You can similarly undo it if it isn't under load, which presents a potential issue for climbers. 😁

I have my bright pink 1994 Petzl harness…

Mine is similarly subtle. It's nominally purple.

How are you rigging for friction to be a potential issue?

A single carabiner:

Apologies, let me rephrase.

How are you rigging for friction on the harness to be a potential issue?

How are you rigging for friction on the harness to be a potential issue?

Ah, I get you. I thought you were speaking of friction losses in a system when someone falls.

Having been dropped once from the top of a wall, I can say that not only was my wife's hand nicely burnt but so was her leg loop and leggings...

Ah, bowlines. My dad tied in on a bowline and tied me on one my first climbs in the 70s. Observatory Ridge on the Ben and Recess Route on the Cobbler. But I wasn't going to be falling any distance on to it and my dad could have soloed those routes.

But in hindsight my most impressive memory for old style ropes was seeing him do a vertical classic abseil 80 feet down a tree after putting up a rope swing for my pals an I.

Using the waist belt in addition to the belay loop is good practice because it introduces another point of safety in the unlikely but possible scenario that the belay loop were to fail.

I'm sure you didn't mean to type that but just in case .... Don't do this. It will result in most of your weight being borne on your waist loop, ie pulling up on your rib cage.

All the more reason to use a screwgate rather than tie in directly then.

Again, jezus no.

General good practice is to tie in alongside the belay loop,

Yes. Agreed.
( just to be 100% clear, making sure you loop through the leg loop strap as well as the waist belt 🙂

A father/son team had an incident on the opening weekend at Big Depot. It wasnt reported because it never came to anything due to the fact it is basically surrounded by bouldering standard matting.

Experienced enough looking father took a fall from 2/3rd 15m walls. Son (16-19) didnt have brake rope tight and it slipped his grasp. Father fell from about 10m with son trying to grasp the rope. Father landed incredibly well and son stood there looking at his burnt hands.

I looked, my daughter looked and a few older climbers commented but basically everyone just carried on as normal. Holy shit that could have been so much worse but for the matting and the fathers landing technique. Very impressive

OP: If you've any rocks on cord, I'll take them.

@Cougar. Avoid using a Krab, as you are just adding another potential failure point into the system. Unlikely I know, but leading outdoors where you might be thrutching and groveling there is a very small chance the gate could open. There will be the obvious exception when using an auto-belay - if your local wall has them.

+ potential 3 way loading

Some 'mercans do use crabs when leading big walls, but would generally use 2 together to minimise the risk.

I sold all my old gear a couple of years back on ebay, clearly stated its was well used

Son (16-19) didnt have brake rope tight and it slipped his grasp.

Modern belay devices (and thinner ropes) seem to introduce much more opportunity for user error. You used to have to make a significant effort to drop someone.

Surprised the Depot Staff wouldn't have picked up on someone being introduced to the matting from 10m.

I got chastised for this at a climbing wall a little while ago. I can tie a figure of 8 through a screwgate in probably under three seconds but they wanted it threading through everything. Their gaff their rules, but if a belay loop is safe to belay from then it’s safe to climb on, surely. “Heavily worn” is the problem here.

It's not that it's their rules, it's what's best practice. Yes, in a top roping situation you are not going to snap a belay loop but most harnesses are designed to tie in through waist belt and leg loops so that's how you should do it, just get into the habit of doing it the right way.

There is also a slightly greater risk of inverting if you tie in via the belay loop on some harnesses. Again, unlikely to cause massive problems indoors but why not just use the kit the way it's designed and avoid all that?

Harnesses designed to tie in through waist belt and leg loops usually have reinforcement on these but lack similar reinforcement on the belay loop. If you want to read a sobering tale of belay loop failure check out what happened to Todd Skinner.

As for clipping in with a carabiner that's a whole other can of worms. Just gonnae no.

Modern belay devices (and thinner ropes) seem to introduce much more opportunity for user error. You used to have to make a significant effort to drop someone.

Second that.
I have watched a group member pull as hard as he could on a GriGri lever when someone fell - if there was not a pair of back up folk holding the tail and an instructor stood by, it could have been interesting.

Many newer belay devices seem to favour smoothness of rope paying in / out over 'grippy'...

have watched a group member pull as hard as he could on a GriGri lever when someone fell

There was a spell when lots of walls started using GriGris with groups because they looked safer. Then everyone realised that in the fully open position there was basically zero friction in a grigri so lots of people went back to using belay devices as even if you let go of the dead rope completely there is still quite a bit of friction in the system.

Just another thought about walls insisting on a full tie in instead of clip in or tie in through belay loop.

Lots of different experience levels at a wall and lots of people looking at what others are doing from different levels of experience. If a wall enforces best practice then everyone sees best practice and it becomes the norm. If they let people do stuff that's mostly OK but not best practice then less experienced climbers will see that and perhaps assume it's the thing to do.

Modern belay devices (and thinner ropes) seem to introduce much more opportunity for user error. You used to have to make a significant effort to drop someone.

I'm sorry, not going to let this past. Modern belay devices, such as the Mammut Smart, are absutely amazing. They are simple, intuitive and easy to transition to/from a normal Sticht plate type device.

The Grigri is not a modern device. It is over 30 years old. It is an absurdly overengineered, dangerous, unintuitive piece of shit.

I used to dislike Grigris intensely. Since being dropped from the 5th bolt, by my evangelical mate who had used his for 25 years, I despise them utterly.

But they are not modern devices.

We were at Windgather last night @scuttler. I'm easing my way back after a period away....house renovation followed by 5 months of injuries means that I've not climbed much in the past 9 months. It was brilliant to be back out last night though.....and suitably windy!

Ah, I get you. I thought you were speaking of friction losses in a system when someone falls.

Having been dropped once from the top of a wall, I can say that not only was my wife’s hand nicely burnt but so was her leg loop and leggings…

No, I was trying to envision how a rope could possibly wear out a harness whilst belaying.

I took a leader fall at a climbing wall once. It was greater than 2x because I had a chunk of slack in the system, my foot squirted off a hold whilst trying to clip in. You probably heard me.

@Cougar. Avoid using a Krab, as you are just adding another potential failure point into the system.

Have you ever known a screwgate fail outside of exceptional circumstances? With ill maintained gear or climbing perhaps, but it's surely the last thing that's likely to break under normal useage?

+ potential 3 way loading

When belaying? How?

Some ‘mercans do use crabs when leading big walls, but would generally use 2 together to minimise the risk.

You'd perhaps use two opposed snapgates together in the absence of a screwgate if you were desperate. Doing it with two screwgates feels a bit like wearing two condoms, it superficially sounds safer but is more likely to cause problems.

IMHO, etc.

I’m sorry, not going to let this past. Modern belay devices, such as the Mammut Smart, are absutely amazing. They are simple, intuitive and easy to transition to/from a normal Sticht plate type device.

The Grigri is not a modern device. It is over 30 years old. It is an absurdly overengineered, dangerous, unintuitive piece of shit.

Well, I've used a Grigri for 30 years. 😁 I agree 100% that it's counterintuitive and I wouldn't have a new climber belaying anywhere near it, but I reckon I've worked out how it works by now. The biggest drawback with it for me is if the rope suddenly goes slack after a climb it ****s you in the bollocks.

I'll have a look at that Smart, cheers for the tip.

took a leader fall at a climbing wall once. It was greater than 2x

Greater than 2x what?

When belaying? How?

You didn't say for belaying. You suggested using it instead of tying in.

Well, I’ve used a Grigri for 30 years. ....
but I reckon I’ve worked out how it works by now.

Mm yes. Exactly like my mate.

😁 I agree 100% that it’s counterintuitive and I wouldn’t have a new climber belaying anywhere near it,

Two good reasons why they shouldn't be used by anyone.

Right finished 'work'
Being driven to the Depot by the missus. Gotta get warmed up 🙂

@Cougar No chance I will get back into it. We’ve pared back outdoor stuff to just cycling and occasional hillwalking, which is a decision I’m happy with (canoe kit went a few years ago).

@boriselbrus only one sling, and the ropes went to the skip a couple of weeks ago, sorry.

@Marko There are some very old hexes which I’ve cut the cord from, and various nuts etc on wire. Also a couple of Bettabrakes, a fig 8 some screwgate and snap gate krabs (quickdraw tapes removed). If you want to pick them up from Blairgowrie, pm me for my address, otherwise they will be in the metal bin at the skip in a few days.

You probably heard me.

Did you have the Whillans harness on at the time?

Not seen anyone use it {bowline} for years.

Adam Ondra always uses it, I wonder if he'd get challenged at the local climbing wall. 😀

Have you ever known a screwgate fail outside of exceptional circumstances?

The issue with clipping in to toprope isn't screwgates failing, it's them being clipped in wrongly or not being screwed up and detaching.

@Cougar

Have you ever known a screwgate fail outside of exceptional circumstances?

Personally no, but the point is to minimise any potential weak points in the system, no matter how trivial it might seem to be.

I'm confused by the Grigri hate though. Nothing counterintuitive with it to my mind. Just don't touch the black handle, unless you are lowering a climber. Plenty of Petzl videos showing the correct usage.

Not seen anyone use it for years. I think the main advantage was that you could theoretically tie it with one hand?

I know a few folk that use bowlines regularly and one who never uses anything else. The main advantage is how easy it is to untie after a fall.

Walls almost killed it as it makes sense to teach beginners the fig8 but it's got plenty of applications.

I recently experimented with the 'competition knot' for tying in but ultimately went back to the old faithful fig8.

Have you ever known a screwgate fail outside of exceptional circumstances?

They can fail at remarkably low loads if loaded across the gate. There have been a few incidents with figure of eight descenders slipping round, putting a levering load across the gate and snapping it. We did this in the lab at ENSA once and it broke at less than 200kg.

Interesting reading this. I used to climb in the early 70s with a hawser laid rope round the waist, a bowline and two half-hitches and a second-hand pair of EBs. A Whillans was for the more opulent and beyond my means. Climbed mostly at Stoney Middleton but these days I rarely see anyone on it, too polished apparently.

@TheLittlestHobo

Good luck to your daughter in all the comps. Looks like she is doing very well. I'm being asked by my son for a woody set-up too (pic of your 'den' on insta!). Thinking about in the garden with a shed type felt roof. Or similar. What i really want is a larger local shed to build one in. There's a few climbers here locally including a competing IFSC youth girl at our school (probably someone your daughter knows - Graz and Dallas last year etc). So probably enough of us to kit out a good woody if we can find a shed/outbuilding to rent. Or I build a small home one which is more convienient, but space limited. The latter is probably the likely outcome.

You didn’t say for belaying. You suggested using it instead of tying in.

Apologies. How are you going to get a three-way load on a crab between two points of contact - a harness and a rope - when climbing? Am I missing something here?

I cut up old ropes/cord to lengths that were unusable for climbing but still ok for shelter building, games and knot tying, and donated to local scout group with some carabiners.
I made it clear that they were not suitable for climbing and they happily took them for other activities

Why are you so keen to defend poor practice Cougar? Why would you do anything other than tie in to your harness the way the manufacturer intended?

Eh, I'm not "keen to defend" anything. Rather I'm not seeing the issue beyond some fringe cases. I'm not saying others are wrong, I'm asking them to explain why I am (and I probably am).

There's a risk of a three-way load - how?

The crab might turn when using a rapelling device - well, I'm not using a descender when climbing so it's not relevant.

The belay loop could snap - OK, fair, but the same could be said of the belayer. How about if I thread a screwgate through the leg loop and waist loop, mirroring the path of the belay loop?

Someone said it's one extra thing to fail. Again, fair, but surely that's way less likely than the webbing failing?

How about if I thread a screwgate through the leg loop and waist loop, mirroring the path of the belay loop?

Definitely a 3 way loading there.

How about if I thread a screwgate through the leg loop and waist loop, mirroring the path of the belay loop?

That's exactly where the three way loading can occur.

For my previous conment I should have said cross loading rather than 3 way.

Eh, I’m not “keen to defend” anything. Rather I’m not seeing the issue beyond some fringe cases. 

As I've pointed out the risk is people clipping in wrongly and there have been many accidents because of this. The other issue is inexperienced climbers seeing it and adopting it without realising the risks.

It's just a total nobrainer, use the safety kit the way it's designed to be used.

Chris Bonington once told my wife off for not wearing a helmet on a North Wales multipitch.

That's partly my fault. BITD I was climbing at Cheddar with Chris, Joe Brown and others celebrating an anniversary of his Coronation St route. I took a bit of a tumble and broke my Joe Brown helmet. After seeing this, Chis was convinced about the benefits of wearing a climbing helmet.

As for trusting old kit, when I started I was using 'War Department' karabiners that apparantly had originally been issued to commandos during WW2. (still got a few in the attic)....

For my previous conment I should have said cross loading rather than 3 way.

Fair.

The other issue is inexperienced climbers seeing it and adopting it without realising the risks.

Also fair.

I’m a bit confused about this TBH. Tied in directly there’s not a lot of rope movement as a climber other than creating the initial knot which isn’t under load.

My understanding is that when you're lead climbing the rope does move arond a lot wrt where it's tied into. While this isn't under load it can cause wear.

I know this all seems a bit 'fringe case' stuff, but in a lot of cases failure of equipment is really high consequence. As such the guidance takes some unlikely but not impossible scenraios into account.

My understanding is that when you’re lead climbing the rope does move arond a lot wrt where it’s tied into. While this isn’t under load it can cause wear.

I've got a lightweight harness I use for winter climbing with no reinforcement around the waist belt where the rope goes. After 5 years of winter use it showed no visible wear. I used it for some sport climbing on a trip to the Alps and it was showing wear within 3 or 4 days. A lesson in how quickly webbing can wear with movement and load.

Experienced enough looking father took a fall from 2/3rd 15m walls. Son (16-19) didnt have brake rope tight and it slipped his grasp. Father fell from about 10m with son trying to grasp the rope. Father landed incredibly well and son stood there looking at his burnt hands.

The way that almost all belay devices 'fail-dangerous' rather than fail safe I find horrifying for exactly this reason. And yet no-one in the climbing community seems to care in the least. It's one reason I stopped doing it.

The way that almost all belay devices ‘fail-dangerous’ rather than fail safe I find horrifying for exactly this reason. And yet no-one in the climbing community seems to care in the least.

It's not that climbers don't care, plenty of work has gone into designing safer devices. The issue is that what a belay device needs to do can be pretty complex and it's thus far proven difficult to design something that offers a guaranteed catch and also meets all the other parameters.