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I haven’t seen any winching system on the vessels that can recover it.
the have the FADOSS in the st john good for 6000m and lifting 27t It waiting on somewhere to go and an ROV
If you can’t wait for that…they already have another ‘amateur submarining goes wrong’ doco.
Or watch Channels 5 "Titanic Sub: Lost at Sea." which is getting broadcast tonight!
most rich people are rich because a parent was rich.
I.e. they are lucky
(And most on this forum are just slightly less lucky/privileged, relatively speaking of the global population)
I know it has been done but I still don't understand the motivation to buy a $250k ticket to go on this thing. There is already great footage available of the Titantic. They are not going to see much from the sub with just one small window, they were certainly not going to do any genuine exploring or discovery, the risk is high and apparent reward is low. What am I missing? Is it just willy waving?
Or watch Channels 5 “Titanic Sub: Lost at Sea.” which is getting broadcast tonight!
Hope they're not shelving 'Bargain Hunting Brits in the Sun' or 'Motorhoming with Merton and Webster' to make room for it.
Watching the amount of effort going into the search and rescue operation with amazement. Being a billionaire really can mobilise militaries can’t it. Wonder what the rewards being offered are?
Float off the beach on a £29.99 dinghy for a few hours and you'll get a few RNLI boats and a helicopter if they can't spot you immediately.
It's not like DEC are putting out TV adds like they did after the earthquake in Syria to fund the rescue effort.
The most likely thing capable would be an oil and gas vessel used for subsea infrastructure installation.
&
From what I understand there is a pipelayer on site, which will have some deepwater capable winches and ROV’s. Not sure if it can deal with 4000m mind.
I was with a good friend of mine yesterday - he is the crane operator on a subsea construction vessel. He says there's very little chance they have the ability to pull something up from that depth.
I was going to say that my speculation is that they got snagged on something that's stopped them surfacing (seeing as it seems they have a number of redundant systems to get them to the surface)...... but they lost contact 15 minutes before the sub should have even got to the wreck.
Is it just willy waving?
I guess, but how many people alive today can say they have seen the Titanic, with their own eyes?
agreed unlikely that a pipelayer will have kit to lift from that depth but their ROVs should be good for Search at that depth and limited intervention/assistance - such as attaching a cable or removing debris ...
the fadoss is US mil equipment for removing sensitive Wrecks from the sea bed. - its capacity exceed the requirements to get this off the bottom - they just need to know where to put it - and have a ship capibile of the lift - which a pipelay vessel likely would be .
Now that's there - If they find it they will get it - its a significant movement from yesterday where if they found it and it was at 4000m there was little they could do to get it .
I was with a good friend of mine yesterday – he is the crane operator on a subsea construction vessel. He says there’s very little chance they have the ability to pull something up from that depth.
It wouldn't be a crane, it would be a deep sea winch. Something like this https://www.dromecwinches.com/project/deme-deep-sea-mining-winch/
Sorry, not read the thread guys.
I can't get the father and son out of my head. If they are still alive that guy must be going through utter hell knowing that he has unintentionally led his son to his death too.
I'm not into the monetary morality of it all (though I'm sure some of you have raised valid points) I'm just really hoping that there is some good news today.
It wouldn’t be a crane, it would be a deep sea winch.
I was merely pointing out that a subsea construction vessel probably wouldn't be able to do it. It's not the actual crane capacity (his lifts loads in excess of 160 tons) but the cable capacity.
The longer the cable the thinner I guess it has to be leading to less lifting capacity - note that that winch can 'only' lift 25 tons.
but how many people alive today can say they have seen the Titanic, with their own eyes?
But why is that even a thing? The sinking of the Titanic was a tragic event which resulted in a catastrophic loss of life, which is why of course that it is so famous. So why would someone feel the need to see it with their own eyes?
So why would someone feel the need to see it with their own eyes?
Precisely this.
This 'trip' should never have actually ever been a thing in the first place and is exactly why there are things like ROVs and cameras.
Theres loads of things I'm aware exist without ever feeling the need to see them with my own eyes.
One thing that tends to swing it for me, whether I want to or not, is the question 'will it involve a pretty good chance of me meeting an absolutely horrible death?'
Did you see the footage last night, on channel 4 news, of the company 'headquarters' of the shonky submarine company? It looked like a scaffolders yard. In fact, thats probably unfair to scaffolders.
If I'd have rocked up there, I'd firstly assume that I'd come to the wrong place, then when they told me that it was indeed the right place, I'd be making my excuses pretty sharpish!
"Yeah...erm.... d'ya know what lads? I think I'm going to leave it for today. I had a dodgy curry last night and a trip to the bottom of the ocean's probably not the best idea.... Best of luck though...."
But why is that even a thing? The sinking of the Titanic was a tragic event which resulted in a catastrophic loss of life, which is why of course that it is so famous. So why would someone feel the need to see it with their own eyes?
I agree. All a bit odd.
Do people go to Pompeii because it is a preserved Roman city or because it has tragic history? I have to say that I went there for probably for both reasons. Herculaneum is better preserved, but less well know for tragedy.
Not many people have seen the inside of my kitchen bin - it hasn't even been extensively explored and photographed by remote vehicles - yet!
Maybe I should let billionaires stick their heads in it for 250k a pop.
that's it, plenty of other wrecks in the world, id rather go scuba diving to see something ancient in a nice shallow sea somewhere
The longer the cable the thinner I guess it has to be leading to less lifting capacity – note that that winch can ‘only’ lift 25 tons.
The sub weighs 10 tonne in air.
The longer the cable, the less capacity, as it has support it's weight as well as the load.
Not many people have seen the inside of my kitchen bin
If it's anything like my bin, there are probably lifeforms previously undocumented by science living at the bottom, and probably not friendly ones. Make sure your waiver is watertight, as it were.
Once they've found it and lowered it down - how are they going to connect it?
It'll be swaying around like mad at those depths will all the currents affecting the length of the cable.
Presume you guys have never been on holiday anywhere you could have just looked at on TV?
Seeing something with your own eyes is very different to seeing a picture
The first time i saw Saturn's rings via my little telescope was genuinely exciting even tho i have seen lots of pictures showing much more detail
Once they’ve found it and lowered it down – how are they going to connect it?
It’ll be swaying around like mad at those depths will all the currents affecting the length of the cable.
they are not magnet fishing . itll be sent down on a ROV.
dunno about other winches but the one i linked above has active heave compensation to account for the up and down motion - active heave is a very impressive system to see in motion - really ****s with your mind especially if you see it going from off to on and the pipe starts moving fairly quickly - double the wave length of the swell usually relative to your location on the rig.
Not many people have seen the inside of my kitchen bin
Is it a historically significant bin? Has it been romanticised in films? Is it really difficult to get to?
The first time i saw Saturn’s rings via my little telescope was genuinely exciting even tho i have seen lots of pictures showing much more detail
Yeah, but if I'd have informed you as you entered the room with the telescope that I was going to seal the room you were in, bolt all the doors from the outside then fill the room full of water and maybe some sharks, would you have been so keen then?
If there's five people in there with enough oxygen for 96 hours, presumably you could finish off the other four, and then you'd have enough oxygen for 480 hours, which is about 20 days. Obviously you'd get quite hungry, but you'd have something to eat as well.
But why is that even a thing?
Whilst it holds no interest for me, I can sort of understand why it might for others. Certain historic 'tragedies', accidents, crimes etc. do seem to elicit a fascination for some people. The sinking of the Titanic is definitely one, see also the Whitechapel murders. A bit morbid perhaps, but it does seem that some people's brains are wired to enjoy that - probably the same group who enjoy the 'true crime' genre.
We are all different I suppose, I do smirk quite often when people here (and not just here) seem constantly surprised that others don't always share their world view. That they have the temerity to have different interests, motivations, thoughts! The world must be a very confusing place for them!
Very rich people don't think like most of us. They get bored seeing the same things the Hoi polloi can also experience. Whether it's exploring the dark continent in the 1800's or using Musk's taxi into space.
We are all different I suppose, I do smirk quite often when people here (and not just here) seem constantly surprised that others don’t always share their world view.
Its not a case of sharing my worldview - people can do what the hell they like - what baffles me in cases like this is that people don't share my instinct for self-preservation
Presume you guys have never been on holiday anywhere you could have just looked at on TV?
Not really comparable - it's not like they can get out and swim around the state room, walk on the deck or touch the pulpit. All they can do is look at it through the screen..... sorry..... pothole.
Isn't 'seeing things with your own eyes' almost the entire Tourist Industry in one? If experiencing stuff directly is so trivial, we should all be going on holiday by looking at pictures. Might help the planet out a bit by removing all that unnecessary travel...
what baffles me in cases like this is that people don’t share my instinct for self-preservation
This Hamish chap is clearly one of life's adventurers. I suspect that he weighed up the risks against the experience and decided it was worth it.
If there’s five people in there with enough oxygen for 96 hours, presumably you could finish off the other four, and then you’d have enough oxygen for 480 hours, which is about 20 days. Obviously you’d get quite hungry, but you’d have something to eat as well.
but how much extra oxygen would you consume during the bludgeoning frenzy to 'finish off' 4 other people with an Xbox controller?
This Hamish chap is clearly one of life’s adventurers. I suspect that he weighed up the risks against the experience and decided it was worth it.
Well, given mine and Hamish's somewhat opposing views on risk assessment, I reckon mines betterer 😉
Why see anything? People go see similar things all the time, there’s a human interest story behind each. I think by visiting you feel a connection to the events and history. It’s a human thing. A few other similar that come to mind;
Pompeii as mentioned above
Auschwitz
HMS Arizona
Dunlop Memorial Gardens
Commonwealth War Memorials
The Belfast Titanic museum trades on the Titanic’s reputation too.
They all take some wealth to see, diving to the Titanic just takes more. People can spend their money on what they want. There’s zero chance I’d get on an experimental sub myself though!
I do smirk quite often when people here seem surprised others don’t share their world view.
I'm trying to cut down. Smirking's not good for you.
There are all manner of tourist attractions that you can go and see
Fancy going to see the Dunlop Memorial Gardens?
Yeah.. that'd be great
Brill! I've actually developed an 'experimental' new method to get us there. It'll be fine, don't worry....
If it was easy and safe, everyone would do it. That’s part of the attraction.
See also, Everest attempts. Expensive, hard, not safe, many easier ways to get to 9000m.
How many other ways are there to get to the Titanic?
many easier ways to get to 9000m.
Like what?
Commercial airliner
See also, Everest attempts.
Even fully supported thats still requires personal effort and some skill so is a challenge.
vs sitting in, admittedly, uncomfortable box for 10 hours and hoping someone else hasnt screwed up.
I don't get the fascination with the Titanic, she wasn't even the first in her class (Olympic was and she was scrapped in 1937 without ceremony) If you want to see an old wreck you can dive on her "just as unfortunate" sister ship HMHS Britannic
Statistically nearly 50% of smokers die from smoke related disease. Doesn’t stop people from smoking.
Same applies to risky activities like base jumping, mountaineering, going into space and visiting the Titanic. Not a problem unless you are the wrong side of the stats.
I don’t get the fascination with the Titanic, she wasn’t even the first in her class
There is loads of things about the Titanic that explain the fascination.
Her loss led directly to the SOLAS regs.
She was called "unsinkable", not by the builders but by an engineering magazine.
Her design with the sub division did exactly what it was supposed to do, sink slowly and upright to allow he lifeboats to be launched. A principle still in passenger ship design today.
If they had enough lifeboats, everyone could of been saved, save a few who drowned from the initial flooding.
If the officers had understood how to use the state of the art lifeboat davits, a lot more would of been saved. The davits were the first to be designed to lower the boats fully loaded.
If the Californian had reacted, a lot more would of survived.
There were a lot of very wealthy onboard and a few died.
I could go on.
you could make a similar "what if" list for every ship wreck in history.
I think you need to reassess your risk assessments binners. I'm putting money on more people being killed from partaking of too much fine dining in Greggs than have been killed by buying a ticket on expedition certain death
you could make a similar “what if” list for every ship wreck in history.
You probably could, but there are masses of ships that are dived on regularly, and the ones that films and documentaries are made about? I've got books on my shelves about local wrecks. There's absolutely no difference between those and the Titanic, in terms of being morbid or ghoulish.
I reckon that if the Titanic was in 20m of water then it would be the busiest dive site in the world.
The folk on here saying " I don't know why folk would want to spend their own money to do visit titanic" - you will lose your mind when you hear what the majority of the UK population would think about cyclists spending around 1/4 of the average annual take home pay, per bike, to spend on a bicycle to then dress up in either lycra or pyjamas.
The folk on here saying ” I don’t know why folk would want to spend their own money to do visit titanic” – you will lose your mind when you hear what the majority of the UK population would think about cyclists spending around 1/4 of the average annual take home pay, per bike, to spend on a bicycle to then dress up in either lycra or pyjamas.
Don't believe ya, like most on here i've got an apollo from Halfords and wear jeans.
If there’s five people in there with enough oxygen for 96 hours, presumably you could finish off the other four, and then you’d have enough oxygen for 480 hours, which is about 20 days. Obviously you’d get quite hungry, but you’d have something to eat as well.
Bit awks when they open up the capsule though. It's not like you can use the 'Captain Oates' excuse - 'oh, he just said he was popping out for a while'.
Another issue with murderin' the other occupants is that decomposition products would render the atmosphere unbreathable fairly quickly too.
Another issue with murderin’ the other occupants is that decomposition products would render the atmosphere unbreathable fairly quickly too.
Would just have to eat them quickly then before they go off.
Another issue with murderin’ the other occupants is that decomposition products would render the atmosphere unbreathable fairly quickly too.
Will there be any heating in the submersible? Would it normally be needed? I don't know how cold the sea is at 4000m down, but based on how cold the sea was in Gower last week, I'm thinking that the sub will feel like a freezer at the moment and maybe help in preventing the above?
Are people saying that they dont understand paying money to visit a famous wreck?
Or are they questioning the desire to visit said wreck in an experimental / cobbled together submarine, that will cost £250,000 (or is it $?) and has a VERY remote chance of survival should something go wrong?
I can get wanting to see a famous wreck, esp as diver. As a passenger on a sub, not so much. As a passenger in a small sub with all the abovementioned issues around survivability? Er, nope.
I'm also, you will not be surprised to learn, not particulary interested in other activities that if they go wrong are pretty certain to lead to life changing injuries or death, such as wing suit flying. But at least a lot of those have payoffs I can understand - exhilaration, achievement, overcoming physical challenges etc. Sitting in a potential coffn whilst someone esle drives you to 4000m bsl to look out of a tiny porthole to see something that there are already high def images of - no I don't get why anyone would see that as a reasonable payoff for the risks.
I don't understand the comparisons made with Auschwitz or Pompeii on the previous page.
I have visited a Nazi concentration camp, I think it is important to understand history and the horrors committed by racism.
The significance of Pompeii, which I have also visited, isn't that a lot of people died there but that it is so well preserved and it tells us a great deal about life two thousand years ago.
War graves, which I have also visited, are a solemn lesson on the horrors of war and a way to honour those who have died at the prime of their lives.
I don't understand the attraction of undertaking a highly dangerous dive, at huge cost, to look at a sunk ocean liner, other than to say that you have seen it.
I don’t know how cold the sea is at 4000m down
I heard on the news that the water temp was close to freezing.
Also 5 guys spending 4 days in there is going to absolutely rank.
I read somewhere that the bravest guy on the Apollo Program was the one who opened the hatch when they had landed.
I have visited a Nazi concentration camp, I think it is important to understand history and the horrors committed by racism.
Why did you need to visit the site to understand that?
Are people saying that they dont understand paying money to visit a famous wreck?
Or are they questioning the desire to visit said wreck in an experimental / cobbled together submarine, that will cost £250,000 (or is it $?) and has a VERY remote chance of survival should something go wrong?
You couldn't pay me £250,000 to get in that shonky piece of duct-taped, X-box controlled drainage pipe, never mind expecting money going in the other direction, given that anything going wrong (as seems distinctly likely, looking at the thing) means pretty much certain death.
Just Darwinism innit? Bearing in mind the enormous booming klaxon that the crucial word 'experimental' sets off in reference to any vehicle you'd be expecting me to get into
I think you need to reassess your risk assessments binners. I’m putting money on more people being killed from partaking of too much fine dining in Greggs than have been killed by buying a ticket on expedition certain death
I'm not paying Greggs £250,000 even over MY lifetime, to kill me though, am I? And it'll take a lot longer than a few days. At least munching on a steak bake is a better way to go than weighing up whether you'll suffocate or freeze to death first in a pitch black plastic tube at the bottom of the ocean. Not even their vegan stuff is that bad!
Why did you need to visit the site to understand that?
You could say the same about war graves, but the rows and rows and rows of young men kinda of really drives it home. :/
Dazh, the amount of glee and happiness you've displayed, multiple times in this thread about the probable death of 5 folk is frankly disgusting and a great display of your actual character.
I have visited a Nazi concentration camp, I think it is important to understand history and the horrors committed by racism.
Why did you need to visit the site to understand that?
Because if you experience something the lesson tends to be more profound and it has a deeper meaning. Did you really have to ask the question?
What do you think can be gained by undertaking a highly dangerous dive, at great expense, even to wealthy people, to look at a broken wreck at huge depth?
Actually, forget the Tracy Brothers...
Kwazii and the Vegemals are who I'd trust in this situation.
Form my understanding they have now passed the time where they will have used up the oxygen they took with them. Grim way to go
Would catastrophic failure not have been the most likely?
Grimly, are we now just waiting for news that the half-hourly banging has ceased?
I’m not paying Greggs £250,000 even over MY lifetime, to kill me though, am I?
We'll need some more detail. How many steak bakes and doughnuts per day, over what period? We'll obviously also have to allow for inflation, particularly going forward. And if we could get some kind of actuarial data we could estimate your lifespan.
My guesstimate is somewhere well north of 50 grand. Probably could have bought yourself an executive survival experience with Ray Mears for that.
wheres John Terry?
multiple times in this thread about the probable death of 5 folk
Approximately 150k people die every day somewhere in the world, many in horrible and tragic circumstances. What makes these 5 people deserve my mourning more than the others?
You could say the same about war graves, but the rows and rows and rows of young men kinda of really drives it home. :/
Because if you experience something the lesson tends to be more profound and it has a deeper meaning. Did you really have to ask the question?
I've visited plenty, and yes, you are right, the rows of graves or names on the monument drives something home, but not the reason for the killing in the first place. You don't get any more understanding of a war by visiting the graves. I'd suggest that in visiting Auschwitz you get as much understanding of why the Nazis committed genocide as you get an understanding of why Stonehenge was built when you stand in the stones.
Edit : would you visit a mass grave in the Balkans to achieve the same result?
If you want to see an old wreck you can dive on her “just as unfortunate” sister ship HMHS Britannic
Errr... no. The Britannic sits at around 120m and so is way out of reach of most divers. It's also quite a logistical challenge to get there with permission to dive it.
Though you could get there in a much simpler submersible so if billionaires want to pay 250k a pop to look at it... (scans ebay for cheap subs)
My guess would be a catastrophic failure of the hull.
They had no way of testing the hull for voids after previous dives.
Everyone on here will have s tory of their or their mates carbon fibre failing at some point.
But why is that even a thing? The sinking of the Titanic was a tragic event which resulted in a catastrophic loss of life, which is why of course that it is so famous. So why would someone feel the need to see it with their own eyes?
Inevitably, for ‘the likes’ probably. Very few people can do it, even going up Everest these days looks like you’re stood in a queue all the way up in order to get your selfie at the top. People doing stuff to put on social media.
Approximately 150k people die every day somewhere in the world, many in horrible and tragic circumstances. What makes these 5 people deserve my mourning more than the others?
Because it's a tragic drama with people who are now known to us through the media. I don't know the other 150k.
My guess would be a catastrophic failure of the hull.
my guess would be something far less spectacular.
I don't suppose it matters much to the 5 dead people
What makes these 5 people deserve my mourning more than the others?
No has suggested that these 5 people deserve your mourning more than others, as far as I am aware.
There might have been the suggestion that circumstances surrounding their deaths was pretty horrific though. I certainly think so. Unless they died instantly.
My guess would be a catastrophic failure of the hull.
I am pretty sure the experts (not here) have said that no explosion/implosion/catastrophic noise had been heard hence that's why they were still looking.
My money is that one of the occupants shat themselves on the toilet when they realised how unsafe the coffin was. This caused the sub to nose dive to the bottom as the bog was situated upfront.
Inevitably, for ‘the likes’ probably. Very few people can do it, even going up Everest these days looks like you’re stood in a queue all the way up in order to get your selfie at the top. People doing stuff to put on social media.
Yeah that would be my guess too. I really can't think of another reason.