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I wonder what has happened to it? They say they lost contact with it 1hr 45 mins into a dive. No idea how deep it was when that happened but whatever occurred it must be terrifying for the occupants.
The Oceangate website says the sub has RTM that constantly monitors the hull integrity giving the pilot enough warning to terminate the dive and return to the surface in the event of any issue with the pressure boundary. Assuming this didn't fail, and therefore something that gave no warning happened, the prognosis doesn't look good.
Is there any rescue capability that can recover a ten ton sub from the depth of Titanic? There was a line on the BBC where they stated they hope it hasn't descended to the ocean floor, which I wonder is a slight nod that they wouldn't be able to recover it.
No I don’t suppose there is - it’s unlikely that any Navy rescue vehicles would be able to dock with it. Plus it’s bolted shut from the outside.
I've been reading about this the last couple of days. Seems like a REALLY janky operation. The sub is made from non-certified materials (although they have a number of previous succesful dives) and controlled with an XBOX controller. There is only one entrance/exit which is a cover that is bolted on from the outside. It has oxygen reserves to supply 5 people for 96 hours. I believe it lost contact with the surface boat on Sunday so they're already well into using up those reserves. Talk over on Reddit is most rescue operations are only effective down to ~1500m and this thing could be close to 4000m down. The thing is, even if they've aborted the dive and are bobbing around lost on the surface, they can't get out because the only exit is sealed from the outside.
This whole thing is legitmate nightmare fuel for me.
£250k per person sounds like a lot but I'd guess the logistics behind it are pricey. If I were a businessman who was savvy enough to make a lot of money. I think I'd have a team looking at the cost and support in great detail.
If something goes wrong at depth it's not going to be a fun time.
but whatever occurred it must be terrifying for the occupants.
It looks really really bleak. Probable best case is that the occupants didn't have time to be terrified?
I almost can't bear to think about it 😰
Is it just me or did my post disappear? (about whether rescue capabilities exist). I thought perhaps I didn't hit post, but your reply seems to be in response to me!
I saw this on the news this morning - floating coffin did spring to mind, although at this stage more likely a sinking coffin. I was not assured by the bit where they explained it is controlled with x-box controllers (but they did have one spare so you know)
Their rescue plan seems to be shouting for help. Not great when you are in the middle of an ocean
@spooky_b329 - yes I replied to you and your post has indeed disappeared…
As someone who deals with pressure vessels and hydraulic systems on a daily basis - the hydrostatic pressure at 4000m is ~400bar. That is a huge amount of pressure - I have a liquid CO2 tank, substantial great big steel thing, its rated at 25bar. I can't imagine having to design and build something for >400bar and to then stick humans inside it.
And as for paying someone to have a go in it 4km under water - no ****ing chance!
Games controllers are actually pretty well designed bits of kit for controlling a machine that can move in a couple of axes. They're used in other non-games applications too so that bit isn't so surprising.
The concern above about their being only one exit also isn't surprising - if you're building a pressure hull to withstand 4km+ of ocean depth then you don't want many holes in it.
The fact that the hatch is bolted closed from the outside is a little surprising. Once you get past the first 10m or so the external pressure will hold the hatch shut pretty effectively so it doesn't need to be clamped down hard, just enough so that you're sure it's got a positive seal.
AFAICS there are three scenarios - it's on the surface but undetected, it had a catastrophic failure at depth or it's on the seabed. Sadly only one of those has a good outcome, and if it's lost on the seabed and not snagged on the wreck then it may never be found.
Don't know how many times it needs to be said really; civilians have no place in either submarines or helicopters.
Don’t know how many times it needs to be said really; civilians have no place in either submarines or helicopters.
One thing is for sure, money can also buy you a unique and memorable death.
Went on a proper submarine once, when in dock. I couldn't wait to get off the entire time. Hard pass from me.
Do hope they're found well considering the circumstances, or at least found so families can have some closure.
Don’t know how many times it needs to be said really; civilians have no place in either submarines or helicopters.
Randomly I ended up down a YouTube and Google rabbit hole of Robinson helicopter tailrotor strike crashes recently. It's bit of a problem when you suddenly chop the tail rotor off!
Seems like a REALLY janky operation. The sub is made from non-certified materials (although they have a number of previous succesful dives) and controlled with an XBOX controller
US military submarines use Xbox controllers, so not that janky.
Going deep sea is harder than going to the moon apparently ?
Wouldnt get me going down there, pitch black, no real way to see out, all to look at a rusty ship. Its just like paying to go to the top of Everest or flying in to space. You have zero control of whether you will succeed or fail
US military submarines use Xbox controllers, so not that janky.
Bet the batteries have run out.
civilians have no place in … helicopters.
Mountain Rescue thank you for your input 😂
Mountain Rescue thank you for your input 😂
The walk will do them good. 😉😂
There is zero chance of any rescue if they are on the bottom.
The only possibility I could think of would be a deep water ROV connecting a specialist deep sea winch, however, by the time that equipment was on site it would be way too late. That's if they can even find the sub.
If it was a sudden catastrophic failure they wouldn't of known anything about it.
US Navy subs use XBox controllers to perform the non-critical task of operating the cameras that have taken over from periscopes, not the critical task of piloting the submarine.
I'd still say using a $30 Logitech Xbox controller to pilot your "please sign this waiver because our environmental vessel has not been approved by any regulatory body" submarine is janky.
The only possibility I could think of would be a deep water ROV connecting a specialist deep sea winch, however, by the time that equipment was on site it would be way too late.
I am surprised that there isnt an emergency balloon that deploys and brings it back to the surface. Or is that the point that at that depth a balloon wouldnt inflate, or would just burst ?
It looks really really bleak. Probable best case is that the occupants didn’t have time to be terrified?
There is no point being terrified like they are in the movies (unless they are going to make it in to a movie) Just accept it the end...slowly, very slowly.
I assume as death goes its not too unpleasant, unless it starts to get cold before the oxygen runs out.
Ok i used to design pressure vessels. Ive done them at 1500bar with enough potential energy to take out Huddersfield. A bit of a struggle to fit someone inside unless they were in bits though......Anyhow its obviously and entirely possible, although it was definitely squeaky bum time on gas test.
You cant make something like that out of non certified materials. It just doesn't happen. The fact its pulled together from off the shelf bits isnt a concern either.
Interesting that they have no comms with it!
TheFlyingOx
Full Member
The sub is made from non-certified materials (although they have a number of previous succesful dives) and controlled with an XBOX controller.
Some kid in Florida is currently wondering why his GTA character is constantly spamming jump even though he's not touching the controller.
I am surprised that there isnt an emergency balloon that deploys and brings it back to the surface. Or is that the point that at that depth a balloon wouldnt inflate, or would just burst ?
The quantity of gas required would be massive and would have to be at more pressure than the ambient at depth, >400 bar.
Back in the day, the 1st generation deep water subs, without propulsion, used iron for ballast and petrol for buoyancy. Once they got to depth, they released their ballast and floated back to the surface.
You cant make something like that out of non certified materials.
Why cant you though? I assume they did un-manned missions first before they sent the tin can down full of people, and I assume they did all the fatigue testing? Or is that the point of this, that they have managed to make this commercial as they have dodged all the expensive R&D ?
Ah just read that its a composite hull.
Yea no thanks, wont get me near that. My bet is its collapsed. you get strange things like slipping layers if you like with stuff like that so its a no from me.
I too have been reading about it and agree with some of the above, the way the press are treating it (following a CBS? show last year) is that its all a bit Heath Robinson. Which is fine when you're building a gazebo in your garden. Less so when you're charging $250k a pop to take customers 4km to the bottom of the sea.
Outcome looks pretty bleak...
used to build ROV's
part of my job was testing the pressure housings, think the most we were working to at the time was 120 bar
we had a bad batch of carbon fibre housings made. these things were about 500mm diameter.. 700mm long perhaps, want to say approx 12mm wall. I literally got PTSD from testing these things ,creeping up to max pressure and bang, implosion.. the test vessel rig would jump off the ground and i'd have to go for a long walk and a smoke, before testing the next one.
We'd been making ROV's for a long time before i started.. there's no way I'd entertain getting inside a 1 off design like that
hope for the best for people on board
Well it either sounds like a system failure which would mean a fair amount of time for contemplation, or instant squish and you wouldnt be aware of anything
If it imploded surely that kind of explosion would be picked up on sonar or something, or at that depth would the explosion not travel far enough to the surface?
Compare and contrast:
****stani business man pays $250 000 each for him and his son to end up in this situation.
100? ****stani migrants paid $5000 each to end up on a sinking ship off the coast of Greece.
Not sure what to even think about either - other than the world is f'd up - the contrast struck me though
The whole set up seems a bit sketchy.
Their ship is a 60 year old coastguard buoy tender.
Apparently the sub does have an emergency drop weight which should of brought it back to the surface if they lose power.
So it would seem that it's either bobbing around on the surface or it's been crushed.
Went on a proper submarine once, when in dock. I couldn’t wait to get off the entire time. Hard pass from me.
I get a bit antsy if the train doors don't open promptly (especially if the train is very busy) so I can't imagine what it must feel like being stuck in a tube underwater.
obviously dumb question, but would/could it not have been connected by a rope to the ship?
Ok i used to design pressure vessels. Ive done them at 1500bar with enough potential energy to take out Huddersfield
There's an unanswered question there.
Can't see this ending happily, you'd think it'd have some kind of transponder but i guess not.
Compare and contrast:
****stani business man pays $250 000 each for him and his son to end up in this situation.
100? ****stani migrants paid $5000 each to end up on a sinking ship off the coast of Greece.
Not sure what to even think about either – other than the world is f’d up – the contrast struck me though
And one seems to get far more coverage than the other...
A 4km tether would require a dedicated and specially equipped 'mother' ship.
From their site, this cost-saving is presented as a virtue:
Benefits of Our Crewed Submersibles:
Reduced cost of deployment and increased mission flexibility, each submersible can be containerized and shipped anywhere in the world by land, sea or air.
Zero tether management issues.
Ability to work off any ship of opportunity.
obviously dumb question, but would/could it not have been connected by a rope to the ship?
Really long ropes are difficult.
If you make them out of steel then all their strength is used to suspend their own weight.
So then you have to use dyneema/aramid and the cost is massive. Also, the winch to handle them is pretty complex.
Also, their surface ship wasn't dynamically positioned so it would be a non starter anyway.
If it imploded surely that kind of explosion would be picked up on sonar or something, or at that depth would the explosion not travel far enough to the surface?
The US have their sub detection network (SOSUS and various other names) which has a bunch of hydrophones etc spread through the oceans.
So guess there is a chance using that although its unclear, for good reasons, how capable it is and indeed how much remains post coldwar. There would then be the question whether they would want to admit to its capabilities.
Really long ropes are difficult.
If you make them out of steel then all their strength is used to suspend their own weight.
So then you have to use dyneema/aramid and the cost is massive. Also, the winch to handle them is pretty complex.
Also, their surface ship wasn’t dynamically positioned so it would be a non starter anyway.
Also shipwrecks tend to be messy environments with all sorts of opportunities to snag tethers & umbilicals - managing that when you can grab them and shift them round stuff is hard enough, doing it from inside a submersible is exponentially harder.
bolted shut from the outside.
😱
People describe working at those depths as like going into space, and I think I'd prefer the latter!
If they survive Ron Howard will start negotiating rights for the movie next week.
One thing is for sure, money can also buy you a unique and memorable death.
Hedonistic adaptation is a killer.
The more I read about what it's really like to be rich, the less I think I'd like it.
I worked on one of the submarine design and build programmes for a bit - maximum operating depth of 300m, with a level of engineering and complexity that is mind-boggling. Some of the ex-RN guys I worked with were technical advisors on the Kursk recovery. This thing is possibly at 3800m, over 1500km offshore with no tether or communications - it’s the proverbial needle in a haystack and even if they find it, there’s nothing available nearby to recover it. Local sea conditions are pretty rough - even on the surface it’s the last place you’d want to be pitching and rolling in a big tube 🤢
The more I read about what it’s really like to be rich, the less I think I’d like it.
Yep kind of get what you mean on this.
The bloke on TV this morning who went down in this sub bought it as a present for his wife. She only didnt go as she got COVID so he stepped in.
I wouldnt dream of buying this as a present for Mrs FD. If she wanted to really do it I would have a convo about it, but I wouldnt just buy it as a gift !
But then we all do stuff that could kill us any time.
Yes the bloke was on BBC Breakfast I'd recommend watching that bit (about 7:30?) he gives an insight into the waiver they had to sign mentioning death 3 times on the first of many pages. Some of the equipment failed like sonar they had trouble finding the Titanic wreck and were only saw it for about 20 minutes. I also read the controls are all touch screen / xbox something fails you can't just get the spanners out. His wife was the adventurous one he tags along so he can be with her!
I wouldnt dream of buying this as a present for Mrs FD. If she wanted to really do it I would have a convo about it, but I wouldnt just buy it as a gift !
I bought MrsRNP a tandem skydive as a wedding present! I stayed firmly on the ground😁
Local sea conditions are pretty rough – even on the surface it’s the last place you’d want to be pitching and rolling in a big tube
Good point. Generally speaking people are saying their only survival chance is if they are floating. But, if 5 of them are being tossed around inside in swell, is that even survivable?
The fact that the hatch is bolted closed from the outside is a little surprising. Once you get past the first 10m or so the external pressure will hold the hatch shut pretty effectively so it doesn’t need to be clamped down hard, just enough so that you’re sure it’s got a positive seal.
My first assumption would be the hatch forms part of the structure once it's bolted closed?
I am surprised that there isnt an emergency balloon that deploys and brings it back to the surface. Or is that the point that at that depth a balloon wouldnt inflate, or would just burst ?
When dealing with things below a 'sensible' depth you use diesel instead as it doesn't compress as much so you get a consistent buoyancy the whole way to the surface. i.e. 1m3 of diesel in a 1m3 balloon is ~2500N of buoyancy regardless of depth. On the surface that would be ~250l of air, 250 (standard conditions)l of air at 4km is about a pint.
Ok i used to design pressure vessels. Ive done them at 1500bar with enough potential energy to take out Huddersfield
WEC?
[edit, that's 1500psi not bar so not WEC]
is that even survivable?
I'm guessing you'd wish you were dead, at the very least.
Good point. Generally speaking people are saying their only survival chance is if they are floating. But, if 5 of them are being tossed around inside in swell, is that even survivable?
Probably not if they don't have seats and harnesses.
re the cable/tether issue
Our stuff used to go to a maximum of 1500M
we would have a TMS (Tether Management System) which was basically a big metal cage with a drum of umbilical cable inside. you'd lower the TMS to your work area, and the ROV would then leave the TMS as the local umbilical is wound out and in. Just 1500m of Umbilical for a 150kg ROV and its TMS was a massive weight of cable, i get why untethered makes a little sense for this.
a sub wait 4000m of cable behind it wouldn't be able to operate, it'd be pulled by the cable. it'd need its own TMS which would be enormous also i guess
The other thing is that they dress these trips up as research.
There is absolutely no need to send a manned sub to research the wreck.
It's all about the adventure.
Ok i used to design pressure vessels. Ive done them at 1500bar with enough potential energy to take out Huddersfield
😀 I used to do low pressure vessels in Bradford, and the chemical energy if it went wrong was enough to take out Bradford... Nothing went wrong while i was there.
Ah just read that its a composite hull.
I wonder what their sign off criteria for the quality of the composite is. Any tiny flaw is going to become a massive issue at 400bar. The sort of faults your average aerospace quality carbon manufacturer doesn't even look for are going to cause that thing to collapse like a coke can under a steam roller.
Going deep sea is harder than going to the moon apparently ?
Well, the upper and lower pressure limits are only 0 and 1 bar. So not that hard to make a pressure vessel to hold it all in/out. Also, most motion is based around moderately basic geometry. No pesky buoyancy/current/waves to worry about.
I also read the controls are all touch screen / xbox something fails you can’t just get the spanners out.
And if the coding is as janky as the rest of it, BSOD is not just words...
But, if 5 of them are being tossed around inside in swell, is that even survivable?
People sail and row across the Atlantic* in similar sized vessels so, yes it is/should be - it would be pretty unpleasant but survivable.
* The wavelength will be pretty big at that distance from shore which will be better - not like being in the Irish Sea with 6 footers coming at you every couple of seconds
People sail and row across the Atlantic* in similar sized vessels so, yes it is/should be – it would be pretty unpleasant but survivable.
But those are surface vessels with a keel and designed to bob about on the surface with a suitable CoG.
That sub looks like a tube that will be over the place.
But it looks so professionally fitted out on the inside...
You're basically expensively viewing a shipwreck via a camera, same as you would be if you stayed on the surface. Except with the significant risk of being squashed like an ant, or dying of hypothermia/hypoxia.
Wouldn't they have a GPS tracking system installed (with back-up!), so if it's on the surface it should be easy to find?
Ok i used to design pressure vessels. Ive done them at 1500bar with enough potential energy to take out Huddersfield.
Missed opportunity.... 😉
Find it hard to feel sorry for those with enough cash to spunk on some vanity trip such as this. Would feel the same if the space tourists perished.
Maybe they need to update and add another verse to this:
Is that running Windows 10? I'm going to go with a forced update to 11 which bricked the drivers for the controller.
Just imagine being stuck in that thing watching your son die...glad I'm poor!
Wouldn’t they have a GPS tracking system installed (with back-up!), so if it’s on the surface it should be easy to find?
Looking at that photo I guess that would of kept hull penetrations to a minimum?
So they would have to have a sealed unit on the outside with some automatic activation system. Engineering something like that for 400 bar would be quite tricky!
Find it hard to feel sorry for those with enough cash to spunk on some vanity trip such as this. Would feel the same if the space tourists perished.
That's very harsh. They are actual real living people with friends and families and stuff – being rich and being able to afford such trips shouldn't exclude them from our thoughts and sympathy.
We used to frequently be asked on here, 'what's the last thing to go throught a fly's brain when it hits the windscreeen?' Does make you wonder.
Find it hard to feel sorry for those with enough cash to spunk on some vanity trip such as this. Would feel the same if the space tourists perished.
They are just normal people who have don well out of life, dont begrudge other peoples wealth, although it does appear to be quite a common thing to do on STW.
I think the point above about what people who have larges sums of spare cash choose to spend it on is questionable, but they are just normal people like you or I, they were born the same as you or I and will die at some point too, sooner rather than later unfortunately it looks like for them
Looking at those pics, did they even get put in the water? ie simple way to make loads of dosh. Lock people in a tin can with no windows, winch them up in the air, move them around a bit and then turn a DVD on of shots of the Titanic 🙂 they would never know
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes...
The amount of resources spent on trying to find these idiots will be staggering. I hope they or the relatives are charged for the operation given the predicament they find themselves in is entirely of their own doing
i really hope they are found alive, but with all the suffering that goes on in the world due to poverty, I’m struggling to muster much sympathy for a group of exceedingly rich people who have spent the best part of a million quid between them on a jolly which lets face it, most sane people would give a hard pass
probably an unpopular view, but hey ho
Looking at those photos, that must be the cheapest way to get a camera down to 4000m.
A simple, cheap surface ship. No need for DP or a large crane as the sub is made of kevlar not steel.
A very simple sub made on a budget.
That's how they only charge $250,000 per person for a 9 day trip.
So there is no physical port hole and all of the viewing will be via CCTV? What is the point of going?
Another member of the Marine Engineering/Pressure systems community here -
There is a very good reason why we're only allowed to build pressure vessels using traceable materials with the correct certifications, and this is for refrigeration and water systems running at <20BarG.
The more I read about this the more i'm relieved I don't have the money to contemplate doing things like this.
Sadly i think there is no way they are going to walk away from this.
re the money vs risk bit..
we are all riding around on bikes that are worth more than a lot of peoples cars, and we choose to chuck ourselves off stuff that can end in injury or death.
its the same thing, slightly different scale.
you interperate the risk in your own way
i see my hobby as being relatively low risk, based on where I'm riding and my ability. What if the the tourists were told there had been 100 successful missions, then you could argue there's 1% risk.. (i don' know the figures, probably much less successful trips). At the end of the day, you want to sell the safety of your service., even though you sign a waiver for your life (don't we do the same at bike parks?)
That’s how they only charge $250,000 per person for a 9 day trip.
I hope that the catering is up to scratch for that sort of money! But I suspect that all the rich and farty food will be for the return trip once they are out of the can.
There is a small portal, this is from the chap on BBC Breakfast this morning;
But those are surface vessels with a keel and designed to bob about on the surface with a suitable CoG.
Rowing boats generally don't have much of a keel and definitely have been know to do 360 rolls. A yachts keel is mostly to counteract the force of the rig (which this does not have) - and to convert the sideways force into forward motion.
This sub is powered by a lot of batteries - even though it's made of CF and titanium it still weighs 10 tons - and they will all be stored in the bottom forming a keel of sorts. So i doubt it's going to spin around like a cigar tube.
I am surprised that there isnt an emergency balloon that deploys
Wouldn’t they have a GPS tracking system installed (with back-up!), so if it’s on the surface it should be easy to find?
It turns out that the sub has been lost before ( for 5 hours) and they discussed putting a beacon on it...But didn't in the end.
They
arewere actual real living people with friends and families and stuff
There is some serious knowledge on display in this thread, really fascinating insights. Thanks.
How many lives do you have to rough over and how much of other's labour do you need to exploit to become a billionaire? It's not come out of his post office savings book. Can't say they'd get much sympathy around here.
I hope they're found, but it looks unlikely given the numerous failure modes. At least a crushed hull would be fast. I wonder about the declaimer and insurance, because the potential for killing billionaires is not a sensible business model. one presumes that working in international waters gives them some legal freedoms from conventional vessel regulation?