[Closed] obesity, discuss.

Was that aimed at me?

Yes but it wasn't meant to be a dig. It's a very interesting experiment if you pay attention to your body and your cravings or otherwise. It's really gobsmacking how much you can continue to eat (and fatty things too like sausages and nuts) and the weight just dissolves. Speaking as someone who had been trying to manage calories for years (with varying degrees of success), including weighing food and keeping diaries.

today i have eaten,
3 rashes of lean grilled bacon with 2 scrambled eggs.

1 banana, 1 apple

2 slices of granary bread with 1 small can of mackeral

2 malted milk biscuits

and i am obese

Lose the fruit, bread and biscuits. Join us...

Solo - how on earth can calories pass thru your body? Where do you think they go? Out in urine sweat or feaces?

Actually I do understand a bit about this - enough to know that there is a lot of rubbish on here and a lot of theory considered as fact. Now please can you post anything to back up the assertion that "Sneek calories into the body, underneath the fat production radar, and they will be passed through the body and will not end up as fat" cos this is something totally new to me that you can excrete calories.

Yes but it wasn't meant to be a dig

Ok, no I haven't tried it specifically as a plan to lose weight. I use parts of it to manage my weight.

For the record I don't dispute the theory behind it, I find it a very interesting subject. Personally though I couldn't cut some-things (like pasta) out of my diet without either suffering from lack of calories or constantly be eating.

molgrips..............i would rather enjoy my food and be obese. 😉

I'm right aren't I? Its all about bigger poo's?! I knew it!!!

And to think that a whole 'diet' industry has conspired to keep this information from us. It's a scandal!!!

its about it binners - a load of big poo's

binners, me and you should have a poo off.
cos i can produce some right old logs............ 😀

We could make it an Olympic event. We could have an earlier pie-eating competition, followed by the log-a-thon

. It's really gobsmacking how much you can continue to eat (and fatty things too like sausages and nuts) and the weight just dissolves.

Work out the calorific amount of what you are eating. You may be pleasantly surprised.

....oh, and the weight can not be 'dissolving' enough for us to ever get an after photo eh? 😉

It's really gobsmacking how much you can continue to eat (and fatty things too like sausages and nuts) and the weight just dissolves

Is the iDave diet similiar to atkins? or totally different?

Is the iDave diet similiar to atkins? or totally different?

It's low gi as opposed to low carb.

OK, interested to know why molgrips says 'lose the bread and fruit' then, as both can be low GI.

Work out the calorific amount of what you are eating. You may be pleasantly surprised.

What make you think I haven't?

TJ.

I have to just laugh at that last post.

It was an analogous statement, refering to insulin response.

If you don't elicit the correct response, then the fat production system of the body will not kick-in.
If you alter what you give your body, then it will use the fat it has stored.

Furthermore, I contributed to this thread with my thoughts on the reward response as activated in the brain and unlike you I am open to suggestions that there is more to excessive weight gain than simply counting calories. Born of both experience and reading.

I'm still waiting for you explain the Ale, sweets, fatty snack and your 10Kg surplus.

If it is as simply as calorie counting along with do more, eat less, then you should be sorted by now and not carrying your surplus 10Kg.

😉

I'm right aren't I? Its all about bigger poo's?! I knew it!!!

And to think that a whole 'diet' industry has conspired to keep this information from us. It's a scandal!!!

Very funny reading people accounts of using it. It stops fat being absorbed. Sounds fine... but what happens when fat isn't absorbed? Not big poos. It turns into oil. Your ring piece might be a good poop seal but it won't stop oil leaks! 😯

Brown bread is pretty high GI really, and fruit has lots of fructose.

The diet isn't just low GI, it's low insulinaemic. Insulin promotes the storage of fat (unless your muscles are in a depleted energy state, post-ride), and it stops your body burning fat. So reduce insulin production and you'll not only burn more fat but also not be hungry.

It works dramatically.

OK, interested to know why molgrips says 'lose the bread and fruit' then, as both can be low GI.

I could be wrong though. The goalposts seem to get moved from time to time.

stuff like rye bread is quite low GI IIRC

what foods are low insulin then?

binners, no glass pyrex dishes involved tho.......... 😀

[i]fair enough, what foods are low insulin then?
[/i]

Stuff that has a low GI.

Things with a REALLY low GI; no dairy since this makes insulin* despite being low GI; no fruit for the same reason.

* the foods don't actually contain or create insulin, your body creates it in response to eating them

stuff like rye bread is quite low GI IIRC

what foods are low insulin then?

Nuts for example. According to some replies on here, you can apparently eat as many of them as you want and you wont get fat as they "sneek under the radar"

Bullshit.

fair enough, what foods are low insulin then?

Stuff that has a low GI.

so you can eat low GI bread and fruit then?

EDIT: cheers Molgrips, I've got it now. no dairy though? no cheese, or butter? [shudder]

Ton.

How are you managing type [i]and[/i] eat your biscuits.

Also, if you're going to be obese and happy, then your list of what you've eaten today so far is a bit light weight.
I'm sure you can do better.
😉

Nuts for example. According to some replies on here, you can apparently eat as many of them as you want and you wont get fat as they "sneek under the radar

No, I tried this.. enough nuts and the sheer volume of calories gets noticed...

Warton - see my post.

EDIT: cheers Molgrips, I've got it now. no dairy though? no cheese, or butter? [shudder]

Yeah that's one of the hardest bits for me. A big cold glass of milk I really miss. And lattes. Cheese as well, but that's easier to manage, but you miss it less if you're not having sandwiches.

Full iDave details, tricks and tips are listed on the many other threads if you want to try 🙂

Although.. low GI bread.. I wonder how they make that...?

No, I tried this.. enough nuts and the sheer volume of calories gets noticed...

So you could say that you are putting in more calories than you are burning. Could this lead to some sort of...I dunno...surplus that may lead to weight gain?

But....but...how can this be?

Solo, i will make up for it at teatime
grilled skinless chicken breast with a huge pile of stir fry veggies.

grilled skinless chicken breast with a huge pile of stir fry veggies.

Watch out for any German bean sprouts.

Jamie stop trolling.

No really, there is a radar inside your body.

Look, here is a true and factual schematic of your insides.

[img] [/img]

Solo - the answer for me is easy - I enjoy the things that make me fat so have continued to consume them. Now please tell me how this can possibly happen? "Sneek calories into the body, underneath the fat production radar, and they will be passed through the body and will not end up as fat"

Jamie stop trolling.

Me? I am not the one talking about apparent Ninja foods, that can stealth there way through the human body, and fly kick there way out of my bottom before the rest of my body realises I have been intruded.

I almost feel violated.

pfft, cassette tapes, that may be your body. mines more modern, i've got cds

molgrips - have you tried using almond milk if you are struggling cutting out dairy milk.

Ton.

Leave the skin on you wuss and get some chips onto that plate.

😉

molgrips, I am on a bit of a diet change at the moment, cut out wheat, chocolate and coffee, due to a few digestion issues...

thats enough for me at the moment 😀

double post

[i]Solo - how on earth can calories pass thru your body? Where do you think they go? Out in urine sweat or feaces?[/i]

What makes you think that the body is 100% efficient at absorbing the calorific content of a substance?

TJ.

Please read the thread. [u]It was an analogy[/u] refering to insulin response. I've tried to explain that. What part of [i]Analogy[/i] don't you get ?.
😉

You are not giving us your insight on the brains reward for eating crap, response.

If its just calorie counting, then, err, the brains response shouldn't have any influence. That would just be fiddling around the edges...

[i]Ninja foods, that can stealth there way through the human body, and fly kick there way out of my bottom before the rest of my body realises I have been intruded.[/i]

PMSL, excellent.
🙂

Me? I am not the one talking about apparent Ninja foods, that can stealth there way through the human body, and fly kick there way out of my bottom before the rest of my body realises I have been intruded

Nor am I 🙂

Phil.w - I'm managing ok with the dairy to be honest. Currently, it's the Twixes I am having trouble with.

The whole dynamic seems different when I'm not riding to when I am. Haven't ridden for two weeks and it's all going wobbly.

IanMunro.

Thats right, but TJ thinks he smells blood, so he is too busy to think.

😉

I'm going home in a few minutes, so hurry up with the jokes about my poor analogy.

Jamie's was excellent.

[img] http://ts3.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=892143349206&id=37d951cc7268ca60bdbd6ba7a1ad562a [/img]

mmmmmmpie

Jamie's was excellent.

Thank you. I do all my best work when I am carb loaded.

[i]Thank you. I do all my best work when I am carb loaded.[/i]

Ah !. Thats where I've gone wrong. I've not eaten all day and now have a 3 plus hr drive home.

I'm still not hungry. Perhaps the iDiet has cured me of needing food altogether.

Who wants my food, and a spare radar ?.

Solo - I understand what an analogy is. it would help if it bore any some relationship to what actually happens tho.

nothing to do with scenting blood - I just think its right to challenge the bobbins people talk about diet on here. There is far too much confusing fact with theory.

TJ.

Yes, I am guilty of using a poor analogy, my type of lateral thinking aside.

There has been [i]bobbins[/i] and there will be loads more.

After all, this is STW.

😆

Fair enough solo.

mmmmmmpie

Approximately 3.14 times better than every other type of food.

I just think its right to challenge the bobbins people talk about diet on here.

You know that we are talking about the basis for the iDave diet, don't you? And you already admitted he was much more knowledgeable about this than the rest of us, on another thread. Therefore it's not bobbins.

Molgrips - the iDave diet is based on theories that are far from accepted. I linked to another similar theory that is gaining acceptance but is not the same. Read the NHS advice and you will find something very different - and that is the accepted scientific con census.

Anyway there is a lot of bobbins talked on this thread about other areas concerning diet where adherent of particular theories claim their pet theory as fact.

Then there is all the half remembered and understood stuff that people spout. Thats why I suggested the NHS advice as a good starting point and then consider with open minded scepticism theories such as iDaves.

Are you still taking in half a kilo of sugar / maltodextrin a week? Still claiming coke is a good recovery drink?

Anyway there is a lot of bobbins talked on this thread about other areas concerning diet where adherent of particular theories claim their pet theory as fact.

What, like your posts?

I dunno why you think you're more right than everyone else tbh.

Molgrips - back that up or retract it. I do not think I am more right than anyone else. Nor do I claim any specific knowledge on this thread.

Oh sorry, I thought that by calling us all wrong you were implying you were right.

If you are simply expressing scepticism it'd help if you were a little nicer about it 🙂

Still claiming coke is a good recovery drink?

You are accusing me of being wrong about this, are you not? Presumably because you are right - otherwise how'd you know?

Where did I say you were all wrong?

jeezo - you are going back on the killfile.

Edit - damn right I am accusing you of being wrong about the coke.

i know a obese bloke who has just done a chicken stir fry fuelled 1 hour turbo session........and with a bad ticker........ 😀

Where did I say you were all wrong?

Here:

Then there is all the half remembered and understood stuff that people spout.

And here:

Anyway there is a lot of bobbins talked on this thread

Aaand here again (quite like the previous one)

I just think its right to challenge the bobbins people talk about diet on here.

Oh, another one:

I do understand a bit about this - enough to know that there is a lot of rubbish on here

Also

There is a lot of misunderstanding and confusion on this thread

This isn't too complimentary either:

Much of what you say and claim on this is distinctly unproven theory with no factual backing or decent evidence

How's that?

We were having a good discussion until you came along and poisoned it with what I THINK is meant to be balanced scepticism but is actually mangled into totally unhelpful noise.

We were having a good discussion.....

We were?

Re the coke. Coke means insulin, insulin means muscle glycogen storage. I don't see an issue *post exercise* when your muscles are depleted.

None of what I say there is incorrect and none of it is "calling us all wrong" 🙄

Much of what you say and claim on this is distinctly unproven theory with no factual backing or decent evidence

however someone who thinks that consuming half a kilo of maltodextrin and a load of sucrose and glucose on top of that every week is clearly the right person to listen to on diet. Especially when he thinks a can of sugar solution with phosphoric acid and caramel is good as a recovery drink.

Edit - whereas I suggested the NHS for the normal accepted scientific consensus and then two different sources for new unproven theories that have some point in common and appear to make sense.

coke is high GI refined sugar, a more complex mix of lower GI sugars/carbs, nutrients and protein for muscle repair would be a better recovery drink.

Especially when he thinks a can of sugar solution with phosphoric acid and caramel is good as a recovery drink.

Mmm.. what do your muscles need to replenish glycogen? Look up 'glycogen window'

MrSmith - yes, protein and some nutrients help, the coke suggestion is better than nothing if you have no recovery drink, in my experience. Which counts for nothing in TJ's eyes of course.

The problem I have with the NHS's advice is that it's usually not for athletes.

Oh, and there seem to be lots of mistakes in that giveupsugar.com site. And it argues that fructose is not good for weight loss, which is one of the things I said way back there ^^^

however someone who thinks that consuming half a kilo of maltodextrin and a load of sucrose and glucose on top of that every week

The amout of maltodextrin I consume is calculated to replace the carbs my body consumes during exercise. It's not just stuff your face with sugar and hope for the best, like you seem to be claiming. I also don't advocate consuming sugar or glucose as a matter of course, not sure where you got that from.

Anyway, whatever. I've said my bit. Thanks for the interesting chat about the actual topic folks.

wow, finally got round to logging on again and reading through all this, amazing response, didn't expect 6 pages worth of chat. Thank you all.

Goodness me !. You do know I've got to get up at 4am !.

So, this will be my last post, today.

[i]Where did I say you were all wrong? [/i]
TJ.
Oh my lordy !, did you ever say we were wrong, with your "its all fiddling around the edges" remark.
Followed by, "its no more complicated than calories in Vs calories out", yadda, yadda.

And, with your "you've got to understand the basics" very condisending remark.

TJ.
I don't think you know much about iDave, and I'm sworn not to blurb it on here.
But. Mate, you are well and truely standing in the Shadow of iDave when you step into this field.
Try to contemplate, if you can, that there might just be someone out there, who knows a heck of alot more about this than you.
Then, if you will, try to imagine a person who is kind enough to share his knowledge and experience for free, with an idiot like me, and anyone else who cares to read what he posts, here or on google docs, etc.

It can happen, you know.

Night, night all.

😉

solo - unfortunatly i did not say either of those two things.

I do know who iDave is and I know and respect his wish to keep a low profile. His theories are interesting and thought provoking but are not the accepted medical consensus. At no point did I say he was wrong nor did i say you were all wrong - I said exactly what |i said - just mol;grips always wants to claim a much more extreme position for me that I do for myself.

I do not claim any special knowledge nor did I on this thread - just a basic understanding of the physiology, the current medical consensus and some theories such as iDaves.

Yes yo do have to understand the basics and it is clear that some folk posting on this thread do not. Its important not to loose sight of the calories in calories out equation.
thiis the post you object to

#
TandemJeremy - Member

all the stuff about desire and certain foods / sugars making you fat is fiddling around the edges. you cannot get fat with an excess of calories in to calories out - its a simple as that.

Very simple and nothing in that is wrong.
Just for the record this is my main post

#
TandemJeremy - Member

It is not just a pointless oversimplification - it is the cornerstone to understanding - you can only get fat if you have an excess of calories in compared to calories out. basic simple fact.

There are many theories about what foods encourage weight gain - see http://giveupsugar.com/ for one that seems fairly convincing to me but other reputable sources would focus on fats or carbs.

However regardless of what you eat you can only get fat with a calorie surplus. You can live on pure sugar for a long time but you will not gain weight without a calorie surplus

The actions of the food industry should be under scrutiny as well - but a lot of that is consumer led. Take two breakfast cereal manufacturers - one adds sugar to their product and sales go up - the other has to follow suit.

There are a lot of hidden calories in what we eat and drink as well - soft drinks and fruit juice are two of the worst for this. There is no doubt that we have a higher calorie intake than our parents and grandparents. Reasons for this are complex but far too often people look for complexity where none exists in order to make excuses.

Me - I am maybe 10 kg overweight. I know the answer. Stop drinking real ale and cut out the sweets and fatty snacks. Yes it is that simple.

There is a lot of misunderstanding and confusion on this thread - and a lot of surety were in fact only doubt and theory exists.

[b]Look at the NHS advice on weight loss and healthy eating - that is the medical consensus as exists now. Look ate reputable nutritional theories such as iDaves or the website above and decide how much you think applies.[/b]

Things I've eaten (and drank) whilst watching this thread develop...

Meat balls and pasta
Pancetta and ricotta stuffed pasta
Black pudding, bacon and cheese filled ciabatta
8 mini victoria sponges
3 nature valley bars
1 packet of maryland cookies
3 bowls of cereal
2 slices of toast
6 peanut butter and jam sandwiches
4 pack of Carling
2 bottles of lucozade sport
3 high 5 4:1 mix sachets
a punnett of strawberries
3 bananas
Half a bottle of red
A lot of pink grapefruit squash
Volvic with a hint of strawberry
A berry flavoured Oasis

I think that's it... although I am still hungry and have got nature valleys and bananas at my disposal.

Thanks for reading.

+1 for the sugar advice - a friend of my sister used to model for those Just 17 type mags and reckoned you could eat loads of fat as long as you didn't have the sugar - so she lived on McDs. Stick thin but crappy skin.

If I eat a Ritter mazipan bar, whcih is loads of sugar, I am one lb heavier the next day, regular as clockwork.

His theories are interesting and thought provoking but are not the accepted medical consensus

Hmm. The issue here is that the medical business is concerned with keeping people healthy, NOT training them to be athletes.

Even so they do recommend low GI often, many of my friends have been prescribed this by their GPs. I don't think there's any argument that low GI is good in general.

just mol;grips always wants to claim a much more extreme position for me that I do for myself

I apologise for this, but it really is the way you come over in your posts. More carefully chosen language (such as this most recent post) would really help us understand your position!

I think that (some 😉 ) non fat people, a lot of whom who work hard to keep their weight under control quite like seeing fat people to remind them that the will power not to eat to much and that working out is for a good reason!

I also think that some fat people just assume that lean people have the ability to eat what they like and not pile it on, and are lucky to be that way.

I also think that some fat people just assume that lean people have the ability to eat what they like and not pile it on, and are lucky to be that way

I think the majority are tbh.

I think the majority are tbh.

Not sure about that, I always thought I was like that, then when I spent 2 and a half months off injured, I put on like a stone, which is a massive amount for me. I got back to training, and lost it all very quickly. Never changed my diet at all. And to give you an idea of what I eat, right next to me now are:

4 pack of blueberry muffins (one eaten)
1 packet of jam and cream biscuits
2 terrys chocolate oranges
1 packet of roasted peanuts
1 packet haribo goldbears
2 bananas and an orange

If I ate that even with lots of riding I would still be porky.

The skinny buggers do get a bit fatter of course, but nothing like on the same scale as the endomorphs.

I got back to training, and lost it all very quickly

See, if I gain weight by being inactive I tend not to lose it again quickly (if at all) if I resume riding.

If I ate that even with lots of riding I would still be porky.

To get a true comparison you would need to compare your 'lots of riding' and RealMans 'training'. Also your diet, weight, age if you have active jobs or social life in general rather than being a couch potato etc.

Edit. For the record, I'm not skinny, and I try hard to keep my weight to about 1/2 stone above what I would like it to be.

Well I say lots of riding, I mean training, usually 10 hours a week of structured plus a few runs.

Here's a question that bothers me. when we pig out after, or during a ride, cakes, biscuits etc, do the sat fats still have exactly the same bad effect on our bodies as if we were sitting down not exercising?

I'm guessing yes?

I would also guess yes.