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I think they were explorers as, it was at great risk, not many people have been there, and the craft they were in was classed as experimental rather than being a certified commercial vehicle. Certainly 2 of the people on board would say they were explorers
It doesnt sound like they made it all the way down before it imploded, but I assume far enough down as for the pressure to be enough to zap them instantly rather than giving them time to hammer frozen sausages in to the water leaks?
I think they were explorers as, it was at great risk, not many people have been there
The wreck of the Titanic was discovered nearly 40 years. I would describe them as sightseers. I'm not sure the fact the vessel they were in was unsafe makes much difference.
I think, given the teeny numbers of folks who've been to those sorts of depths, explorers is a fitting title. You wouldn't call the astronauts of moon -missions post Apollo11 "sightseers" despite [in effect] doing pretty much the same thing as these folks were.
I don't think 'explorers' is the right term, but it's fine if visitors to the wreck want to self-identify this way. Google tells me the number of people who have gone there is numbered in the hundreds, so it has more in common with people going to the ISS than Apollo astronauts. Obviously every dive is still quite the adventure for those doing it.
The craft was classed as 'experimental' for legal and regulatory reasons, I suspect, and I'm not sure whether the passengers actually were fully informed about what that meant when they signed up.
Perhaps they were though, given how open the CEO was about his attitude to regulation.
From CNN, a few years back:
“There hasn’t been an injury in the commercial sub industry in over 35 years. It’s obscenely safe, because they have all these regulations. But it also hasn’t innovated or grown—because they have all these regulations,” Rush said in an interview that appeared in a June 2019 issue of Smithsonian Magazine.
And on a November 2022 “Unsung Science” podcast hosted by CBS correspondent David Pogue, Rush said exploration comes with innate risk.
“At some point, safety just is pure waste. I mean, if you just want to be safe, don’t get out of bed,” he said. “Don’t get in your car. Don’t do anything. At some point, you’re going to take some risk, and it really is a risk/reward question. I think I can do this just as safely by breaking the rules.”
I do wonder if they had announced on sunday that a implosion was detected shortly after losing comms, whether the same amount of resources would have been mobilised and the same media interest would have been generated.
your misreading what was announced - Who can listen to a sound and say ‘that’s definitely what an unconventionally constructed one of a kind sub sounds like when it implodes- in particular it’s definitely the implosion of the object we’re looking for right now and couldn’t be anything else.’
what was said was a sound was detected - that sound could be positioned - debris was found and the nature debris and its location was consistent with what was heard. Working backwards they can say what they heard was the implosion. They couldn’t have concluded and announced that when they first detected the noise.
Imagine if they'd have called off the search on hearing reports of this sound, and then subsequent visitors to the Titanic found the capsule intact, or worse still, it was finally spotted bobbing on the surface. Obviously they strongly suspected the worst, but you need to confirm it, both for the families involved, and to aid any investigation.
It would have lessened the 'boy down a well' press scrum though.
flip that on its head.
the navy say - we heard a noise - its imploded.
Attempts to find it are scaled back
1 week later an ROV finds the intact sub with composting bodies on.
navy looks pretty stupid and fairly liable for the result.
“At some point, safety just is pure waste. I mean, if you just want to be safe, don’t get out of bed,” he said. “Don’t get in your car. Don’t do anything. At some point, you’re going to take some risk, and it really is a risk/reward question. I think I can do this just as safely by breaking the rules.”
that's fine if that's what you want to do knock yer self out, charging people for the privilege is something else.
Why is James Cameron wearing an MX jersey in that interview?
It sounds a bit like they were essentially stress testing their submarine design - live, with people in it.
Would you get on a plane that somebody had knocked up in their shed?
Yes because it's not going to get off the ground without an inspection and airworthiness certificate.
You used to be able to .. and I have before it was over regulated.
They still are, my mates making one. HTH
Thank goodness… all the HSSE fairies rubbing their hands together for the opportunity to regulate yet something else.
For someone who gets so wound up about "dishonest" teachers you do lap up some shite. God forbid we don't let people die in stupid and preventable ways.
Why is James Cameron wearing an MX jersey in that interview?
Exactly..what a hypocrite
Afterall, According to some folks mx is as dangerous as going to visit the titanic in an experimental carbon tube..
told him he wanted his clothes, his boots and his motorcycle.
Chapeau 👌
Afterall, According to some folks mx is as dangerous as going to visit the titanic in an experimental carbon tube..
Statistics on Dirt Bike (Off Road) Accidents 2019
In 2019 4733 motorcycles drivers was killed. Out of them 61 was Off Road riders (1.28 %).
I am not sure how you would statistically quantify it, but clearly people do die in MX, you could argue for 2 years Titan had a 100% safety record
I don’t think you can regulate against stupidity - if you want to build a plastic tube and go to the bottom of the ocean on it, knock yourself out - but you should probably legislate against people commercialising it
How many 'missions' had the Titan completed?
As for the passengers I'm sure I read that the French guy had been down with them once before?
On the other hand there are similarities with people paying guides and sherpas to get them to the top of Everest. And a roughly similar fatality rate.
There's some irony to this:
Mr Rush was married to Wendy Rush, who is the great-great-granddaughter of Isidor and Ida Straus, who died in the Titanic wreck after letting women and children escape before them.
On the other hand there are similarities with people paying guides and sherpas to get them to the top of Everest. And a roughly similar fatality rate.
its beyond me why anyone would want to go up Everest these days.
Its literally a queue from top to bottom, literally shit every where, rubbish and a good few dead bodies to remind you that you are in a seriously screwed up place.
In theory Everest is regulated, yet they are letting dangerous numbers of people up the mountain to the point it has almost become impossible to get down without running out of oxygen
That really is tragic. I doubt anything that stupid would have been anywhere near the top of my to do list when I was 19. Yeah, that sounds great dad, but can we not just go to a gig or something instead?
I would have wanted to go at 19. Almost certainly would have chickened out/immediately refused due to general fear.
I still want to go now (but in the nice titanium one, not the shitty carbon one) but would 100% refuse due to general fear. I don't even like swimming off a boat when you don't know where the bottom is or whats beneath you. The deep blue sea is not for me.
Why is James Cameron wearing an MX jersey in that interview?
Because he can! He's James Cameron!
To be fair he's spent more money on other things "because he can' than just about anyone else on the planet. He checks out the material science too. That MX jersey could probably stop a sniper bullet or withstand reentry into the earth's atmosphere.
How many ‘missions’ had the Titan completed?
As for the passengers I’m sure I read that the French guy had been down with them once before?
25 (iirc) and yes. Which is why there’s a good chance it just reached the end of what it could handle and a went *pop*
For a 19 year old, its a properly shit way to die.
You're meant to die of your own stupidity at that age. Drugs overdoses, car crashes, shagging yourself to death, not getting killed by your dad because he wanted to look at a rusty old boat
Interestingly someone on Mastodon was pointing out that Carbon Fibre has galvanic corrosion problems when in contact with metals and loses tensile strength when in contact with salt water.
As we have specialists in just about everything here, any materials bods able to confirm or deny this?
If true the vessel had a limited lifespan and would be an expensive and environmentally unfriendly way to explore at depth.
Carbon Fibre has galvanic corrosion problems when in contact with metals
Ti and Carbon are (relatively) next to each other in the galvanic series so id imagine the lack of galvanic corrosion was why they were paired.
Some lessons possibly will have been learnt from this
Like don't buy snake oil.
On the other hand there are similarities with people paying guides and sherpas to get them to the top of Everest. And a roughly similar fatality rate.
I do know how many ascents of Everest have been made and how many fatalities. I know how many fatalities there have been in Titan but not how many successful trips there have been down to the Titanic.
I do know how many ascents of Everest have been made and how many fatalities.
There's a roughly 1:20 death rate for people who actually try (or succeed) to reach the summit.
I know how many fatalities there have been in Titan but not how many successful trips there have been down to the Titanic.
This was its fourth trip to the titanic, although reportedly it had done 50 trips in total including others to similar depths. So your fatality rate is 1:50-1:4 depending on how you want to measure it.
Carbon Fibre has galvanic corrosion problems when in contact with metals and loses tensile strength when in contact with salt water.
50 trips at maximum of 8hrs/trip is less than 17 days immersed in water.
Given that a large number of racing yacht hulls are made of CF (and vastly more rigs) I'm finding that one a little hard to believe.
its beyond me why anyone would want to go up Everest these days.
For the Instagram/social media likes
I’m definitely of the view they were tourists interested in the bragging rights rather than explorers
It's just a depressing story from start to finish, poor engineering design, poor in-service management, lack of a regulator, lack of oversight, it's beyond a cowboy operation, and it's even more depressing that all we're getting just now is lots of people saying 'i told you so', in my business the safety culture is a key part of everything, and this whole scenario sounds like they have none at all at any level.
50 trips at maximum of 8hrs/trip is less than 17 days immersed in water.
Given that a large number of racing yacht hulls are made of CF (and vastly more rigs) I’m finding that one a little hard to believe.
Is it that the CF doesn't actually come in contact with the salt water? It's the gelcoat, or what ever the high tech equivalent is, that seals the CF. Maybe this isn't possible at these extreme pressures?
No real clue, just a possibility.
re: the MX jersey, he has for years.
Why does James Cameron wear a motocross jersey literally everywhere?
I hate the sea and everything in it
What, even dolphins? No-one can hate dolphins.
This was its fourth trip to the titanic, although reportedly it had done 50 trips in total including others to similar depths. So your fatality rate is 1:50-1:4 depending on how you want to measure it.
Actually I just read through the Oceangate Wiki which makes interesting reading regarding the design and construction. It all says "28 persons visited the Titanic on the Titan in 2022, 21 of whom were "mission specialists", i.e., non-staff passengers. In total, OceanGate undertook six dives to Titanic in 2021 and seven in 2022".
That's a lot more than I thought and suggests about 50 or so individual trips suggesting a fatality rate of 10%.
Now back in the days of big "professional" Everest trips (or indeed 8000m peak trips) 10% was reckoned to be the ratio of fatalities to attempts, so roughly the same. Now in these days of commercial expeditions although we see headline news of huge loss of life the total number of fatalities (including those earlier expeditions) is about 310 out of a total number of ascents of over 11300. That's roughly 3% and research by University of Washington and University of California suggests a death rate since 1990 of about 1%.
I think some of the Everest stats counted fatalities against successful summits rather than attempts, which again made it look a lot worse than it was.
If you look at fatalities vs climbers above base camp, things looked a little different even in the 70s and 80s.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-47418215
I’m finding that one a little hard to believe.
Problem with that comparison is the 350 to 400 bar of pressure the material is under when used sub-surface at 4km depth, so while useful in forming a view it's not the whole story.
@trail_rat Thanks for that.
I suspect that there's some research money about to be spent on finding out about the effects of extreme pressure on CF and titanium bonded structures.
I suspect that there’s some research money about to be spent on finding out about the effects of extreme pressure on CF and titanium bonded structures.
OTOH there's plenty of experience with steel and Ti and when weight isn't necessarily an issue...
What, even dolphins? No-one can hate dolphins.
https://deepseanews.com/2013/02/10-reasons-why-dolphins-are-aholes/
CF and titanium bonded structures.
My money is on the bond between these two materials.
My money is on the bond between these two materials.
My money is on someone building a replica and testing it to destruction to find out what happened.
Even that may not explain this particular failure - wouldn't be surprised if there were multiple potential failure points.
if they found the two end caps - far apart as reported
doesnt that suggest the carbon crushed and expelled the end caps during the inrush ?
if they found the two end caps – far apart as reported
doesnt that suggest the carbon crushed and expelled the end caps during the inrush ?
Wouldn't that happen regardless of where the failure was? Either in the main CF section or at the bond?
It’s the gelcoat, or what ever the high tech equivalent is, that seals the CF.
Gelcoat is simply a coloured external finish to GRP and CF products.
It can be porous after a length of time leading to osmosis in boats but I read that they covered the CF with a ceramic coating of some sort..
its beyond me why anyone would want to go up Everest these days.
"Because it's there"
Beyond me how people can listen to Adele but hey, we're all different and that's good.
The porthole was an area of concern...
He said the window gets ‘squeezed’ as the craft gets down to 12,500 feet below the surface. If it is going to fail, the structure gives a ‘warning,’ he says in the video.
But Rush admits in the clip he had “broken some rules to make this.”
Asked what the window is made from, he says: “It’s acrylic - plexiglass.
“It is seven inches thick and weighs about 80lbs. When we go to the titanic it will squeeze in about three-quarters of an inch and just deforms.
“Acrylic is great because before it cracks or fails it starts to crackle so you get a huge warning if it’s about to fail.”
Some experts believe the craft may have suffered a catastrophic failure due to the pressure underwater - with the window being a possible area of concern.
What's the point of a warning at that depth? Oh its crackling followed by Instant death.
Iread this a couple of days ago...
The acrylic window and the rigidity sensors, what did he seriously think he could do between the warning signs and getting back to the surface four miles above him...
All his warning systems could do was tell him he was about to die.. Guy was seriously deluded...
it'd be a bit like rice crispies I guess... snap, crackle & pop. You'd probably have about half a second to think oh shit.
Asked what the window is made from, he says: “It’s acrylic – plexiglass.
“It is seven inches thick and weighs about 80lbs. When we go to the titanic it will squeeze in about three-quarters of an inch and just deforms.
So does this mean that even when you spend £250k to go to the bottom of the sea in this death trap the view will be shit because the tiny porthole is deformed and distorts the view?
Lots of know alls on this thread
FTFY 🤔
So does this mean that even when you spend £250k to go to the bottom of the sea in this death trap the view will be shit because the tiny porthole is deformed and distorts the view?
A colleague from work said today that the viewing is done from screens on the inside which are connected to remote cameras on the outside of the sub. So basically if that's true you may as well just sit on the transport ship above and send down an ROV with cameras!
So basically if that’s true you may as well just sit on the transport ship above and send down an ROV with cameras!
And that would of cost a lot more money and using that sub.
I did think wouldn't it be a lot less dangerous and also cheaper to create a sub which you don't actually send down to the bottom at all. Really it's just a glorified simulator but you don't tell the punters that
Put people in it, send it down 2m then on the screens and also through the porthole you just play vids of a previous mission.
Jolt the sub about a bit to simulate movent.
They did it on a much grander scale for the moon landings 😜 so can't be too hard at this small scale.
Wasn’t there a TV show where they convinced contestants that they were going into space by doing pretty much that?
Edit, yep:
Yeah, Space Cadets on C4? Watched a bit of it yesterday on Youtube, were people more gullible in those days?
There certainly was - Space Cadets
Aaand we're full circle, thanks for playing...
Haha hadn't read the whole thread. Can see the sim thing already done ages ago on P2 🤣
Has anyone checked on Joe Cocker lately??
Has anyone checked on Joe Cocker lately??
Heard he's playing Glastonbury later
OTOH there’s plenty of experience with steel and Ti and when weight isn’t necessarily an issue…
That DSV ‘Limiting Factor’a bit of a thing -
The defining feature of the Limiting Factor is the 90mm thick pressure hull. Having been machined to within 99.933% of true spherical form, it is testament to the precision engineering required to develop a certified, reusable, full ocean depth submersible.
It also rocks seats.
Has anyone checked on Joe Cocker lately??
Heard he’s playing Glastonbury later
You utter Know it all.
the fly tipped sofa has weighed in in the fail! dear god
Lefties sneer. But those brave souls on the submarine died in a cause - pushing out the frontiers of human knowledge - that's typically British and that fills me with pride
most of the sneering seems to be coming from your readership mate going by the comments!
pushing out the frontiers of human knowledge – that’s typically British and that fills me with pride
It might well be typically British but the submersible’s owner and pilot was American, and the expert on the Titanic, and who had done several previous dives to it, was French.
British involvement appears to have been restricted to handing over rather large amounts of money.
British involvement appears to have been restricted to handing over rather large amounts of money.
Familiar, that.
OTOH there’s plenty of experience with steel and Ti and when weight isn’t necessarily an issue…
Somewhat surprisingly weight is a massive issue on submarines.
Because it's fairly obviously got to float. But you've got to ballance that against making it as small as possible because force = pressure x area so the bigger it is the shallower it has to stay (or you need even more material). That's why they're all so crammed in. Space needs to be as efficient as possible. And by cramming everything in, you end up with something overall far more dense than a surface vessel, so everything needs to be lighter again.
It might well be typically British but the submersible’s owner and pilot was American, and the expert on the Titanic, and who had done several previous dives to it, was French.
I am frankly gobsmacked that with their previous experience Hamish Harding and Paul-Henry Nargeoulet would choose to go on this trip.
Lots of know-all’s on this thread
There’s lots of detailed information about the subject out there, from people who build these sort of structures; it’s really not difficult to find if you care to actually look.
Lots of know all’s on this thread
Some of us design equipment for submarines and subsea unmanned systems so yeah, there are some who know a bit on the subject.
Weight is less of an issue than you’d imagine for most large submarines. Indeed it has far more effect on inertia and control than it does on buoyancy. Most subs have substantial reserve buoyancy and ballast tanks and ballast weights are customised for each project, even when part of a production line.
Several projects I’ve worked on were substantially over predicted weight but functioned fine in all but the most extreme circumstances.
Also, substantial amounts of equipment are stored outside the pressure hull, so while they affect size and weight, they don’t alter the pressure hull sizing. Thrusters, sensors, o2 tanks, ballast tanks, storage, etc are all in free flood areas.
The conspiracy theories have started.
https://stewpeters.com/video/2023/06/titanic-cover-up-rothschild-funded-ocean-gate-sinks-sub-to-hide-truth-about-the-titanic/
(No, I haven't watched the video. Reading the introduction was enough)
"Did an iceberg really sink the Titanic?
Google Whistleblower Zach Vorhies is here to talk about the missing submarine and his alternative theory about what’s really going on.
When the media believes something is important and all have the exact same narrative that is a red flag the truth is being concealed.
The lost submarine operation was initially funded by the Rothschild dynasty.
Due to a new treaty citizens of the West will no longer be able to visit the Titanic wreckage site without a permit.
This submarine operation was able to obtain a permit with an experimental sub design while using a wireless video game controller.
Zach believes this tragedy will be used as justification to prevent anyone from visiting the Titanic wreckage.
Zach also believes the Titanic was not sunk by an iceberg but rather an explosion.
We know jet fuel doesn't melt steel beams.
Likewise, an iceberg cannot cut through a hardened steel hull."