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ULB’s fitted to aircraft are rated to 6000m….
In height or depth? Not even comparable if you talking height
Won’t someone think of the poo…
They have a toilet
Mrs FD was saying they will want to pass out from Carbon Dioxide poisoning rather than lack of oxygen, as basically lack of oxygen will feel like suffocating, at least carbon dioxide poisoning will mean they just fall asleep
So that means when its getting to the end , they all need to fart - a lot
ULB = Underwater Locator Beacon.
Sounds like they could have fitted kit. But didn't.
Misquoting the cost of operating the boat perhaps? I’d not be surprised if you wanted to charter a boat that size if the price wasn’t £100k/day?
That heap of junk will be nowhere near £100k a day. It's a 60 year old buoy tender. You would get a half decent construction vessel for that price.
there are no holes in the hull
There are. The hull has titanium end pieces. This is where they have the penetrations and the hatch. There are no penetrations in the composite sections.
In height or depth? Not even comparable if you talking height
Underwater: https://www.skybrary.aero/articles/underwater-locator-beacon-ulb
Yes but these need power that would have to come from an external battery that would, again, be crushed well before it reaches the target depth.
not necessarily - i have successfully hydro tested and deployed batteries for RFID and pressure sensing equipment - albe it Batteries that cost as much as a car mind. Deeper than the subs rated for. - small vessels are not so bad to get to depth (4/6 inches in diameter)- but big vessels for humans with windows - No thanks
ULB = Underwater Locator Beacon.
Sounds like they could have fitted kit. But didn’t.
Reads like an aircraft ULB is activated by water contact. Perhaps they'd need a ULB that transmits full time during the dive on a different frequency that is only for the Titan, not interfering with other systems, if that were possible/allowed.
there is plenty of mature, stable, commercially available technology that could of (should of?) been fitted to make this vessel safer.
why and who made the decisions not too, I'm guessing will be a matter for the lawyers.
So, is there technology to transmit a distress signal already existing or that could have be adapted?
Would extra weight/kit have meant one less paying passenger or pushed the price up too far? Hence not using it.
Submersibles have gone deeper than this. Were they similarly equipped?
there is plenty of mature, stable, commercially available technology that could of (should of?) been fitted to make this vessel safer.
why and who made the decisions not too, I’m guessing will be a matter for the lawyers.
I'm guessing that it's a lot to do with keeping weight as low as possible, which then allows the sub to operate from smaller, simpler ships. This keeps the operating cost as low as possible.
I can't see that the composite hull build cost would be less than more traditional materials but it avoids the need for very expensive buoyancy.
I think they were trying to do it as cheap and as simple as possible.
This article gives a good insight into their mindset. They are innovative pioneers who know better than the rest.
https://oceangate.com/news-and-media/blog/2019-0221-why-titan-is-not-classed.html
Mrs FD was saying they will want to pass out from Carbon Dioxide poisoning rather than lack of oxygen, as basically lack of oxygen will feel like suffocating, at least carbon dioxide poisoning will mean they just fall asleep
Unfortunately there is a significant amount of evidence that carbon dioxide poisoning does not involve peacefully drifting off into oblivion, instead being painful and triggering a stress response on a biological level. If that's how they go they will almost certainly know that it's happening.
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1258/0023677053739747
Submersibles have gone deeper than this. Were they similarly equipped?
A quick google seems to suggest that most submersibles with similar (or better) operating depths aren't built on this sort of shoestring budget. They're either military/government funded or James Camerons toy. (Or don't have people in them, so effectively disposable).
I’m not sure why people are struggling with this…whilst there are a very few commercially built submersibles which are capable of descending to the depths we are talk about, they are extremely expensive to build and operate safely. So rather than go down this route, a business man and inventor with a plan has conceived and built a backyard special on a budget much smaller than actually needed. Then through his sales pitch and personality he has pursueded those with more money than sense to buy tickets.
A cursory examination of the design and a few conversations with those in the industry would have made its shortcomings obvious enough to anyone with the ware with all to pay for a ticket let alone two. Even if I was brave or stupid enough to take on those odds because of the rewards (or bragging rights) of seeing the Titanic for real, there is absolutely no excuse for taking a 19 year old along who probably had no idea of the risk or even possibly a choice in going, knowing the dominance and certainty of a successful businessman in his chosen decisions.
The pilot and other scientific guy knew the risks, the business man should have worked them out and I feel very very sorry for the young lad who was in the wrong place at the wrong time.
"The people that have been mentioned several times already just in this thread?"
"I suspect he was referring to the efforts of the navy, coast guard and other private organizations…and yes I agree it’s pretty distasteful"
Correct - I'm not talking about this thread, but the efforts from navy, coastguards etc but also more specifically the massive press coverage.
Mrs FD was saying they will want to pass out from Carbon Dioxide poisoning rather than lack of oxygen, as basically lack of oxygen will feel like suffocating, at least carbon dioxide poisoning will mean they just fall asleep
Other way around. Lack of oxygen causes hypoxia, which leads to a euphoric state and then unconsciousness. CO2 poisoning is an exceptionally unpleasant way to go.
@whatgoesup that's fair, I'm absolutely with you there.
Unfortunately there is a significant amount of evidence that carbon dioxide poisoning does not involve peacefully drifting off into oblivion
It's not lack of oxygen that causes the panicky 'must breathe' reflex - try holding your breath as long as possible, it's the build up of CO2 that isn't getting exhaled and the build up in your blood that causes it. If the CO2 is slowly building up I would imagine it's really not nice.
As others have said, low oxygen without the CO2 build up causes the blissful ignorance effect - as they say on aeroplanes, fit your mask before helping others because even in the time taken to put your kid's mask on, you might then become all giggly and incapable. Put yours on and who cares if they start to become incapacitated, as long as you can then get their mask on in 2-3 minutes they will recover as quick as they went giggly.
Portillo did a TV program on the death penalty, where he was effectively executed with nitrogen. That will displace the oxygen in the air, but you can still breathe out the CO2 and it doesn't reach that level of panic before you become unconscious and eventually die. Sadly (! 😉 ) they then brought him back but it would be very effective and humane (as humane as state sanctioned murder of its citizens can be) One of the arguments against seemed to be whether witnesses seeing their child's killer depart the world in a euphoric state of bliss was appropriate.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7183957.stm
Back to the sub. If I was in such a situation, I think having a smallish cylinder of pure nitrogen or helium or whatever as a suicide 'if all else fails press here' would be a relief.
The banging thats been heard. Do you think its from the sub?
Last year David Pogue, from US TV network CBS, joined an OceanGate expedition to the Titanic and was told the submersible had seven safety systems to help it return to the surface.
Triple weights: three lead pipes that can be dropped using hydraulics to gain buoyancy
Roll weights: if the hydraulic systems fail those inside the sub can tilt the sub by moving to each side of it releasing weights held in place on each side by gravity
Ballast bags: motors can be used to release bags full of metal shot hanging beneath the sub
Fusible links: bonds that disintegrate after 16 hours in seawater to drop the ballast bags if the electrics and hydraulics fail
Thrusters: to push it to the surface
Sub's legs: the pilot can jettison the sub's legs as dead weight
Airbag: the crew can inflate an airbag to provide buoyancy
Seems it does have a lot of the features being discussed
The banging thats been heard. Do you think its from the sub?
If it's every 30 mins and has a rhythm or pattern (expect it would) it must be? Either that or a newly discovered species, the Atlantic Drum 'n' Bass Shark. Or something else entirely, that we'd prefer to stay down there..
Presumably if they get to the surface they would be able to use a satellite phone and handheld GPS given that they're inside a carbon tube (not metal)?
Just appeared on the BBC.
A submarine search and rescue expert in Australia, Frank Owen, tells the BBC his “confidence went up by an order of magnitude” when he heard reports of banging being detected by floating sound detectors.
“There's a couple of reasons for that,” he explains. “Firstly, on board this craft is a retired French navy diver. He would know the protocol for trying to alert searching forces… on the hour and the half hour you bang like hell for three minutes.”
He says the sound signal being picked by a buoy close to the surface also suggests that the sub itself could be near or at the surface.
“Below about 180 metres, the water temperature drops very rapidly,” he explained. “That creates a layer that the [sonar signal] bounces off. But if you’re in the same depth water it tends to go quite straight.”
Even if Titan is at the surface, it will be difficult to spot. Very little of the small, white vessel sits above the water.
But using an array of sound-detecting buoys to triangulate the signal could narrow down its position.
If these poor sods die because they can't be spotted bobbing about on the surface then it really is a tragedy.
The banging thats been heard. Do you think its from the sub?
I recon the musicians on the actual Titanic have long stopped playing their music. So unless it's Nessie on her holidays...
Where is Muskman?
Normally he’d be all over this.
I know, he's even got a wildly-unsuitable sub he could offer to send, then he could call the search organiser a 'paedo' when the offer is rebuffed.
Is it heated? Must be pretty cold down there - just wondering whether a potential noise would indicate it's more likely to be at or near the surface?
This long thread on Twitter from John Scott Railton is essential reading - looks like everyone in the industry knew this was a bit of an overreach.......Worth reading to the end and some whistleblower testimony
https://twitter.com/jsrailton/status/1671087361755697154?s=20
If these poor sods die because they can’t be spotted bobbing about on the surface then it really is a tragedy.
if they are on the surface and can’t get out then that really is a lack of contingency planning from the company. Not sure if a satellite phone would work from inside the sub, but if not surely some kind of way to open it up from inside would be a bare minimum…even a drill and a saw would be better than nothing!
also, why on earth is it painted white. Surely to god someone would have done a risk assessment and realised if this eventuality occurred, painting it orange would be a far better option
the whole operation appears to be run by amateurs
"Reasonable" is doing an awful lot of heavy lifting in that mission statement.
It's like a group of people have spent a night buying someone endless very expensive drinks in a bar and then asked them for a lift home.
As obviously unwise things to do it's right up there. This really doesn't need hindsight does it.
, why on earth is it painted white.
White is more visible underwater.
If it's on the surface surely a SAR aircraft with heat cameras could find it quite easily. They could cover quite a distance in a fairly short time.
Even if they could open the top [which doesn't seem to the location of the access hatch] it might sink pretty quickly if it doesn't have much freeboard (bit above the water) and there are any waves.
To the people drawing a parallel between the efforts being put into this 'rescue' vs the terribly sad refugee boat capsize - I don't think it's anything to do with the fact that the people stuck in this sub are rich, it's just a common human trait that you can empathize more easily with one or two people than hundreds. Look at the Chilean miners, or the Thai cave rescue - people caught onto the fact that there is a limited time window to save people caught in a horrifying situation and that's what people respond to. It's not lack of empathy for the 500, nor action being taken solely for some ill advised billionaires. if it was research scientists down there I think the efforts would be the same.
The refugee boat capsize took the majority of the fatalities to the bottom of the sea, trapped inside the boat. They weren't going to be rescued.
These people are possibly still alive.
If it’s on the surface surely a SAR aircraft with heat cameras could find it quite easily. They could cover quite a distance in a fairly short time.
Only if you know where the point the camera. The ocean is a big place and even high-def TI cameras still aren’t high definition at all compared to a TV camera
Stevet1 - I agree that it likely wouldn’t make any difference if they were research scientists (although most scientist are smart enough to know you can do deep sea research without going on a sun yourself!), but I think there’s something wrong in your analysis of why “we” get excited about some dramas more than others. It “helps” if we have names and faces to relate to. It “helps” if there is a deadline and some feeling of slight hope. It “helps” if the drama/risk seems to be in a really difficult location. But there is more money being spent on this attempted rescue than on many other rescues of sailors, mountaineers etc. sometimes a story just seems to resonate with the media - I think that’s as much to do with it being different than the number of people involved. If subs got lost every month this would be a footnote on the news.
There's the Titanic Factor in this too. If it had just disappeared in to some deep ocean trench then there may have been less interest.
The pilot and other scientific guy knew the risks,
I'm particularly surprised by Hamish Harding who had previously been down to the Challenger Deep (11000m) in DSV Limiting Factor which makes Titan look a very amateur affair.
Also helps if they ate white.
at least 40% of the people in the missing sub are not white.
Also helps if they ate white
well in this case two of them aren’t..
General point and a well proven one
Also helps if they ate white
In the 2 most recent examples I can think of, the people involved weren't white - Chilean Miners and Thai boys in the mine.
I’m particularly surprised by Hamish Harding who had previously been down to the Challenger Deep (11000m) in DSV Limiting Factor which makes Titan look a very amateur affair.
Not a surprise that Limiting Factor is built to DNV classification standards.
The very standards that the Oceangate CEO rubbished.
Im sure in the first couple of pages someone said this would appear...
https://newrepublic.com/post/173802/missing-titanic-sub-faced-lawsuit-depths-safely-travel-oceangate
The viewing hatch was only guaranteed by the manufacturer to 1,300 meters due to the experimental nature of construction... alhough this was 2018 so hopefully they got a new one!
I would argue it isn't race per-se, but culture. Someone living in a wealthy western culture is more likely to identify with others the same. That a large proportion of those people will be caucasian is coincidence, not the cause.
A flood in a suburb/town in australia tugs at our heartstrings more than one a mountain village in central asia, because we can identify with it. Videos last year of bombs landing in Ukraine, it looked like any european city. That means more than the fleeing faces and bodies being white.
While I'm assuming nobody on here can afford a 250k holiday/jolly even if they didn't have to pay again for their kids, most of us are used to spaffing our disposable income on things we will enjoy, rather than mere survival.
As someone above said, we are all rich in global terms. Whether that means that in reality we are closer to a billionaire than a war refugee or not, is up for debate but for a lot of people the idea of fleeing your home and crossing the world in a death trap with a snake head is probably something they have never considered. Ooh I want to go somewhere interesting for my holiday is a lot more realistic. Even if your level of interesting holiday is getting a bus to the next county and looking at an old church.
Christ so not only now is this rescue biased because its rich people, the rescuers are also racist now
I am in the camp of this being about trying to overcome an adverse situation to save human lives - yes I know there is something voyeuristic about that, but we all like the element of jeopardy in whether they will be found alive or dead (if found at all)
On the bright side I knew my exhaustive knowledge of Clive Cussler novels would come in useful one day.
I was thinking about this thread last night, and how some of the properly expert views are brilliant, but there are so many people obviously relying on the expert opinion of thriller novels and films. (I thought Tom Clancy, maybe Alistair Maclean, but Cussler is closer!). But that's the internet, isn't it. People don't have any doubt that their misheard GCSE physics or Das Boot inside info must actually be the real answer, and for a few seconds they are Expert. Even if they are hopelessly wrong.
😀
Christ on a bendy bus TJ! Never heard such abject twaddle. I suppose the rescuers are also homophobic and transphobic for good measure too?
Definitely every Cussler Dirk Pitt novel has some form of unlikely underwater escape. Whether thats a sub, scuba, caving etc.
There's one that sticks in my mind - where a deep water sub had a pin prick leak, too small to seethe incoming water in poor light, and too minor to have immediate flooding concerns, but the water jet was at such a pressure it could cut someone in half.
Is that even vaguely realistic?
put your hand in front of the jet from your pressure washer... now make the pressure 3?4? times greater, and the jet thinner
water jet cutting is a thing for material cutting, but a quick search tells me a bout 20000PSI upwards? 4 times greater than this but that would be to cut metals most likely
Yes, i have heard of water jet cutting plate steel before. Pre laser technologies though.
Yes, i have heard of water jet cutting plate steel before. Pre laser technologies though.
It's used a lot in Offshore decommissioning. It also used for cutting up UXO.
I have seen one demonstrated that could cut through 8" steel plate.
People don’t have any doubt that their misheard GCSE physics or Das Boot inside info must actually be the real answer, and for a few seconds they are Expert. Even if they are hopelessly wrong.
I don't know why we haven't just sent Trident down there to rescue it, I assume it's got a tow hitch. Imagine the positive publicity Sunak could get off of that.
The interview on R4 with the journalist on a different sub that got tangled with the Titanic said that in his briefing was told if there's a breach then you won't drown, but be cut to ribbons by the stream of water.
I don’t know why we haven’t just sent Trident.......
Probably because Trident is a missile and they are not much use underwater.
water jet cutting plate steel before. Pre laser technologies though
Still widely used and same principle behind hydroforming
Yes, i have heard of water jet cutting plate steel before. Pre laser technologies though.
Still use it now for some alloys that don't like being cut hot, laser isn't all it's cut out to be.
Everybody is talking about them running out of air, but what about water supplies? Rule of thumb is that you'll die after 3 days without water and I can't imagine them taking much down with them..............
Rule of thumb is that you’ll die after 3 days without water and I can’t imagine them taking much down with them…………..
7 days without water, 14 without food is what I used to understand. I imagine for an 8 hour dive (which they were 2 hours into when things went wrong) they'd have had a couple of bottles of water each, so should be fine.
The longest someone is known to have gone without water was in the case of Andreas Mihavecz, an 18-year-old Austrian bricklayer who was left locked in a police cell for 18 days in 1979 after the officers on duty forgot about him. His case even made it into the Guinness Book of World Records.
The rule of thumb I understood as 4 minutes without air, 4 days without water and 4 weeks without food.
Although Google says after 3 days without water, you won't be in a good way.
Someone living in a wealthy western culture is more likely to identify with others the same.
A bit OT but we're all far more likely to become a refugee than a billionaire. Maybe it's a good empathy test to think whether we identify with someone that wealthy any more or less than someone with nothing, escaping a war zone and unsure where they'll end up in life.
I think we all fear death and that's where we should be able to empathise with people in this situation. Tbh it's the sub tech and the interest in the expedition that got me here but the idea they might all die, so publicly too, it's not good.
I think it's tragic in the case of the 500 migrants in Greece who were desperate. In the case of a wealthy explorer in the ocean or Everest.. not sure how to put it or what the point is, but they've had the opportunity to do and see so much in life, they died doing something they loved. It's sad, just different.
A flood in a suburb/town in australia tugs at our heartstrings more than one a mountain village in central asia, because we can identify with it.
Don't agree personally as it's not about identifying with people, it's empathy and I think there's a difference there? Maybe not, just semantics. I think you're right about why the media latch onto one more than the other though.
They should see if they can find that necklace the old woman dropped while they're down there, it'll be worth a fortune by now.
The rule of thumb I understood as 4 minutes without air, 4 days without water and 4 weeks without food.
Although Google says after 3 days without water, you won’t be in a good way.
It must depend on the amount of water you lose as sweat. In a dry warm climate that will be very different from the damp, sealed tube they are in. If someone went to the trouble of putting in 96h of air for an 8h mission then there's probably enough water to keep them going for the same time (thats a bold assumption on their design logic) - if each one took 2L of water with them (which seems a sensible amount for the planned mission then they know they have an issue 2h in so you ration it, and 500 mL per day will be plenty.
, why on earth is it painted white.
Underwater the light is blue-ish, so red/orange would just look black.
I have cut stone with a Nilfisk at work.
Underwater the light is blue-ish, so red/orange would just look black.
True, but there is also a risk of it being "lost" on the surface.
I don’t know why we haven’t just sent Trident down there to rescue it, I assume it’s got a tow hitch. Imagine the positive publicity Sunak could get off of that.
I assume by Trident you mean one of our Vanguard class subs?
They cannot dive anywhere near that depth - their dive depth is classified (and i don't know the exact number) but its less than 1000m.
Which is why NATOs submarine rescue dept can only operate down to 1000m - as if any large NATO military sub goes below that depth it'll have exceeded its crush depth and there won't be much worth rescuing.
I assume by Trident you mean one of our Vanguard class subs?
Probably better to assume it was a joke instead
A bit OT but we’re all far more likely to become a refugee than a billionaire.
Yup, I certainly don't identify with a billionaire anymore than I do a refugee.
I think the reason so much interest is shown to this particular story is that, like the Chilean miners and the Thai school kids, the story is both fairly unique and slowly unfurling at the same time.
Sadly a boat full of desperate refugees sinking is both fairly common and we usually only hear about it after the event.
True, but there is also a risk of it being “lost” on the surface.
True, and you'd think it would have a drogue anchor of some sort as well as presumably which should make it easier to spot.
DSV Limiting Factor
Sounds like a ship from an Ian M Banks novel.
Sounds like a ship from an Ian M Banks novel.
Looks a bit like one too.
too small to seethe incoming water in poor light, and too minor to have immediate flooding concerns, but the water jet was at such a pressure it could cut someone in half.
Is that even vaguely realistic?
High pressure steam for a turbine gets flung out a boiler at 160 bar, that's enough to cut you in half and doesn't have much in the way of volume. Obviously water will be 1000 times as dense but will do the same damage. As for seeing it, stick with a rag waved in front of you and the flooding risk depends on what your bilge pumps can handle.
I think the point about these guys vs the immigrants in the sunk trawler, is that in that case by the time anyone knew about it, everyone was already dead. Where as these are more like Schrodinger's Billionaires.
i see that the CEO is the pilot of the missing sub. He may be regretting some decisions now 🙁