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This has always annoyed the hell out of me, because logically, the lane bordered by the pavement is the outside.
And of course all this changes when you come to a roundabout, when the inside lane is no longer on the left, but has now moved to the right.
Its towards the inside of the car from the drivers seat?
I wonder if its an American thing from Nascar? They go anticlockwise so the left is inside.
It bugs the hell out of my Canadian wife. British driving both at the sane time can be really quite terrible, but by comparison to other countries also demands a bit of skill and sophistication; navigating meaningless traffic signs (unless you know what they mean) and why the 3rd lane on the inside of a 3 lane motorway is outside and vise-versa.
On a single carriageway, the outside of the lane is the side that adjoins the danger (the traffic coming the other way). Similarly on the footway, the outside is where the traffic is - if you're walking with somebody more vulnerable, you walk on the outside. So inside is left and outside is right and that transferred to dual carriageways.
According to the OED(*) the two lanes of the first dual carriageways were called the nearside lane and the offside lane to echo the nomenclature of car parts, but those were corrupted in use to become inside and outside.
(* - that's the outlandish explanation dictionary)
I read something a while back that it stems from dismounting a horse, which seems possible.
My own take is that Lane 1 is default; any excursions into the other lanes on a motorway or dual-carriageway are for overtaking, therefore they become the outside lanes. You leave the inside to go outside.
I think I am in a minority here as I've seen this question asked more than once; it makes perfect sense to me! We drive on the left in normal driving conditions, and the right is outside of that!
Maybe it is the terminology that causes people to sit cruising at 65mph in the outer 2 lanes though, as they think outside is normal!
The first Highway Code (1931)
"Keep to the left (or near side) except when overtaking other vehicles or avoiding obstructions: when overtaking, overtake on the right (or off-side)."
The draft for the 1959 Highway Code tackled the new-fangled three-lane motorways and included,
"On a three lane carriageway, you may keep to the centre lane when the left-hand lane is occupied by slower moving vehicles. The outer (right hand) lane is for overtaking only; do not stay in it longer than is necessary"
The House of Lords laid into that rule on Tuesday 3 December 1968 and Hansard records these comments
LORD SOMERS
I turn to paragraph 60 and other paragraphs dealing with this matter of inside and outside lanes. My attention was first drawn to this by my noble friend Lord Cork—I had not actually thought of it before. While to an experienced motorist the inside certainly does mean the left and the outside the right, to a learner driver that may not be so. If you have a dual carriageway with a reserve in the middle, obviously to him the inside lanes are going to be the ones on either side of the reserve, unless he has an extremely competent instructor who has toll him otherwise; and that is not, I regret to say, always the case. Therefore, it seems to me that throughout this Code it would be simpler to say "left-hand" or "right-hand" and not "inside" and "outside".VISCOUNT BRENTFORD
I would refer in particular to the great matter of dispute as regards inside and outside lanes, on which I agree entirely with the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, and the noble Earl, Lord Cork and Orrery. I had myself spotted the solution in Rules 60 and 61, and I feel that that must be the answer, because there is no doubt that at least 50 per cent. of the people will consider that the outside lane is, in fact, what the Government consider to be the inside lane, and vice versa. But if you refer to them as the left-hand lane, the centre lane or middle lane, and the right-hand lane, it must surely avoid all confusion until we get to the point of six-track highways.
The 1959 Highway Code as published was a mixture of "left-hand", "nearside" and "faster right-hand lanes" https://archive.org/details/thehighwaycode1959/page/n19/mode/2up?view=theater
It seems that you can blame the motorist, as with most things on a cycling forum 🙂
In my working life they were always lanes 1, 2, 3 and 4
I'll hold my hand up and say I've been guilty of using 'inside lane' for the nearside lane / left Lane/ lane one of a motorway, I was a little shocked a while ago when I saw it annoys people on here (I know I know I shouldn't be) as I thought it was commonly accepted terminology, I blame my parents!
You're thinking of 'in' and 'out' in the wrong terms.
The inside lane is for the in-crowd. It's where all the cool kids hang out, going with the flow. The outside lane is beyond the pale, the domain of outcasts, nerdowells, vagabonds and perverts. Its why they're alway in a hurry - shame and embarrassment.
Lane 1 / First Lane; Lane 2 / Second Lane; etc. Unambiguous, intuitive, doesn't change when you go round a motorway and scales to the new 64-lane supermotorway.
Its not. Its called Lane 1.
Somehow missed a paragraph and missed the edit window
House of Commons debate 18 November 1968
Mr. David Webster (Weston-super-Mare)
Lane discipline is a very grave matter. There is not adequate lane discipline, and the Ministry is right to do everything it can to enforce it. I wonder whether it was right suddenly to change the wording in Rule 112 to "After joining the motorway, stay in the inside lane"." In that context it is all right, but the inside lane of a motorway is surely the high-speed lane. The wording in the 1958–59 edition was "left-hand lane". Why have we suddenly caused ambiguity when the aim is to give clarity? I beg the Minister to consider a simple change of printing here, because I understand that the drafts that were discussed right up to the end had the wording "left-hand lane" or, on occasion, possibly "nearside lane", but "inside lane" simply creates ambiguity. I hope that this can be changed.
The House of Lords laid into that rule on Tuesday 3 December 1968 and Hansard records these comments...etc
My own take is that Lane 1 is default; any excursions into the other lanes on a motorway or dual-carriageway are for overtaking, therefore they become the outside lanes. You leave the inside to go outside.
Same here. It also makes more sense if you look at it from the point of view of the part of the road relevant to you when driving, ie, your half of the dual carriageway. Then inside = default, outside is where you move out to in order to overtake. You go back "in" when you're done overtaking. The actual centre of the road and whatever's on the other side of the barrier is irrelevant.
nearside lane and the offside lane to echo the nomenclature of car parts
This has always annoyed the hell out of me.
If I wanted to buy a wing mirror for my german brand car, what do I ask for? The wing mirror part number is the same regardless of which side the steeering wheel is on.
If a german came here on holiday, bringing their euro-spec version of the same car with them, and wanted a wing mirror, what do they ask for? If there is any ambiguity in this when it is the same part, and more importantly could easily be solved by using the terms "right" and "left" for things that are not dependent on what side the steering wheel is on (and "driver" and "passenger" if it is dependent on that) then it is just stupid.
Someone once told me my offside brake light bulb had gone. Thank you for telling me about the bulb. I have a spare at home and its a 5 minute change.
Its the brake light though, so I needed to find a helpful friend to press the pedal while I stood behind the car to work out which one I needed to change. A frustrating extra step which could have been avoided with one fewer syllable.
"Nearside" refers to the kerb.
The House of Lords laid into that rule on Tuesday 3 December 1968 and Hansard records these comments...etc
Interesting history, but curious as to the mention of a "high speed" lane. I wasn't born in 1968, but no such thing has existed in my living memory. Was there a time when different lanes had different limits? Far as I knew the motorways went from no limit at all directly to 70mph sometime in the late 60s.
Someone once told me my offside brake light bulb had gone. Thank you for telling me about the bulb. I have a spare at home and its a 5 minute change.
Its the brake light though, so I needed to find a helpful friend to press the pedal while I stood behind the car to work out which one I needed to change. A frustrating extra step which could have been avoided with one fewer syllable.
Good job it wasn't the headlight then. If someone had told you that your right headlight had died, what would happen?
- You change the right/driver/offside light, all is good.
- You change the right/driver/offside light, but he was looking at your car from the front and therefore his right is actually the car's left. You have to do it all over again. Swears ensue.
- You go to change the bulb and then, after realising that "right" is a bit ambiguous when looking at the car from the front, have to turn the lights on anyway in order to find out which is broken. "Oh how I wish he'd just said 'offside'" you bemoan. Swears ensue.
This reminds me, I noticed yesterday that my nearside headlight has died, must sort that out today 😉
If a german came here on holiday, bringing their euro-spec version of the same car with them, and wanted a wing mirror, what do they ask for?
I'd expect that for a lot of cars there are differences between the driver and passenger side mirrors so a right hand mirror on a left hand drive car wouldn't be the same as on a right hand drive car, and so wouldn't be suitable for your imaginary German anyway. They'd need to do a special order for a right hand mirror for a left hand drive car. Geez I miss the days where you could nip to Halfords and choose from a selection of mirrors that would all fit any mini, fiesta, golf, cortina or whatever.
Auf der beifahrerseite.
Good job it wasn't the headlight then. If someone had told you that your right headlight had died, what would happen?
- You change the right/driver/offside light, all is good.
- You change the right/driver/offside light, but he was looking at your car from the front and therefore his right is actually the car's left. You have to do it all over again. Swears ensue.
- You go to change the bulb and then, after realising that "right" is a bit ambiguous when looking at the car from the front, have to turn the lights on anyway in order to find out which is broken. "Oh how I wish he'd just said 'offside'" you bemoan. Swears ensue.
Brake lights require a foot on the brake pedal; whereas the headlights function with nobody in the drivers seat, so I could just get out and check. If its dark, I can probably tell from the drivers seat.
I would have assumed that "your right headlight" would refer to the right hand side of the vehicle, as viewed from the drivers seat and/or travelling in its primary intended direction.
The venn diagram of people who get confused with left and right, and those who dont understand nearside/offside is probably a donut. (One in which I would be between the inner and outer ring).
If I wanted to buy a wing mirror for my german brand car, what do I ask for? The wing mirror part number is the same regardless of which side the steeering wheel is on.
Not neccearily - the driver side and passenger side mirrors can have different optics. So the left hand mirror on a left hand drive car is not necessarily the same as the left hand mirror on a right hand drive car. On our little German van the wing mirrors and their housings are different dimensions / proportions depending on whether they are driver or passenger side
the two lanes of the first dual carriageways were called the nearside lane and the offside lane to echo the nomenclature of car parts,
thats just as counter intuitive though as in reference to vehicle rather than the road the 'near side' is the side of the car furthest away from you and the offside is the side closer to the opponent's goal than the ball and the second-last opponent.
Interesting history, but curious as to the mention of a "high speed" lane. I wasn't born in 1968, but no such thing has existed in my living memory. Was there a time when different lanes had different limits? Far as I knew the motorways went from no limit at all directly to 70mph sometime in the late 60s.
Trialled in 1965, permanent in 1967. At the time the national speed limit for buses was restricted to 40mph and only rose to 50mph in 1966.
I'd guess that it came from restricted vehicle classes travelling in lanes 1 and 2 out of habit/good practice rather than anything else because motorways were faster than UK racing circuits before the introduction of speed limits
In 1964, it (AC cars) was caught testing the performance of its 4.2 litre V8-engined Cobra up the motorway at 183 miles an hour.
According to the Daily Mirror, Charles Hurlock, joint managing director of AC Cars, said: “I am unhappy about having to use a public road like this for such tests, but British racetracks can't cope with sustained runs over 160mph. We had only one run and we checked to see that the motorway was clear.” https://moneyweek.com/419950/22-december-1965-70mph-speed-limit-introduced
i never liked "near side" and "off side"
near what? the kerb. why not the crown?
thats just as counter intuitive though as in reference to vehicle rather than the road the 'near side' is the side of the car furthest away from you and the offside is the side closer to the opponent's goal than the ball and the second-last opponent.
Well the goal in driving is to go as fast as possible so that makes sense - the offside is the side closer to where the fast lane is 😀
Good grief, next you'll be saying you don't understand how the Three Sea Shells work ...
(car make/ model), (fitting year range), Right - UK Driver Side (Offside) Wing Mirror Unit (no.) pins (no.) holes
Got to state RHD or LHD and Offside/Nearside.
Roads, might as well be Nearside/ Inside/ Lane 1... its all interchangeable. We need a new standard to sort this.
We need a new standard to sort this.
im going to nominate ‘My Side and Your Side’
although perhaps we could use stage directions
‘in 400 yards, at the roundabout, exit stage left’
You pull out onto a road the outside lane is further out.
So it should really be the outsidest lane.
unless you know what they mean
Um. The british roadsigns are specifically designed to be understandable without needing a specific language (mostly). And can be read at speed.
They are oretty much the standard for loads of countries to work off.
Which ones are you struggling with?!
although perhaps we could use stage directions
‘in 400 yards, at the roundabout, exit stage left’
I've no idea what stage left actually means. The actors' left or the audience's left?
Maybe we should use port and starboard!
Which ones are you struggling with?!
I read something once saying that the British road sign that causes the most confusion amongst drivers is the stop sign, because it's an unusual shape and looks different to everything else.
This is despite the very simple instruction being clearly printed in the centre in massive letters, but hey ho.
Um. The british roadsigns are specifically designed to be understandable without needing a specific language (mostly). And can be read at speed.
as an adjacent bit of trivia - Japanese traffic lights are a different shade of green, nearer to blue, than the rest of the world. Not all languages distinguish between blue and green but in Japan apparently it just a bit out of shift and the colour of the lights had to be changed a bit so they match the word for ‘green’
but by comparison to other countries also demands a bit of skill and sophistication; navigating meaningless traffic signs (unless you know what they mean)
Any country’s traffic signs are meaningless if you aren’t a native of the country. If you’re going to drive on British roads, for any length of time, you need to become familiar with the traffic signs.
And as British cars are RH drive, the verge on the LH side is obviously the near side, or inside lane. Why are people making such a simple and obvious thing so complicated and confusing?
I'll hold my hand up and say I've been guilty of using 'inside lane' for the nearside lane / left Lane/ lane one of a motorway, I was a little shocked a while ago when I saw it annoys people on here (I know I know I shouldn't be) as I thought it was commonly accepted terminology, I blame my parents!
It does? Good. As someone who’s been driving for fifty years, and has always clearly understood that the nearside or inside lane is the one I drive my car on, offside lanes on multiple carriageway roads are those you use to overtake in, and when driving professionally took it as read when talking to other professional drivers they understood it as well, and never, ever had an issue with any misunderstanding.
Anyone who’s unclear, should maybe undertake a refresher course on how to drive.
And I use the word ‘undertake’ deliberately.
Its the brake light though, so I needed to find a helpful friend to press the pedal while I stood behind the car to work out which one I needed to change
No need to phone a friend, a house brick does the same job, place it on the pedal and the brake lights come on
I read something once saying that the British road sign that causes the most confusion amongst drivers is the stop sign, because it's an unusual shape and looks different to everything else.
I can't recall the last time I saw an octagonal STOP sign. Do they still exist?
I can't recall the last time I saw an octagonal STOP sign. Do they still exist?
I imagine they’ll be dying out and they were never that common. They’re basically there to denote a junction with poor visibility that requires more caution than a junction signed as ‘give way’ - which will of course means it’s a badly designed junction. Over time they’ll get redesigned or improved, or be replaced by traffic lights etc so the signs will get more and more rare.
but I think of all the signs you might struggle to interpret - the red one with ‘stop’ written on it is probably quite low down the list 🙂
the unique shape compared to other uk signs is so that it’s still legible obscured by snow, silhouetted by low sun etc apparently
I remember "learning" to drive on the British roads, my instructor one said to me "inside and offside" lane. I just told him to speak "English" because I didn't have a clue what he was referring to, unless he wanted to have his brand new car tow away that afternoon. (driving instructor just bought the car new) He then attempted to explain but his explanation just turned into vague noises for me. To clarify, I just asked "left" or "right" lane while getting closer and closer to the lane (esp roundabout)? LOL! Simples!
Why are people making such a simple and obvious thing so complicated and confusing?
Because what you stated made is much simpler....
Having read this entire thread, it still seems that inside and outside lane are the simplest terms. Honestly, this is the first time I’ve ever realised that anyone is confused by those terms.
Inside and outside ... pah.
If I wanted to buy a wing mirror for my german brand car, what do I ask for?
A door mirror.
Having read this entire thread, it still seems that inside and outside lane are the simplest terms.
Which one is the inside lane on a roundabout?
How do you define all the lanes on a 4-lane motorway?
the unique shape compared to other uk signs is so that it’s still legible obscured by snow, silhouetted by low sun etc apparently
That's a really good point and not something I'd thought of.
Driving in the US one time, I came to a STOP sign at a T-junction. America being America it was pitch flat with no buildings around, you could practically see into the next county. I was the only car visible so I just rolled on through and my US friends in the car lost their minds. Apparently at a stop sign you absolutely must come to a complete stop even if it's just for a nanosecond before setting off again.
It's technically the case here too I suppose, but it seems wildly unlikely that anyone would care.
I have always known it as lane 1
How do you define all the lanes on a 4-lane motorway?
Lorries, old folk, default lane choice, Audis and BMWs.
Driving in the US one time, I came to a STOP sign at a T-junction. America being America it was pitch flat with no buildings around, you could practically see into the next county. I was the only car visible so I just rolled on through and my US friends in the car lost their minds. Apparently at a stop sign you absolutely must come to a complete stop even if it's just for a nanosecond before setting off again.
Doing this about 100 m - sorry - 300 feet - from my house was the only time I ever got a traffic ticket in the US.
There's one local to me, but then there's also plenty of other junctions with just as bad (or even worse) visibility that have a regular give way sign. Maybe they should be more common 🤷♂️
There's one local to me, but then there's also plenty of other junctions with just as bad (or even worse) visibility that have a regular give way sign.
Often it's just the result of accidents - a lot of signage is reactive. Every road has bends in it, not every bend has a sign warning that theres a bend, but if there is then the likelihood is the there have been enough accidents at that particular bend to warrant putting a sign up. So perhaps that particular junction has seen more (or more serious) accidents than the others. But with junctions in particular its wiser to make changes to the road in some way, if thats possible, than put a sign up in recognition that is dangerous.
Which one is the inside lane on a roundabout?
How do you define all the lanes on a 4-lane motorway?
id have thought that the inside lane on a roundabout is the left hand lane in the UK. In France it would be the right hand lane.
Which one is the inside lane on a roundabout?
How do you define all the lanes on a 4-lane motorway?
id have thought that the inside lane on a roundabout is the left hand lane in the UK. In France it would be the right hand lane.
Yes.
I've always assumed it was taken from pavements - the inside of a pavement is furthest from the road. So the outside (line or lane) is furthest away (which is also why it switches on a roundabout as the lane closest to the roundabout is nearer so is therefore the inside.
Haven't read the whole thread but will assume that is too simplistic and therefore doesn't need any more thought. 🙂
Often it's just the result of accidents - a lot of signage is reactive. Every road has bends in it, not every bend has a sign warning that theres a bend, but if there is then the likelihood is the there have been enough accidents at that particular bend to warrant putting a sign up. So perhaps that particular junction has seen more (or more serious) accidents than the others. But with junctions in particular its wiser to make changes to the road in some way, if thats possible, than put a sign up in recognition that is dangerous.
Design out danger. I think stop signs aren't always just about visibility at the junction but the run up aswell.
I can think of a couple where high walls either side at a cross road actually quite effectively make the junction look like a straight through. Its only when you get close you start to see the wider picture that you are going to cross a significantly larger road. By the time you get to the junction it feels much more like a give way with actually quite decent sight lines on a straight flat road.
Back to the OP.
Surely its literally just how you sit in the car. Right hand drive.. the outside of the car is on your right. The inside of the car is on your left. So anything beyond that is the inside(side).
Nearside and offside is a much more questionable. The nearside is quite obviously the right hand side... Its nearest. And if the nearside is near to something then the offside should quite obviously be the farside
All of its nonsense though. Its quite obvious what ever logic you apply isn't universal and none of it serves any useful purpose that isn't served by a much simpler concept of left and right that is consistent regardless of where your or the steering wheel are located.
Every road has bends in it, not every bend has a sign warning that theres a bend, but if there is then the likelihood is the there have been enough accidents at that particular bend to warrant putting a sign up.
There is specific guidance for some roads. On others it's based on a more subjective assessment, but signs should always be used sparingly and consistently, so additional signage following a spate of collisions shouldn't be needed too often.
There are also specific distances for a bend(s) to be classed as two singles or a double, etc.
3.1.1. The degree of danger at a bend varies mainly with four factors – the speed of approach, the radius of curvature, the superelevation and the skid resistance of the road surface. No uniform objective test can be applied and traffic authorities must rely on a subjective assessment of these factors when deciding whether or not to use the sign.
3.1.4. On high standard all‑purpose dual carriageway roads, consideration should be given to erecting the signs in advance of bends of radius less than 450 metres
Traffic Signs Manual Chapter 4 https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/
As an ex-driving instructor I'll chip in!Nearside/offside absolutely for anything relative to the car.
For lanes then I always used lane 1,2,3 etc starting from the kerb. roundabouts especially as inside/outside was interpreted differently by every pupil, yet (for example) "approach in lane 2, use lane 2 on the island, take the 3rd exit leaving to lane 1" leaves very little room for misunderstanding.
Rob