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I have recently changed my diet from the usual pies and beer to a healthier salad, fish and sparkling water combo. The weight is dropping off ~ 7kg in the last 5 or 6 weeks, still a bit to go to my target but Im happy with the rate of loss.
I have already begun to notice improvements in my average pace and feel much more comfortable in faster groups certainly over short periods.
Question is what should I be eating/drinking thats not going to upset my weight loss goals but will provide the go needed for 4+ hour rides?
Bit of googling suggests I should be thinking about-
Carbs before and during a ride.
Glucose/fructose
Hydration.
Post ride recovering. protien?
Caffiene
Nitrates
Any experts 🙂 with suggestions prefferably avoiding the expensive commercial products?
OMG... ok.. well.. I'd suggest not taking carbs before or during the first 45 mins of a ride, and don't eat carbs in the 2-3 hours running up to a ride. After 45 mins you can take on carbs, gels or something.
This encourages you to burn fat well, and trains fat burning. If you down the carbs you might go faster at first but you'll probably end up wanting to eat loads of carbs, and you'll end up burning less fat. And your overall endurance will be less I reckon.
Post-ride, you want a good amount of fast carbs - something sweet does the trick, Torq Recovery drink is the best I've found but it's expensive.
Dates, dates and dates. Did I mention dates?
Paleo for Athletes?
Torq Recovery drink is the best
What makes is better than any other fructose (?) drink? I always wonder whether Coke would do the job just as well.
You don't need carbs for endurance riding which is generally at a lower intensity than an all out racing speed for which you do need a small amount of carbs, teach your body to burn fat. Have a look through [url= http://eatingacademy.com/ ]this website to get an idea[/url], there's also some good pointers regarding weight loss goals on his website along with Ben's website below.
For the past few weeks i've been researching what works and what seems to be quackery as i've now got the "bike" bug again and i've realised that whilst i perhaps can't ride with the intensity like i did 6 years ago due to spinal issues that's no excuse to wallow in the corner and throw my toys out the pram so i've been preparing myself to get back into it this year, slowly but surely - hopefully.
I've been reading through [url= http://www.bencoomber.com/ ]Ben Coomber's[/url] website and listening to his podcasts along with examining the evidence for use of supplements etc through various peer reviewed studies with regard to performance/recovery etc. I've decided to try the [url= http://www.geneticsupplements.co.uk/ ]Genetic Engineered Supplements[/url] range as a friend of a friend is involved in the current testing procedures but as to whether or not they will make a difference i'll have to wait and see, perhaps i've just wasted cash on expensive commercial fairy dust but i'm willing to try them for myself.
I've just received the Sustain zero carb performance mix, Matrix recovery mix and Genetic Pre-load mix and have yet to try them in anger so to speak, i am a vegi (no fish/meat products) so i guess i do need to supplement my intake of certain proteins and minerals somewhat more than those that do eat fish/meat on a regular basis.
Caffeine is generally regarded as good thing pre ride as it enables your body to burn fat more rapidly, just as well as i do like my double espressos 😀
What makes is better than any other fructose (?) drink? I always wonder whether Coke would do the job just as well.
No. Torq packaging comes in nicer colours and thus works better.
Ok so what do you eat before a ride, say 3hrs Z2/3
What makes is better than any other fructose (?) drink?
Coke works quite well. Torq Recovery (as opposed to the normal energy stuff) has protein, glucosamine, ribose, hmb, and a load of other stuff. Works very well. But it's frigging expensive, and as mentioned antying high GI will also work, like Coke.
You don't need carbs for endurance riding which is generally at a lower intensity than an all out racing speed for which you do need a small amount of carbs,
For short races I'd personally take carbs, just to provide extra power on top of the fat burning power I'll have trained for.
Ok so what do you eat before a ride, say 3hrs Z2/3
Nuffing.
Ok so what do you eat before a ride, say 3hrs Z2/3
Whatever I normally would if I wasn't doing one.
Whatever I normally would if I wasn't doing one.
Plus one
Whatever I normally would if I wasn't doing one.
I find it hard to ride after a full english? Sits heavy in my stomach, esp with a couple of bloody marys.
I'd have porridge an hour before, then probably something like a banana or cereal bar every 1.5hrs or so. I usually carry a gel just in case, very rarely need it.
I used to think that a large bowl of porridge in the morning was the muts-nutts way to start the day as that's what i understood was the best breakfast but after recently changing my entire diet i never eat porridge in the morning now, i tend to save it for a post ride snack to replenish carbohydrate levels. For breakfast t'day i had a 2 or 3 egg omelette wi coriander and turmeric cooked in butter with roasted mushrooms, broccoli, peppers, red onions, tomato and topped wi cheese - yum!.
i used to feel lethargic in the late morning/early afternoon when i ate porridge and often slumped big style towards the end of the day but since changing my morning routine i can quite happily sail through the day wi just a handful of brazil nuts/seeds for a 3pm mid afternoon snack.
For breakfast t'day i had a 2 or 3 egg omelette wi coriander and turmeric cooked in butter with roasted mushrooms, broccoli, peppers, red onions, tomato and topped wi cheese - yum!.
Nice breakfast, but there's no way I'd eat that before doing any kind of exercise - I'd spend the whole time with it repeating on me... Porridge, all the way.
TBH I'm not quite sure why some people seem to be so anti-carb on this thread, take a look at any professional (endurance) athlete's diet and one thing they all say is the importance of keeping carb levels up, eating during exercise etc. (I suppose if your aim is weight-loss you might want to change that, but in my case it isn't...)
TBH I'm not quite sure why some people seem to be so anti-carb on this thread, take a look at any professional (endurance) athlete's diet and one thing they all say is the importance of keeping carb levels up, eating during exercise etc
I'm not anti-carb at all - I'm trying to say that the timing of high GI carbs is very important and has an effect on how your body works during the ride.
Follow the pro team chefs on twitter if you want meal ideas. @teamskychef's food always look amazing!
molgrips - Member
What makes is better than any other fructose (?) drink?
Coke works quite well. Torq Recovery (as opposed to the normal energy stuff) has protein, glucosamine, ribose, hmb, and a load of other stuff. Works very well. [u]But it's frigging expensive[/u], and as mentioned antying high GI will also work, like Coke.
Marketing costs lots of money.
Matt spends naff all on marketing.
The stuff that goes into it is expensive, that's why it's expensive. Whether or not that stuff does any good is another issue.
I've tried it, and others, and it does work well. If I were a gullible marketing led fool I wouldn't be also recommending sugary water with some flavouring in it.. which I am.
If I were a gullible marketing led fool I wouldn't be also recommending sugary water with some flavouring in it.. which I am.
To be fair you are recommending "Coke", which does kind of imply you're a "gullible marketing led fool", though.
FFS, no it doesn't. Coke is not marketed as recovery drink. It's just a common shorthand for cola based drink.
I shall recommend sugary fizzy drinks with caffeine then instead, that better?
FFSI shall recommend sugary fizzy drinks with caffeine then instead, that better?
🙂
Cola is generic, Coke is a brand (which instantly came to mind thanks to their advertising).
Yes, thanks, I'm well aware of this. Would you like a point for your scoreboard? Will it make you happy?
Yes, thanks, I'm well aware of this. Would you like a point for your scoreboard? Will it make you happy?
Don't get your knickers in a twist, t'were in jest, but if you're offering: yes please. Points mean prizes!
[img] 
[/img]
Ta chaps, I'll pick the good stuff out of that.
OMG... ok.. well.. I'd suggest not taking carbs before or during the first 45 mins of a ride, and don't eat carbs in the 2-3 hours running up to a ride. After 45 mins you can take on carbs, gels or something.
This encourages you to burn fat well, and trains fat burning. If you down the carbs you might go faster at first but you'll probably end up wanting to eat loads of carbs, and you'll end up burning less fat. And your overall endurance will be less I reckon.
Post-ride, you want a good amount of fast carbs - something sweet does the trick, Torq Recovery drink is the best I've found but it's expensive.
This has worked for me. I came off a famous diet where I got fatter and slower - 3 weeks ago. Today I'm over 3lbs lighter, and I just posted my fastest average this year - 19mph - in windy conditions as well. I could yet improve - I'm still partial to a beer in the evenings....
Fwiw, GT riders have often drink coke/cola and even Tango post race.
Just sayin'....
Can open, worms everywhere.
and don't eat carbs in the 2-3 hours running up to a ride
Not a very practical suggestion for most people I would think!
You don't need carbs for endurance riding which is generally at a lower intensity than an all out racing speed for which you do need a small amount of carbs, teach your body to burn fat
OMG....
OP, you're really better off going to a dedicated sports nutritionist rather than reading all the baloney on here.
No carbs for endurance riding? Does that include 24hr racing? 😉 There's some classic nonsense spouted on here isn't there?
Question is what should I be eating/drinking thats not going to upset my weight loss goals but will provide the go needed for 4+ hour rides?
I looked at his specific mention of not upsetting his weight loss goals and wish to manage endurance riding for 4hrs, my idea and previous experience of endurance riding is usually at a much lower intensity, certainly <70% than a quick 1.5hr to 2hr blast at perhaps 85%> capacity, he did not give any reference to 24hr racing or such like and thus i did not consider that taking on extra carbs would be beneficial as he has changed his diet to a more healthy option.
When he has reached his desired target weight then yeah, i'm sure he could start to reintroduce carbs back into his cycling regime, perhaps i read the original post wrongly but i thought he was referencing heading out for a ride wi mates rather than entering a specific endurance event. if that's the case then yeah - the advice i gave may be wrong.
There does seem to be a lot of different views on this mostly surrounding carb intake. Normally reliable sources (nhs)suggest fill up on carbs via rice pasta and spuds others with the alternative that grains will be the death of us all.
Thinking about it I have reduced my intake of starchy carbs a lot, unintentionally although a guy I work with is evagelical about this and it may rubbed off.
One view from the links above was that doing so may just be depleting glycogen stores and the associated water wich is easy but pointless weight loss. Not sure this is true as my waist has shrunk considerably.
It's been interesting reading and I'm probably going continue as I am ( Im still 5 kg over target weight so unlikely to feint) perhaps just carrying a gel for the latter stages of a ride and making sure I have either a milkshake or recovery drink post ride .
Ta
There does seem to be a lot of different views on this mostly surrounding carb intake. Normally reliable sources (nhs)suggest fill up on carbs via rice pasta and spuds others with the alternative that grains will be the death of us all.
Thinking about it I have reduced my intake of starchy carbs a lot, unintentionally although a guy I work with is evagelical about this and it may rubbed off.
One view from the links above was that doing so may just be depleting glycogen stores and the associated water wich is easy but pointless weight loss. Not sure this is true as my waist has shrunk considerably.
It's been interesting reading and I'm probably going continue as I am ( Im still 5 kg over target weight so unlikely to feint) perhaps just carrying a gel for the latter stages of a ride and making sure I have either a milkshake or recovery drink post ride .
Ta
sparkling water
Is acidic and not good for your teeth.
No carbs for endurance riding? Does that include 24hr racing? There's some classic nonsense spouted on here isn't there?
Not really, you're just extending a reasonable statement to include an extreme.
Re sparkling water-
Yep so they say but I have better insurance for dental treatment than I do for being a fat guy who drinks too much beer so it's presently a small price to pay.
When my goals are achieved I may swap to still water, saving the badoit for lunch.
sparkling water
Is acidic and not good for your teeth.
Who told you that? Yes it is acidic but only very slightly. It isn't even close to be as bad as fuzzy drinks, fruit juice and sugary things.
There is some real dubious info in this thread. Peer reviewed paper or it isn't science.
Robert Lustig :sugar the bitter truth
and don't eat carbs in the 2-3 hours running up to a rideNot a very practical suggestion for most people I would think!
Quite possibly but it depends on how you're doing your riding. For example, if you are riding to work then you can either have nothing for breakfast and get it at work, or have say sausage and egg for brekkie and something sweet at work. Then don't snack all afternoon and your ride home will be fine too.
If you are riding in the evening, do it before dinner not after.
If you are riding at the weekened then make sure you don't have carbs for breakfast and you'll be fine.
By the way, when I say 'carbs' I really mean 'high GI carbs' because this is all about insulin.
Interesting, i usually have a bowl of porridge a couple of hours before a ride on a weekend thinking it would give me the energy i need.
Interesting, i usually have a bowl of porridge a couple of hours before a ride on a weekend thinking it would give me the energy i need.
Certainly works for me. Wouldn't bother for the kind of short rides molgrips is talking about - less than 2 hours I don't think it's really an issue (unless you're racing).
There's unsurprisingly some evidence that shows that fasting before moderate cardio exersize will increase far burn during cardio, a "light" meal before the same exersize will increase fat burn over a 24 hr period after exersize.
Taking responsibly for what you're consuming*, eating smaller portions, cutting down on snacks and alcohol, and riding more will generally result in a thinner you....
*eat Less junk, cut down on starchy carbs, eat less fatty meat. Increase your veg intake. Cut out the sweeties
So what would you recommend nutrition wise for my ride this weekend?
Will be starting around 12 and will be riding for around 4 hours with plenty of hills.
In the week I cycle 15 mins to and from work, eating a bowl of bran flakes when i get in the office and tea after i get home. I don't take in a great deal of protein, so may start having recovery shakes after rides.
I am trying to lose a little belly fat, but for the weekend rides making sure i have the energy is more important.
As I will be in the saddle for 8 hours on Sunday, I shall be having beans on toast for brealfast 2 hours before, and a pre-ride energy bar 1 hour before. I won't start hitting the gels / bars until 1 hour + into the ride from when 1/2 hourly carb intake will occur.
I think.
Double post
Intensity is the key, you burn fats and carbs for energy in different percentages depending on the intensity (low intensity and generally more of your energy requirements are met from fat burning). The intensity at which the fat burning percentage starts to noticeably decline varies though and you'd need a fitness test to find yours (you can also train to increase the intensity at which you can sustain a decent percentage of fat burning). You'll always burn some carbs though (my peak fat burning is around 70%).
So if your 4 hour ride is comfortably in z2 you can probably get around it without taking on food (assuming your glycogen stores are full beforehand), maybe have a banana half way just in case (you really don't want to bonk). But if you're regularly going upper z2 and into z3 on the ride you'll deplete your glycogen stores more quickly and need to take on carbs to keep up with your energy requirement.
Edit: although also bear in mind some people burn a high percentage of carbs at low intensities so if you're one of them you'll def need carbs during the ride even if staying in z2
a) It's only riding a bike.
b) One is moved to wonder how previous generations ever managed any kind of simple physical exercise without the amazing amount of overthinking that seems to occur these days.
It's a wonder anyone can have a thread without the conversation police logging on to tell you you shouldn't be trying to improve anything.
This whole 'we never used to think about X so it must be garbage' really pisses me off. So what? Who gives a shit what people used to do? Are you like uber conservative or something?
It was an observation molgrips, a simple observation.
I apologise if this upsets you, perhaps a glass of warm milk and a little Tiger Balm rubbed into your temples might help.
It may be helpful for those that want to improve their riding and fitness.
Why have you bothered reading the thread if it doesn't interest you? 🙄
It does interest me, hence my commenting on it.
It strikes me that the cycling that most of us do is not that far, not that fast and not that important to warrant any special approach in nutritional terms.
It seems dissent is seen as unwelcome...
Crikey-
Whilst I understand the balance your suggesting.
I can assure you if Im at the back of my group this weekend and generally getting mullered on every hill, little else will be more important.
Thats what makes it a nice escape from reality.
From my experience I have had some really good rides where energy seems good but then there has been times where my energy levels are up/down and its really a bit of a struggle and less enjoyable when your working too hard just to keep up to others.
If there is something i can change in my diet that will help thats all i want to know...
It strikes me that the cycling that most of us do is not that far, not that fast and not that important to warrant any special approach in nutritional terms.
I don't see why you have to go a certain distance to warrant preparation. Most MTBers on here, when they go out, will push themselves quite hard, even if that only ends up being a short or easy ride by riding god standards.
As mentioned above, if you can feel better and have more energy when riding you'll have more fun. It's not about trying to be like a pro.
Crikey, assume you run a bike from the 1990s then? 😉
Crikey, bear in mind there are many types of audience for these threads. Those that are trying to improve performance, whether that be speed or endurance, and those that just want to enjoy riding.
The thing is that for the former, we all have different metabolism's etc and some thing work for one and not others. I followed the Race Weight diet for 3 months with now success other than weight gain, lethargy and reducing performance. I followed Molgrips advices and in three weeks have lost 3lbs and my performance (in May) matches last years (in September), so I am confident of further gains over the year. However, I have probably struck lucky and found something that works for me.
Vis a vis I WAS a casual MTB rider for many years and shoved pretty much anything into my mouth without thought. I never had any issue with energy on social rides and never gave it a thought. I'd be confident though I couldnt have jumped onto a road bike and matched my current performance (I appreciate the aerobic change that will proport to that).
Basically, there's manyb ways to skin a cat, we just choose the right one for each of us.
I agree that cycling can be and is personally important, but again; the kind of riding we do isn't hard enough or long enough to warrant a special diet.
People with very physical jobs, manual workers perhaps, expend far more energy and work far harder than we ever do, but they don't have a special 'work' diet.
People who cycled in the past, like my granny and grandad, wouldn't dream of eating special things before after and during riding a bike, because it was just riding a bike, just a normal part of life.
We all know what will make us better; more training, more time, more effort, more dedication. Nutrition can play a part in refining how we are, but I simply don't see that we need to be fuelling like athletes to potter about for 2-3-4 hours.
It also reinforces the idea that exercise is 'special', and ...getting a bit philosophical... that's a bad thing. Exercise should be normal, not something done by 'sporty' types, not exclusive.
Anyway, I've annoyed molgrips which I didn't intend to do, and I do apologise for that.
molgrips - Member..... riding [b]god[/b] standards.
I think you overestimate the audience molgrips 😉
I simply don't see that we need to be fuelling like athletes to potter about for 2-3-4 hours.
Who's pottering about?
I like to ride very hard for that amount of time and I like coming back knackered. Of course I'm not as fast as the pros but it's relative. I'm still 100% of my capacity, which puts my body under stress.
If there's a simple thing I can do to allow me to ride much faster, I'll have more fun, feel better and recover quicker. No-one's advocating anything weird here - just sticking a few gels in the backpack is hardly a pro style diet.
And I've observed that the timing of meals can have an effect, particularly if you are trying to lose weight too. If this is something that we have learned, why ignore it?
Exercise should be normal, [b]not[/b] something done by 'sporty' types
It can be either...
I'd love to know where I'm going wrong. If I have Porridge within an hour of starting the ride I have bonk-like effects 'shakes/weak'- weird. If I have toast/full breakie etc I'm fine but I feel sluggish during the ride.
If however I ride after work having eaten normally during the day I feel tip top. Don't get it.
[i]I simply don't see that we need to be fuelling like athletes to potter about for 2-3-4 hours.[/i]
Who's pottering about?I like to ride very hard for that amount of time and I like coming back knackered. Of course I'm not as fast as the pros but it's relative. I'm still 100% of my capacity, which puts my body under stress.
I'm with molgrips here, I very rarely "potter about" on my weekend rides, I like to push myself and I like to get home feeling tired. Most of my rides are with fairly competitive friends, and none of us want to be the last up or down a hill. Given that, if simple dietary changes can help I'll certainly make them - not to the single-minded extent of a pro (I'm not giving up beer, for example!), but if one breakfast or another will help...
I'd love to know where I'm going wrong.
No, you wouldn't. You are not a pro, therefore you must not pay attention to any of this. Your grandad would've taken his bonk like a man not tried to avoid it.
I'd love to know where I'm going wrong. If I have Porridge within an hour of starting the ride I have bonk-like effects 'shakes/weak'- weird. If I have toast/full breakie etc I'm fine but I feel sluggish during the ride.If however I ride after work having eaten normally during the day I feel tip top. Don't get it.
Perhaps try eating earlier?
😆
I think it speaks volumes that the 'eat your way fit' threads appear to be far more popular than the 'ride your way fit' threads.
I don't think so - most of us already ride, and are time pushed. A change in eating doesn't come with much of a time cost so it's another thing to look at, isn't it?
And it's also a much more complicated and controversial area, resulting in more confusion, hence the threads.
'Riding hard' and 'coming back knackered' is just exercise, it's the way most people felt in the days of hard physical labour.
Diet is not the limiting factor in your cycling. Time and training is.
Meh, I can see I'm not making any impression (other than on molgrips) so I'll go.
Diet is not the limiting factor in your cycling.
It can very easily be the limiting factor on any particular ride though. With the greatest respect crikey a few forum posts aren't going to overturn 20 years of personal biking experience.
Crikey I think you last statement can be incorrect, with the emphasis on "can be".
i.e. - If my sunday social is achievable fulled by Gingsters and thats what I enjoy, great. If I'm riding milgrips style, and trying to achieve beast / averages / speed using exertion then incorrect feulling and it won't work.
Its real easy - put 1/2 tank of fuel in your (average) car and try to drive 400 miles - it'll stop. Try to go 10 miles, it'll be fine. Then more marginal, put lesser quality fuel in it and it'll be sluggish or get reduced MPG, better quality more MPG.
It can very easily be the limiting factor on any particular ride though. With the greatest respect crikey a few forum posts aren't going to overturn 20 years of personal biking experience.
I'm meant to have flounced, do you mind?
If diet is the limiting factor on a particular ride, you're not well trained in my opinion. Your riding ability is related to training, not what or when you had breakfast.
A young lad I used to ride with would say 'Just another day at the office' as a way of describing particularly tough races; he was used to it, he'd done it before and so on. That's the target to aim for, the level of ability to be at, not worrying about porridge.
If diet is the limiting factor on a particular ride, you're not well trained in my opinion.
Ok, but given that most of us are not well trained, we could still improve our riding by simply eating something normal but slightly different.
It's not really complicated is it. I'm just talking about eggs for breakfast intead of cereal, hardly something your grandad would have baulked at.
I really don't see why you have a problem with it.
I don't have a 'problem' with it, I just don't see that it's worth all the attention it gets, and I don't think it has all the effects that are being attributed to it.
most of us are not well trained, we could still improve our riding
...by, fairly obviously, getting better trained.
I fully appreciate the difficulty posed by life, by children, by work, but the easy answer is the hard one; do more training rather than attempting to get 'marginal gains'.
Maybe I'm getting proper old in my old age. 🙁
are you eating [i]just[/i] porridge, or porridge with additional sweet stuff eg brown sugar/syrup/honey etc?
if the latter, the resultant insulin spike may cause energy levels to feel depleted within the time you start the ride. or so i'm told.
I just don't see that it's worth all the attention it gets
We're a load of people bored at work thinking about cycling. So we waffle on STW. It's not a big effort!
I fully appreciate the difficulty posed by life, by children, by work, but the easy answer is the hard one
Most of us already ride as much as we can get away with. If we can make our riding more fun by doing something simple, then why not?
I think you are mis-understanding the point of the thread. It's not 'how can I become a fantastic athlete simply by taking a magic pill?'.
It's more like 'given that I'm just a weekend warrior, what simple things might give me that bit more energy on my rides?' I stil think it's a perfectly valid question.
sparkling water
Is acidic and not good for your teeth.
Who told you that? Yes it is acidic but only very slightly. It isn't even close to be as bad as fuzzy drinks, fruit juice and sugary things.There is some real dubious info in this thread. Peer reviewed paper or it isn't science.
My apologies, I omitted a :-), it came from another thread on here recently and just highlights your final point. Although you should have said all threads on here concerning diet and nutrition. 🙂
@hora,are you eating just porridge, or porridge with additional sweet stuff eg brown sugar/syrup/honey etc?
if the latter, the resultant insulin spike may cause energy levels to feel depleted within the time you start the ride. or so i'm told.
Yep - Honey and raisins, the whole sheebang. How do I avoid the insulin-spike? If I have porridge/honey at work I also get the same feeling 2hours later! If I go 'naked' - just porridge would it last me then? I also notice I have a porridge-poo early in the ride too....
How do I avoid the insulin-spike?
Insulin spike is related to glycaemic load - that is, how much carbs get dumped into your blood and how quickly. Theoretically adding sugary things would raise the GI and could make you hungrier sooner, but perhaps not as the low GI parts would still be in your guts being processed. The insulin would still have its effects though.
If I eat low GI for breakfast, I can last all day without being hungry. If I eat cereal, despite having consumed more calories and carbs, I'll be starving at lunch.
Honey and raisins are low GI afaik anyway, because they are fructose. Even though people kep saying porridge is low GI I can't see it myself - you boil it up and dissolve all the starch in water, how is that low GI? Whenever I eat it I'm really hungru again 90 mins later, which is usually something I get with high GI foods. Maybe it's all down to how we make it?
I used to find the same thing with porridge, I'd be starving by 11 which I never got with eating muesli. Then I looked at just how much of that I ate for breakfast and it was at least 3 servings worth so I cut that in half and didn't feel any ill effects. A couple of months later and I switched back to porridge and no more issues with being starving by 11. I make it with soya milk and sometimes add a few nuts and seeds but even without I last till lunchtime with no problem and I have a 35-50 minute off road commute in the morning depending on which route I take.