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Somehow I have accidentally subscribed to this topic and I am experiencing notificatageddon...
Have another
Jeepers guys. Can you not read? I said nothing about the rescuers being racist.
Its well known and documented that news stories of folk in peril or at risk get more news coverage in the UK if those in peril are white.
This isn't controversial in that its well known and documented
Culture Warrior is a description/insult usually used by Lefties aimed at the Right Wing but I see more evidence of it in the other direction by folk so determined to show just how "woke" they are that they need to bring it up at every opportunity.
Where is it documented? When it comes to the uk news, I suspect white people in peril is really ‘uk citizens’ in peril. However unfortunately I wouldn’t be surprised if I was proven wrong (obviously I don’t count the daily mail as a source of news)
just for clarity, I didn’t read you were calling the rescue team racist!
Sorry for the thread diversion. One post to defend myself. Plenty of other data on this.. these are about missing people but its been seen and documented in other sorts of cases
There was some discussion prior about the media coverage so made this comment to add to that discussion and got jumped on. Its an uncomfortable truth that many folk do not want to face. The whiter you are the more physically attractice and richer the more press coverage your peril gets
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22441124
@tj complete nonsense as far as I’m concerned- there’s nothing ‘race’ in this at all and no need to try and get it in there.
Some very interesting knowledge of the field though, as ever from here, which is great to read….
This is getting media coverage everywhere but especially here as it’s the Titanic and this is real Thunderbirds stuff.
Scotroutes absolutely 💯
Tj, why are you here? Have you got anything constructive to add to the discussion regarding the missing sub or are you just looking for opportunities to signal your righteousness? You’ve already made a right tit of yourself regarding the ****stanis on board…
Go and monitor your bike stand 😉
Poly put up a big post abiut the.media coverage. I have been reading this thread with interest. I thought it an interesting addition to polys post. Which was in part making general pints
However its clearly triggerd some of you not wanting to face uncomfortable truths well documented and accepted widely.
Apologies fir the rhread diversion again. I did not think such an obvious and well founded general point would trigger so many of you
No, the issue is that the point you’re labouring has nothing to do with a submarine disappearing in the Atlantic. Go start a thread about uncomfortable truths and I’m sure the same people will happily engage
@gobuchul One thing that link points out is the number of support vessels in attendance at a "professionally run" dive.
i see that the CEO is the pilot of the missing sub. He may be regretting some decisions now
I wonder if he's got to "hang on a minute lads, I've got a great idea".
If the sub was rescued would everyone be alive? How long before you saw the people you are with as a drain on the available oxygen. Being under that kind of mental strain would make for some very radical impulsive decisions. One less person another 2,3,4 hours of oxygen.
How many climbers are left for dead on big money expeditions such as Everest where it's just a random bunch of people who can afford to pay and there is no bond built up for years between the people present. Maybe not the best analogy or a pleasant one to think about.
Is the sub equipped with an emergency sonar beacon? From what I've read they aren't great, but in this kind of situation having one would certainly be better than not.
<p style="text-align: left;">This might have been answered elsewhere but why is it bolted shut from the outside only? Would it not make sense to bolt from the inside and give them a spanner?</p>
I'm sure there is a good reason but I know nothing about this topic.
You'd be instantly crushed as soon as it's opened. Plus I'd imagine it needs to surface slowly to avoid the bends.*
*I know zero on the subject.
#meta: I am no stranger to robust (cough) online conversation, but some of you need to resist the temptation to join in a pile-on. It comes across as bullying.
Watching the amount of effort going into the search and rescue operation with amazement. Being a billionaire really can mobilise militaries can't it. Wonder what the rewards being offered are?
BBC now running with “What happens when you run out of oxygen”. **** me they really are scraping the ghoulish barrel
Being a billionaire really can mobilise militaries can’t it.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/jun/02/special-forces-aid-workers-afghanistan
Also happens for ordinary folk too, that's one example of many where others have put their lives on the line for non-billionaires.
BBC now running with “What happens when you run out of oxygen”.
I'm guessing this is a shortish article.
Aye. I dont tbink the fact they are rich has a lot to do with the rescue attempt
Coming into this quite late, but I'l chuck in my tuppence worth.
I can't comment on the sub design, but I can comment on keeping in touch with stuff very deep in the ocean. From the ship I work on we put acoustic transponders on the seabed, normally 1000m to 3000m, but they are rated to 4000m. Deeper rating version can be had too. Relatively speaking they are not expensive or large (1.3m x 14cm, 40 kg), and the batteries can keep them running for 40 weeks. Smaller versions also possible. Using a single transponder you could easily resolve its position to less than 10m at that depth.
So, with peoples lives at stake it wouldn't be too much to ask that at least two were fitted to the sides of the sub to maintain a track of it's position at all times. You can also send/receive telemetry commands (no voice comms, though), so some form of situational awarness would be achieved.
I am, quite frankly baffled, and can only assume some form of catastrophic failure, hopefully it was so quick they didn't even know about it.
I think there possibly one of the key reasons so much professional help and effort is being applied is that this rescue atempt is a challenge to the world's best. A lot could be learnt from trying and those who consider themselves the best in the business will relish the challenge. Big kudos also in the successful rescue. Also, when you consider the importance and cost of military subs, maybe there are things to be learnt there.
Someone mentioned it above, but imagine being a father with your son in that position and the existential dilema faced. If I log-off there will be another 20% air. Its a truly awful situation for them no matter what race or net worth. I think one reason we find it fascinating is that it is happening 'live'. The jeopardy is real. Those with empathy can easily imagine being in that situation.
The other comparison the boat people if you will, is that these people had a choice and chose to take risks. One would assume the people on the boat didn't have a choice in taking the trip.
@politecameraaction - TJ knows I love him dearly and we have a great relationship. I'm his realist - reminding him what real people are like - and he's my carer. He cares about things so I don't have to.
Watching the amount of effort going into the search and rescue operation with amazement. Being a billionaire really can mobilise militaries can’t it. Wonder what the rewards being offered are?
I think that is possibly what TJ was pointing out. Would the same level of effort be involved if some migrants were in peril somewhere (which they are every day and all we hear about is how many have died that day)
It does at least appear that mass worldwide help is only offered in certain scenarios, will leave it at that as I agree that is not what this thread is about...
It does at least appear that mass worldwide help is only offered in certain scenarios,
Where there is still time for something to be done.
I would assume there have been no offers of help from our Russian friends....who declined external assistance with the Kursk.
I think there possibly one of the key reasons so much professional help and effort is being applied is that this rescue atempt is a challenge to the world’s best. A lot could be learnt from trying and those who consider themselves the best in the business will relish the challenge.
Agreed, that cave rescue of non white, poor people was an example of the world community coming together to help save lives. Some pretty amazing and pioneering rescue techniques were used too
Wheras the Tory government go out of their way to put asylum seeking immigrants deliberately in harms way by forcing them to cross the channel on totally inappropriate blow up boats.
@kazaha
Prepare to be deleted..... I was . Only mentioned a scene from the Abyss. 😉
They are all a bit "wet" on here 😉
Wheras the Tory government go out of their way to put asylum seeking immigrants deliberately in harms way by forcing them to cross the channel on totally inappropriate blow up boats.
Eh? Wrong thread but can you provide evidence of that or is it a very sweeping stupid comment? I thought the people paid £1000’s to get a ticket on the blow up boats and were being exploited by traffickers not the government.
I guess the link is in both cases people are paying vast sums of money to go on vessels that are quite clearly shonky and then expecting governments to rescue them, so I guess there is a link after all
BBC now running with “What happens when you run out of oxygen”. **** me they really are scraping the ghoulish barrel
I read and watched that piece and its just factual reporting. Bad shit happens and its just human curiosity to want to know about it.
as mentioned above.. a father and son on board
as a father.. I definitely would have been considering improving mine and my sons chances by reducing the oxygen usage of the other inhabitants..
96 hours in the cold dark is a lot of time to change your morals, horrific situation
I guess the link is in both cases people are paying vast sums of money to go on vessels that are quite clearly shonky and then expecting governments to rescue them, so I guess there is a link after all
which is odd as the government wouldn't need to rescue them if they were allowed to use a perfectly good tunnel or one of the many "safe" ferries.
I guess the link is in both cases people are paying vast sums of money to go on vessels that are quite clearly shonky and then expecting governments to rescue them, so I guess there is a link after all
Yet some get more government help than others probably because they are not the 'enemy'
Won’t a lot of the agencies currently responding to this have had the kit and personnel on standby waiting for an event such as this to happen somewhere on the planet?
By responding and putting their plans into action they are carrying out the tasks that they were set up to do, whilst also using this real situation as an opportunity to learn more about their own capabilities and refine them for next time. On the (unpleasant) job training so to speak.
Whether it be tourists, military, oil workers, whatever, they need to have a plan to rescue people from this type of environment.
Prepare to be deleted….. I was . Only mentioned a scene from the Abyss. 😉
Ooooh..... Mary Elizabeth Mastrantonio, I had such a teenage crush on her. Possibly not the most suitable word - infatuation.
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re, having plans and kit on standby
this kit is incredibly expensive, takes a lot of trained crew, both of which are generally kept busy on other jobs
so i guess the emergency plans for any scenario like this are a little vague and have to be approached uniquely depending on the situation/locations/resource availability
Wot @alan1977 said.
If they are any good, they will have risk assessed the dive and should have plans for situations, but something like this maybe listed as being "very unlikely" and so accepted without having a replacement sub and crew on 24/7 standby, but with other mitigations in place.
Note: I am not a risk assessor for deep water submersible operations
I'm also not saying it is like people in UK airports not having snowploughs in hangers, but the same thign sort of applies: It does not snow very often or very much in southern UK, so why invest in large numbers of snowploughs and storage, maintenance, etc for them at Gatwick? Just accept that, once every decade, you get 24 hours of disruption when the planets align and it dumps snow on you.
Won’t a lot of the agencies currently responding to this have had the kit and personnel on standby waiting for an event such as this to happen somewhere on the planet?
None of this kit is sitting on stand by waiting for an event like this.
There are some military submarine rescue systems, including the NATO Submarine Rescue System but they cannot operate at the depth this sub is at. They all have significant limitations.
In some respects they are lucky in that this location is close to St Johns, which is a significant offshore base, which will have vessels with ROVs etc.
The shipping companies won't be doing this nothing either, they will be getting paid by the Coastguard.
Won’t a lot of the agencies currently responding to this have had the kit and personnel on standby waiting for an event such as this to happen somewhere on the planet?
Yes and no. There are military and government teams permanently on standby for submarine rescue (eg. SPAG and the submarine escape vehicle in Faslane) but they have neither the equipment nor need to operate at these depths.
This is firmly in the remit of the major marine salvage companies such as Mammoet, SMIT, etc. They tend not to be on standby as such because there is usually little rush to salvage things. Oil and Gas and merchant navy companies don't send people that deep and if they lose an ROV there is no need to get it back in a matter of days (or never if to costly to recover)
re, having plans and kit on standby
this kit is incredibly expensive, takes a lot of trained crew, both of which are generally kept busy on other jobs
so i guess the emergency plans for any scenario like this are a little vague and have to be approached uniquely depending on the situation/locations/resource availability
But they clearly have it and were able mobilise within a few hours. Whatever the outcome the rescue agencies will get information from this that could save more lives in the future.
Off topic but related - unfortunately a rich white man died swimming the English channel yesterday, and our indefensible government wasted time and money sending military aircraft out to find him when they could have been preventing economic migrants crossing the channel.
RIP Iain Hughes 🙁
If they are any good, they will have risk assessed the dive and should have plans for situations, but something like this maybe listed as being “very unlikely” and so accepted without having a replacement sub and crew on 24/7 standby, but with other mitigations in place.
I don't think many of these operations have a replacement sub on stand by.
However, this lot ignored industry practice and didn't build the sub to recognised standards.
Not seen much from the Tracy brothers, are they not mobilised?
i don't think they did have the kit on standby
no doubt some people got together, made some phone calls to find out who had any usable equipment that can get to a ship (that they could also call upon) within a timescale. i think the ROV mentioned came direct from the manufacturer. so it is either a new build, or in for work and belonging to another company. It's highly unlikely one company put their hand up and said we have everything ready to go
Not seen much from the Tracy brothers, are they not mobilised?
No need, James Bond has teamed up with Ethan Hunt and they're getting it sorted.............
Not seen much from the Tracy brothers, are they not mobilised?
you’d think they would, with all the strings currently being pulled to get everyone together.
But they clearly have it and were able mobilise within a few hours. Whatever the outcome the rescue agencies will get information from this that could save more lives in the future.
They don't. I could be wrong but I've not seen anything from the news on site that is capable of lifting that thing from the sea floor. There is equipment that can find it but recovering it is another matter.
Whilst they may learn things from this I can guarantee you no one is going to invest the many hundreds of millions developing the equipment required to maintain a team capable of rescuing deep sea manned submersibles.
But they clearly have it and were able mobilise within a few hours.
They don't. They have deep water ROV's for offshore construction and maintenance, which can be used to assist but they are not designed to perform this role.
major marine salvage companies such as Mammoet, SMIT, etc.
Mammoet no longer exist in the salvage industry.
SMIT have no capabilities in this sort of work. They are not a Search and Rescue organisation. Their job is too recover ships and cargo to receive a salvage award according to it's value or more frequently, to remove wrecks that the authorities want moving, paid for by the ship owners insurance.
Agree with above
It is not surprising OceanGate didn't have its own rescue operation kit/plan due to the expense of putting it in place.
What I do find surprising is that the great and good would still sign up for this pleasure trip without thinking (or maybe, they did think, but they accepted) the fairy high likelihood of that given the shonky operation and also the awful consequences.
To bring it back to some billionaire bashing (which is what this is all about really isn't it ,😜) it just goes to show many are rich and powerful due to luck rather than skill /intellect.
OK, it might not have all been boxed up in a hangar with an aircraft outside with the engines running. But the kit was available within a very short time scale. My point is that they will use this as an opportunity to learn.
I could be wrong but I’ve not seen anything from the news on site that is capable of lifting that thing from the sea floor. There is equipment that can find it but recovering it is another matter.
There was mention of some US military equipment which was used to retrieve a military aircraft from a similar depth in the South China Sea - it had the capability to attach a hoist line. Whether the same type of anchor points exist on this is another matter.
This was always going to be a recovery rather than a rescue unless they were bobbing on the surface somewhere. I hope they've managed to more or less exclude that as a possibility by now.
magellen have had their kit ready in Jersey PDQ but have been held up by permissions*
*Never saw the thunderbirds having this issue.
There was mention of some US military equipment which was used to retrieve a military aircraft from a similar depth in the South China Sea – it had the capability to attach a hoist line. Whether the same type of anchor points exist on this is another matter.
The operator of that ROV said on the news this morning that it couldnt raise the sub, only attach a line
developing the equipment required to maintain a team capable of rescuing deep sea manned submersibles.
The US has some capability with the CURV-21 ROV for salvaging important things lost at sea.
Deepest its done is 19075 feet for a helicopter.
magellen have had their kit ready in Jersey PDQ but have been held up by permissions
Wow - permissions from who?
OK, it might not have all been boxed up in a hangar with an aircraft outside with the engines running. But the kit was available within a very short time scale. My point is that they will use this as an opportunity to learn.
What "kit"?
From what I understand there is a pipelayer on site, which will have some deepwater capable winches and ROV's. Not sure if it can deal with 4000m mind. They will have no plans or experience of deepwater sub rescue. Their will be some very knowledgeable people making things up as they go along. They will not expect to be doing this again.
The Canadian and US Coastguard may take this an opportunity to learn but I doubt that the offshore companies will.
The bbc have a famous oceanographer quoted as saying that in hindsight the fact the sub was not certified was cause for concern
Im struggling to see why much hindsight is required here tbh..
@gobuchul - It's been a good number of years since I did anything in that area. They were just a couple of salvage companies I had contact with and could remember the names of.
@Harry_the_Spider - The kit still isn't available and on site from what I can see. There is a deep sea working class ROV there but it is very unlikely to be capable of recovering the submersible. I haven't seen any winching system on the vessels that can recover it. The most likely thing capable would be an oil and gas vessel used for subsea infrastructure installation. I doubt there are any available in that region that can be there in the required timeframes.
Not seen much from the Tracy brothers, are they not mobilised?
They've already flown Paul Gascoigne over with emergency fish and chips.
The operator of that ROV said on the news this morning that it couldnt raise the sub, only attach a line
I thought the point was that this line would then be reeled in from a large surface vessel?
In the likely forthcoming shit-storm of legal claims against OceanGate where the discovery phase will reveal there is an unofficial risk register buried in a project managers files where the outcome was listed as “loss of vessel and crew” and the only mitigation was “buy more insurance”.
The US has some capability with the CURV-21 ROV for salvaging important things lost at sea.
Deepest its done is 19075 feet for a helicopter.
That is just a working class ROV with various attachments. It can't lift anything by itself. It'll be used to find things, cut them free if stuck then attach a winch line for recovery.
In the likely forthcoming shit-storm of legal claims against OceanGate
I'm sure the shredder is whirring as we speak, and the directors busy transferring their personal assets into their relatives' names.
My mate was round last night who's spent his career in the Royal Navy, a good chunk of which was on nuclear subs, including 'going global' under the polar icecaps.
We were on about this and I asked him if he would have got in this 'submersible'
his answer?
'Not a ****ing chance!'
no doubt some people got together, made some phone calls to find out who had any usable equipment that can get to a ship
Don’t think you really have to call. In this sort of thing you see a lot of offers of assistance
I’m sure the shredder is whirring as we speak, and the directors busy transferring their personal assets into their relatives’ names.
Well the CEO is on the sub. So he won't be worrying about a court appearance.
They’ve already flown Paul Gascoigne over with emergency fish and chips
I shouldn’t have laughed at this should I..
They’ve already flown Paul Gascoigne over with emergency fish and chips.
A fishing rod and some chicken surely?
Of course the upside to all this is that Netflix will have a 6 part documentary series out within the year. They're probably signing various experts up right now for talking heads roles.
Actually, forget the Tracy Brothers, where is Troy Tempest and WASP?
Of course the upside to all this is that Netflix will have a 6 part documentary series out within the year.
If you can't wait for that...they already have another 'amateur submarining goes wrong' doco.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt11394296/
where is Troy Tempest and WASP?
Last i heard his Stingray was stuck in a Marina...
To bring it back to some billionaire bashing (which is what this is all about really isn’t it ,😜) it just goes to show many are rich and powerful due to luck rather than skill /intellect.
or you could say that the rest of us are not rich because we are too risk averse to take a chance! In fact I think most rich people are rich because a parent was rich.