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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-37693295
I mean - how the hell is someone who can't get enough money together to get a roof over their heads going to be able to pay the sodding fine?!
NIMBYism?
Good luck fining someone with no income or fixed abode
Where will they send the bailiffs and what will they take?
Poor sods, and I mean the one's with willies so small they have to pick on the week and vulnerable to make themselves feel good.
Yeah, thats about as stupid as stupid gets.
[I]Good luck fining someone with no income or fixed abode [/I]
It's not the initial fine that is the problem, but not paying the fine is then a criminal offence.
Same approach has been used for years to 'criminalise' folk, TV licences anyone?
You guys don't get it ...
The Rushcliffe Borough Council has followed the rules as dictated by their computer system.
Computer says ... issue fines.
Then once that is expired the computer will say "eviction".
Finally "arrest" if previous actions do not improve the matter.
If someone is sleeping rough something has gone wrong in their life already, but if they are lucky they may find a path back, that is now being made much less likely by some ****ing prick in authority criminalising their already sad life.
Yeah, but it makes me feel like the sheriff in Rambo.
My wife does a lot of work collecting for charity. She went to a local church last week in quite a well-to-do village. One of the parishioners stated that she doesn't want to help the homeless as "they are usually better off than I am".
The system that rewards that woman with a million pound house and a Porsche whilst punishing those at the very bottom disgusts me.
People disgust me.
If someone is sleeping rough something has gone wrong in their life already, but if they are lucky they may find a path back, that is now being made much less likely by some **** prick in authority criminalising their already sad life.
Yet someone will be along shortly support this vile action.
I volunteer with a homeless charity and was disappointed but not surprised by Rushcliffe council.
Brain dead policy; issue fine - can't pay - increase fine upto £1k max - still can't pay - go to court - then what?
They should look at integrating with the city and county council homeless policies and services instead of acting unilaterally and victimising those who are already holding the shitty end of the stick.
Local councillors influenced by 'wealthy' residents - two groups of incompetents and each with a sense of 'entitlement'.
I wonder if Ken Clarke, the local mp, will be attending the homelessness debate in the commons next thursday?
If anyone reading this is a constituent of his, why not email his office and ask the question.
britain becoming more like NAZI germany each day.......
hmm, so a criminal record and the bailiffs after you if you ever get to the stage of being able to turn your life around,
I can't see the problems here .....
Rushcliffe Borough Council is using powers introduced in 2014, called Public Spaces Protection Orders (PSPOs).
The powers mean councils can ban certain activities if they have had "a detrimental effect on the quality of life of those in the locality".
So could the same bans and fines be levied on odious residents?
But they are so untidy 😉 What business owner wants to be turfing tramps out of their doorways of a morning? What we need is more expensive housing and a poorer hand-to-mouth desperate workforce to exploit, it's the fewchure.
Disclaimer: I in no way endorse the vile repugnant behaviour of your average two faced British ****bag who believes for every problem there is a punishment.
What a great world we live. It seems everyone in society who needs help, now gets a kicking instead.
This together with the guy who wanted to make it treason to not support brexit shows how usless local councils are. The fact that this got past some nut jobs proposal and was passed. Unbelievable levels of idiocity.
What a great world we live. It seems everyone in society who needs help, now gets a kicking instead.
You're forgetting, there's no such thing as society....
britain becoming more like NAZI germany each day.......
You should have paid more attention at school.
britain becoming more like NAZI germany each day.......
In so much as the trains are getting more punctual
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[edit] that was Mussolini. Wrong fascist. Damn.
No one is going to be enforcing these fines, it's just to legitimise harassment that persuades them to leave the nice areas and go somewhere else.
Makes no sense, considering they haven't got any money to start with!
They should fine them with "community service" time instead; Rushcliffe ends up cleaner and tidier and the homeless get given a sense of worth/purpose. Everyone benefits.
Growing up in Nottingham I never heard "bread and lard island". It is a bit like the story says though. If you carry on south to Edwalton, you get to streets where houses were built with gardens much bigger at the front than the back.
Shame, Nottingham used to have an amazing homelessness charity that achieved a very low number of rough sleepers at one point. I think it was 2011 they were handed a 50% funding cut, and probably more since.
They should fine them with "community service" time instead; Rushcliffe ends up cleaner and tidier and the homeless get given a sense of worth/purpose. Everyone benefits.
That's great and I think you should lead by example.
Well done.
That takes some courage.
Csb.."its just to legitimise harassment." Nail head interface!
Brain dead policy; issue fine - can't pay - increase fine upto £1k max - still can't pay - go to court - then what?
Paupers prison I presume. That has to be a cost effective way to get them off the streets.
Well you could get a load of fines and then go to prison as you can't pay - you'll have a room over your head.
Paupers prison I presume. That has to be a cost effective way to get them off the streets.
Or invest in a hostal. 💡
Idiot on the East Midlands Today FB page: "We should send them back where they came from".
St Anns? the Meadows? Radford?
I did some work with a Christian group many moons ago giving soup and fags to the homeless. The ones we met were all locals with either drink or drug problems, or in one case an old lady who had run away from her violent husband.
The world is turning into a nasty bigoted place. 🙁
So let me get this straight. We spend public money issuing someone who has nothing with a £100 fine that would see them fed for a month (possibly more) and then when they don't pay it we spend more public money to increase it to £1000 and give them a criminal record so their chances of getting back on their feet become even worse and maybe just maybe we issue an arrest warrant (using public money again) and lock them up for a few days to teach them a lesson when they don't pay the fine.
End result we spend a whole heap of cash to give them a night or two in a bed with a couple of hot meals.
If that's the end position why not give them £100 to stay in a low cost B and B and have a meal or two at the local pizza place? Same net effect but only costs us £100.
I am of course being flippant but really how is criminalising people in this situation of any humanitarian, societal or financial benefit.
Better to look for solutions to the problems that put and keep them there.
Words fail me. Some cockwombleness of the highest order going on. Basic version seems to be person sleeps rough because of various reasons, person two (who probably lives with their partner in a four bedroom house) complains. Answer is to fine person with no income or assets. Farcical.
If that's the end position why not give them £100 to stay in a low cost B and B and have a meal or two at the local pizza place? Same net effect but only costs us £100.
That sounds like the "cashback scheme" that they're going to try in Toxteth.....
Lily Allen should sort it out.
"We should send them back where they came from".
St Anns? the Meadows? Radford?
Bloody hell, man, do you not think these people have suffered enough?
I work in central Nottingham, and use the canal towpath to ride in if I commute by bike. Always been an issue of homeless and alcoholics around the towpath, but this last few months there has regularly been people living in tents between the marina and the retail park. It's definitely getting worse as an issue.
As plenty have said, these people need help, not criminalising.
The system that rewards that woman with a million pound house and a Porsche whilst punishing those at the very bottom disgusts me.
Agreed and the people who defend that system have blood on their hands - plain and simple.
Watched this earlier:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0803b8x
Very sad and how on earth did this country get away with treating people in such a demeaning manner. 🙁
Ken Loach's new film "I, Daniel Blake" has already won an award at Cannes. No doubt it will be as hard-hitting as "Cathy Come Home". Will definitely watch.
heh... there's a few on here that orgasm over the situation
Undoubtedly yunki.
...and you know fine well some people on this forum are reading this and going "bloody lefties"
Why are these people not in a hostal ? I assume the council has a few at its disposal
jambalaya - worth watching to find out what the local Council were doing. Some were dependent on the church to give them a roof over their head and a hot meal, however the church was running short of funds and were facing closure. It really is madness.
Why are these people not in a hostal ? I assume the council has a few at its disposal
Hostels were one of the first things to go, cos, you know, we all have to tighten our belts, even those of us whose belts are in fact string.
If the government pursues policies which exacerbate homelessness whilst at the same time cutting services for the homeless, what did you think would be the outcome?
Also, I think the homeless should be encouraged to sleep rough in the more "aspirational" parts of town, so all the Tory voters can see the consequences of their vote.
Also, I think the homeless should be encouraged to sleep rough in the more "aspirational" parts of town, so all the Tory voters can see the consequences of their vote.
+1
@jambalaya; 'living' conditions in some hostel are worse than being on the street; some rough sleepers have severe behavioural problems which would not be tolerated in hostels; hostel provision by councils is extremely limited - charitable organisations are much more active but number of places still woefully short
My forecast - this situation will continue to worsen.
My experience? Long standing volunteer with homeless charity with many contacts in the 'third sector'.
UK is claimed to be 4th/5th richest country by GDP but homelessness/rough sleeping continues to grow; someone please explain that to me.
so moving away from this.
Stupid question alert...
How can we get homeless people into work?
I'm one for helping them back on their feet.
Is your MP attending the homelessness debate on 28th October? Why not email their constituency office to ask.
If you're interested I can provide a template letter to use; it was produced by Crisis - www.crisis.org.uk; email me for a copy or post a comment on this thread.
@travis; if only it was that simple - they need to engage with support services and/or dedicated charities; understand their requirements; provide 'structured' support for them; development plan; addiction support if appropriate; behavioural change (?); accommodation; training/retraining and skills development; cv writing; interview practice; sponsored work placements - but it all takes time, money, commitment and a structure.
Everyone is different with differing needs and issues.
And another key consideration - the damage being caused to already vulnerable people by illegal highs needs to be seen close up to be believed.
There is so much more but that's it for tonight.
Frank: please email me a copy of the Crisis thing.
I've been bugging my MP over various things lately (with at least superficially positive results) for a few months now so he'll possibly be worth a shot.
Richard Arkless SNP, don't agree with his politics but he doesn't appear to be a complete tw*t...
@scruffywelder; no email address in your profile.
www.crisis.org.uk/nooneturnedaway
On Friday 28 October MPs will have their first debate on the Homelessness Reduction Bill. If successfully passed through Parliament, it will stop homeless people being turned away when they approach their council for help.
Unless 100 or more MPs attend this first debate, parliamentary rules mean that just one MP will be able to kill the bill. And because most MPs work in their constituencies on Fridays, getting more than 100 to stay on at Parliament to attend will be really tough.
Please help by emailing your MP and ask them to attend the debate and support this vital bill by using the link above; you may need to copy and paste into your browser.
If they know their constituents want them to back this then they will be more likely to stay in Westminster.
[quote="frankconway"]
.................
UK is claimed to be 4th/5th richest country by GDP but homelessness/rough sleeping continues to grow; someone please explain that to me.
easy. Low tax economy means a low budget for services. Look to say the Netherlands. Much higher taxation. Rough sleeping almost unknown
Elsewhere the STW massive discuss property in terms of an "investment vehicle" and having a "property portfolio" grrrrrr
jambalaya - Member
Why are these people not in a hostal ? I assume the council has a few at its disposal
Spectacular.
UK is claimed to be 4th/5th richest country by GDP but homelessness/rough sleeping continues to grow; someone please explain that to me.
easy.despite everyone starting out life pretty much the same, some people choose to become loosers, drunks or druggies, then expect other to help them out.
Oldtalent - be interested to know what sort of society you were born into, born equal sounds either amazing or trolling on a massive scale
Same as other countries - but other more civilised countries have services in place to support people who have fallen into homelessness. You know - simple things like having subsidised state housing, benefit levels that allow folk to actually have a roof over their head - that sort of thing
How do you account for the fact that a large proportion of rough sleepers are ex servicemen
Obvious troll is obvious.
easy.despite everyone starting out life pretty much the same, some people choose to become loosers, drunks or druggies, then expect other to help them out.
So much wrong with this I'm assuming it's a troll. Nonetheless:
starting out life pretty much the same
Wrong, even from birth we all start out different, then add bad upbringing, legitimate health issues, legitimate mental issues, etc. etc. I was brought up in a stable household with good, educated parents who pushed me to take school and uni seriously. Not everybody is that lucky.
choose to become loosers, drunks or druggies
Think of so many of the causes behind people becoming losers, drunks or druggies. Gambling? Massive industry with marketing and high street presence, designed to extract as much money from people as possible. Known to be addictive. Drinking? Massive industry with marketing and high street presence, designed to extract as much money from people as possible. Known to be addictive. Drugs? Less easy to defend, I was taught from a young age to avoid all of them (including the legal ones) and even when I did dabble was fortunate enough to have a good enough quality of life that I didn't become dependent. But when you're already at rock bottom? I'd probably be seeking whatever cheap oblivion I could find.
Face it there will always be a bottom 10%, it's our choice as a supposedly civilized, 1st world nation how we choose to deal with it.
easy.despite everyone starting out life pretty much the same, some people choose to become loosers, drunks or druggies, then expect other to help them out.
Gosh! 1950 just called and wants its ignorance back. Perhaps we could criminalise homosexuality too, just to tie up the loose (correct usage) ends.
Stupid question alert...
How can we get homeless people into work?
I'm one for helping them back on their feet.
Case by case. 'On your feet' for Gary might mean first conquering the effects of isolation and/or addiction. Trudy may simply need an offer of a spare room, shower and access to the internet - but if this isn't forthcoming then a year down the line you may not even recognise her. Gail, on the other hand, went 'feral' after being raped by her husband. Only skills she had were as a mother but now years of life on the street has become 'the norm', she's gone awry mentally, has major trust and social issues and her physical health is declining fast with gangrene setting in. You want to find her a job first, or a home, case worker and care package? Or (I've heard people say) just offer her a job and if she messes that up it's her own fault?
Very strange move by the council. I live in West Bridgford and don't think I've ever seen a homeless person here. They are using a particularly blunt/stupid policy to solve a problem that doesnt even exist.
I assume they are hoping that it just means that anyone tempted to sleep rough just stays on the north side of the river.
Number of homeless in Netherlands had increased by 74% between 2009 and 2015 - Statistics Netherland
95% of Rotterdam residents feel that homelessness in a major problem - NL Times
Low tax economy means a low budget for services. Look to say the Netherlands. Much higher taxation. Rough sleeping almost unknown - Tjagain
Take you pick about which one to believe....but tax is unlikely to be the answer
The other big demographic group apart from ex servicemen sleeping rough are kids coming out of council care
[quote=oldtalent ]
easy.despite everyone starting out life pretty much the same, some people choose to become loosers, drunks or druggies, then expect other to help them out.
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(another name added to the "block user" list)
Getting homeless folk back into work is very difficult. the odds are stacked against them. One example that I was involved in.
I had hire and fire power in one post. We had advertised for care workers. I offered interviews to everyone who applied - IIRC about 8 people who met the very basic minimum requirements. amongst them was a chap around 45 who had very bad teeth and who turned up in a suit that must have been 30 years old. He interviewed OK but had huge gaps in his employment history. His references were the manager of the homeless hostel and the organiser of a lunch club he volunteered at.
It would have been very easy for me to just reject him as I had other candidates who could fill the post. I did manage to establish from his refeerees that he did not have a chaotic lifestyle and I gave him the chance figuring that he had tried hard to get into a position ( volunteering etc) where he would at least have a chance of employment and I also thought that the job would mean more to him than to many folk thus he would really try hard at it. It was a gamble tho on my behalf but it paid off. He became a very reliable staff member.
I had to look beyond the bad suit, bad teeth, homelessness and lack of work for decades to see the positives he could offer me as an employer but I was prepared to take the gamble. I can see why other folk would not have done so. Remember this was working with vulnerable adults
teamhurtmore - MemberNumber of homeless in Netherlands had increased by 74% between 2009 and 2015 - Statistics Netherland
Take you pick about which one to believe....but tax is unlikely to be the answer
Low tax economy means a low budget for services. Look to say the Netherlands. Much higher taxation. Rough sleeping almost unknown - Tjagain
Homeless =/= rough sleeping. Obviously.
@oldtalent; i wondered how long it take for the uninformed (ignorant?) and prejudiced or trolls to comment.
Congratulations - you're the first!
It's clear you don't use the 4Fs so let me explain:
First
Find the
F***ing
Facts
Ta Northwind. Point well made. Homelessness is not the same as rooflessness
My sister lives in city centre Amsterdam. You simply do not see rough sleepers in the same way I do in Edinburgh. On my commute to work in Edinburgh I pass 3 or 4 every day. I have never seen one in my visists to amsterdam
[quote=tjagain ] On my commute to work in Edinburgh I pass 3 or 4 every day. I have never seen one in my visists to amsterdam
Staggering increase in glasgow over the last few years. I can think of at least a dozen on the block my office sits on, slap bang in the city centre.
but why should we care, it's their choice after all...
Why are these people not in a hostal ? I assume the council has a few at its disposal
[b]Tory voting, well off person in not having the first clue what goes on in the real world shocka![/b]
Yeah, Jammers. Councils have got absolutely loads of properties to use to house the homeless. Have you not heard? You must have read about all this surplus housing stock they've got? And masses of funds to kit them all out in a suitably luxuriant style, where up-market catering firms can drop off their meals
All the homeless got bored with the endless luxury though, and decided to sleep under a railway bridge instead, because its all just like a great big adventure
Remind me again....... which planet do you live on?
No it doesn't NW obviously, in the Dutch stats it included people, with no fixed above sleeping in shelters, rough in the street or in building.
There is lots of evidence of rough sleeping in the major cities eg Amsterdam, Utrecht, The Hague and Rotterdam.
It is simply false to equate higher taxation in Netherlands with rough sleeping being unknown. There are two false elements to that, which is quite some going.
teamhurtmore - MemberNo it doesn't NW obviously, in the Dutch stats it included people, with no fixed above sleeping in shelters, rough in the street or in building.
So why use that stat to comment on TJ's post about rough sleeping when you know it wasn't actually for rough sleeping?
This is just googling but apparently there are 250 rough sleepers in the 4 main cities of the netherlands- that's 2.2m people. There are 2869 in London, 8.6m. There are more rough sleepers in Ealing than in Amsterdam. To be fair, measures will be different from country to country and the netherlands figures I used are a little older- though were on a downward trend while UK spirals upwards.
(The 4 city figure had reduced from 290 to 250 from 2010 to 2011, while the UK increased 23%. Amsterdam's rough sleeping popularion had halved in 3 years while Ealing's went up 20% last year alone)
The Netherlands also has a trend away from night shelters to supported housing, which we certainly don't, and has increased resourcing for homelessness, targeted prevention, and mental health care. As you say, people think homelessness ia a big problem- so they're trying to do something about it.
The Netherlands does have some imaginative solutions true. But it is 100% incorrect to argue that rough sleeping in Holland is unknown - it isnt, far from it - and there is no evidence to suggest that higher tax rates are the answer - they are not.
TJ has been quite particular with jamabs about being factually correct and so I am sure that he would like to do the same. In this case, he isnt.
P.S. if you are going to google at least use up to date numbers
As you say, people think [b]homelessness[/b] ia a big problem- so they're trying to do something about it.
whats that got to do with rough sleeping? 😉
teamhurtmore - Member
The Netherlands does have some imaginative solutions true. But it is 100% incorrect to argue that rough sleeping in Holland is unknown - it isnt, far from it - and there is no evidence to suggest that higher tax rates are the answer - they are not.TJ has been quite particular with jamabs about being factually correct and so I am sure that he would like to do the same. In this case, he isnt.
P.S. if you are going to google at least use up to date numbers
As you say, people think homelessness ia a big problem- so they're trying to do something about it.
whats that got to do with rough sleeping?
That's a great argument, dispute other people's stats, don't provide any that support your viewpoint, and ignore the trends (no one is pretending that you can ever completely eliminate rough sleeping - for instance I once got really drunk and woke up somewhere on the street in Kensington having accidentally got off the night bus after going down the stairs to make sure I'd swiped my Oyster card).
I can only assume you think fining them will, somehow, work?
"Why are these people not in a hostal ? I assume the council has a few at its disposal"
Surely we can't be far off Peak Jamba?
You assume many things, Jamba. Most of them wrong.
No Phil, I think its a silly idea.
Mrs THM works directly to help, thats a better albeit temporary solution. I raise money for the local organisation that helps them too
teamhurtmore - MemberThe Netherlands does have some imaginative solutions true.
There's very little imaginative about it. Mostly they're just adequately resourcing conventional homelessness programmes, and increased spending while we've cut it.
teamhurtmore - MemberThe Netherlands does have some imaginative solutions true. But it is 100% incorrect to argue that rough sleeping in Holland is unknown
And it's also 100% inaccurate to claim that TJ did this.
teamhurtmore - MemberP.S. if you are going to google at least use up to date numbers
PS I put a very clear caveat on that and explained why it shouldn't undermine the response. None of them are drastically old, and TBF if we had today's figures it's almost certain they'd paint us in an even worse light.
And frankly it's weird that you're now criticising my numbers for their [i]timescales[/i], when you were making your argument with numbers you knew were for [i]something different[/i]. "Well I might have used the percentage of red cars to evidence my argument about rough sleeping, but at least they were the 2016 figures"
teamhurtmore - Memberwhats that got to do with rough sleeping?
Absolutely everything- unless you think they have a lot of people who have homes, rough sleeping for recreational reasons. You can't use figures for homeless to make arguments about rough sleeping as you did, but the core issues of homelessness and rough sleeping are obviously inextricably linked, and unlike us they are acting to improve both. ( 😉 )
Absolutely everything
Make your mind up! But great we agree (finally) as do the Dutch statisticians and citizens. You can take back your earlier points at your convenience. I am glad that we have cleared that up.
Moving on....
(we should really only play the lets make stuff up game on the Indy2 thread)
Thank you northwind for doing a dirty job I won't do