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Gobuchul, I was suggesting if you emergency escaped, not the pressure housing was released and allowed to ascend, that you'd be instantly pulped. nearly 6000 psi would do a lot to the human body, I know this is obvious to most just clearing up that there can be no emergency escape installed
That doesn’t seem right.
Bunker oil is about $600 per tonne, gas oil more like $800. So that’s at least 1250 tonnes of fuel.
The trip to Titanic was 8 days at sea, no way is that Polar Prince burning 150 tonne of fuel a day.
Listen, I've seen the back of a fag packet he does all his calculations on, it's a genuine figure.
it didn't seem right even from a spending our total income on fuel point of view - but an odd comment from the guy that runs the company?!
”In one journey the company can go through $1m worth of fuel, OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush told CBS News last year.”
Misquoting the cost of operating the boat perhaps? I'd not be surprised if you wanted to charter a boat that size if the price wasn't £100k/day?
Or are we miss-defining "trip", a short hop from St Johns to the Titanic, or a trip to the South Pole?
Interesting how people are averse to discussing the pros/cons of billionaires and their silly hobbies but very intersted in how much fuel it takes to dive to the Titanic. 🤔
the impression you crashed on a low risk, easy bit of trail. So the people thinking that are doing you something of a disservice
Not everyone is a riding god.
If I was going to cast anyone as “deserving less sympathy” in all of this it’s the owners/operators of ‘Ocean Gate’ as they’re clearly chasing money more than safety…
At least he is f-in over the 0.01% and not exploiting the masses for his gain.
odd that the the adventure chap had founded an aviation company where the industry runs on "have I done enough to cover my arse in case of an accident" and been down to the Mariana Trench.
Surely one look at the shonky hot water tank vessel would have you drawing comparisons to the previous vessel you'd been in & deciding you're out?
Interesting thread except for all the weird envy politics stuff. Can’t you start a new thread to moan about people with more money than yourselves.
the standard hard right response - and its bollox. No envy being shown here at all - just a few folk with a social conscience pointing out billionaires1) impoverish others by hoarding wealth and 2) can never spend all their money
Have been reading this but not paying attention to news, but apparently they are deepening the search. A proper daft question but should they be checking the bottom for a pulverised object?
Assuming surface searches also being done, would it not be sensible to check the seabed? Aware they may not have the right kit yet...
It sounds awful...
Could’ve fed someone in many parts of the world for a week (the money, not the bar!). Do I get scorned and deserve to die now?
By the time you've spent 1/4 million on Cadburys (perish the thought) you would be dead and I personally would still laugh at you because you would be fat and probably dead.
see how much wear and tear an 11 year old can put one of those through.
14 year old me put the mouse on our 1994 computer through a lot more stress.
jambourgie
Free MemberInteresting thread except for all the weird envy politics stuff.
Yeah you're right, everyone is super jealous of these almost certainly dead people.
Interesting how people are averse to discussing the pros/cons of billionaires and their silly hobbies but very intersted in how much fuel it takes to dive to the Titanic.
If you want to discuss the former, go and start a thread, and leave those that want to talk about subs on the thread talking about subs.
the standard hard right response – and its bollox. No envy being shown here at all – just a few folk with a social conscience pointing out billionaires1) impoverish others by hoarding wealth and 2) can never spend all their money
Who may well be slowly suffocating to death while you type that.
and leave those that want to talk about subs on the thread talking about subs.
Thread's not about subs though is it? It's about the people who are on it, and that's what we're talking about.
A proper daft question but should they be checking the bottom for a pulverised object?
Its been reported a pipe laying vessel with a deep water ROV has got to the area. At least one French ship is on the way as well.
Not much stuff capable of going that deep though and it wont help that the Titanic debris is there to clog up sensors.
It isnt just going to be pulverised but trapped (an earlier Russian expedition got caught against the stern and took about 30mins to get free).
No conspiracy theories of a large life insurance policy and a lot of secret debt? Be easy to sail off from there to a remote island undetected 😉
It isnt just going to be pulverised but trapped (an earlier Russian expedition got caught against the stern and took about 30mins to get free).
How do you know? It's one theory certainly but a hull failure would also lead to it becoming pulverised (i'm guessing it would anyway?). Does anyone know how long it takes to get down there, and thus how far along that journey they likely were when contact ceased?
How do you know? I
Mistyped. Meant that being trapped was an alternative to hull failure.
👍
No conspiracy theories of a large life insurance policy and a lot of secret debt?
Give a couple of weeks of searching and people will start to talk.
certainly but a hull failure would also lead to it becoming pulverised (i’m guessing it would anyway?). Does anyone know how long it takes to get down there, and thus how far along that journey they likely were when contact ceased?
Sky saying "lost contact 75mins into 2.5 hour descent and 2.5 hours to get back up".
Still can't believe so called intelligent people do this, oh well "natural selection" may eventually get rid of these parasites.
Not if they've already reproduced before the trip.
If they did somehow find themselves outside the sub they wouldn't be crushed. The human body is more than 60% water which isn't compressible and a quick google suggests that you'd have to be more than 35km down to be hurt by the pressure.
Having enough air to get to the surface would be one of the may issues as you'd have to be breathing something very exotic at that depth plus you'd need many very long decompression stops on the way up along with a vast quantity of gas.
Pressure cylinders - I'm no expert but some types of scuba cylinders are 300 bar and they do carbon versions as well. I know its a much smaller scale but the technology exisits.
5labFull Member
No conspiracy theories of a large life insurance policy and a lot of secret debt? Be easy to sail off from there to a remote island undetected 😉
The billionaire's version of kayaking in the north sea
I'm going to blame the Logitech controller, I've got 2 of them on my PC and they're forever being disconnected. I've not known any other USB device like it to be honest!
If they did somehow find themselves outside the sub they wouldn’t be crushed.
True, but the collapse of the sub would likely squish them
Losing contact halfway down seems like it's less likely to be a collapse though, as there's not nearly as much pressure there?
The guy on the radio described the xbox controller.
He said it had one knob. Push forward to go forward, back to go back, left to go left and right to go right.
He never mentioned up and down. So I think that may be the issue.
Has anyone considered the idea that the sub builder said it was unsinkable and then the operator wanted to set a record and impress the wealthy passengers so the captain was put under pressure to push the tolerances and then it hit an object in the water and then sank.
Then Rose wouldn't let Jack get on her floating door so he drowned.
Just a thought
http://www.whoi.edu/know-your-ocean/did-you-know/why-is-pressure-different-in-the-ocean/
Worth a quick read
It’s bad enough that billionaires exist at all, even if they spend their money on ‘nice’ things. However for them to rub our noses in it by spending what would be life changing amounts of money for most of us on pleasure trips to the bottom of the ocean shows us how much they care about us little people. They deserve as much respect or sympathy as they show us. F ’em!
The guy who founded the company I work for is now a billionaire (thanks to his continued major shareholding). He has changed hundreds of lives (paying off mortgages, putting employees kids though private school/university). He pays approx a million quid in tax, every week. When he comes into the office (we have a few now, 2000 plus employees) he brings in a suitcase full of fifties, and hands them all out to folk who happen to be there. His plan for the money once he shuffles off is for it all to go to charity. They aren’t all *s.
No idea what his appetite for submarining is though.
This type of thing just reinforces my preconceptions that many billionaires are just lucky with somebody else’s money.
Never mind about lovely billionaires. What I want to know is how deep you'd need to be in order to become spherical?
Listening to an interview with the journalist who went down on. it- apparently there are 7 different emergency methods of getting the sub to the surface- air bladders, propellers, dropping off the sub's legs and so on- his inference is that if they've not come up then they're either trapped in debris or suffered a leak and are dead.
Apparently there were construction tubes in racks on the outside, and they can be tumbled off by the passengers leaning to one side, tilting the sub.
As to leaks, William Beebe who went down in the Bathysphere in the 30's said that if they'd struck a leak, they wouldn't have had time to drown- that that first drops of water coming in would have been like bullets at that pressure.
I once met Roger Mallinson, the only living survivor of of the deepest submarine rescue to date. Was staying in a holiday let nextdoor to his place in Troutbeck Bridge.
Fascinating guy, about whom there's tonnes more to say. The rescue took place in 1973, but as far as he's concerned, it might as well have been yesterday. Still utterly preoccupied with it and very focused on the individual he believed was at fault.
Details of the rescue are mind-boggling. Spent 76 hours at 480 m. They'd have suffocated if he hadn't taken a back up oxygen cylinder against orders. Worst detail for me was the fact that he had food poisoning from eating a bad pie in Manchester before shipping out. He had nothing to shit/puke into apart from a solitary plastic shopping bag.
I wish there was this level of concern for the plight of poor people, migrants, refugees, famine victims. Maybe the five HUNDRED poor people on the boat off the coast of Greece for example.
RockhopperFree Member
If they did somehow find themselves outside the sub they wouldn’t be crushed. The human body is more than 60% water which isn’t compressible and a quick google suggests that you’d have to be more than 35km down to be hurt by the pressure.
I didn't pay much attention at school, particularly in physics, but I doubt the human lungs cab deal with that much pressure.
he brings in a suitcase full of fifties, and hands them all out to folk who happen to be there.
Sounds like bo*****s. Also sounds like tax dodging.
Now we know how people can afford Trickstuff parts.
Sounds like bo*****s. Also sounds like tax dodging.
if you say so.
I could count on my fingers and toes the individuals in the UK who pay more tax than him.
He’s not been to my office while I’d been at the company yet.
Pressure cylinders – I’m no expert but some types of scuba cylinders are 300 bar and they do carbon versions as well. I know its a much smaller scale but the technology exisits.
Our SCBA cylinders at work, composite funnily enough, were filled to 300 bar. That's not really unusual.
Yes, you can die falling off a bike but it’s not very likely.
If you have a half decent bike it probably won’t suffer a catastrophic structural failure.
Sounds like made up bollocks to me. I've had two catastrophic failures on bikes (1 frame and 1 wheel) over the years and both could have resulted in serious injury if I'd been unlucky.
I wish there was this level of concern for the plight of poor people, migrants, refugees, famine victims. Maybe the five HUNDRED poor people on the boat off the coast of Greece for example.
What? The people that have been mentioned several times already just in this thread?
<p style="text-align: left;">that billionaire story sounds all a bit wolf of Wall Street. midgets involved?</p>
tragic as it is for those in the sub and their families. I do think it is a very interesting comparison with the level of interest and effort compared to the even more tragic deaths of those migrants off Greece. hundreds of children ffs
half decent bike it probably won’t suffer a catastrophic structural failure.
Tell that to the chap who ended up paralysed due to Fox’s dropout design
The people that have been mentioned several times already just in this thread?
I suspect he was referring to the efforts of the navy, coast guard and other private organizations…and yes I agree it’s pretty distasteful
Also..
All this comparing going down in an experimental sub to the ocean depths with mountain biking is slightly ridiculous. Many thousands of people in the uk regularly ride off road with limited consequences, whereas we are hearing from several experienced navy submariners who are saying no way they’d get in that ocean gate contraption. The levels of risk involved are not even comparable
Back on topic, I’ve heard a couple of different opinions on how easy it would be to recover if they do find it intact. Apparently the navy has a remote sub that could quite conceivably be used to winch it to safety, even if it is trapped
i suspect it’s been crushed into a thousand little pieces already however
Did anyone catch the interview on R4 with Michael Guillen?
ex-ABC science editor Michael Guillen revealed his own terrifying experience in 2000 when he became the first TV correspondent to visit the wreck
This was more than 20 years ago and
sounded absolutely terrifying.
I'm sure this kind of thing is perfectly normal in the development process for a machine that is going to operate with humans inside it at the limits of current engineering knowhow.
https://newrepublic.com/post/173802/missing-titanic-sub-faced-lawsuit-depths-safely-travel-oceangate
we are hearing from several experienced navy submariners who are saying no way they’d get in that ocean gate contraption. The levels of risk involved are not even comparable
That's the difference between coming from a position of experience and one of ignorance.
I've signed waivers with RISK OF DEATH!!!11!ONE! written on them, if you don't actually fully understand the risk how is it any different to any other waiver that gets a cursory glance if at all?
I think though, the comparison was made to highlight the hipocrisy of criticising the top 1% for their frivolous hobbies whilst spending mindblowing amounts for the bottom 90% on equally frivolous hobbies. FFS I spent probably 2 months of wages for the bottom 1% just on booze and a meal today.
They're human beings FFS and I doubt the driver was a billionaire if that makes any difference. Some folk on here are really horrible bastards, like there's some sort of inverse scale where a life no longer matters. Find some ****ing empathy, that's a horrible way to die that I wouldnt wish on anyone.
fasthaggis
Full Member
Did anyone catch the interview on R4 with Michael Guillen?
I think this is potentially about to be on newsnight if anyone interested right now!
<p style="box-sizing: border-box; margin: 0px 0px 0.5rem; line-height: 1.5rem; color: #000000; font-family: Roboto, 'Helvetica Neue', Arial, 'Noto Sans', sans-serif, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, 'Segoe UI', 'Apple Color Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', 'Segoe UI Symbol', 'Noto Color Emoji'; background-color: #eeeeee;">I’m sure this kind of thing is perfectly normal in the development process for a machine that is going to operate with humans inside it at the limits of current engineering knowhow.</p>
Man, that's grim reading - what's left of these poor sods are never going to be found, are they. 🙁
I think though, the comparison was made to highlight the hipocrisy of criticising the top 1% for their frivolous hobbies whilst spending mindblowing amounts for the bottom 90% on equally frivolous hobbies. FFS I spent probably 2 months of wages for the bottom 1% just on booze and a meal today.
a few usual suspects have made some not particularly pleasant comments based on them being billionaires, but most lack much sympathy due to the shear stupidity of them doing it in the first place, regardless of how much it costs, so the ‘well folks spend lots of cash on bikes’ argument is irrelevant. The levels of risk are not the same.
it would cost me f all to jump into a lake full of hungry crocodiles for the thrills, but when I get ripped apart limb from limb I’m not sure I could expect much sympathy either.
Man, that’s grim reading
whilst it doesn’t give you much confidence in the product, the CEO was on the sub also (and apparently has been on every trip it’s made to date) and must have been aware of this. So he’s either a reckless idiot, or been very confident it was safe
the CEO was on the sub also (and apparently has been on every trip it’s made to date) and must have been aware of this
Does slightly remind me of this though:
Perhaps the CEO was aware that his role required him to fluff the confidence of high-rolling clients by being seen to personally trust the product?
sounds like progress but still Not sounding great.
On one hand they have detected rhythmic banging at depth at 30 min intervals in the area it went missing.
On the other hand .... What are they going to do about it. :/
Contact lost 1h45m into a 2h descent. I can't imagine the frustration if it's something simple like they descended a bit quicker and either came to rest on the seabed, or hit hard and are stuck in the seabed, and it's simply a case that they can't dislodge the costruction pole ballast as it won't tilt when they move their weight side to side.
From the article @martinhutch linked to,
Lochridge was particularly concerned about “non-destructive testing performed on the hull of the Titan” but he was “repeatedly told that no scan of the hull or Bond Line could be done to check for delaminations, porosity and voids of sufficient adhesion of the glue being used due to the thickness of the hull.” He was also told there was no such equipment that could conduct a test like that.
Interesting, given the other article linked on the thread has the hull manufacturer quoting <1% porosity levels. Perhaps whoever is quoted here meant Oceangate themselves didn't have the test equipment and the manufacturer had already tested it.
they can’t dislodge the costruction pole ballast as it won’t tilt when they move their weight side to side.
That sounds so shonky.
<p>On one hand they have detected rhythmic banging at depth at 30 min intervals in the area it went missing.</p>
Oh god, that's even worse. 🙁
This point about being bolted into the sub - any reason why the inner nuts holding the hatch on couldn't be exposed so they could carry a socket wrench for emergency? I'm guessing it's because water can force past the threads at that depth, though that seems incredible, if the hatch can seal at the right bolt torque.
Seems crazy that there's a possibility of drifting on the surface undetected and suffocating with fresh air on the other side of the hatch.
'construction pole ballast'
Honestly, I'm expecting Robert Llewellyn to appear at the shoulder of the Oceangate team and ask them how their build is going.
The ballast thing doesn't concern me. Ballast is ballast, no need for it to be fancy. Being able to jettison it (or be able to send up an emergency beacon, or be able to open the hatch, etc) would concern me a bit more
This point about being bolted into the sub – any reason why the inner nuts holding the hatch on couldn’t be exposed so they could carry a socket wrench for emergency? I’m guessing it’s because water can force past the threads at that depth, though that seems incredible, if the hatch can seal at the right bolt torque.
Seems crazy that there’s a possibility of drifting on the surface undetected and suffocating with fresh air on the other side of the hatch.
It requires significantly more engineering to have a pressure vessel with a penetration than it does to have an essentially sealed cylinder. All penetrations are weakness and thus cost and risk.
You would have thought that it would have external dye cartridges, strobes and a beacon (maybe it does) to make spotting it on the surface easier. But the could have at least painted it bright yellow and covered it in reflective materials.
This is why pre WW2 US Navy aircraft are painted yellow.
Get the impression that a lot more is know than is being said, which IMO is actually a good thing.
No explosion has been detected (by stating that it infers there is capability to hear if it had), also sounds like a UK military sub is helping out too.
Still no talk of what piece of equipment has the capability to get down to them, attach a line an pull up a sub given the depths.
By the sound of it the people on board are quite pragmatic people. You would think if you were trapped attached to some wreckage with no hope of release you would realise that there is no point banging, so that makes me think they are either free on the bottom, or some up to the surface... that narrows it down a bit !
You would have thought that it would have external dye cartridges, strobes and a beacon (maybe it does) to make spotting it on the surface easier.
In a normal world, yes you would. But all these things would be crushed long before the vessel was half way down.
Plus, how would you trigger them without creating any holes through the pressure vessel?
All penetrations are weakness and thus cost and risk.
I've just bought some electrical hull penetrators at work. They rated to a depth much less than than 4000m and each one cost as much as a half decent house. The mating connectors are over £12k each.
This thing sounds like it was designed and built on a shoe string which given what they are charging per passenger doesn't make much sense.
No explosion has been detected (by stating that it infers there is capability to hear if it had), also sounds like a UK military sub is helping out too.
Subs don't explode, they implode, and only under catastrophic failure conditions. If it just fills up with water then it's a quiet game over. I wondered if they used solely electronic means of releasing the weights (running anything through the hull may be impossible), but it would be common sense that in the event of any major failure they'd be spring-loaded to drop as opposed to being locked in place.
Eg. The mount for the weight is electronically held closed with a small lithium-ion battery, which has a maximum operating time of 90 hours and activation by RF from inside the sub. In the event that the radio receiver or transmitter fails, or the crew are incapacitated, the batteries will die and release the weights automatically before the breathable air inside the sub runs out.
I would have thought that anyone with vague experience of working with carbon fibre would be running a mile from the concept of making a sub from the stuff. Although carbon fibre is exceptionally strong it's vulnerable to damage, and the key thing is that it doesn't show signs of impact afterward even if the layers are delaminating below the surface.
On the bright side I knew my exhaustive knowledge of Clive Cussler novels would come in useful one day.
It requires significantly more engineering to have a pressure vessel with a penetration than it does to have an essentially sealed cylinder. All penetrations are weakness and thus cost and risk.
Sure, I just didn't think having an accessible hatch release of some kind (accessible bolt heads or something more complex, idk) would be a stretch given the general engineering levels going on.
I assume the need for it was seen as minimal, a situation where you're on the surface at the limit of the air supply is highly unlikely. Yet now they may well be snagged or having problems releasing ballast, short on time and if they can release themselves they could pop up some time after that 40hr point.
The simple answer is probably that opening the hatch on the surface would sink it ... the 'hatch' entry is that dome on the front isn't it? But at least you might have a chance of getting out and swimming for a bit.
Subs don’t explode, they implode.
Yeah sorry that was all covered above, its before 9am, but they still have been saying an implosion has not been heard.
Plus, how would you trigger them without creating any holes through the pressure vessel?
An earlier sub design had salt corrosion activated ballast release so whatever happened it would float up after a time. That kind of fail-proof release idea seems sensible. No idea what it could send up that would be of use for rescue and anything released would drift.
By the sound of it the people on board are quite pragmatic people. You would think if you were trapped attached to some wreckage with no hope of release you would realise that there is no point banging,
I think pragmatism would turn to desperation and trying anything when you realise you only have just over 40hrs to live. You'd bang on the sides just in case.
Plus, how would you trigger them without creating any holes through the pressure vessel?
Electro magnetic clamps, blue-tooth, differential pressure switches programmed to release from outside the hull once it gets back to 1bar after achieving a maximum or another button on the control panel. You don't need to drill holes. I bet that a military sub could launch a distress beacon without having to open any hatches.
Mercury space capsules had these back in the 1960's and they worked. Admittedly they weren't exposed to high pressure, but they still had a fairly rough ride and that was 60+ years ago.
Sure, I just didn’t think having an accessible hatch release of some kind (accessible bolt heads or something more complex, idk) would be a stretch given the general engineering levels going on.
Weight and cost. Properly designed releasable hatches are complex and heavy. That means you need more buoyancy. Carbon reinforced plastic is usually used in an attempt to reduce wet weight meaning you need less buoyance and can keep things smaller. All this is a cost reduction exercise.
I bet that a military sub could launch a distress beacon without having to open any hatches.
You'd lose that bet. They go out the submerged signal ejector and won't work at anywhere near that depth.
An earlier sub design had salt corrosion activated ballast release so whatever happened it would float up after a time. That kind of fail-proof release idea seems sensible. No idea what it could send up that would be of use for rescue and anything released would drift.
That's a neat idea. You'd think that they'd have bought some of the locator beacons used on aircraft flight data recorders and bolted them to the outside of the sub for such an eventuality. I imagine they would probably work from inside the sub if mechanically attached to a metal component.
I’ve just bought some electrical hull penetrators at work. They rated to a depth much less than than 4000m and each one cost as much as a half decent house. The mating connectors are over £12k each.
I'm guessing navy sub hull penetrators aren't any cheaper... And those subs only go to 300, maybe 500m.
So there's my answer on why they're sealed in. (edit, as @jonm81 says, weight and cost)
Electro magnetic clamps, blue-tooth, differential pressure switches programmed to release from outside the hull
Yes but these need power that would have to come from an external battery that would, again, be crushed well before it reaches the target depth.
I bet that a military sub could launch a distress beacon without having to open any hatches.
I'm sure it could..... But they only go down to about 300m!
Mercury space capsules had these back in the 1960’s and they worked.
Yes but that was in a vacuum - which is pretty simple - not at pressures that are constantly trying to make something ⅒ of its original size!
You’d think that they’d have bought some of the locator beacons used on aircraft flight data recorders and bolted them to the outside of the sub for such an eventuality.
Again...... Crushed!!
People really need to understand the pressures involved here 🤷🏻♂️
By the sound of it the people on board are quite pragmatic people.
One sealed cylinder. 5 people. Several days. Not much oxygen.
Won't someone think of the poo...
Its a really sh*tty situation however you look at it.
Again…… Crushed!!
People really need to understand the pressures involved here 🤷🏻♂️
ULB's fitted to aircraft are rated to 6000m....
This thing is equipped with external lights and thrusters that must have their own internal power supply as there are no holes in the hull, so they must have some sort of remote control over them from inside.
Could they have something similar that detaches and flashes?
What is the pressure rating on an aircraft flight data recorder?
You would have thought that it would have external dye cartridges, strobes and a beacon (maybe it does)
Nope. It's been lost before - for 5 hours, and they discussed putting a beacon on it, and decided not to, so it doesn't have any of that stuff.