[Closed] Notre-Dame a blaze

Looking at the aerial shot, it looks like the fire is sat on top of the vaulting rather than being at ground level. The one part of the vaulting that has gone might be where the spire fell, hard to tell but there's a hole to the left of the scaffolding in the aerial shot that is probably the same. It seems like they were very lucky that the whole of the vaulting didn't collapse, although made of stone it isn't meant to support anything other than itself.

Last summer we had a tour of the roof area of Rheims cathedral, as @Lummox says, access isn't straightforward - the staircases weren't as narrow and constricted as those at Winchester but they weren't exactly spacious.

"French billionaire Pinault pledges 100 million euros towards rebuilding Notre-Dame"

 

Just seen someone has donated 100m Euros, which is nice.

Only yesterday I re-roofed the shed and removed the huge tarpaulin that’s been covering it all winter - it’s good quality too. Thinking of donating that to help keep the weather out.

They don’t own it

Win for the pope’s bank balance then.

They don’t own it.

They can still contribute, I suppose.

And the Arnault family has also pledged 200 millions.

They can still contribute, I suppose.

Yup.

It will be interesting to see whether they choose to rebuild the roof with wood, or a less flammable material.
The history of the medieval period is littered with fires, I think Moscow used to burn down every now and often, and we had our Great Fire, mainly because we had to use the same material to build our buildings with which we fuelled our fires.

Conflicted - Notre Dame is clearly a huge global asset as a chunk of art/history and stands as a national icon.

But....as someone not enamoured by religion in general and organised religion specifically these huge lumps of stone stand for something I despise. Their very existence is a visual reminder of poor funding choices to honour a god rather than help the population - think of Boris' garden bridge but on steroids. It also sits there as fabric of an institution almost justifying and making legitimate the whole concept of religion.

Yup.

Especially given all the tourist tax revenue it helps to generate for the French state.

So to confirm anyone's allowed to make jokes about this bar jhj?

Makes you think.

Why the need for donations? Surely the place is insured?

Guy on Radio 4 this morning who has already donated €100m to its repair.

But….as someone not enamoured by religion in general and organised religion specifically these huge lumps of stone stand for something I despise. Their very existence is a visual reminder of poor funding choices to honour a god rather than help the population

Guy on Radio 4 this morning who has already donated €100m to its repair.

these huge lumps of stone stand for something I despise. Their very existence is a visual reminder of poor funding choices to honour a god rather than help the population

I agree with you there convert and whilst I wouldn't normally be defending JHJ, divine retribution on the catholic church for it's complicity in child abuse was one of the things that crossed my mind. (Strange that this fire is seen as a catastrophy whilst years of child abuse from the catholic church is brushed aside.)

wonder if he also donated €100m to ease the appalling conditions at the Calais camps? Perfectly sums up the hypocrisy of this monument if not.

And the whataboutery commences.

So to confirm anyone’s allowed to make jokes about this bar jhj?

It was one of random political theories not a joke.

Did quotes make my post invisible? Same thing repeated 4 times afterwards. Oh well 😆

Did quotes make my post invisible? Same thing repeated 4 times afterwards. Oh wel

Imagine how CClou feels about it.

wonder if he also donated €100m to ease the appalling conditions at the Calais camps? Perfectly sums up the hypocrisy of this monument if not.

Like it or not, it's part of the tapestry of European history. Letting that be destroyed is as terrible as letting any other historical building or artefact slide into destruction. For example, let's not forget that the building has helped to heavily shape our understanding of the development of western music.

Would you rather we do a Chairman Mao and destroy our culture and history for the cause? How did that work out for China?

There is a big difference between destruction and feeling it is necessary to reconstruct after ‘natural disaster’.

wonder if he also donated €100m to ease the appalling conditions at the Calais camps?

Didn't realise this was an either/or decision.  Maybe he forgot to consider the potential new hospital wing for sick children, or the home for poorly puppies and kittens, or the potential to fund ground breaking research into dementia.  Is the gesture invalid because someone doesn't champion your personal cause?

@Convert Not really, the end point is the same as we'd lose it all given that attitude.

There is a big difference between destruction and feeling it is necessary to reconstruct after ‘natural disaster’.

No not really.

And the whataboutery commences.

Just making the point that for too many of us on earth, things > people.

Utter ****ing waste of money when Paris has some of the most deprived living areas in Europe, sort out equality for all before adorning your city with pointless trinkets

libertie, egalite, fraternitie

Utter **** waste of money when Paris has some of the most deprived living areas in Europe, sort out equality for all before adorning your city with pointless trinkets

That would be the most visited monument in Paris, and a huge tourist draw? That pointless trinket you mean?

It'd make a great ruin.
There are more important things to spend/invest money & resources in.

so the most visited tourist draw in Paris has contributed exactly how much to the further raising of equality for those living on the streets of Paris ?, like I said....utter ****ing waste of money, like the Glasgow school of art....let it burn and build a modern city for all, not just a skyline and trinkets harking back to a time when religious intolerance was rife.

so the most visited tourist draw in Paris has contributed exactly how much to the further raising of equality for those living on the streets of Paris ?

Yeah, the French would be in a much better position without the yoke of the tourist industry generating money and jobs.

on the streets of Paris ?, like I said….utter **** waste of money, like the Glasgow school of art….let it burn and build a modern city for all, not just a skyline and trinkets harking back to a time when religious intolerance was rife.

How did the 1950s dream of a modernist urban utopia work out for us? Brutalism.....WHOOOOOOO!

And if you care about religious intolerance, surely remembering it is the way forward? That's like stating we should let Auschwitz burn to the ground because the holocaust was horrific.

Remember though, the human need to understand our world led to religion and then rationality. Two faces of the same human coin. Not to mention that Notre Dame was a church to the cult of reason at one point....it stands as a monument of the journey to where we are today.

so the most visited tourist draw in Paris has contributed exactly how much to the further raising of equality for those living on the streets of Paris ?, like I said….utter **** waste of money, like the Glasgow school of art….let it burn and build a modern city for all, not just a skyline and trinkets harking back to a time when religious intolerance was rife

Edit: I can't even begin to argue with such polarised views on matters.

maybe they could do a modern reconstruction?
turn it into a launch pad for Tesla spacecopters?

The Edge Lords are out in full force

If you want full on weird, the Trump fans on Twitter are already blaming dark forces (aka Muslims):

https://twitter.com/MarkTJay3/status/1118008038357635072

https://twitter.com/TrumpLadyFran/status/1117972048586743809

What would Jesus do? Spend millions rebuilding a cathedral or use the money for the poor. I think he said something along the lines that any place where you talk about me is a church.

I am not Christian but it seems horrible how far from Jesus's words (many of his general thoughts and word were and are positive messages) some people who call themselves Christians have gone where by they are so interested in symbolism.

If you want full on weird, the Trump fans on Twitter are already blaming dark forces (aka Muslims):

If I told you some Brexit supporters have been since the first reports of the fire would you be surprised?

What would Jesus do? Spend millions rebuilding a cathedral or use the money for the poor

Guessing Jesus probably wasn't that well informed about the workings of 21st century economies, and how investing millions to recover more due to tourism etc might actually help the poor more in the long run?

If I told you some Brexit supporters at have been since the first reports of the fire would you be surprised?

Shocked, I'm shocked. To the core.

Would Jesus spend millions on nuclear weapons as well?

There are plenty of other things to cut before history and culture.

There are also plenty of NGOs throwing money at the poor to little avail. At least this will create employment for little return to the investors. A 100 million donation is still a 100 million transfer of wealth to the various social classes involved with the rebuild. Keynesian economics right there.

What would Jesus do?

He’d feed the workers fish finger sandwiches.

raybanwomble, who said anything about spending money on nukes and aircraft carriers. No, spend on improving the quality of life for the homeless & underprivileged. Its what Jesus would have done*
* I really don't know this of course like you haven't a clue about what I think.

The difference of spending money on nuclear weapons or other items is that this money is never donated or claimed to be for religious for a religious casue. The money being donated to rebuild the cathedral is.

I am looking forward to visiting the Louis Vuitton Cathedral once it is rebuilt.

The money being donated to rebuild the cathedral is.

I thought the money was being donated to rebuild an item of historical and cultural importance? Also you're seeing different reports, religion seams to barely register

EDIT: FWIW if somewhere like Rosslyn Chapel was to burn down here I'd probably donate towards the rebuild, and I give zero ****s about religion

The difference of spending money on nuclear weapons or other items is that this money is never donated or claimed to be for religious for a religious casue

Hah! Weapons have never been bought for religious or political (political mass movements are religious in nature as well) purposes, like ever.

The stupidity shown in this thread is quite spectacular.

Why is every choice so binary all the time?
They could do both?

Because people.are idiots. That's why Joe.

I thought the money was being donated to rebuild an item of historical and cultural importance?

Exactly this - I am not in the slightest bit religious but I have been to churches, temples, ruins, national parks etc etc all over the world just because they are there. And why not?

If you want full on weird, the Trump fans on Twitter are already blaming dark forces (aka Muslims):

No surprise there. That bloke in the video was wearing a yellow jacket. Makes you think.

The historic, architectural and cultural significance is appreciated by all, the religious significance for those who are Christian, so I'm not dismissing the religious aspect but it's reasonable for the French state to pay for this rather than the pope (!)

As for finding the money, it can be done. Nuclear weapons are silly but they have nothing to do with it.

Throwing money at them only goes so far and there are already people doing that. This will create employment, like the Public Works Admistraion did in America during the great depression.

Exactly, just in the same way the cathedrals were built in the first place... to keep the masses busy and gainfully employed. What better way than to take a few hundred years to build a cathedral employing several generations of peasants, giving them useful skills, to keep them in check, give them jobs in a society before law and order, religion served as an effective mechanism to create some moral and societal structure and rule based living all with the ever present threat of some all powerful, all seeing, all knowing beardy bloke floating up above the clouds who would condemn you to an eternity of torment and pain in the pits of hell if you step out of line. Religion is a man-made construct created for practical purposes to serve the progress of mankind. It should have been superseded when the rule of law was invented and our current civic structures started to emerge, but so much power in the hands of a few blokes in gowns and silly hats was too much to relinquish and so we still have to suffer the scourge of religion.

Despite my opinion on religion I am in awe of the buildings and structures it created, or rather the skills and workmanship of the people Who created them, and these things are worth preserving and rebuilding. I love Paris and it would be all the poorer if they don’t rebuild it.

It will be interesting to see how it gets rebuilt - apparently an awful lot of it dated from extensive renovation done in the 19th century so one option would be to take it back to its mediaeval configuration. Personally I think it would be good to do a bit of that, a bit of the 19th c, and a bit of something more contemporary. It seems a bit unimaginative to just replicate it as was...

Apparently the rose window and the organ are OK.

Total donation by the 3 richest family in France is 500 millions euros.
A few others make total so far 600 millions.
As someone else above, could not care about religion but appreciate the building. I also hope they will include modern touches, like glass pyramid at the Louvre.

It’s a lovely building and means a lot to the French people. If individuals want to donate money for a rebuild then that’s up to them. I just like to think that God set fire to it for s laugh.

Wow. With the conceptions of God being set out on this thread, it’s no bloody wonder that STWers aren’t religious.

Good grief.

It was /is an old building and would have caught fire at some time, as do a lot of newer buildings,keep the bits that are ok, outer walls and put a glass roof over the shell, and convert it to affordable flats and homes, paid for by all those large companies finding large amounts of cash to spend on its rebuilding,or as has been done in Liverpool, in the bombed out church world war 2 damage, keep the shell and convert it to a public space, and a landmark destination place to visit.

In the next few years there will be more older and newer building suddenly catch fire and are destroyed, not helped by the desimation of the fire service, and lack of staff and appliances.

and convert it to affordable flats and homes

Come on, you’ve got to be more subtle with DTF style troll posts!

Cyclist’s fault, apparently.

neil the wheel

Subscriber

Cyclist’s fault, apparently.

Obviously- if it'd been a driver's fault they'd have it all fixed and back to normal with 10 hours of community service

it is already and a public place and a landmark to visit .

This is brilliant give Europe money for their knackered church. THINK!! Would they do it if Westminster burned down? NON

Lol at Phil, you OK hun?

This is brilliant give Europe money for their knackered church. THINK!! Would they do it if Westminster burned down? NON

Sadly, pathetic and insular views like this are all too prevalent and voiced frequently in Britain at the minute.

insular

Hardly,

I don't envy the team that will be responsible for removing that scaffolding currently up around the cathedral. That is itself looks like an epic task.

If this has done one thing it's raised some awareness of other culturally and religiously significant sites that have been ripped up, flattened and destroyed to make way for pipelines, roads etc. they just belonged to the indigenous populations of places we invaded over the years.

I don’t envy the team that will be responsible for removing that scaffolding currently up around the cathedral. That is itself looks like an epic task.

The exciting bit is going to be supporting and inspecting the stone vaults to see whether they are still viable. Just because they are still standing doesn’t mean they are in anyway safe. Stone really doesn’t react well to the type of heat generated by a fire of that size. I’d have far more faith in the surviving timberwork.

I love the comments about ‘it was a timber building, it was bound to burn down’ has anyone tried setting fire to a of 14” square oak beam (even if it has been drying for a couple of hundred years)?

If only we had this in the UK for the grenfell disaster.

what a sh1tty comment - trumps anything by jhj...

philxx1975

Member

This is brilliant give Europe money for their knackered church. THINK!! Would they do it if Westminster burned down? NON

President Trump? Is that you?

Total donation by the 3 richest family in France is 500 millions euros.

offsetable against their tax bill probably, maybe for the next few years?

President Trump? Is that you?

😂

offsetable against their tax bill probably, maybe for the next few years?

Maybe we should tell them not to bother then.

Questions raised under general ignorance (mine).

I thought oak beams smouldered not burned whoosh gone?
How does the structure react to tons of weight suddenly being lost off the top?
Why do I feel happy and uneasy that a couple of families can suddenly come up with vast sums of money to donate?
A million euros sounds generous a hundred million seems a bit excessive.
And why publicise the donation? If it were me I would prefer the warm glow of donating anonymously.
Having suffered living in a G2* property I really hope the rebuilding includes some new materials and techniques. I believe buildings tell more through their evolution and adaption to change of use rather than being kept as a museum piece.

President Trump? Is that you?

Could easily be - he has form in this department..

"40 Wall Street actually was the second-tallest building in downtown Manhattan. And it was actually before the World Trade Center ... the tallest," Trump told New Jersey's WWOR. "And then when they built the World Trade Center, it actually became known as the second tallest, and now it's the tallest."

Apparently not. Nothing to do with tax. Law is different in France and at present donations cannot be offset against tax, only in some exceptional cases. But I expect Macron to change it.

French TV are saying vault needs to be assessed, and still early days.

My friend in Paris is not sure who started the fire but he's got a hunch😮

French TV are saying vault needs to be assessed, and still early days.

I love the way they let the world's media have a tramp around inside the vault (of as-yet unassessed structural stability) as the ashes were still smouldering. Though the opportunity to entomb a Daily Mail reporter was probably too hard to resist.

This will create employment, like the Public Works Admistraion did in America during the great depression

I'm not convinced the skills required to rebuild that will be found at the local job centre tbf..

My friend in Paris is not sure who started the fire but he’s got a hunch😮

Been done on page one..you're late...

Unlike your bike frame..

I’m not convinced the skills required to rebuild that will be found at the local job centre tbf..

Stone masons and blacksmiths aren't usually from upper middle class backgrounds are they? Then there's the planning side, that will employ all sorts of assistants on top of skilled architects etc. Couldn't you also use the project to train some youngsters as apprentices?

There are all sorts of ways a concerted rebuild effort could be used for the public good.

Interesting take on the rebuild here
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/04/17/debate-should-notre-dame-rebuilt-mould-original-reimagined-modern/

Replicate or redesign?

I like the idea mentioned earlier of a restoration to take it as far back to the medieval version as they can - with some modern bits thrown in. New meets old etc.

I have yet to meet anyone who wishes that 25 years ago Hampton Court had been given a glass hall on its south front or that at Windsor’s St. George’s Hall should have been a glass atrium rather than the elegant gothic revival interior that is now there.

I think that puts the argument to bed honestly - but I can see the other argument as well. It does strike me as a building that would suit a modern rebuild.