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Some dogs spook easily, and walkers struggle to control them.
I think we're agreeing though? I'm not having a go at either dog walkers *or* horse riders, or really trying to suggest that one group is better/worse than the other.
I'm just saying it's odd that there's a difference in responsibility expectation.
Are you only tolerating horses and not tolerating dogs because an access code the rest of the UK has likely never heard of tells you to?
1) - I tolerate both - just do what the law and basic morals dictate
2) - - No I understand why the law is like this.
YO have now veered into being very patronising with your attitude towards a well worked out code and a system that works well. Please read up on it if you ever come north of the border
not ringing a bell near a horse. I didn’t know that
<baffled>
But risk of serious injury, to me? 100% horses pose the greater risk.
Risk management is part of my job. You typically have two factors,* likelihood and severity.
The relative severity of the outcome of a horse attack vs a dog attack is arguably very high, yes. I'd probably take on a pissed-off dog over a pissed-off horse. But the likelihood of a horse attack happening in the first place is vanishingly small. I don't recall ever seeing a Dangerous Horses Act hitting Parliament. Nor do I recall many "this horse ran up to me today and ruined my picnic..." STW forum threads.
(* - there's more, I'm simplifying)
Some dogs spook easily, and walkers struggle to control them.
Have them on a lead when exercising them where they come into contact with the public then.
The same goes for young or easily spooked horses.
I think we’re agreeing though?
...
I’m just saying it’s odd that there’s a difference in responsibility expectation.
Which is the point I was getting at too.
We see horses and assume they might be mental. We see dogs and assume they might be mental.
Yet, we see horses and take pains to give them room and to pass really slowly. We see dogs and scream "get your ****ing mutt under control!!"
What's the divisor here? That horses deserve more respect because they are better placed to **** us up?
Have them on a lead when exercising them where they come into contact with the public then.
The same goes for young or easily spooked horses.
Radical idea, it'll never catch on.
What’s the divisor here?
That people aren’t being chased, or even approached, by loose horses down the park or on a byway?
What’s the divisor here?
I see a horse which the rider is doing their best to control using the recommended equipment - I'm aware that there's still a risk and do my best to be considerate. I see a dog, on a lead, with the owner doing their best to avoid the dog creating concern to anyone else - my response is the same.
I see a dog, out of control, with the accepted method of control not in evidence, and an owner who clearly doesn't care if that worries me - my response is to be concerned and to do whatever is necessary to protect myself from an animal of a species which has previously injured me.
But the likelihood of a horse attack happening in the first place is vanishingly small.
What’s the divisor here?
Haven't you just explained it? In my (obviously incredibly representative of everyone, anecdote = data etc.) experience having given both horse riders and dogs + walkers wide, respectful and reasonably paced overtakes, I've only been chased by a dog.
Perhaps a horse is perceived to be relatively predictable unless the person overtaking does something stupid, whereas dogs are perceived to be a total liability unless on a short lead?
What’s the divisor here?
if you spook a horse people including the rider could get killed.
Be careful out there.
Haven’t you just explained it?
I was trying to.
if you spook a horse people including the rider could get killed.
if you spook a dog people including the walker could get killed.
Be careful out there.
He was just being friendly
Perhaps a horse is perceived to be relatively predictable
As someone who used to ride, with a horse mad family (my mother used to be a Pony Club District Commissioner, and my brother trains event horses), this made me laugh. Predictable… ha!
unless the person overtaking does something stupid, whereas dogs are perceived to be a total liability unless on a short lead?
The horses you meet on the trails are on a lead rein, or are being ridden. Unless you are on the land they are grazed on, they are never running free. Dogs are often running free, that is very often absolutely fine. However, those that are not yet trained to recall rather than chase or bother people should be on a lead when there are other people around. It’s not a hard concept. Amazed that it’s even worth debating.
if you spook a horse people including the rider could get killed.
That's all the more reason that horse riders shouldn't take horses out of environments that they can't completely control, though.
I would agree with you - especially given that when I was in the netherlands I met horses that were not spooked by bicycles - but thats not the way the law sees it.
Horse riders ( like dog owners) are liable for any damage caused and most if not all carry insurance.
Damn you! I was just about to ask if they were sausage dogs
If it’s any consolation, that’s better than mine.
I was going to ask if they were bagels.
The quote thing is the wrong way round and it turns out to not be funny on reading back...
You can’t bread a bagel, you can bread a hot dog or a sausage (that’s a corn dog).
I have to fight the urge to not just steer into a growling, snarling dog that is chasing after me on the bike.
Mostly I stop and wait for the owner to try and get control of the dog.
Sometimes though I just keep riding at a speed where the dog can just about keep up, I'm sure they find their way back eventually.
Dog walkers make and maintain great trails.
Horse riders only destroy great trails.
What about them bloody sheep! Sh&&&ing everywhere and then getting in your way when descending a cracking gravel path.
Best comment I've had from the owner of a dog that had just bitten me (and drawn blood) was " Well, he's never bitten anyone before. So it must just be you" 🤔
What about them bloody sheep! Sh&&&ing everywhere and then getting in your way when descending a cracking gravel path.
Karma for being a groveller
What’s the divisor here?
Could it be that plenty of us have managed to own dogs without getting in the way of other people, so we know that it's actually a pretty simple thing to do, and that the inconsiderate dog owner is literally that?
Pretty much, it isn't difficult but takes effort, consistency and patience. Not a handful of visits to a dog trainer and job done.
Best comment I’ve had from the owner of a dog that had just bitten me
To be fair, our dog goes crazy for squirrels. 🐿
😁
Sorry, I missed this reply.
1) – I tolerate both – just do what the law and basic morals dictate
What happens when "the law and basic morals" clash? You were the one waxing lyrical on page 2 about being bothered by other people's dogs whilst minding your own business. "I have seen this many times. I do not want your dog coming up to me at all." Which is it, do you tolerate them or not?
And I agree with you, I don't want unknown and unpredictable animals running up to me either. But your stance seems somewhat contradictory.
2) – – No I understand why the law is like this.
YO have now veered into being very patronising with your attitude towards a well worked out code and a system that works well. Please read up on it if you ever come north of the border
I couldn't give a toss about the code, I'd never heard of it until you brought it up. I'm unlikely to ever find myself in Scotland with a dog or or a horse given the number of dogs and horses I own.
Pretty much, it isn’t difficult but takes effort, consistency and patience. Not a handful of visits to a dog trainer and job done.
Doesn't even have to take that. When I am walking in public with my dogs they are on a lead and don't go near anyone. That is very easy to do.
But just as with cycling, loose out of control dogs are as much a problem when out walking my dogs as they are very small (2kg) so there is a risk of attack from loose dogs.
Its completely unacceptable
could be a robins face next time
Trigger warning. I **** love Robin! Batman's great too.
What’s the divisor here? That horses deserve more respect because they are better placed to **** us up?
There are several
1. Horse behaviour is rather predictable, dog behaviour is not.
2. Dogs are now EVERYWHERE: cafes, shops, icecream parlours, hairdressers, you name it. Horses are in the countryside.
3. Horses are rare (~250k of them) Dogs are not (12million)
If people want to continue to treat dogs like people/children, with significant assumption of rights and sensitivities associated to them, they should be expected to have them trained to behave well in that society.
People and things that can't are invariably isolated/contained/constrained by law. There's no direct law for leashing your dog, but the animals act of 71 states that it MUST be under control and that it IS a criminal offence for a dog to be dangerously out of control, this includes chasing a person/bike.
1. Horse behaviour is rather predictable, dog behaviour is not.
If horse behaviour was predictable, we wouldn't need to ride / drive past them at 5mph to avoid potentially spooking them and throwing the rider off. They might be more predictable than dogs, but it's not black and white. E.g. I've had a horse rear up towards me when I rode past it very slowly from behind it on a double-wide track. Hooves at face-height do focus the mind a bit. This happened on a shared-use track (where seeing cyclists is to be expected) because the rider didn't have full control over their animal and it was spooked by someone trying hard not spook it! I'd have been better off not slowing down.
Risk management is part of my job. You typically have two factors,* likelihood and severity.
The relative severity of the outcome of a horse attack vs a dog attack is arguably very high, yes. I’d probably take on a pissed-off dog over a pissed-off horse. But the likelihood of a horse attack happening in the first place is vanishingly small.
Yes. What I was trying to say is that I personally will take a low risk of being nipped over a very low risk of being trampled and killed. I'm aware that other people may put different values on the relative severity, even if the absolute likelihood of each occurrence is known (obviously it is not). P.S. Your reply came across as a bit patronising.
I just find the horse thing really weird and anachronistic. "Hello, is that the council? Hi, I'd like to ride my pet Zebra on a public road, just for funsies. Is that OK? No, no, it's not dangerous at all, I've trained it. Well, I mean, there's only a relatively small risk of trampling someone. Oh, and it's probably best if everyone else slows right down and gives it a wide berth because, you know, unpredictability." Not in a million years would that pass, but our laws (and apparently our culture) make allowances for this because it was a reasonable form of transport until ~100 years ago.
1. Horse behaviour is rather predictable, dog behaviour is not.
🤣
No, horses are unpredictable. One of the reasons we don't let them loose on the roads, or bridlepaths, or parks, or.... Unless you're crossing the land they're grazed on, they're going to be on a lead rein or have a rider on them. Dogs can be trained to recall on voice or other commands. Much more predictable. But until a dog is trained, we keep them on a lead where they will come into contact with other people. Or at least we should.
@Superficial - your comments could equally be applied to cars and their drivers, from whom we are at much more risk.
No, horses are unpredictable. One of the reasons we don’t let them loose on the roads, or bridlepaths, or parks, or
I take it you have never been to the New Forest? The 'loose' horses (5,000+ of them) in the New Forest are very predictable and I have ridden amongst them for 20 years.
The horses with riders on are another matter and they are often easily spooked.
@scotroutes
True. In fact, I had this exact conversation with my son as we walked to school this morning - this would all be much nicer if we didn't give up so much of our space to cars. But since 90% of the population probably considers cars a necessity (I'd probably be in agreement) I don't see that changing any time soon.
The ‘loose’ horses (5,000+ of them) in the New Forest are very predictable and I have ridden amongst them for 20 years
I've ridden though wild grazed ponies plenty of times. I've been involved with looking after them as well. I think I mentioned this on a previous page. Some ponies being predictable does not make them all predictable. Grazed ponies have never caused any issues for me. They tend to move away from cyclists [ please don't feed them people ]. I wouldn't let your average flighty horse kept for competition and leisure loose on a road though, or in any public space... and people don't. They do everything they can to avoid that.
Some ponies being predictable does not make them all predictable.
Replace 'some' will 'all' I have ever come across in 20 years of riding and encountering horses on pretty much every ride and it sort of does though.
I haven't been anywhere near as lucky with loose dogs and even this morning had to avoid one that was completely ignoring the owners commands.
1. Horse behaviour is rather predictable...
2. ... Horses are in the countryside.
Neither of those things are necessarily true. I've seen unpredictable horses and I've seen them ridden past my house.
P.S. Your reply came across as a bit patronising.
Sorry if that was the case, wasn't intentional.
Replace ‘some’ will ‘all’ I have ever come across in 20 years of riding and encountering horses on pretty much every ride and it sort of does though.
You don't encounter loose unpredictable horses on your rides, because the unpredictable ones are on a lead rein, or are being ridden, and are grazed away from the public. Or at least should be. You can tell me I'm wrong if you want, but then we can exchange knowledge and experience about horses. I could get quite boring about it.
I haven’t been anywhere near as lucky with loose dogs and even this morning had to avoid one that was completely ignoring the owners commands.
Unpredictable and untrained dogs should also be on a lead. As (nearly) everyone seems to be saying. That is not all dogs. People should not have to put up with being chased by dogs. I'm entirely on your side here. Dogs without recall shouldn't be loose when there are other people around, on bikes or otherwise.
If horse behaviour was predictable, we wouldn’t need to ride / drive past them at 5mph to avoid potentially spooking them and throwing the rider off.
No, horses are unpredictable. One of the reasons we don’t let them loose on the roads, or bridlepaths, or parks, or….
Which is why their behaviour is predictable. You KNOW that a horse can be easily spooked. You also KNOW that it's not going to chase you down the road. You don't KNOW either of these things in relation to any dog you meet.
Horses are a flight animal in all but the most dire of circumstances. Dogs can be fight or flight.
So, horses are predictably unpredictable, whereas dogs are unpredictably unpredictable?
I think I need a lie down.
I don't slow down for a dog. If it gets spooked, it gets a fright, nae big issue.
I do slow down for horses. If it gets spooked, someone (ie the rider) could be seriously hurt.
I'm not that bothered if I ride into a dug, a horse, sod that. 🙂
Which is why their behaviour is predictable. You KNOW that a horse can be easily spooked. You also KNOW that it’s not going to chase you down the road.
So... they're predictable because their unpredictability should have been predicted?
If the injury is the same, I honestly don't care if it's administered by a hateful mutt or a compassionate but lily-livered horse.