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When VAT was temporarily reduced to 15%, the Chancellor added 2% duty to fuel to offset the reduction in tax collected from motorists. Now that VAT has been increased to 17.5% again this hidden tax has not been removed - hence recent rises in your fuel costs.
[url= http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/DutyReduction/ ]Sign Here[/url]
The 2% was always planned.
Its not a hidden tax. Its overt and obvious
Fuel is far too cheap anyway
And it's not the fuel duty that's setting the prices currently, it's profits.
Fuel is far too cheap anyway
I'm not sure how you can judge the correct value for fuel.
We are being weened off the destructive stuff.
Not quickly enough thats why I say its too cheap.
car driving generates less taxation revenue than it costs the country. I'd like car drivers to pay their way please
[i]car driving generates less taxation revenue than it costs the country. I'd like car drivers to pay their way please[/i]
Can you quote your sources? Im genuinely intrigued by that statement.
As Drac says, "the 2% was always planned"........long before the announcement of the cut in VAT.
TJ would love to see your facts on this one. 2008 figures show that £222 million is made in fuel duty and VAT every day. Without road tax & other green taxes imposed on motorists.
TJ, thats sounds unbelievable. Source please?
If you start to factor in all sort of intangible costs - like the cost of lost work days due to asthma, the notional cost of someones death - you can exceed the £222m
road tax
no such thing
I'd like to complain about the price of fuel, but I drive a 535i - so not really helping 'my corner'...
I'm with TJ on this one: Put 5 people in a car and all their luggage and it costs you a grand total of 1 squid a head to travel 50 miles.
In fifty years time (when travelling anywhere, by any mechanized means costs a kings ransom) people are going to look back and laugh at how we complained about how much it cost to go wherever we wanted, whenever we wanted for the cost of a cup of tea!
I'd like to complain about the price of fuel, but I drive a 535i - so not really helping 'my corner'.
Similar boat here, someone else buys most of it for me
😀
We have done the debate before.
It all depends on how you add up the figures.
There are a lot of costs that most people forget - childhood asthma in cities from car pollution, vibration and pollution damage to buildings, cost of treating car accident victims, cost of the land that roads and parking spaces, enforecement of motoring laws enforcemtnt of parking regulations etc etc.
add all this up and there is a massive disparity in amount of taxation from motoring and its direct and indirect costs to society
Then there is the unquantifiable social costs as well - destruction of rural communities as the towns and villages turn into dormitory towns.
Its all out there if you want to find it. However I know from previous debates on this nothing will convinced the car drivers that actually they suck up huge amounts of the nations resources unfairly and are effectively subsidised by the taxpayer
the highways agency costs the gov 12.7 billion a year
An outline of the arguments from a very unbiased source 🙄
http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2000/08/03/drivers-are-undertaxed/
I've got absolutely no problem with higher taxes for cars once this lovely country of ours manages to provide reliable, frequent, useful public transport.
vrapan, ~I agree with you. I crave for a society with minimal sole occupancy cars. Where the cars are communal and computer driven and are like a taxi hive. The cars will automatically stick to speed limits and will have sensors to detect pedestrians and cyclists.
People will naturally want to share them (imagine a car share facebook group) and will only share with those that they want to.
The future of transport is exciting.
We need to get through the current mess of massive amounts of cars with only one occupant.
We need to stop travelling miles from where we live to where we work
what about factoring in the benefit to the national economy of the auto trade, having a mobile and flexible workforce and the dependence on the road infrastructure of the haulage industry. Once that's factored in i doubt the numbers stack up. I'm asthmatic. I'd much rather use public transport, but it's genuinely more expensive and not at all convenient c/w using a car. Until there is a viable alternative, and a public transport infrastructure that is reliable, i'll be staying in the car. . Wouldn't object to fuel duty if it was invested in public transport but it's not it's used to fund wars and bail out corrupt banks. Right, i'll get off my soap any now :-).
Nick - Member
We need to stop travelling miles from where we live to where we work
+1
I travel less than a mile to work.
Public transport is too expensive, runs at shite times and even worse in rural areas so people use cars.
I won't be stopping or reducing my driving any time soon
When there's reasonable public transport - I may think about it
I live on the East coast main line, yet to get to our head office in Guildford [on another main line]
I need to take 2 buses, 2 trains & 2 tubes
Nick - Member
We need to stop travelling miles from where we live to where we work
Love to, but my wife and I have normal places of work 40 miles apart and regularly have to go to other sites in our respective companies up to 100 miles in the other direction (if that makes sense - it would if I named the towns trust me).
We just don't have that option.
Or more accurately, it's not an option up for consideration. Whereas if you didn't have driving licenses, your current situation wouldn't be an option at all.
But please don't take this for a moment as some sort of chastisement or disaproval that you should do anything other than what you are currently doing though. That's not my intention.
igm - Member
> Nick - Member
> We need to stop travelling miles from where we live to where we work
Love to, but my wife and I have normal places of work 40 miles apart and regularly have to go to other sites in our respective companies up to 100 miles in the other direction (if that makes sense - it would if I named the towns trust me).We just don't have that option.
Agree - it's just that [i]as a society[/i] we've come to accept this as normal. Of course, lots of it has been done to centralisation and specialisation. Difficult to see how we crack that in the short-medium term, although lots more employers should be looking at home (or remote) working where practical.
With fuel being 'too cheap' would everyone saying that be happy for a substantial rise in the cost of living.
druidh - yep
Ian Munro - Of course. But having done bachelors degrees, masters degrees and done the necessary to join our respective professional bodies, we'd both like to work (given the nation paid for a lot of that education presumably they'd like us to work too). But that said, we don't both have to work, we could try to move somewhere where there is some public transport. But I reckon druidh is closer to the truth.
Yep,I agree wholeheartdly with what druidh said. It's fantastically hard to buck the system, and whilst energy remains cheap, probably not a smart move anyway.
Indeed, fuel is too cheap - so we raise the cost of fuel.
It means that it costs more to transport goods for sale, and the cost of goods goes up - Of course, also it costs more for people to travel to work, so the staff want a pay rise, and the price of goods has to go up even further to cover the pay rise as well...
yep, you guessed it, the fact that retail prices of food and general shopping have gone up means that staff want a pay rise to match the cost of living increase - so wages go up again...
suddenly, fuel is now comparatively cheap again - so we raise the cost of fuel and start the inflatory cycle all over again 🙄
On the cost of public transport - its usually not as expensive in relation to a car as people think. Its just people only consider the [i]additional[/i] cost of the miles of driving - not the total costs - and also forget the time spent looking for parking in the time considerations. virtually every journey I do around Scotland is cheaper by public transport than by car.
One example is to visit my folks. I have 3 options - drive ( if I had a car) bike / train mix and public transport all the way.
Drive - its 110 mile round trip. That what £10 - £15 in petrol but another £5 - 10 in hidden costs ( servicing / tyre wear etc)
Bike to Waverley, a few pennies in wear. return train to Glasgow £13. Cycle to their house another few pennies. say £15 total
Or - £1.20 on the bus (x2), 2 trains at £16 return. £18.40 total Depending on the time of day its around 1 1/4 hr by car and 1 1/2 hr either of the other options.
so actually public transport stacks up well in both time and money and is far less stressful as I get to read the paper on the train.
Most folk who say public transport is expensive and unreliable haven't used it for years.
Most folk who say public transport is expensive and unreliable haven't used it for years
TJ - get your calculator & timetables out & do the sums & logistics for me to get from Darlington to Guildford - both on main train lines
I reckon to drive there & back costs £55 in fuel - so call it £75
Lets say get me there for noon & back home by 9pm the next day
While I agree with TJ that the total cost of motoring to society is bigger than the fuel tax whingers believe, I think that living in Edibugh HAS skewed his views on public transport. Outside of Embra or the Weege, especially if you're not going from city to city, its supers***e. And more expensive than a car, and takes too long.
Uplink - Interesting challenge
Depart darlington 07.06 arrive Guilford 11.24
Next day depart Guildford 16.05 arrive Darlington 20.36
Price - be organised and book ahead £110
Turn up on the day £205
Can you drive it in 4 1/2 hrs? Have you remembered the cost of your parking in the price? Is £75 quid realistic? If you have a new car dealer serviced then its nearer double your fuel cost to get your total cost including everything.
AA routeplanner says 267 miles in 4 hrs 34 mins
RAC car cost comparison for a 1800cc repmobile says 52 p per mile total cost ( new car costing £14000 , dealer serviced. kept for 3 yrs, depreciation, servicing and and comprehensive insurance included annual mileage 12000)
that makes it £227 to drive total cost- gulp!
How close do you live to the station? Add a £20 taxi each end changes it somewhat.
Can you drive it in 4 1/2 hrs
Yeah, 4.5 - 5 hrs is normal [if there is such a day]
How close do you live to the station?
1/2 mile
No parking needed
West kipper - I know that I live where public transport is good. My folks used to live where it was bad - only another £5 to get there but another hour
TandemJeremy, I share your utopian view of a society less dependant on us all having metal boxes dedicated to our own transportation.
However where we are in 2010 is a little different.
Like many on here, I could not do my job, or do what my family needs without a car. Once you own a car (lets ignore the 3 year lease with prohivitive extra milage charges cos most folk don't have them) the cost per mile is really only petrol/diesel and 1/20,000'th of the cost of 4 tyres/brakes. Parking is rarely an expense at most destinations.
So lets not bicker on this. We both share a view of utopia, just that some of us campaign while needing to make the best of the current system (with a family to transport) and others live close to work and don't have dependants.
Uplink - and I think its east coast mainline most of the way - free wifi on the train so thats 9 hrs work ( stwing??) you could do while travelling. Whats 9 hrs of your working time worth?
Od chillout with a book and your ipod - drinking coffe on the way down and beer on the way back
I'd rather train that journey than drive
I am suprised that the train came out so well. £55 in petrol? 50 ish MPG??? ( can't be bothered with the sums)
total cost of motoring to society is bigger than the fuel tax whingers believe
why single out cars for this treatment, isn't it true of almost *everything* in society, food, white goods, gadgets, even bicycle etc.. they all need energy, fuel and transport at some point along the line.
maybe we'll see some kind of reverse globalisation eventually??
CHB - the 50P a mile from the RAC is not leasing - thats buying a car from new, dealer servicing it and replacing after 3 yrs. You can reduce that cost of course by buying second-hand so depreciation is less and having a smaller car but you are forgetting VED, insurance and servicing costs which are at least few hundred a year 30 P a miles say? Even then the journey above is £162 total ( not additional) cost.
Of course your family can live without a car as many do. - you just need to build that into your life. I don't own a car and it hardly compromises me. The worst bit is begging lifts to join pals at Glentress - otherwise I cycle, use public transport and taxi and hire cars when needed
its about choices you make. You chose a lifestyle that requires a car - I don't. You like most car drivers are underestimating the cost to you of car ownership. Be clear tho - its about choice no need.
When I was a kid my parents did not drive me everywhere ( until we moved out of town) I went to Judo lessons by bike, I walked and I cycled around the town - and 70s Glasgow was more dangerous than any city now
I think private motorists do deserve to be singled out a bit more because of what I see everyday in Edinburgh; thousands of people all in single occupant vehicles each carting around 1-2 tonnes of metal than is strictly necessary all blocking up the roads.
I do have more sympathy for the haulage industry and people that are using vehicles essential to infrastucture.
£55 in petrol? 50 ish MPG???
I get nearer 60mpg on that run - motorway pretty much door to door
It's all the changing of trains etc that p's me off more than anything
There's also usually 2 of us on that run so a bit cheaper each
I do use the train probably 50% of the time but in practice it's always been a lot dearer than the prices you found.
+ if I go on the train - I can't take my bike & get out to the Surrey hills on a Summer evening 🙂
Uplink - are you surprised at the cost and time of the train? Gonna book ahead and get the train next time? Work on the way down and get drunk on the way back?
westkipper - the thing that really gets to me is the commuters - queuing in their cars for an hour to get into Edinburgh and an hour to get back out. Nothing is worth that to me.
Why can't you take your bike on the train?
I agree the book ahead for £110 is tricky - there is a £150 ticket that is more flexible. 2 of you sharing a car changes the sums a lot
I was surprised how comparative it worked out. I was expecting the time to be worse
Uplink - are you surprised at the cost and time of the train? Gonna book ahead and get the train next time? Work on the way down and get drunk on the way back?
I guess we posted at the same time
As I said I do take the train but it's dearer than that - usually book the day before
Uplink - Work on the way down and get drunk on the way back?
Don't get me started on the cost of a beer on the train
Why can't you take your bike on the train?
All the other stuff I have to take starts making it a bit onerous trying to get down the escalator to the tube in Kings X
TandemJeremy, what you need to take into account is the "cost per additional mile" once you accept that you own a car.
My car insurance is fixed unless I do over 15,000 miles. So is VED and MOT. Servicing is also 15k or 12 months. So you see that the cost per extra mile is less than you expect.
Now of course you have to cost up the "car free life" versus the "with car life". Owning a car is an expensive club to join, but once you are in it the extra cost per mile is less than you calculate.
That said, I genuinley crave a society that enables me to share access to my expensive metal box sat on my drive and enable cheap public transport as an alternative. In 2010 it isn't there.
Let me give you an example. We live in Leeds. 300m from the nearest train station that goes straight to Meadowhell shopping centre in Sheffield. for the four of us (2 adults 2 kids) it was approx £15 return on the train and is approx a 50 minute journey. In a car it is 30 mins and costs £7 in petrol (at todays costs). I really want to use public transport. But in most of this country its crap and expensive.
west kipper +1
It would be nice if we had a more pro-active government where it comes to transport. Big tax breaks for companies who make carsharing more possible, heavier promotion of smaller, lighter cars and motorcycles.
I suspect that a large part of the public reluctance to go for this would be linked to the reduction in percieved status.
Turn up to a business meeting in motorcycle leathers, or in a Smartcar and the client may not be as confidence-inspired as if one gets out of a Beemer.
Arriving at work with messed up hair from cycling, or even a bit damp from the rain is seen as 'unprofessional'.
I sure that these are the real reasons why people dont switch to cheaper running vehicles.
west - I think you've just highlighted peripheral issues, the core one being that people on the whole are lazy ****ers.
Maybe :-), but even if they aren't, theres lots of ways society tries to make things difficult for those trying to escape the rat-race (or rat-drive, mair like!)
Often we go into London on a Sunday to visit the museums, we could get the train at £50 (2 adults and 1 child) and 2 hours there and 2 hours back - or we could drive the 80 mile round trip and pay £16 to park for the day.
Either way its ****ing expensive.
Oh, and 2 weekends in a month the trains are buses...
100% its a status thing in the UK and one of the differences in transport here and int he low countries. Here a bike is seen as the poor persons transport. My dutch nephew asked me "where are all the normal cyclists" - this is in Edinburgh where lost of peaple cycle
Turn up for a meeting on your bike in Holland and its not even noticed.
CHB - you are still forgetting some costs. Tyre wear and depreciation and servicing all have a per mile content not per year. Its a choice to use a car not a necessity - be clear about that. You have chosen a lifestyle that requires a car. I know families who live without cars.
Thanks to all for having this debate in a reasonable manner. Normally bu now I would have been called a deluded green nazi 🙂
TJ, yes I have chosen a lifestyle. Why? well to be honest in this country in my part of the world the alternative is non-workable.
It would take me 2h each way to work instead of 40minutes (or 1h23 when I cycle!) and taking the kids to my mums would take 2h as well instead of 15mins in the car.
If you live outside a city centre and have dependants then large areas of the UK (most of it) are crap for using public transport unless you are very time rich/cash poor. You really don't need to be well off for the equation to rule out public transport.
oh... and it's not 100% status. I genuinely would like us to be a less car centered society. But it isn't and to take part in UK society it really helps to have a car (again factor in for me that there is often 4 of us to get from A to B). More cycle lanes, cheap and effective public transport would be great, but its mainly crap.
You are delusioned if you think that everyone can live without a car without being very selective about where they live and how they live.
CHB, I dont think anyone is having a go personally at you. I think that its just crap that modern lifestyle forces people into this situation, even if they dont want to.
I dont currently have a car and my life is absolutely made more difficult as a result.
But I still dont feel that making fuel cheaper is a good thing.
(Edit- now you've just gone and spoiled things with your plea for more cyclelanes, where's my gun? :-))
drive a company car and pay ****'all...pass the cost on to customers and TJ pays muhhhhhhahaaaaahhaaa
220mile commute a day is a bit sh1t though 😥
You polar bear murderer you!
CHB
TJ, yes I have chosen a lifestyle. Why? well to be honest in this country in my part of the world the alternative is non-workable.
It would take me 2h each way to work instead of 40minutes (or 1h23 when I cycle!) and taking the kids to my mums would take 2h as well instead of 15mins in the car.
That is a part of your [i]choice[/i] - you do not [i]have[/i] to live where you do - you have chosen to live where travelling is inconvenient without a car
TJ, yes I have chosen a lifestyle. Why? well to be honest in this country in my part of the world the alternative is non-workable.
It would take me 2h each way to work instead of 40minutes (or 1h23 when I cycle!) and taking the kids to my mums would take 2h as well instead of 15mins in the car.That is a part of your choice - you do not have to live where you do - you have chosen to live where travelling is inconvenient without a car
The more specialised your work, the more likely you are to have to move for it. Then your boss tells you that the company is moving offices, whilst your partner's tells her they're also moving, but in the opposite direction. As you may have noticed, there isn't a great deal of [i]choice[/i] in the jobs market at the moment. What do you do?
....and at the other end of the scale, even if your in a crap, relatively low paid job like mine you dont have much choice either. Despite being a native Leither, I cant afford to live within 25 miles of Edinburgh. So I HAVE to travel.
zokes, exactly!
've got absolutely no problem with higher taxes for cars once this lovely country of ours manages to provide reliable, frequent, useful public transport.
Well, you could take transport out of the hands of private enterprise for a start.
The more specialised your work, the more likely you are to have to move for it. Then your boss tells you that the company is moving offices, whilst your partner's tells her they're also moving, but in the opposite direction. As you may have noticed, there isn't a great deal of choice in the jobs market at the moment. What do you do?
Wait until there is choice in the jobs market and make the right choice. Excuses, excuses. 😉
Well, you could take transport out of the hands of private enterprise for a start.
Yes, because British Rail was SO much better...
Wait until there is choice in the jobs market and make the right choice. Excuses, excuses.
Oh of course, in the mean time, I'll sit at home on the dole (costing the government money), whilst having the heating and leccy on (polluting) that I wouldn't otherwise had to use if i'd been at work. I see this as a promising strategy 🙄
Make public transport convenient, affordable and pleasant.
Accept that sometimes people NEED to use cars. I travel to work by bike, but I find that towing my caravan really does require a car. (On the other hand, I never fly anywhere). Sometimes I am injured or ill, and use my car. Sometimes my dog is injured or ill and has to be driven to the vet. Sometimes I have to carry big or heavy things.
Look, what we need is a holistic "carbon credit scheme" - cars are by no means the #1 villain. What about farting cows? What about shipping stuff from Korea? What about great big "look at how much I earn houses" with their great big heating bills. What about swimming pools?
See? It's not as simple as demonising car drivers and, frankly, I'm sick of being scapegoated/milked as a convenient cash cow.
I've said it before but the problem is that the government is addicted to fuel duty. If it wasn't then maybe we might have a public transport infrastructure like Holland for example.
The costs of public transport have been allowed to escalate partly because it'll be cheaper to take the car. If rail travel were cheap and accessible then a large chunk of £50bn revenue would be wiped out and the Treasury can't allow that.
The demand for fuel is inelastic, hence the amount of tax can be set at whatever the chancellor likes.