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How many people in mainland UK would give two hoots if Northern Ireland were cut off from the UK?
I wouldn't,but then again I'm not in the UK.
Seems like they get an awful lot of attention.
Would surely make the whole brexit bollocks a lot simpler if Ireland were one unified island.
Fair to say English brexiteers couldn't give a damn on the whole. GFA in pieces, a renewed troubles?
All fine by the faithful.
Seems like they get an awful lot of attention.
It might seem that way to you, but it isn't.
have you had the worst NHS waiting lists in the UK and 2 years of public sector pay freezes on the news every night? Maybe the year on year increase in drug related deaths, or the high illiteracy rates amongst working class Protestants? Or the suicide rate in young men? Possibly the mental health crisis? Lack of abortion facilities, maybe? How about collapse of the hospitality sector.. or it could be the delay in cervical screening? maybe even the pulling of grassroots regeneration funding.
No, probably not. Is it the DUP pantomime that has got you all excited? But hey just cut them loose they are someone else's problem then.
I suspect you may be the perfect example of an uninformed opinion. But that's just me
How many people in mainland UK would give two hoots if Northern Ireland were cut off from the UK?
I care. But then I also care about France, Ireland and 29 other countries being cut off from the UK.
The people of NI choosing to be either British, or Irish, or both seemed a totally agreeable compromise to me. And to those I know that have lived there.
And too much attention?!? Mostly sidelined and ignored. But they’re not the only part of the UK that have had to put up with that for the past 15 years.
I suspect we won't resolve this issue in a thread but it's worth a go.
I've been working over there quite a bit recently, both sides of the border. It's a weird dichotomy in that it's obviously a massive issue and people have died over it but when you are there the border barely registers.
It's clear to me that there shouldn't be a physical border and serves to highlight the mess that is Brexit. We just need less borders and less division. How we get there from here, who knows!!
How many people in mainland UK would give two hoots if Northern Ireland were cut off from the UK?
I do.
They want to be part of the UK and not the EU and we need to respect that.
Like certain areas of mainland Britain, there are vocal halfwits all over. They are not the majority. it doesn’t help that the most nuttery nutters are aligned with the rest of the UK’s current administration. I suspect after the general election they’ll clear off under a burning bush to devour their titivatingly formed turnips.
I’ve family amongst their ranks. Thankfully time’s catching up with them and given their puritanical ways they’ve not managed to procreate. A trait that seems to extrapolate quite well across the province. Truly awful people.
How many people in mainland UK would give two hoots if Northern Ireland were cut off from the UK?
Me. I have a lot of personal history there, a son who was born there and a lot of friends from both communities.
The arguments for/against a united Ireland are deeper, more longstanding and substantial than 'that Brexit bollocks'. Please don't trivialise it.
They want to be part of the UK
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troubles
And not the EU and we need to respect that.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-36614443
EU referendum: Northern Ireland votes to Remain
Has to be sarcasm.. Right?
They want to be part of the UK and not the EU and we need to respect that.
The problem there is that you’re half right.
Most people want to be part of the UK. Many people want to be part of a united Ireland. The majority want to be part of the EU. Most people accept that compromise and working together, within NI and with partners in all directions, is required.
Over 3500 were killed in the Troubles. You don’t care if it potentially happens again?
I suspect you may be the perfect example of an uninformed opinion.
I would 100% agree.
Never paid NI much attention. When I think of the UK, I think of England, Wales and Scotland..... I know it's UK & NI.
There's good stuff too in NI. On education, a friend of mine's children are at a state school with excellent educational attainment, school uniforms, two rugby teams (coached by actual teachers) in every year group, send a boat to Henley every couple of years when they have a good enough crew. You're paying minimum £16k pa per child in GB for that standard I'd guess.
I know it’s UK & NI.
It's the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. NI is part of the UK, but not part of GB.
You’re paying minimum £16k pa per child in GB for that standard I’d guess.
How much they paying in NI?
United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. NI is part of the UK, but not part of GB.
Ah.... It's been a while since I looked at my British passport.
I care about NI functioning politically, economically, and peacefully.
I don’t care whether that’s as part of the UK or a united Ireland.
This kinda where I'm at.
I would 100% agree.
Never paid NI much attention. When I think of the UK, I think of England, Wales and Scotland….. I know it’s UK & NI.
your view actually represents probably a large part of English thinking. “Why do they get special treatment, lots of them want to go anyway. Wouldn’t it be easier if they just ****ed off. After all it’s all a bit complicated and messy over there anyway.”
I appreciate you are not here now, but you were at some point, presumably during the troubles - did you bother to wonder why people who seemed to share an awful lot in common seemed set on murdering each other? Massively simplifying some very complex issues - there’s a large part of NI who view themselves as British and part of the U.K. and don’t want to be part of the Republic of Ireland. There’s religion, politics, monarchies, family heritage, tribalism etc all mixed up in it, with big lumps of resentment.
Previous prime ministers from across parties warned of the risks with Brexit in NI but we’re dismissed by people who probably didn’t even know which ones is Dublin and which is Belfast. The negotiation of the Good Friday agreement is the sort of deal that gives me hope that Gaza might eventually find peace, and we very nearly threw it out with bathwater because England believes it’s exceptional.
France, Ireland and 29 other countries being cut off from the UK.
Im not sure all these countries would agree with you, and might in fact look upon it as all their Christmases have come at once.
How much they paying in NI?
Zero. It's a state school.
I think the challenge of NI to those on the outside, even as local as in another part of the UK, is it just doesn't make sense. By that, I mean I am aware of what the reasons for the conflict are but they seem pretty unfathomable that they are reasons at all. This is especially true I think if you have no faith as pretty much every division that was historically religiously generated seems a bit baffling. My BiL is from NI but from a very middle class family of academics/intellectuals. Not rich by any means but intelligent, well educated and read and aware of a world beyond the borders. A father from the protestant community and a mother from the catholic. Now in his 50s so in theory a child of the troubles, except he claims he isn't. Went to a nice state (catholic) grammar and says from his perspective it was clearly a thing he was acutely aware of but it was actually happening to other, mostly working class, people. That the troubles were mostly the product of education (lack of) and habitual inward looking bigotry. Doesn't mean you don't have to acknowledge it's a thing but it's hard to forgive that level of self inflicted pain regardless of what 'side' they were from.
Whilst the current segregation has little to do with the church anymore, even though its the fundamental root cause, you'd hope in a generation or three as the increasing levels of religious ambivalence or outright atheism becomes the most commonly held position the other divisions will melt away too. Long term, the most logical place for NI in terms of governance is with the rest of the island of Ireland. I hope for their sake they can come to that position naturally. First step is when a non-sectarian political party or parties in coalition gain the majority of votes. For now I guess we're suck with this uncomfortable mess that brexit naused up further.
Seems like they get an awful lot of attention.
The problem is that the NI/Eire "interface" is where the Brexit shit hits the fan.
There is the (still) unresolved paradox of the requirement for open borders between NI and Eire (as enshrined in the Good Friday Agreement) and the requirement for a border between EU Eire and post Brexit UK NI (as required by Brexit).
It was blindingly obvious from the start of the Brexit **** fest that this would be an issue for any arrangement beyond a customs union. But... The City Of London needed to escape tightening EU financial control. In close votes in Parliament, DUP (loyalist NI party) votes could make the difference between carrying Brexit related motions or not, so the gov't threw an absolute shit-ton of money at them and promised the earth in return for their support.
Yay! Brexit done.
Well, nearly - just needed a few tweaks, hence the NI Protocol.
But wait! That doesn't work! - Try the Windsor framework
No! We didn't agree to that! - We need "Safeguarding the Union"
I give it six weeks before we're back to square one.
(I have nothing against anyone in NI or EIRE. The current paradox is entirely a political creation that stirs up deep-seated tribal loyalties.)
There are many things to hate about Brexit, but by far the biggest crime was the casual indifference to the Good Friday Agreement
The Brexiteers didn’t give a flying **** about the hard won peace. Unfortunately for NI the DUP are the most shit-thick bunch of gullible halfwits in political history, who were stupid enough to take Boris Johnson at his word and his ‘magical thinking’ that didn’t survive first contact with reality
I still think the bowler hatted clowns will scupper this latest deal as they have done the previous ones. They just instinctively say NO!! to everything after all. Union flag draped morons that they are
For me ( and I will admit that like most folk in GB my understanding is limited) the mistake was partition in 1921. However we are where we are - we cannot undo the mistakes of the past.
I see a united Ireland as an inevitability in the future. How long is anyone's guess but I am sure it will happen
the unionists are losing their position of privilege and they are hating that. They are used to being the ruling class and being able to discriminate against the catholics
the unionists are losing their position of privilege and they are hating that. They are used to being the ruling class and being able to discriminate against the catholics
Which unionists are these? Ok, some of the older more extreme DUP/TUV voters are....but the real story in NI is how ambivalent younger people are to sectarianism in general. Ask the average 25 year old from either community about renunification and they'll be ".....ehhhhhh, whatever, im more worried about how I'll afford a home".
It's unfair to charactrise 'unionists' as stick in the mud dinosaurs. There's a wide range of people in the unionist community, and its changing fast, becoming far more educated (in terms of % of people with degree), far more progressive (in terms of views on tax, NHS, gay rights etc), less insular and way less tribal in terms of national identity. This is reflected in the decline of the DUP vote, as it doesn't represent the community anymore. Not crazy enough for the headbangers, and waaaaaay out there for normal people. When asked about reunification, sure they'll be a few 'NEVER!', lots of 'NO!', but also very many 'probably not' and the occasional 'would it really be worse than westminster?'.
As I said, this ambivalence cuts both ways. If my eldest uncles / aunts (there are 8, I'm the eldest of the cousins at 40 something, youngest is 16) start banging on reunification in front of my youngest cousins, the cousins make it very clear how cringe they find the whole thing. It probably sounds like being a teenager in the 70s listening to your uncle going on about how you can't trust the germans.
It's far from clear if these demographic changes will result in a reunification vote any time soon as the people most invested in unification or its avoidance are dying out. Literally.
Ta for that. Its good to get insights from folk who are closer to this than me. I guess we often only hear from the ends of the spectrum not the middle?
I did ride thru a unionist housing estate in Lisburn and found it more than a bit unsettling
appreciate you are not here now, but you were at some point, presumably during the troubles – did you bother to wonder why people who seemed to share an awful lot in common seemed set on murdering each other?
Grew up in Essex on the outskirts of London. It all seemed a long way away. Remember being confused as to why one group felt the need to antagonise the other by marching around, never understood why they liked the Dutch king and thought it very odd the guy's voice was always dubbed over.
TBH, I had better things to do as a young teenager than watch the news.
What the headbangers lack in numbers, they make up for in fervour.
T'was ever thus all over the world.
Ask the average 25 year old from either community about renunification and they’ll be “…..ehhhhhh, whatever, im more worried about how I’ll afford a home”.
Its been like that for a while now. I was at uni at the fag end of the troubles before the Good Friday Agreement. There was a large Norn Irish contingent, including my girlfriend at the time and some really good mates. All of them had absolutely zero interest in sectarianism and were over in England to get away from 'the troubles' as they'd just had enough of it all. The GFA came about because most of the Irish population, bar the lunatics, felt the same. The violence had to stop and the talking begin.
And just look what happened? At that time, it would have been absolutely inconceivable that you'd end up with the relationship that 'The Chuckle Brothers' had
Thats why it was always so monumentally depressing to see the ignorance and stupidity of the Brexiteers as they failed completely to understand the priceless achievement of the GFA, not least as it was a Tory PM, John Major, who played such a huge role in delivering it.
Some gammon-faced DUP MP (Sammy Wilson?) stood up in parliament yesterday and did the usual... banged on and on about 'betrayal'. I look at angry dinosaur's like that and how completely out of touch they are from the people they are supposed to represent. Particularly in the face of absolute exasperation felt by pretty much everyone, from all communities, at the lack of a devolved government in Stormont and the huge impact this has had on peoples lives
Who votes for these people?
Grew up in Essex on the outskirts of London. It all seemed a long way away. Remember being confused as to why one group felt the need to antagonise the other by marching around, never understood why they liked the Dutch king and thought it very odd the guy’s voice was always dubbed over.
TBH, I had better things to do as a young teenager than watch the news.
this epitomises the problem of the U.K. in many ways. A I don’t mean this as a criticism of you personally, it’s a societal /political Union issue. It’s not a union of equals and the biggest part of the union has no interest in the problems in the other parts except when it directly impacts them; even if some of the problems are caused or exacerbated by actions taken now, or historically, by the rest of the union. Often the same people who are vocal about it “not being my problem”, upset about extra “privileges of other parts of the country” are the very same people who loudly proclaim that the U.K. is the best country in the world / no way should we break up the union etc. I’m not saying the answer is to break up the Union - but I wish those who argue for it would both explain the upsides (for who) clearly AND bother to understand why there’s discontent in other parts of the country.
By that, I mean I am aware of what the reasons for the conflict are but they seem pretty unfathomable that they are reasons at all. This is especially true I think if you have no faith as pretty much every division that was historically religiously generated seems a bit baffling.
mmm… I think that’s very much the lens “British” politics would like you to see it through. Religion is very significant - but I think it’s wrong to say it was religiously generated. Religion is a convenient label for the factions involved and reinforces the “differences” and makes it easy to get really angry. Such divisions seem to suit religions because when your religion is under challenge it tends to entrench people - keeping the numbers (= funding!) up. I doubt they’d say it out loud but peace is the worst thing for the Churches, even if it’s the best thing for their followers!
They want to be part of the UK and not the EU and we need to respect that.
Who's "they", and when was the vote?
And from a passport perspective they're 'voting' with their feet:
More Irish than UK passports issued in Northern Ireland for first time – The Irish Times
And in the EU Referendum they voted by a majority to Remain.
plenty of unionists (be that with a big or small 'u') getting irish passports, it's a question of pragmatism not a vote for unification.
plenty of unionists (be that with a big or small ‘u’) getting irish passports, it’s a question of pragmatism not a vote for unification.
The word you're looking for is hypocrisy.
While I am reading on here a significant shift in mindset among the Northern Irish population, coupled with a pragmatism about Irish passport holding, I am not sure I believe the forecasts of reunification.
Because to offer Northern Ireland a referendum on leaving the UK will mean that Westminster have to a) approve and b) respond to Scotland looking for round 2....
I would imagine the heat has been taken out of any official push for reunification in that its already happened in all but name on an economic front, giving NI an infinitely preferable arrangement to the rest of the UK.
Ironic that its those waving union flags that have brought that about.
You couldn't make it up
For me ( and I will admit that like most folk in GB my understanding is limited) the mistake was partition in 1921
The mistake was far older than that.
Partition however flawed I think was the best option at the time. As otherwise it would have almost certainly erupted into open war.
Ironic that its those waving union flags that have brought that about.
Lots of online retailers now use the Union Flag as the symbol for just NI (where before Brexit it was for the whole UK)... which has to be a dream come true for some of the DUP types... it's their flag and their flag only in those cases...
NEVER! NEVER!! NEVER!!!
I am not sure I believe the forecasts of reunification
Because to offer Northern Ireland a referendum on leaving the UK will mean that Westminster have to a) approve and b) respond to Scotland looking for round 2
They don't have any choice. The GFA recognises the right to Irish unification if it's agreed to concurrently with referendums (referenda?) on both sides of the border. This is reflected in UK law.
"The Northern Ireland Act 1998 states that “if at any time it appears likely to him that a majority of those voting would express a wish that Northern Ireland should cease to be part of the United Kingdom and form part of a united Ireland”, the Secretary of State shall make an Order in Council enabling a border poll".
It just seems there isn't a clamour for it at the moment, on either side of the border. It would cause huge upheaval and the status quo kind of works, especially because of the relative peace since the GFA. I agree with others above though, that long term it is probably inevitable.
principles rarely survived first contact with the non EU queue at Malaga airport
Right-wing = Entitled
principles rarely survived first contact with the non EU queue at Malaga airport
Bonus points for using an Irish passport while flying in for the Benidorm Orange March.