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Yay! A new dog haters thread, it's been at least a couple of days since the last one.
Some people with dogs are ****s
Some people with horses are ****s
Some people are ****s
Personally for most stuff I deal with it using the @kayak23 approach, occasionally, not.
There's some fairly well traveled multi use paths near me, invariably the worst ****s using it are the cyclists, expecting everyone else to jump into the hedgerows and tutting and berating people who've had the audacity to impede their progress. Some of them could do with being chewed by a dog from time to time.
I'll be polite, friendly etc with dogs/owners provided they are under control and cause me no problem. If the dog is a bit wandering and I have to manouvre/slow to avoid it I don't get too excited about that if the owner is at least taking some steps to control.If I do something silly when riding that is bad for them I'll certainly apologise.
If the owner just let their dog come rushing up at me in a way that I feel might be dangerous I'll speak to the owner in strong but still politish terms... not swearing. If I get no or negative response I'll let rip very forcefully and unpleasantly.
The other day I was on a sort of fireroad linking some trails. Out the woods came these two dogs and a woman. Both dogs started barking and snarling viciously. The woman said nothing and avoided any eye contact with me. I called to her to get them under control. No reponse. The next thing is that one of the dogs rushed up towards my legs (I was riding slowly) and made a lunge towards me.I gave it an almighty kick in the head before it got me, the dog yelped and fell over. The woman still said and did nothing.
Frankly, I couldn't give stuff whether it was dog or the owners fault. The bottom line is that the end result either way is unacceptable.
I ride around the Steyning/ Chanctonbury area a lot. Dog walkers can be an issue - but they are generally confined to some areas - best idea is to low down, be patient and y=use a bell. That said, I have run over a dog before now - and ended up in a thorn bush as a result. And I was bitten by one last year - but the owner was the issue not really the dog
But as we are going set up a new forum / mag for the dog haterz can we also do one for "Fellow mountain bikers behaving like absolute tits". Round here they are more of an issue than the occasion dog interface.
Its nothig to do with hating dogs - you make our point for us. Its wanting nothing to do with your dog. keep it under control and away from me and I am fine.
You show the classic entitlement of the dog owner. No criticism is acceptable, your dog can do as it wants and we cannot complain
Do dogs get religion? could start a war over that and what is the dogs opinion on the old shimano v hope debate?
Semi-relevant anecdote. I asked a woman to control her dog who was yapping at my ankles off the lead. She kept quiet, but when I asked her again, she said she wouldn't because I was riding on a footpath (she confirmed that the dog knew the type of of path). She'd also walked straight past and ignored a sign ~100m earlier stating that all dogs must be kept on leads because of ground-nesting birds.
Moron. I actually like dogs and wasn't scared, but the irony of her complete ignorance was staggering. She then started off on a rant about cyclists skipping red lights (this particular moor had no traffic lights).
You shouldn’t HAVE to of course but quite often, having a little more tolerance and understanding of others and their particular lifestyle kind of helps grease the wheels a little.
In principle, yes. But this isn't a lifestyle choice, it's the law of the land. Violent crime is a lifestyle too.
In this case, the law is pretty straight forwards about what is and isn't acceptable. I don't excuse breaking the law for anyone else who puts me or my anyone else at risk, and dog owners don't deserve special treatment.
Yay! A new dog haters thread
Weird huh, when most of the folk who've expressed a opinion on the thread have gone out of their way to explain that on the whole they don't mind dogs, and yet your take-away is not to perhaps wonder if folk could do more to stop unwanted interactions but just lazily label those people as Haters. Well done you.
A dog dangerously pout of control as defined in the act is a criminal matter and dog owners have been prosecuted and dogs put down under the act
They have, but I'd be very surprised if a typical dog attacking a cyclist as a one off / first offence resulted in the dog being destroyed.
Personally when riding I treat dogs like I do with children when I am riding: I assume they are all not properly under control even if on lead/reins and liable to dart out in front of me, and do my best to avoid the yappy little things! Being British - if one of them does cause me some difficulty then I will apologise even it was not my fault.
Yay! A new dog haters thread, it’s been at least a couple of days since the last one.
It isn't a haters thread.
It may also serve folk well to understand the frustration among so many of us around the sheer number of dogs, the continual low level frustrations daily with dogs (even those with responsible owners) and the regular high level of frustrations by the actions of a selfish and ignorant few.
I am sure many will criticise me for my decision to have kids (pesky things, that have caused more than a few issues along the way and will continue to), my decision to drive a car etc etc etc. And so it is the same with dog ownership at the moment.
FWIW I have similar views over cat ownership - shit in others gardens, destroy biodiversity etc...
The person who now uses toddlers/children behaviour/actions as a comparison with badly behaved and dangerous dogs.
I'm not suggesting children bite people you big silly billy. As well you know. What a waste of time trying to score internet points suggesting I'm saying that.
Just saying we all have to exercise a little tolerance in life don't we? There's always other folks doing stuff that you might not particularly like. The best and easiest solution isn't always extreme keyboard violence is all. 🙄
Some toddlers and young kids do however wander all over footpaths unexpectedly away from their owners, into your path, 'out of control' as it were.
Charging through at full pelt will scare kids, just as it does dogs.
A scared kid will ball it's eyes out, a scared dog may well give chase. Understanding that fact may just makes things easier for everyone.
You just simply slow down and take care around them innit. Not really the end of the world.
Weird huh, when most of the folk who’ve expressed a opinion on the thread have gone out of their way to explain that on the whole they don’t mind dogs, and yet your take-away is not to perhaps wonder if folk could do more to stop unwanted interactions but just lazily label those people as Haters. Well done you.
Oh for ****s sake get over yourself, do I need to put smilies in for the hard of thinking? 😉
Human beings are generally selfish and self centered, you can spend your life moaning and bitching about it or you can accept that not everyone is the same as you, don't waste your time and energy whinging about the little things, these folk are in and out of your life within the blink of an eye.
And before someone else chimes in, no I wouldn't consider being bitten a little thing.
It had been a while since I was chased by a dog, but then it happened a few weeks ago. Completely non-descript forest path, everyone's allowed to be there, dinged the bell and gave the person walking the dog plenty of space, and 99% of the time this is fine but this time the dog chased me up the path for a fair old ways.
It gave up eventually, but left me thinking. Now what for the dog and the owner? Did it just run back down the path or was the owner then forced to spend the rest of their morning wandering around the woods and shouting its name?
a scared dog may well give chase
Why is ok to inflict such a creature on the public? As has been asked many times, why is it incumbent on members of the public, using any given path for their needs and wants, to understand how the particular tamed animal you own will react under a number of different scenarios? If the answer is "well, it's ok for me to own this animal just because, and it's easier for you if you make allowances for that", then my growing attitude of "I'll just kick it in the head if it gets close to me" is very justified.
I'm not even talking about slowing down for dogs. I already do that, as apparently as a society we have decided that people obliviously wandering on any path they please with a cloud of dogs running free is preferable to being able to efficiently use the path to get somewhere.
It's not even the topic of conversation. We're talking about dog owners who don't notice or don't care that their dog's behaviour is dangerous. Given the responses here, and in other places I've seen this topic come up, it seems we are a nation of dog coddlers who place their whims over everything else.
don’t waste your time and energy whinging about the little things
Out of control dogs isn't a "little thing" for many people. Please stop dismissing people's concerns.
I love dogs, grew up with them, and my mum still breads them, but can see that there is a real issue here.
Does highway code rule 56 not infer a criminal offence if breached.
No, it’s not a legal requirement.
Covered by the Road Traffic Act surely -
"27 Control of dogs on roads.
(1)A person who causes or permits a dog to be on a designated road without the dog being held on a lead is guilty of an offence."
Given the number of dogs around these days combined with the general dont-give-a-shit-ness of their owners I'd personally I'd like that to be extended to all public spaces except where a specific exception is made, as in some parts of the US where there are special enclosed areas in parks where you can let your dog off its lead.
these folk are in and out of your life within the blink of an eye.
I see the one dog that chased me on the bike while I was carrying my boy to nursery, every time I ride to nursery. He's getting better, but the owner still has to hold the dog back every he sees me.
I see the one dog that chased me on the bike while I was carrying my boy to nursery, every time I ride to nursery. He’s getting better, but the owner still has to hold the dog back every he sees me.
It sounds like the owner is at least making an effort though, where other owners don't care or are oblivious.
It sounds like the owner is at least making an effort though
For some reason, he is making an effort to train what is clearly a working-bred collie with very strong instincts on a highly-trafficked public space. Given the low standards expressed here and elsewhere, I suppose I should be greateful that he was very apologetic after the dog chased me for a considerable distance with a toddler on my bike, and forced me to accelerate to a high speed on a very busy path. It was this particular event that convinced me that urban dog owners should not be allowed anything but small fluffy mutts, and that should also not be an excuse for them not to be trained.
Edit: As I mentioned when I originally told this story, another dog-owner took it upon himself to interrupt my interaction with the collie owner to literally yell in my face about my choice of language when I eventually scared the collie away, telling me it was bad for my little boy. Talk about obliviously self-entitled!
Given some of the responses here, I guess I should have understood what I was dealing with, and come to a stop at a safe distance and out of the dog's eyeline, to allow the training session to be completed, before resuming my journey to nursery and then to work. Because it's more important to tolerate the beadth of dog behaviour than to actually get anywhere.
Human beings are generally selfish and self centered
On the whole actually I find most folks aren't, which is why one ones who can't be arsed to train their dogs, or leave it members of public to control their dogs for them stand out.
these folk are in and out of your life within the blink of an eye.
until the next one comes along...
It’s probably easier to accept that some other people love dogs and some of those other people will not have absolute control of their dogs and then adapt our own approach to take account of that.
Is it?
I mean it's easier for the owners of the Fwuffy woof woofs but the rest of us? How is our life made "easier" by having to plan for other people's random acts of negligent ****tery?
The thing is those of us out cycling alone or with family on shared use (NCN type) paths increasingly seem to encounter out of control dogs and their (sometimes quite angry) owners.
Yes it's very Zen to tell people not to get so upset, and you're right, there should be no anger involved we should simply take a dispassionate, zero tolerance approach; Get Mr Snuggles under control or he has to have an extra long nap, that seems pretty reasonable to me.
A bit of enforcement is often what's missing (much like with your bad driver analogy), where there are no repercussions for failing to meet the minimum standard, people will continue to not bother. Take away your Car or Dog because you can't be trusted and other people's safety is at risk, you'll either sort yourself out or lose that particular privilege
You just simply slow down and take care around them innit. Not really the end of the world.
I think the issue is we mostly already do this, and yet a significant proportion of the yapping, off the lead ****ers still manage to go for ankles and knock people over.
Ultimately it's probably related to the uptake of "pandemic pooches" a larger proportion of people who were never really fit to be dog owners have now gotten one, and now we all have to work around more of them, which we will do of course. But don't be surprised if people voice some discontent...
I think the issue is we mostly already do this, and yet a significant proportion of the yapping, off the lead **** still manage to go for ankles and knock people over.
Exactly this.
Sadly a lot of folk end up with the wrong dog and also don't appreciate how much effort it takes to train them and look after them.
Mine is as good as gold and I can walk him anywhere off lead (I don't because I appreciate not everyone likes dogs) he doesn't chase anything except his tennis ball and doesn't approach other people unless they initiate it. He's been complemented a few times and one woman asked how long it has taken to train him, 9 years... Oh, how old is he, 9 years. Her dog at the time was bouncing around like Zebedee on his lead. It's hard work training then and sadly a lot of folk can't be bothered. They're great when they're a puppy, then the novelty wears off and they end up with an unruly dickhead trashing the house for another 10-15 years.
I love dogs, grew up with them, and my mum still breads them
Are they hot dogs?
Damn you! I was just about to ask if they were sausage dogs
I spoke with a dog owner recently on a bike ride (who had great control of her off the lead dog) about the growing number of untrained dogs about. Probably due to lockdown. She was was worried that they would give all dog owners a bad name.
I found it a refreshing view from a dog owner.
Are they hot dogs?
Corn dogs?
It sounds like you are a very responsible dog owner. I'm not sure why you chose to be so dismissive previously, when it comes to mis-trained and potentially death-dealing animals. It's not a "little thing". A dog can bite in the "blink of an eye". It's already absurd that we are all expected to slow whatever we are doing to allow the safe passage of Buster, and that's only the start. My wife is scared of dogs, especially ones she doesn't know, and dogs also know this. The more bad-tempered ones will act up - why is it acceptable for members of the public to own animals that prey on the scared?
How many stories do you read about off-the-lead children maiming or killing someone.
how many stories do you read about off-the-lead dogs maiming or killing cyclists?
IME dogs v cyclists is not about them actually biting you its about them getting in the way so you either hit them or swerve and risk falling off. Kids are the same. Perhaps we automatically compensate more for kids so don't get as many high risk encounters?
Obviously some people do get bitten by dogs when riding and some do get chased by angry dogs. But the question might be, if some reactions by cyclists make an "enthusiastic poorly controlled dog" into an "aggressive out of control one"? Its a little bit like dealing with car drivers in that regard - when they start you can either escalate the situation or de-escalate it.
FWIW if you ride in the wrong places you can also get kids throwing stones or aiming BB guns at you! Rest assured that if that happens to me, or a snappy dog actually gets its teeth near me, and there's a parent/owner that I can find then I'm probably not going to be Mr Calm and Civilised... in reality though I'd probably give the kid / dog more excitement and make them more likely to do it again!
Kayak – why should I have to alter my behaviors to my detriment to allow for the fact people do not control their dogs?
Victim blaming
and
I don’t buy that argument about chilling out because it”s bound to happen very compelling.
The same argument could be applied to any crime against the person. Rape, murder etc. Just adapt your behaviour so it’s less likely to happen. Don’t go out on your own at night, don’t challenge a violent partner…
It is and it isn't. Taking precautions is not an equivalence to absolving blame.
Should you have to learn how to 'deal with dogs'? No.
Should you have to accept dogs in your personal space? No.
Should you have to smile and nod when you ride though a huge sloppy dog egg? No.
However. The uncomfortable fact is that dogs exist and many are owned by rampant cockwombles. So whilst you absolutely 100% shouldn't have to deal with them, you might have to. It's not your fault but it might happen, and from comments here it demonstrably does and often.
It's like proclaiming "I had right of way!" when you've just been left-hooked by a Ford Transit. Yes, you did, but unfortunately for you the van driver didn't give a **** and thought he was more important. You don't even pay road tax. Doesn't everyone like vans anyway?
Damn you! I was just about to ask if they were sausage dogs
If it's any consolation, that's better than mine.
So whilst you absolutely 100% shouldn’t have to deal with them, you might have to
What does that look like, if not a boot in the dog's face? By the time you have politely exhausted all other options, there's not much else you can do.
Whenever I encounter a dog on the path off lead, I slow down or stop, say hello, maybe even make friends, especially if it's a young dog.
That way, the dog learns it doesn't need to be scared of bikes, hopefully helping to reduce any tendency to fear-aggression.
Thinking about it, I can't remember a single time I've been chased by an aggressive dog, though. Only friendly ones. My tactics for dealing with an 'aggressive' dog probably wouldn't be all that different.
IME dogs v cyclists is not about them actually biting you its about them getting in the way so you either hit them or swerve and risk falling off.
Early-on in my reborn cycling habit, I was riding down a canal towpath. Up ahead was a woman with a mid-sized dog. She presumably saw me inbound, sat the dog down, so she was stood over on one side of the path and the dog on the other. "Great," I thought, "someone with a well-trained dog."
Then when I was pretty much right on top of them she went "come on!" and the hound excitedly darted across the towpath. I was riding around walking pace, if I were going any faster I'd have either stood the bike on its nose or carved the dog in half. Why? Why would you do that?
People, man. Some of them shouldn't be allowed out in public off-lead, I couldn't see her handler anywhere.
But the question might be, if some reactions by cyclists make an “enthusiastic poorly controlled dog” into an “aggressive out of control one”? Its a little bit like dealing with car drivers in that regard – when they start you can either escalate the situation or de-escalate it.
What kind of "reactions"? You mean "the cyclist gave the dog the finger and generally wound it up", or "the cyclist showed fear, and that's a no-no with this particular Buster"? If you have no idea of a dog's temperament or training, there's no such thing as "de-escalating".
If I'm cycling along at an arbitrarily low speed, and encounter a dog (which I don't know from Adam) who will chase a bike no matter what, wtf am I supposed to do? I'm sure as hell not going to stop, especially if my kids are involved, becase what if Buster is the kind of dog that likes to give people a nip if he's excited? Like I said, responses like yours that give a huge pass to unacceptable dog behaviour convince me more and more that a boot to the head is the acceptable response.
Should you have to learn how to ‘deal with dogs’? No.
Do you also take this approach with horses and their riders?
Or just expect them to fit around you?
Whenever I encounter a dog on the path off lead, I slow down or stop, say hello, maybe even make friends, especially if it’s a young dog.
When I pass dogs literally every minute on a half hour ride? ( north edinburgh cycleway) I ping my bell in plenty of time, I slow a bit. thats plenty
Do you also take this approach with horses and their riders?
I've answered this. I don't encounter horses being broken in on my cycle to nursery. I don't encounter people with numerous untrained horses, taking delight in the pandemonium. I don't have to stop my journey to wait for numerous horses to stop play-fighting while their owners natter about the weather.
I encounter horses on well-known paths, and in an appropriate setting (ie, the country). I've also yet to meet a badly-trained one, or had any encounter that had any risk of me being ejected from my bike and young kids being put in harm's way.
Actually, that's not quite true, living in Cardiff and having trained heavily on the coast road to Newport on the road bike, but that's a different story.
if not a boot in the dog’s face?
In nearly all cases I can think of, you will end up regretting this a lot more than a genuinely aggressively dog would. 🙂
What does that look like, if not a boot in the dog’s face?
Likely kicking the wrong bitch.
Of course dog owners should keep their pets under control; of course they should be on a lead if they can't be trusted;* of course they should poop-scoop after them; of course they should acknowledge that not everyone loves dogs, or even specifically their dog, as much as they do; of course they should recognise that some people just don't want a 'friendly' dog with muddy paws gambolling through their picnic. And of course, many owners do. But some don't.
What the solution is, I don't know. You can only control, well, what you can control.
(* - and the dog...)
Just putting this here for balance.
https://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/to-the-guy-on-the-pivot-and-his-riding-buckden-woods-tonight/
In nearly all cases I can think of, you will end up regretting this a lot more than a genuinely aggressively dog would
Well then, sounds like I need to start carrying a baseball bat, or maybe a nastier dog.
There's just the rub. Owning an animal that can cause severe injuries and death is a huge responsibility, yet even here quite a few people think we should accept badly-trained examples and somehow "de-escalate" things. How do I know that the barking dog I'm talking to nicely and bending down to get to know isn't just going to bite me? I don't know what makes your particular free-range four-legged fruitloop calm down.
Edit: I already do plenty, mostly because I have no choice. I slow down when I see dogs on huge extending leads or running free, or maybe who just look like trouble, sometimes down to walking pace. I give some dogs a wide berth, maybe I'll get my kids on the other side of me. If I think the owner has a chance of getting their dog under control, I'll ring my bell in plenty of time. If those actions are not enough, then there's something else wrong. And even so, I find this excessively accomodationg behaviour, for someone else's pet.
Do you also take this approach with horses and their riders?
Or just expect them to fit around you?
I honestly find it weird that horse riders expect everyone to know how to behave properly around horses.
I mean, I do, and I don't have many issues - but I think it's strange that horse riders expect that everyone else has grown up around horses and has gone to horse school. I've been shouted at for not being "more helpful" despite having come to a complete stop on the other side of the road and said hello and everything.
I see much more entitlement from horse riders than dog walkers, as a rule. Dog walkers mostly say hello back to me, at least.
Several major differences with horses
1) Its a much less frequent occurrence - once every few months for me compared to dozens to hundred of times a ride
2) a spooked horse could kill or seriously injure not just me but the rider
3) Its easy to act in such a way around horses so as not to spook the horse. You call to the horse rider ( never use your bell) and the horse rider will do whatever is needed to allow a safe pass and the horse riders are always grateful and thankful IME unlike dog owners that I have been shouted at by when I have made them aware of my presence and they do nothing to control the mutt and even shout at me for cycling by
It does annoy me that horses are so badly trained around cycles tho - riding in the Netherlands horses do not spook at bicycles. However the detriment to me of doing what I do is minimal ( unlike with dogs because of the frequency), the riders are always polite unlike dog owners and the risks are far greater with horses
so a completely invalid comparison.
Whenever I encounter a dog on the path off lead, I slow down or stop, say hello, maybe even make friends, especially if it’s a young dog.
Really? 🧐
What if you and/or the dog don't want to be friends?
Interesting that Aidy and I have very different experiences with horse riders. Not a judgement just I find it interesting.
Do you also take this approach with horses and their riders?
Or just expect them to fit around you?
I can count the number of out-of-control horses I've encountered on the fingers of one foot. If however half a ton of meat were to come galloping up at me (hopefully) wanting to be my friend, whilst its rider was nowhere to be seen, then **** yes I'd want them to "fit around me."
Your logical fallacy is: false equivalence.
3) Its easy to act in such a way around horses so as not to spook the horse. You call to the horse rider ( never use your bell)
Sorry TJ, but I know you like a devil's advocate argument,
You've just argued against being expected to know how to handle dogs and then in favour of being expected to know how to handle horses.
What if you and/or the dog don’t want to be friends?
What if you were supposed to know that Buster doesn't like strangers? However, from dorset_knob's somewhat bucolic description, I suspect that he typically encounters the occasional excitable puppy being taken out for a walk in the country by well-intentioned folks. As a city-dweller, that's not my experience. In fact, as an edge-of-the-city dewller, it's probably worse, becuase people think they are close enough to "the country" to own a big dog, but there's still a lot of people around. There's also, frankly, a lot of morons who just seem delighted by their little s***'s bad behaviour, and cannot comprehend why I would think any different.
Cougar -
did you bother to read my post?
significant major differences the main one being
Its a much less frequent occurrence – once every few months for me compared to dozens to hundred of times a ride
Its really not comparable and IIRC treated very differently in law at least in Scotland
Edit - I also do a very similar thing with both - alert the person in charge and wait for them to do what they need to.
From the code
Walking your dog
– Do not allow your dog to approach animals or people uninvited – where possible avoid animals. – Always keep your dog in sight and under control – if in doubt use a lead
HOrses and thier riders come under the general rules - ie don't be a dick -
cyclist responsibilities
Access rights extend to cycling. Cycling on hard surfaces, such as wide
paths and tracks, causes few problems. On narrow routes, cycling may
cause problems for other people, such as walkers and horse riders. If this
occurs, dismount and walk until the path becomes suitable again. Do not
endanger walkers and horse riders: give other users advance warning of
your presence and give way to them on a narrow path.
so as you can see from the two they are treated very differently here.
Sorry TJ, but I know you like a devil’s advocate argument,
You’ve just argued against being expected to know how to handle dogs and then in favour of being expected to know how to handle horses.
Yeah, that's the thing.
Don't get me wrong, I generally believe that everyone needs to be considerate, which means being at least a little aware of the challenges that other people face.
But it's a weird juxtaposition that you should have to know how to behave around horses, but dog owners should control their dogs around you.
significant major differences the main one being
OK. So, you’ve just argued against being expected to know how to handle a common occurrence and then in favour of being expected to know how to handle an unusual one? That makes even less sense.
IIRC treated very differently in law at least in Scotland
Does being in the right stop you getting licked, bitten, trampled or driven over? I'm not sure that your average shire horse is familiar with the Highway Code.
Are you against or in favour of taking precautions against other people's animals? This is your own argument, you can't have it both ways.
That list of cyclist responsibilities;
give other users advance warning of
your presence
In particular is routinely ignored in Edinburgh. I’d argue it’s more a significant minority that actually give advance warning rather that razz straight past cutting in as quick as possible before an oncoming cyclist (with a barstad bright light so everyone is blinded as well) gets there.
But it’s a weird juxtaposition that you should have to know how to behave around horses, but dog owners should control their dogs around you.
Don't get me started on the differing standards applied to their shit either.
Part of me thinks the deference we show to horsists is some sort of ancestral memory of feudalism. Then again its more likely that its just because horses are very big!
For me, it's related to how much trouble those animals cause me. Yes, I am careful around horses. At least where I live, if you encounter a horse on your MTB, it won't be the first time, you'll both be out in the woods somewhere, and you'll both be on your way with very little hassle.
I encounter dogs daily, and have a growing count of the number of times I've had an issue (I've noticed this a lot more now I have small kids). Typically the owner will not care. Several times, I've had the dog owner yell in my face for "doing it wrong". In my opinion, it should not be acceptable to own a pet in a densly-populated area that needs everyone else to modify their behaviour.
I'm also unclear on what people mean when they say I should know how to "handle" other people's dogs. I already give huge concessions, and know enough about body language with dogs to have very few actual problems. How are people who don't have that experience, or are unable to get it for whatever reason, supposed to cope?
Interesting that Aidy and I have very different experiences with horse riders. Not a judgement just I find it interesting.
There's probably a certain amount of confirmation bias.
I have very few issues with other road/trail users generally.
I say hello to everybody. As a group, I have the lowest rate of return from horse riders. Those that do tend to be quite cheery and grateful that people are aware of how to behave considerately around them.
Don’t get me started on the differing standards applied to their shit either.
To be fair, horse shit is mostly hay. No-one ever went to a garden centre to buy a bag of dog shit to fertilise their garden.
I’m not sure that your average shire horse is familiar with the Highway Code.
If a shire horse is loose, unless you're crossing the land they're kept on, it's a mistake. One the owner will be keen to have rectified. Not really comparable to letting a dog loose among other people, or on the road, when you know it's not ready for it.
But it’s a weird juxtaposition that you should have to know how to behave around horses, but dog owners should control their dogs around you.
Now it isn't. Slow down, pass wide or stop, be nice, don't be aggressive, don't approach. Same for both. Being chased by a dog is not that same as stupidly scaring a horse by not being attentive of its needs. Anyway running into a dog on the lead is just as socially out of order as someone running into a horse on the lead, or with a rider onboard. Being respectful for and careful of other trail users does not cover what to do when a dog you don't know is coming at you.
Aye, Horse shit doesn't bother me either tbh, as it's generally the size of a breezeblock, if you rode through one of those, then maybe you need to get the eyes tested!.
Most folk that ride round here are just ordinary folks, not some kind of upper class character from a Jilly Cooper novel type entitled ****.
Now it isn’t. Slow down, pass wide or stop, be nice, don’t be aggressive, don’t approach. Same for both. Being chased by a dog is not that same as stupidly scaring a horse by not being attentive of its needs.
Noone's saying do anything other than that here.
But you're kinda illustrating the point here that if *despite* doing that, the dog chases you, it's the owner at fault, but if the horse spooks regardless of all effort, you somehow didn't try hard enough, and you were "stupid".
Cougar - not the highway code - the scottish access code
Under that its the dog owners responsibility to control their mutt and to not let it bother anyone else
with horses its the cyclists responsibility to not scare the horse
so all I am doing is following the scottish access code
with rights come responsibilities. I do not know why yo are making out horses and dogs are equivalent when its clear from the access code as quoted that they are treated very differently. Yo may think this is wrong in law but its waht the law and code says.
No beer - I hit a frozen horse shit once, that really was like hitting a breeze block
the dog chases you, it’s the owner at fault
Not always. But in the "oh sorry, he doesn't like bikes" situation, where the owner knows the dog chases bikes, the dog should be on the lead, not loose.
if the horse spooks regardless of all effort, you somehow didn’t try hard enough, and you were “stupid”
In the unlikely scenario where the horse is let loose around bikes, and while loose starts to kick out people on bikes, then whoever is responsible for letting that horse loose would be seen to be utterly out of order.
EDIT: just thought of quite a few times where I have had to ride though loose horses, I can see how that would intimate some people just as much as loose dog. They've all been moorland ponies, or going through the land where the horses are kept though.
Don’t get me started on the differing standards applied to their shit either.
One contains substances known to be toxic and cause blindness, and one doesn't?
I try to be careful, cautious and polite around horses and dogs, but as others have said, horses rarely come up to me unattended wanting to be friends or bite me. Therein lies the key difference. Horses are not likely to attack, they are prey animals and bolt when taken by surprise.
Lucky round here to have a great network of tracks and bridleways for riding, which mean we see horses regularly and "should" know how to ride around them, and they are pretty used to us. Though I'm embarrassed to say that a club ride last week did go past a horse and rider too fast and close and the guys quite rightly got a bollocking from the rider.
Luckily when I went round a blind corner too fast yesterday the horse coming the other way was clearly used to idiots.
wrong post!
Cougar – not the highway code – the scottish access code
Ah, apologies. Let me rephrase:
I’m not sure that your average shire horse is familiar with the Scottish Access Code.
I do not know why yo are making out horses and dogs are equivalent
I'm not beyond "they're both animals." Rather I'm contesting your notion that the onus is on non-owners to learn about one but not the other. In one breath you're arguing that you shouldn't have to learn how to deal with someone else's dog, in the next you're talking "of course" about not ringing a bell near a horse. I didn't know that, I thought that announcing your presence behind a horse would be preferable to appearing at its side by surprise.
As MCTD nailed, horses are prey animals and dogs are predators. Which d'you think poses the greater risk?
when its clear from the access code as quoted that they are treated very differently. Yo may think this is wrong in law but its waht the law and code says.
Sorry, I'm not clear. Is it the law or the access code which will stop you getting bitten or stood on?
C'mon man. You can't put one down to the law and call the other victim blaming. You're cherry-picking burden of responsibility.
Barabara Woodhouse had a good solution for dogs that don't like bikes - 7m 50s in:
horses are prey animals and dogs are predators. Which d’you think poses the greater risk?
...kind of depends.
"Oh sorry he doesn't like bikes"
So what does he eat?
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/south-korea-dog-meat-ban-president-moon-jae-in/
In one breath you’re arguing that you shouldn’t have to learn how to deal with someone else’s dog
Did I miss the bit where you told us exactly how to deal with an unknown loose dog coming at you? Especially one that "doesn't like bikes" ?
I rode some DH in Nepal with a guide and he was rather adept at flicking the back end of his bike out in such a way that it pelted stones at the wild dogs taking a bit too much interest. 😳 Some of them are properly scary though.
Cougar - which bit of this are you not understanding?
"under the scots access law and guidance dogs and horses are treated differently"
" the dogs owner has the responsibility to control the dog, the cyclist has responsibility to not frighten the horse"
You’re cherry-picking burden of responsibility.
Nope I am not - the guidance makes it very clear where the responsibility lies. with dogs its the dog owner, with horses the cyclist has responsibilities.
I know to those of you down south this mix of rights and responsibilities we have up here is alien especially when they are qualified rights but thats how it is
I'm sure that'll be a great comfort in hospital when Dobbin was only being friendly.
Your logical fallacy is: false equivalence.
If the logic was inconsistent, no equivalence, false or otherwise, could be drawn.
So 'false equivalence' would imply 'logical consistency'.
In the unlikely scenario where the horse is let loose around bikes, and while loose starts to kick out people on bikes, then whoever is responsible for letting that horse loose would be seen to be utterly out of order.
It's not loose horses. Some horses spook easily, and riders struggle to control them.
More seriously,
You're arguing the letter of the law. If legislation were changed tomorrow so that the picnic-er had responsibility to not frighten (or otherwise antagonise) the dog, would you revise your opinion? Are you only tolerating horses and not tolerating dogs because an access code the rest of the UK has likely never heard of tells you to?
Some horses spook easily, and riders struggle to control them.
Some dogs spook easily, and walkers struggle to control them.
As MCTD nailed, horses are prey animals and dogs are predators. Which d’you think poses the greater risk?
Outside of the mental dogs that psycho people own, probably a horse? They can weigh a literal ton and have potential to cause loads of damage, trample people etc. I appreciate some people may be more worried about getting nipped by dogs. But risk of serious injury, to me? 100% horses pose the greater risk.