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... is the cry of badly trained dog owners across the land.
Well I don't like ****s with badly trained dogs who knock me off my bike, but here we are.
Twice in 2 weeks I've been bundled into by a massive, off the lead, dog. Both times the owners felt that "he doesn't like bikes" was an adequate excuse.
On both occasions me suggesting some training for both dog and owners was met with bad grace. ****s.
Had that before. Bitten by a collie at Mugdock with the rationale that he doesn't like bikes. My suggestion that perhaps he shouldn't be off the lead in a woods that's very popular with people in bikes was met with a blank stare
I think STW needs to open another forum for complaining about dogs. Maybe a sub-branded magazine like the Charged or GritCX. Stories about sausages in lawns would be very popular.
I’ve even had “he doesn’t like people with gloves on”! amongst many other such statements 😡
Been done to death on here in the past. However I don't think badly trained dogs (and owners) are ever going to go away anytime soon.
Wait for the dog loving folk on here to make one or more of the following statements:
1. You must have been at fault as they've owned a dog or been mountain biking for years and it's never happened to them.
2. It's not the dogs fault but the owners.
3. Everyone should love or at tolerate other people's dogs and if they don't then you're weird.
4. The dog was just playing so what's wrong with you?
5. If you go out on your bike in the country side then you should expect to see dogs and you must adjust your behavior as not to annoy or attract the dogs attention.
None of the above comments actually help when you've just had a dog chase you or knock you off your bike or has actually bitten you.
If it helps my dog is indifferent to bikes.
Clearly wasn't a 'trail dog', that's the issue.
How does it feel about your iPad? 🙂
2. It’s not the dogs fault but the owners.
That one is true though. Rest are just shit excuses. I had to clamber a tree once because someone’s Doberman “Doesn’t like beards or hats” I think I replied “I don’t like stupid ****s who don’t socialise or train their dogs but yet here we are”
No issues with well behaved dogs, or owners of said dogs. It's the owners of the buggers that chase or bark or growl or even bite you that I dislike.
Not the dog's fault it hasn't been trained properly.
Give the dog a good kick. If the owners will not teach them then that teaches the dog that attacking cyclists hurts
Or report to the police and have the dog put down,.
Its completely unacceptable
could be a robins face next time
Can I blunt and say that if your preferred method of dealing with this problem is to come on STW and complain about dog owners instead of reporting the attack to the police, you are part of the problem?
Smaller dogs respond well to a cleated foot in the face. I imagine the owners probably would too, but haven’t tried.
Recently I've had "if we'd known there would be bikes, we'd have had him on a lead".
...this was on part of the NCN...
@Aidy - we had almost the same yesterday.
"You shouldn't be riding here. Lots of dog walkers use this path."
On NCN, right next to the sign for it.
If it helps my dog is indifferent to bikes.
Same for mine. I have tried to get them interested in my hobby but they are not having it.
I usually find a steely glare and a vaguely aggressive 'just get hold of it please mate' works and if I'm in a bad mood I'll throw in some swearing as well rhymes with ducking. The older I get the less tolerant I become.
How does it feel about your iPad?
He likes to watch YouTube videos of cyclists falling off.
Bark, bark, snarl. "he's autistic". I sh!t you not 🙄
Got to ask the question based on A summary of other threads:
How to these dogs stand a chance against overweight 100kg weekend warriors on 20kg ebikes? 😂😂
There are actually laws about not having a dog under control in a public place. If a dog were to knock you off your bike, the Police might be interested. Getting the owners details or pics may make them realise its a serious issue.
the Police might be interested. Getting the owners details or pics may make them realise its a serious issue
Lovely idea, but in practice?
999, what service?
Police please, a naughty dog has knocked me off my bike.
....?
Also, what owner would willingly give you their details or let you take a photo 😆 if they don't care about their dog attacking you they're not going to give a toss are they?
The highlight of the one a couple of weeks ago was being called a C You Next Tuesday by the elderly lady owner of the dog.
I had the temerity to ask for her details as my rear mech got bent when her fur-baby knocked me off.
After dropping the C bomb on me I may have squirted her in the face with my water bottle. Didn't help the situation, but made me feel better 😉
Laws.... Too many and not enough police and courts to deal with the breakers of said laws.
When I chat with one my Polish colleagues about things like this, he's amused that I have any faith in the police and legal system. Same goes for politicians. I'm now beginning to think the same way.
Wonder if they do a bar mount 🤔
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bite-Back-Non-Toxic-Deterrent-50ml/dp/B075LPJ8PP
I did meet a dog owner indignant that they were being sued by a cyclist for knocking the cyclist off and injuring him
UN less the dog is "dangerously out of control" as defined in the dangerous dogs act then it would be a civil claim for damages. A dog owner is liable for damages caused and has no real defense.
How would they stop you taking a picture and you just follow them home / to their car if you want to identify the owner
A dog dangerously pout of control as defined in the act is a criminal matter and dog owners have been prosecuted and dogs put down under the act
I love dogs. They're one of my favourite animals. I grew up in a household that always had a big retriever type; high energy, high maintenance. I don't believe in bad dogs, only bad owners.
However, the three times that someone else's dog has gone for me or a mate while out riding, that dog has always come off worse. An SPD cleat to the snout is a fair deterrent for any mutt. The owner usually gets the message too. If they don't, they can come and chase us.
For the record, two times it was a Collie and the third a rat toy terrier.
UN less the dog is “dangerously out of control” as defined in the dangerous dogs act then it would be a civil claim for damages
Hate to break it to you. All dogs have to be kept under control at all times.
https://www.gov.uk/control-dog-public
I know that - but there is a big difference between " dangerously out of control" as in the dangerous drugs act which is a criminal offense and that is is what you have linked to. Note the word "dangerously" in the bit you linked to
Keeping your dog under control is a different issue and has different definitions in case law and is different in England and wales compared to Scotland and would not usually be a criminal offense if it is not under proper control but not "dangerous" as defined in the dangerous dogs act
would not usually be a criminal offense
Except it is. A dog doesn’t have to bite anyone to be out of control. Dogs should also have a collar and a tag too plus the chip as well.
Also, what owner would willingly give you their details or let you take a photo
Fortunately the law has thought of that and legally the dog has to have the contact details of its owner on its collar. Just grab the tag with the arm that fido does not have his teeth sunk in to.
I am ashamed to say my dog loves folding ebikes. If a family member leaves the house on foot or by car or a normal bike he is not particularly interested.
But If he knows one of our family has left the house on a folding ebike he forgets he is a sofa dwelling cavapoo and will attempt to follow the scent at speed and hunt the ebike down like some sort of demented fox hound. He will do this 30 minutes after the ebike has left, when everybody else has forgotten.
Poah - you are conflating two different things. Yes the dog should be under control at all times
There is the dangerous dogs act which narrowly defines a dog that is "dangerously out of control" and is a criminal offense and the dog can be put down
there is also various case law around "keeping your dog under control" which is a different definition and usually not a criminal offense and does not lead to the dog being put down but means the owner is liable in civil court for damage caused and also gives for example farmers the right to shoot a dog if in is not under control around livestock
Additionally in Scotland there are two different definitions - "under control" and " under close control" which are obligated on the owner under different circumstances.
I thought it was offence if a dog gave you reasonable belief you were in danger?
You can ask a dog owner for their details to pass on to the Police on the non emergency number. You can photograph pretty much anything or anyone you like in a public space, and if it's in connection with a potential criminal offence then public interest overrides any supposed right to privacy.
If the owner gets arsey about any of that then you are looking at increasingly severe criminal offences and a 999 call.
I thought it was offence if a dog gave you reasonable belief you were in danger?
Yes - thats one of the definitions under the dangerous dogs act for a dog that is "dangerously out of control"
Does highway code rule 56 not infer a criminal offence if breached. I.e dogs must be on short leads when on a road or path used by cyclists.
Does highway code rule 56 not infer a criminal offence if breached.
No, it’s not a legal requirement.
Does highway code rule 56 not infer a criminal offence if breached
Highway code isn't statute it's just a guide. Specifc bits are covered by some legislation eg speed limits.
This is why most prosecutions come under the generic 'careless' or 'dangerous' driving clauses (of The Road Traffic Act 1988). There's even furious cycling IIRC somewhere in the legislation EDIT: ‘wanton or furious cycling’ which is a criminal offence under section 35 of the Offences Against the Persons Act 1861 (as amended by the Criminal Justice Act 1948 s1(2))
I was once chased through a large park by a yappy little dog that clearly didn’t like bikes. I kept going, and going, and going. All the while the dog kept chasing me. I always wondered if the dog made it back to its owner or was kept on a lead after that!
There is the dangerous dogs act which narrowly defines a dog that is “dangerously out of control” and is a criminal offense and the dog can be put down
It's only a criminal offense in America.
I once saw a runner run into a dog and knock it over.
No excuse for a disobedient mutt but Mugdock park is 99% dog walkers, I'm thinking the point of bicycles is to get a bit further than the public park.
I was once chased through a large park by a yappy little dog that clearly didn’t like bikes. I kept going, and going, and going. All the while the dog kept chasing me
Quite often the issue.
Usually stopping is all it takes to make a dog stop chasing.
That's what I've always done. Yet to be bitten*
Would be interesting to know how many dog owning cyclists versus non-dog owning cyclists get bitten/chased.
I think a little understanding of animal behaviour can help often. Not always, but often.
*gets leg taken off tomorrow by an angry [s]Chiewow-waa[/s] Labrador.
It’s only a criminal offense in America.
The Dangerous Dogs Act is UK legislation
Highway code isn’t statute it’s just a guide. Specifc bits are covered by some legislation eg speed limits.
I realise that. Failure to comply with the dogs bit could for example potentially be prosecuted as reckless conduct under Scots law? Other laws are available.
Isn't the highway code similar to an Approved code of practice in health and safety law? I.e. an acop is not the law but it provides a benchmark for the standard that must be met to comply with the law so you do not have to have your dog on a lead as per rule 56 but if you do not, would need to prove that you had put measures in place which achieved the same thing.
The point is largely of academic interest as the highway code and rules for dogs are never enforced.
My dog just plods along beside me, and has good recall when needed, but I've lost count of the number of times mountain bikers have approached too fast and gone too close to him
A bit of basic courtesy in the other direction goes a long way to avoid an accident
Shouldn't need saying but I've experienced it many times
the number of times mountain bikers have approached too fast and gone too close to him
A bit of basic courtesy in the other direction goes a long way to avoid an accident
But that's not what I was describing in my original post. I always slow for dumb animals - dogs, horses, cows, dog owners, etc.
In fact, in both recent cases the dogs saw me a way off and ran at me. I stopped in the first case, and was nearly stationary in the second.
The first one I got the bike between me and the dog pretty quickly as it was going for my legs.
But hey, your dog's fine, so must be the cyclists fault in every case?
It’s only a criminal offense in America.
The Dangerous Dogs Act is UK legislation
It's definitely an offense in America 😉😆🇺🇸
there is a big difference between ” dangerously out of control” as in the dangerous drugs act
Ah so we are talking about dogs on smack?
No excuse for a disobedient mutt but Mugdock park is 99% dog walkers, I’m thinking the point of bicycles is to get a bit further than the public park.
What if you are cycling through the park to go somewhere else?
🙂
Might be better if they were on smack! Maybe some eccies?
No excuse for a disobedient mutt but Mugdock park is 99% dog walkers, I’m thinking the point of bicycles is to get a bit further than the public park
Weird post.
Thank you @andrewreay
😉
Would it be a bad thing to have a bar of chocolate to “reward” the dog (and ultimately the owner) for it’s behaviour?
(Obviously this is a joke, I have no intention of harming any pets in this way)
I would estimate about 2% of the owners had their mutt in any sort of control on my ride with the kids today. Also NCN path. One dozy woman even kicked the dogs ball directly in our path. Most are just completely oblivious to everyone without a dog.
I have a dog and have to say walking her along a NCN would just be totally stressful for both of us. Don't understand why anyone would do that
Lovely idea, but in practice?
999, what service?
Last time an Alsatian bit my leg whilst on a local railway path I asked the owners for their details (they gave them - I think they were more traumatised than me), and I phoned 101 after my ride. The police took it seriously.
You can ask a dog owner for their details to pass on to the Police on the non emergency number.
How do you envisage that's going to pan out?
"Pardon me sirrah, but I intend to report you and your faithful companion's actions to the peelers. Would you care to furnish me with your identity details?"
"Why of course my good sir, here's my card."
Would be interesting to know how many dog owning cyclists versus non-dog owning cyclists get bitten/chased.
I think a little understanding of animal behaviour can help often. Not always, but often.
Yeah I'm sure that particular stat is readily available...
Frankly I am tired of being told I have to be "understanding" of someone else's fluffy dickhead. It's their choice to own a dog, and their responsibility to control it.
I'm not interested in dogs, in the same way I'm not into bare Knuckle boxing, its fine if others are but why should I be forced to care?
I really can't see why I or anyone else should have to accommodate someone else's decision to own a dog and not train it properly...
Frankly I am tired of being told I have to be “understanding” of someone else’s fluffy dickhead. It’s their choice to own a dog, and their responsibility to control it.
I’m not interested in dogs, in the same way I’m not into bare Knuckle boxing, its fine if others are but why should I be forced to care?
Sure, that's absolutely true of course, but we're surrounded by things that are just a reality of life, like it or not. You're probably more likely to come across an excitable dog while out riding your bike than an excitable bare knuckle boxer.
Seems like a waste of energy getting furious with something that is likely never going to stop being a reality.
It's probably easier to accept that some other people love dogs and some of those other people will not have absolute control of their dogs and then adapt our own approach to take account of that.
Doesn't mean you have to go out and buy a subscription to Doggist Monthly or get paw print stickers all over your car or anything like that, but trying to understand something that you will most likely encounter fairly regularly regardless of your interest in it, and adapting your approach to that encounter so that it's more likely to be positive seems less futile.
It's a little like getting angry over other folks shit driving. We can and do get incredibly angry about it, but most of us also accept that we are fairly powerless to do much about the existence of it. All we really can do is alter our own approach to it. Hang back a bit, let them pass and be gone, wait until they've seen you, or whatever.
You can be right about someone else driving like a dick, and you'll be the rightest person in the bodyshop unfortunately. 😐
Apply that to dogs and dog owners and hopefully coexistence might become easier.
My partner is hugely into dogs and so I tend to see both angles. Dogs can be right knobbers but on the other hand, so can people on bikes.
Kayak - why should I have to alter my behaviors to my detriment to allow for the fact people do not control their dogs?
Victim blaming
I once got chased by a dog while taking my little boy out for ride in the bike trailer in my local woods, and then got yelled at by the dog owner because "I wasn't following his instructions" and "I didn't understand how dogs act". I grew up with dogs. I have no intention of being "understanding" of misbehaving, badly-trained, or inappropriate breeds of dog in a local wooded area that's very popular with families. We don't accept that "oh, I just couldn't help myself being really rad on that corner" is a good excuse for riding at inappropriate speeds, after all.
I understand that being relaxed and not getting worked up is the key to a happy life, but how exactly would it have helped me in that situation? It was the first time I'd come across the idea that members of the public need to know how to act around other people's dogs, for their own benefit. Maybe I'll raise my boy to be a narrow-minded thug, and when he beats people up, I'll tell them that they should know not to look at him the wrong way.
If that really is the 'reality of life', and as I'm not sitting in a large metal box on wheels for these situations (unlike your example about bad drivers), maybe I do need some form of defense.
Edit: I was also chased by an untrained collie, again with my little boy on the back of the bike while taking him to nursery. I confronted the owner, who was deeply apologetic, but another dog owner got in the middle of the conversation to yell at me for my choices of words during the incident. Really, they don't help themselves. Also, owning a working breed of dog in a city and attempting to train it on public land should be illegal.
I don't buy that argument about chilling out because it"s bound to happen very compelling.
The same argument could be applied to any crime against the person. Rape, murder etc. Just adapt your behaviour so it's less likely to happen. Don't go out on your own at night, don't challenge a violent partner...
Some actions are unacceptable, including bad driving, and it"s telling that when dogs are involved people don't like to be reminded of that. They would just rather everyone else stayed quiet and got on with life.
If you've been chased, bitten, obstructed by a dog it's unpleasant, even life-changing in severe cases. Coming on here to vent, and perhaps raise awareness, is fair enough in my book.
Coming on here to vent, and perhaps raise awareness, is fair enough in my book.
Dog owners do just the same about cyclist so Yeh, I guess that’s fair. Albeit in their own little worlds and less so here for obvious reasons.
If anything, I’m not sure there’s a group I see vilified more than cyclists in that wondrous world of digital media, so take every opportunity you can to get one back.
Dogs and their owners are like drivers - they're all "above average".
I think the major issue is dog owners by and large seem incapable of understanding those of us that do not want their dog bothering us
a classic example. Sitting down in a popular park having a picnic. dog not on a lead with owner nearby comes up to us. I ask the dog owner to call the dog away politely. She does not. the dog is trying to get its nose into the picnic. I shout at her to get her dog under control She huffs and puffs over to us, puts the dog on the lead and complains that we needed to chill out about it.
I have seen this many times. I do not want your dog coming up to me at all.
Kayak – why should I have to alter my behaviors to my detriment to allow for the fact people do not control their dogs?
Victim blaming
You shouldn't HAVE to of course but quite often, having a little more tolerance and understanding of others and their particular lifestyle kind of helps grease the wheels a little.
It's not victim blaming at all. If a dog is aggressive and attacks then it's the owners fault of course however, we can all be a little more tolerant and small changes in our approach to things can sometimes change what might be an unpleasant interaction into a pleasant one.
Just a shame that the world is increasingly zero tolerance. Well, it is through a keyboard anyway.
There's stuff every single day I see that winds me up that humans do, but I just don't really benefit by getting so angry about it, as completely and totally hard as that is to do.
The same argument could be applied to any crime against the person. Rape, murder etc. Just adapt your behaviour so it’s less likely to happen. Don’t go out on your own at night, don’t challenge a violent partner…
Absolutely it's wrong that we have to alter our behaviour to hope to avoid these things. Altering your behaviour or approach isn't sanctioning these things in any way though.
Kayak - so in my example above what should I have done?
You shouldn’t HAVE to of course but quite often, having a little more tolerance and understanding of others and their particular lifestyle kind of helps grease the wheels a little.
That's all very true, but how on earth does it apply to people who own badly-trained or inappropriate dogs? On what planet is it my responsibility to "understand" a dog that is charging at me while I'm trying to keep my little boy safe? Sorry bud, you're out on a limb here, and the more I hear about dog owners' attitudes, the less tolerant I am becoming, and the more I feel that a swift hard kick will do the trick. Dogs are powerful animals - we don't live in the dark ages any more and don't need them for personal protection, and as an owner you'd better be damn sure your dog is appropriately trained for where you take it. It genuinely boggles my mind that the Fluffy's rights to cavort off leash completely over-rides my rights to a safe cycle to nursery. And no, I don't blast along at high speeds. I'm talking about not having dogs jumping up at me, or into my wheels, while carrying toddlers on my bike.
Kayak – so in my example above what should I have done?
You should have just rolled your eyes and said "Oh silly Fluffy", and hoped the dog didn't bite your hand off as you went for an affectionate head pat. It'll be how I teach my daughter to deal with unwanted attention too....(I kid, obviously).
why should I have to alter my behaviors to my detriment to allow for the fact people do not control their dogs?
I don't mind making allowances for dogs, I mind that no matter what I do, it's still somehow my fault that they can't control their dog.
I feel the same way about horse riders.
Kayak – so in my example above what should I have done?
Sounds like you did all you could. Some people just don't give a shit. Some of those people own dogs I guess.
I feel the same way about horse riders.
Ah now that's a tricky one. At least where I live, the woods that I share as an MTB'er are also completely appropriate places for horses. At least, the local farms have kept horses there for a lot longer than bikers have been around. I've never had any issues with horses, am careful to be polite, and have never (for example) had a horse chase after me or my family with the owner yelling at me that I'm doing it wrong, or encountered a horse owner trying to break in a new horse on the grass next to an urban bike path, or had to navigate my way through hoardes of horseriders all trying to use the same piece of family-friendly path right next to the car park.
Saying that, I don't like horses. I have no idea what they will do next.
I shout at her to get her dog under control
Given your heated critique of the de-escalating technique during the confrontation between cyclists and drivers in a recent thread, d'you think this was the right thing to do?
I routinely ride along the TPT section between Manchester and the Coast at Liverpool, and of the vast vast numbers of dogs and their owners I meet; the overwhelming majority of them are perfectly normal encounters. But it's a rare day indeed that I'm not swerving to avoid some untrained dog wandering all over the place, off the lead, or a dog takes offense about something and barks at me, or I'm avoiding dog mess, and yet somehow I'm always left with the notion that the owner somehow thinks I'm responsible for it.
It's rare that it's ever anything more than that, but equally notable if none of that happens.
kayak - the problem is this is common sort of incident. On the shared use path with hundreds of bikes an hour you will get one or two of these type of incidents every mile - and I use a bell from 50m away.
Its the simple fact that many owners think we all love their dogs as much as we do
the number of times I have asked dog owners to control their dog and they ask why - he is just being playful / curious , the dog has rights etc
Given your heated critique of the de-escalating technique during the confrontation between cyclists and drivers in a recent thread, d’you think this was the right thing to do?
🙂
I do not know what else to do. I politely asked her to call the dog and she did not. The dog was getting into my picnic.
What else to I do when being ignored but to raise my voice to get the woman to control her dog? she actually sid those infamous words - he is just being friendly!
Let the dog eat my lunch?
Edit - it was not an angry confrontational shout more a raised voice " Please ( and i did say please) call your dog away from me"
confrontational would have been getting up and getting in her face invading her personal space and using my height to intimidate
Its the simple fact that many owners think we all love their dogs as much as we do
Same goes for children I find 😂
Yup - I don't have one of them either 🙂
People have a blind spot about their dogs, they love them and think they are the bestest, cutest nicest doggie woggies in the world. Otherwise considerate people just don't realise other people don't share their appreciation for their dog. I actually had this discussion with the wife yesterday.
We were out for a family stroll in the woods with our Cocker. She is a lovely friendly dog who absolutely loves going for a rummage in the woods.
My view was that the dog should be on the lead when were were on the main paths. Her view was that she likes to run around and wouldn't bother anyone. I pointed out that although we know our dog is friendly a stranger who doesn't like dogs has no idea and they should be able to walk in the woods without be bothered by someone's dog. "How do you know the next person coming along the path isn't scared of dogs?"
The dog stayed on the lead. I personally think that other people having to adjust their behaviour to accommodate my pet is bullshit.
Oh god, and there it is.
The person who now uses toddlers/children behaviour/actions as a comparison with badly behaved and dangerous dogs.
How many stories do you read about off-the-lead children maiming or killing someone.
Prattish response at best.
Same goes for children I find 😂
Yep, I'm one of those parents who smiles affectionately when my little brat bites someone and runs off with their handbag....
it's that above/below average thing again, half of dog owners fail at rule #1 more than the other half
what else can go right or wrong
training them
exercising them
socialising them
picking an appropriate dog breed based on their function in life (no, you do not need a sodding husky etc etc)
combine all that lot and it's a depressingly small amount that actually get it all right
the fins du cloche at the end of the bell curve are clearly not going to be any use ever with a dog, which will then be a massive pain to all around
I was knocked off my bike by an errant child !! I was riding down a cycle path and the child not being on a leash was running about wild playing. I had to swerve to avoid crashing into him resulting in my going otb into the bushes 🙁
Parents exclaimed it’s ok he loves bikes !!
I'm genuinely a dog person, I don't mind other folks dogs, I'm OK with most scenarios even when dogs are being aggressive. But also I don't want to have to interact with other people's dogs. Typical example: Yesterday on the TPT, I'm heading towards a couple (older guy and his daughter, or much younger wife) with 4 black labs, all off the lead, all going all over the place. If I dodged one, another was going under my wheel. I had to stop. Now in the grand scheme of things, Who cares? but rather than put his dogs on a lead or call them to heal, all this bloke did was give me a withering look, and walk on by, as if it was my fault that his dogs were clearly not under control, as it they had more right to be there than I did. There's nothing to do but shrug and ride on, but that (or something similar) always happens, and it does get wearisome
How many stories do you read about off-the-lead children maiming or killing someone.
I've definitely had small children run out in front of me. Probably more unpredictably so than dogs. Small children seem to look in one direction and run in another direction, going from stationary to running in an eyeblink. Dogs at least generally give you a hint as to which way they're going to head.