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Surely when you stomp on a Pringles container, the pressure inside vastly exceeds the pressure outside. That is not what happened here.
It might be that the window was only designed to hold massive inward pressure, not massive outward pressure. If the carbon collapsed, the inrushing water would have had a lot of momentum which would put a lot of outward pressure on the window mountings for a very short period of time. it could have blown out then.
The carbon hull is obviously completely mangled too, my money is on it collapsing
Re the window popping out. In my armchair opinion I am not convinced.
It looks like the titanium ends cleanly separated from the carbon fibre tub, so it looks like they were blown off the ends, or at least cleanly separated rather than bits of carbon fibre still glued in place.
So would there be enough force to blow out the window and separate the titanium ends. You would imagine one of those would take more force than the other so one would still be intact or show elements of fatigue separation rather than clean separation. Or did they just use cheap super glue to join it all together?
I know there are people on here who might actually know what they are talking about who will come along and know how the physics of the implosion would work
This vid is quite interesting to show the type of people who were attracted to the Titanic, and I think shows part of the culture of the Titanic community. It reminded me some what of a community of people involved with Donald Campbell and Lake Coniston. They were all a bit make it up as they went along, fallings out with each other, no agreements on the right way to do things, but an unreserved view that they were doing the right thing and had every right to do what they were doing.
In this vid the guy even collects surface ocean water to give to fellow Titanic enthusiasts. 🤷♂️
If you want a bit more insight into the whole thing (and let's face it who doesn't) then a chap from CBS went for a dive with them in summer 2022, and has now written a fascinating story about the whole affair.
what i dont get is this was at 9 bar, your looking like 400 where this occurred......
I can't imagine that they would knock the window out to make it easier to get a sling through it. It is evidence.
gobuchul
I would disagree in the case of the DNV GL stuff and their like, for high pressure systems, which this basically was.
Yep and DNV are the real deal... and totally appropriate to certain situations.
My point was around relying on certifications without knowing or understanding what goes into them (or limitations)
The other issue I see is applying a culture of safety outside of where it is appropriate.
Do I want a Seaking and pilot certified... onto a certified rig absolutely.
Should scheduled flights or ABTA level tour operators charters .. absolutely
but this gets ridiculous when this degree of rigour and control is applied to everyday things or adventure things by people obsessed by safety
Had I known someone rich enough to go on the Titan I'd have told them my opinion... ultimately being "I know very little about it I suggest you pay an independent expert" .. but ultimately as an adult they are and should be free to decide.
If the carbon collapsed, the inrushing water would have had a lot of momentum which would put a lot of outward pressure on the window mountings for a very short period of time. it could have blown out then.
Cheers - I had not considered this (for the record I am not an engineer 😀) and was only picturing what might happen in my head, and couldn’t see how there would be forces pushing the window outwards. However, I had a quick look on YouTube for high pressure implosions - and this is indeed what appears to happen in one of the experiments. [not like a Pringles tube though afaics].
Winston
The issue here is if the problem (assuming you believe there is a problem) is moved elsewhere ...
Obviously but we are not talking about water taxis in Bangladesh are we. Ocean gate is a US based company and was operating out of Canada. Clearly the point we are all making is that Stockton Rush would have needed more certification had he been sailing those paying guests in a 40ft yacht across the Atlantic rather than diving to the bottom of it which is crazy.
You don't need ANY certification to take a 40' yacht with a few fare paying passengers across the Atlantic if you set off from Liberia and land in the Cayman Islands for example.
I'm sure there is some paper work at both sides that can be bypassed by paying off officials and probably a few bribes if they cross national waters.
what I don't get is this was at 9 bar, your looking like 400 where this occurred……
That's the opposite reaction, that was rapid decompression.
There is talk of human remains being found. This is against what plenty of internet "commentators" stated was possible. Apparently the amount of energy released when it went from 1 bat to 400 bar in a millisecond would of destroyed anything inside.
I was surprised at how big the bits of debris were, I was expecting it to have basically disintegrated (aside from the metal end caps etc). There seems to be recognisable parts left, including control structures and the like.
My guess would be that the larger debris is from the outside of the pressure hull, skid rails, covers, thrusters etc.
It turns out NASA did do some work on submarine designs of this type back in the 90's. The reports are in the public domain. They tested to distruction a smaller design but simular to the Oceangate sub, the failure mode was a fibre buckeling on the inner surface of the centre of the CF tube. Given the images of the recovered parts it's not unreasionable to assume the same failure has happened here. Both Ti end rings were recovered without obvious damage, the largest single part should be the CF tube however all they unloaded from the ship was a 'bag' which I assume contains the recovered fragments of the carbon pressure tube.
I also found it interesting that the NASA study observed that there was more noise on the initial pressure cycle than later cycles. This suggestes that the 'real time acoustic monitoring' was probably ineffective at detecting fatigue damage. In my day job I distructively test fibre ropes and I see the same, samples make a noise initially when loaded, then settle down, then only make a noise again moments before failure.
The window is mostly held in by external pressure, it would surprise me if it stayed in place during such a violent event, the fact that it's not in the recovered dome doesn't mean it was the cause.
One horible detail that occures to me is that during implosion the air will have gone from 1 bar to around 350 bar in a fraction of a second. That means a significant temperature increase. When today's news says they may have 'human remains' I doubt it's anything like a recognisable body.
There is talk of human remains being found. This is against what plenty of internet “commentators” stated was possible. Apparently the amount of energy released when it went from 1 bat to 400 bar in a millisecond would of destroyed anything inside.
They may both be correct. 'Remains' in this case may refer to a thin veneer of human mince...
There seems to be recognisable parts left, including control structures and the like.
One of the promo videos shows it without its outer white casing on. At the back outside of the pressure capsule there was quite a framework containing a whole bunch of gear. Looks like it is that which has come up in mostly one piece.
My guess would be that the larger debris is from the outside of the pressure hull, skid rails, covers, thrusters etc
Yes, the pressure hull will have collapsed and anything inside it pulverized, but the stuff outside it should be reasonably intact.
Thanks, that makes more sense now.
There is talk of human remains being found
Every report I’ve see says “assumed” human remains. So whatever is left after making people soup - bits of bone and teeth?
Apparently the amount of energy released when it went from 1 bat to 400 bar in a millisecond would of destroyed anything inside.
According to Scott Manley (his 'Live' YouTube video "Under Pressure" is well worth a watch) the energy within 1 cubic meter of air is the equivalent of about 2Kg of TNT. There was approximately 5cuM of air in the capsule so when that was rapidly compressed* it would have been like having 10Kg of TNT set off in that tiny space.... in his words "raspberry jam"!
* Think of it like a diesel engine - as the air in the cylinder gets compressed it heats up until it goes bang! This is the same but on a larger scale.
the “they have more money than me so they must be evil” attitude that is the essence of the STW forum is getting tiring, not least because everyone is very quiet about e-bikes costing £12k+, or the ongoing craze of coughing up £60k on a VW tin tent.
Very much this unfortunately.
the energy within 1 cubic meter of air is the equivalent of about 2Kg of TNT.
At 3000 meters, a one square meter area has 3000 tonnes of water above it. If you have a 1 meter cube, you're talking about a force of about 30 000 000 Newtons over one meter when it collapses, so that's 30 MJ. One gram of TNT is about 4 kJ, so that's about 7.5 kg of TNT per cubic meter at that depth, if my maths is correct. If I've made a mistake in the calculation, happy to be corrected
* Think of it like a diesel engine – as the air in the cylinder gets compressed it heats up until it goes bang! This is the same but on a larger scale.
diesel engines max cylinder pressures are around 200bar these poor souls experienced about 400bar
edit add - sorry i dont know how to quote properly.
edit edit, i think i fixed it
Human toothpaste, is the gruesome phrase that springs to mind with things like the Byfield Dolphin incident. 🙁
So with the forces being described its strange that they are saying human remains have been found.
If the tub had imploded that woukd imply you wouldnt find bits of human, so did the sub actually loose pressure near the surface and then sink to the bottom? But then that wouldnt give the noise of an implosion that was heard.
Bit ghoulish this. It’s only correct that investigators report evidence of human remains but not sure of the value of speculating what these are on the basis of the physicality of the event.
But ghoulish this. It’s only correct that investigators report evidence of human remains but not sure of the value of speculating what these are on the basis of the physicality of the event.
There is no real value of any discussion on here about any part of the event.
However, morbid curiosity is part of human nature, that's why there is so much stuff involving murder in the media, both fiction and non-fiction. I currently watching the Hannibal TV series on Netflix. Millions have also done so. If that's not morbid curiosity what is?
I'll be honest, I asked the question on here a few days ago about what would be left of the victims and knew it was a bit morbid. However, it's the curiosity of the forces and speed of the event, which for me, are beyond imagination.
One engineer on the internet thought that due to the heat generated by the immediate pressure increase would of incinerated the victims as well as crushing them. This would appear not to be the case.
There is no real value of any discussion on here about any part of the event.
However, morbid curiosity is part of human nature, that’s why there is so much stuff involving murder in the media, both fiction and non-fiction. I currently watching the Hannibal TV series on Netflix. Millions have also done so. If that’s not morbid curiosity what is?
Objectively I prefer the instantaneous to slow drowning or 101 other ways.
Slightly off topic perhaps but When the Dust Settles by Lucy Easthorpe is extremely interesting on the subject of recovering human remains after disasters.
She points to the Lac-Megantic rail disaster as being a best practice re recovery of remains. As that was in Canada its entirely possible that some of the same team are involved in any recovery of human remains - however small they may be.
however small they may be.
Good luck with that, 4000m down with a ROV manipulator.
every piece of wreckage brought up will likely be examined to see if microscopic bits of human tissue or fabrics have been forced into it by the force of the implosion, if any is found they will be separated out, identified via DNA and returned to the families. Thats if the Lac-Megantic principles are followed
One engineer on the internet thought that due to the heat generated by the immediate pressure increase would of incinerated the victims as well as crushing them. This would appear not to be the case.
I don't think the internet engineer is all wrong, the implosion will have heated the air in the sub. So for a fraction of a second the air in contact with (including in the lungs) the crew will have crazy hot - perhaps over 1000 deg C. This won't have lasted long though as the crushed hull, crew and water will have mixed and cooled in a few hundredths of a second. It'd be like being in contact with white hot metal for a fraction of a second, burns, but only on the surface.
As some other posters have pointed out the 'remains' are probably just some organic material found on the fragments that can be analysed.
The only thing that keeps coming back to me thinking about this is that a child went down there to please his dad and complete his Rubix cube at the bottom of the ocean to set a world record.
The only thing that keeps coming back to me thinking about this is that a child went down there
TBF he was 19 but the rest of your post still stands.
Really don't understand all this stuff about recovering remains. Fair enough investigating the wreckage and cause of the vessel failure, but scraping bits of fat off it and DNA testing it just seems a bit pointless. It's not like they need identifying is it?
TBH its closure for the families, they'll have something they can bury.
And obvs part of the thorough accident investigation.
scuttler
Full Member
Bit ghoulish this. It’s only correct that investigators report evidence of human remains but not sure of the value of speculating what these are on the basis of the physicality of the event.
I can't remember ever seeing the word "assumed" being used in front of "human remains" before, then take into account that they had the equivalent of the Eiffel Tower dropped on them. I feel for anyone that is of the thinking that there might be some 'normal' remains being brought to shore
TBH its closure for the families
I doubt a few grams of organic material will provide that. Maybe they should ask them (maybe they have already)? I know what my response would be.
Respect for the dead and for the material scientists who are going to be analysing the mechanical remains of the wreck.
TBH how many sub implosions have actually occurred ,wasn't the Byford Dolphin the worst ever diving accident(and not an implosion thou)
TBH I'd have thought the Kursk probably was (350 feet deep) but again not an implosion.
<p style="text-align: left;">I've said to friend that with such a sudden event, they are basically gonna have been instantly turned to fish chum.</p>
Think of it like a diesel engine – as the air in the cylinder gets compressed it heats up until it goes bang! This is the same but on a larger scale.
Not quite: the air in the cylinder is heated up until the vapourised fuel goes bang.
In the case of the sub the air would very briefly get very hot as it is swiftly heated by compression but would not itself then be able to go bang in the way a diesel engine does.
In similar situations oxygen very rapidly compressed to over 400 bar would realistically get to temperatures of 500C-1000C although the theoretical temperature of compression is several times higher.
In the case of the sub anything flammable could start to ignite in hot high pressure air, but would of course be quenched milliseconds later by the rapid inrush of cold water.
TBH how many sub implosions have actually occurred
There has been quite a few over the years, however, I think all military which implode at much shallower depths.
I don't think there have been any losses of the ultra deep submersibles?
TBH how many sub implosions have actually occurred
USS Thresher would have imploded (it suffered a reactor shutdown and sank). Any ship or submarine that sinks in deep water with intact sealed compartments will implode.
I came across quoting James Cameron:
"We understand from inside the community that they had dropped their ascent weights and they were coming up, trying to manage an emergency..."
I don't know how that conclusion was reached given that communication had been lost.
Yeah that's a very vague comment. The only thing I can think of is that those weights aren't with the rest of the wreckage, and "the community" involves those doing the salvage. Strikes me as a right shit stirring comment though that removes the "at least they never knew a thing about it" theory
Dropped weights some way from sub debris?
There's been no deaths on commercial submersibles for 60 years until now... also according to Cameron I guess that doesn't include military, I don't know about research.
Cameron has access to _the_ best experts in the field, and probably knows those involved in the recovery so I'm inclined to give weight to any statement he makes.
“We understand from inside the community that they had dropped their ascent weights and they were coming up, trying to manage an emergency…”
I don’t know how that conclusion was reached given that communication had been lost.
There was tracking and comms.
If they had lost comms but the mother ship was still tracking them, then they would of known they were ascending.
Although Cameron did initially say that he was told that tracking and comms was simultaneously?
I don’t know how that conclusion was reached given that communication had been lost.
because they would have had positioning and comms up to the point it was lost.
Not quite: the air in the cylinder is heated up until the vapourised fuel goes bang.
Of course.... good point - Soz!
Strikes me as a right shit stirring comment though
Yes - it is.
Although Cameron did initially say that he was told that tracking and comms was simultaneously?
He did.
because they would have had positioning and comms up to the point it was lost.
If they had positioning then why the large search area?
I don't believe they were "managing an emergency" - surely if something goes wrong at that depth it's an instantaneous conclusion. You can't have "a bit of a leak".
I would much rather think that they knew nothing about it TBH.
The only thing I can think of is that those weights aren’t with the rest of the wreckage
Many things do not drop straight down in water and can land some distance from where they started falling.
If they had positioning then why the large search area?
because despite all the evidence pointing to a subsea implosion at the last known position, until they got a asset on site capable of getting down to the seabed and providing visual confirmation, they were working on the possibility there were lives to save.
Another compare and contrast.
TBH how many sub implosions have actually occurred
A fair few if you start looking from Thresher though as a by-product of something else occurring rather than imploding due to deliberately going deep and failing. I'd imagine there were also implosion during war time when subs were damaged enough to start going down uncontrollably.
Whilst is does look a bit like shit stirring I suspect that as he knew one of the passengers for 25 years, in reality he is just angry that something happened that didn’t need to. Cameron is obviously passionate about deep submersible work and is probably beating himself up that he didn’t do more to stop this bunch of cowboys. It’s a very small community and clearly this tragedy could have been avoided if more in that community had made a fuss - however like the CEO Stockton, there was probably a bit of them that was optimistic. Now the whole community is reeling.
I think everyone should read this article, it gives much more background information from people who were directly involved with the project.
It’s mental they weren’t stopped/banned from diving given the concerns raised. You’d have thought it would be a very strict/rigorous regs in deep sea exploration?
Well, I’ve just finished reading through that article, and frankly it’s heartbreaking. The whole idea was seriously flawed, Stockton Rush was warned that it was dangerous, and that people would likely die, and his answer was to threaten with legal and financial consequences.
It’s mental they weren’t stopped/banned from diving given the concerns raised. You’d have thought it would be a very strict/rigorous regs in deep sea exploration?
That’s the thing, reading through that article it shows Rush was so obsessed with the project that he built in workarounds, like having everything legally operating from the Bahamas, outside of US law, and nobody was a ‘passenger’.
Thanks, excellent article, very sad and so avoidable.
WTF?
OceanGate’s lawyer wrote, “The parties found themselves at an impasse—Mr. Lochridge was not, and specifically stated that he could not be made comfortable with OceanGate’s testing protocol, while Mr. Rush was unwilling to change the company’s plans.” The meeting ended in Lochridge’s firing.
Soon afterward, Rush asked OceanGate’s director of finance and administration whether she’d like to take over as chief submersible pilot. “It freaked me out that he would want me to be head pilot, since my background is in accounting,” she told me. She added that several of the engineers were in their late teens and early twenties, and were at one point being paid fifteen dollars an hour. Without Lochridge around, “I could not work for Stockton,” she said. “I did not trust him.” As soon as she was able to line up a new job, she quit.
Excellent article with insight from some real authorities. Lawyers mentioned way too many times. And I guess there’s another round for them.
They may both be correct. ‘Remains’ in this case may refer to a thin veneer of human mince…
There was a case where someone went through a large gas turbine engine on static test (a suicide IIRC) and the "human remains" would have fitted in an icecream tub.
"“With titanium, there’s a purpose to a pressure test that goes beyond just seeing whether it will survive,” John Ramsay, the designer of the Limiting Factor, explained. The metal gradually strengthens under repeated exposure to incredible stresses. With carbon fibre, however, pressure testing slowly breaks the hull, fibre by tiny fibre. “If you’re repeatedly nearing the threshold of the material, then there’s just no way of knowing how many cycles it will survive,” he said."
Wanders out to look at three bikes in the garage with carbon forks and bars.......starts looking online for titanium replacements...
Excellent article with insight from some real authorities. Lawyers mentioned way too many times. And I guess there’s another round for them.
Exactly, that’s why I posted it up, it’s the first thing that I’ve read that seems to have real authority and authenticity to the content, the comments and quotes from people actually involved in what was going on behind the scenes need to be heard far more widely, I feel.
Certainly Stockton doesn’t come across as anything other than a narcissistic and selfish bully.
- Certainly Stockton doesn’t come across as anything other than a narcissistic and selfish bully.
Musk of the sea ?
It’s mental they weren’t stopped/banned from diving given the concerns raised. You’d have thought it would be a very strict/rigorous regs in deep sea exploration?
Why, its in international waters BUT really who has a right to tell anyone what they can and can't do "because it's dangerous".
People really need to learn to keep their noses out of telling other people what they can and can't do based on what they decide.
You really are a silly person who hasn't understood a single intelligent post on this thread aren't you.
“We understand from inside the community that they had dropped their ascent weights and they were coming up, trying to manage an emergency…”
I took it to mean that the sub had communicated with the mothership and was ascending - presumably because they'd heard concerning noises / had concerning readouts from their sensors. Then some time after that, comms, tracking etc was lost.
I imagine everyone from OceanGate is keeping their lips tightly shut, now that it's clear the sub suffered a catastrophe. But at the time but it's certainly plausible that Cameron heard on the grapevine things which have still not been officially released by OceanGate, such as the fact the sub was ascending urgently.
You really are a silly person who hasn’t understood a single intelligent post on this thread aren’t you.
It's a reasonable position that people should be free to pursue unwise things, even if you disagree completely it. So I'm not sure the ad hominems are necessary. Unless SteveXTC is just being contrary to troll you - in which case he played you beautifully.
Yeah course he has, yeah totally played me - just Like Stockton played the Dawoods.
I've actually moved my position on this. Earlier on in the thread (much earlier on) I suggested that overall everybody could make their own decisions but that I was angry the kid had been dragged into it. Now the more people like stevextc ramble on about individual choice without having any skin in the game or literally any idea about anything it shows clearly to me that there should be even more protection, even for billionaires who should know better - basically to shield them from the clearly ever increasing march of the self assured well funded idiot.
who has a right to tell anyone what they can and can’t do “because it’s dangerous”.
Society assumes such a right in some circumstances. Not much point in arguing with it, you are unlikely to persuade it to give up.
1) Stockton Whatsisface is a narcissistic lunatic who pursued an unwise and deeply irresponsible programme of exploration against all advice, and persuaded / lured / tricked people into taking trips with him.
2) People should be free to do / explore what they want (in international waters) without being beholden to some hypothetical world police force.
It's possible to hold those two views simultaneously, which I think is SteveXTC's position. I'm not saying I agree with it - just that it's a reasonable position to hold - depending on one's position on the auth / lib spectrum. So no need for name-calling.
2) People should be free to do / explore what they want (in international waters) without being beholden to some hypothetical world police force.
Informed and authoritative people (aka whistle blowers) were shut down by lawyers representing someone with cash / clout. Where does that feature in the ‘world police force’ belief system?
I thought it odd that the expert/guide would put his name to this.
Then that article references his late wife & comments that “I’ve had a good life/ what a place to go out/ it’ll be quick”
it’s almost like he had a death wish, and Rush used his name/ experience to persuade the passengers, sorry “mission specialists”, it’s all ok.
To me he bears some level of responsibility by adding a veneer of acceptability to the charade.
It smacks of the dodgy “flight share” operation Wingly where people circumnavigate commercial flight regulations and the circumstances of the footballer that was murdered in the channel.
without being beholden to some hypothetical world police force.
One of the issues with this position is that those involved will certainly not turn down the involvement of the "world police/rescue force" should the need for search and rescue occur, indeed they will probably expect it.
The international search, and now attempted recovery operation for Titan, will have cost many millions. No one seriously believes that OceanGate will be paying the costs.
Nor had the 5 individuals been successfully rescued that they would have dug into their pockets and paid for their own rescue.
It is not simply about their rights as individuals.
But that does not resolve the larger issue of whether wealthy travelers or companies should bear responsibility to the public and governments for exposing themselves to such risk.
Why are you lot still trying to play chess with a pigeon?
But that does not resolve the larger issue of whether wealthy travelers or companies should bear responsibility to the public and governments for exposing themselves to such risk.
Agree, but is that fundamentally a different argument when it comes to polar expeditions, yachting on open oceans, high mountaineering, or the more dangerous aspects of, say, mountain biking? The scale of cost is perhaps different but the argument is the same?
I’m not arguing in favour of SteveXTC’s position by the way - I’m arguing that he’s allowed to hold that view without being called names.
There's parallels here too with public health/'nanny state' stuff on things like smoking, junk food, gambling etc. Adults should be allowed to make decisions that other people don't think are a good idea, but it's not a fully informed decision if you've got a massive company with a huge marketing budget pushing you one way and no one arguing the opposite.
You really are a silly person who hasn’t understood a single intelligent post on this thread aren’t you.
I’m not sure the ad hominems are necessary.
Maybe not necessary but in this case quite entertaining imo, reminded me of the taunting french soldier in Monty Python's Holy Grail.
"Go and boil your bottom, sons of a silly person."
I was also hoping for "I don't wanna talk to you no more, you empty headed animal food trough wiper".
The behind the Bastards podcast have been going over Stockton and what they've christened his 'Death sub' it's quite an entertaining way to hear about the whole debacle.
The guy was an utter cowboy, it was always going to end this way, Billionaire adventurers are kinda dickheads too (IMO), would the world scramble all those resources for some asylum seekers in dinghys?
That article Count posted earlier. Shit.
So many red flags along the way but the "disruptor" needs to disrupt even managing to fool himself that he has pulled wool over the eyes of physics itself.
As I'm sure its been alluded to, there are so many lessons to be learnt here in totally different areas in life. When people are demanding to get rid of red tape for a start. Like it's always an inherently good goal. Best to check why that tape was put they're in the first place!
I'm really hoping they got no warning signs the sub was in trouble before they were instantly killed... but it sound like they were even denied that tiny mercy that if the ballast was dumped.
I just can't get over thinking about the dad and his son in those minutes or seconds... I really hope there was no warning. I suspect we'll never know.