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In the Sunday Times, David Smith refered to a fascinating paper on North South migration by skill level as part of the explanation for the persistent economic North South divide. Quite an interesting (and no doubt controversial) hypothesis..
Using information on surnames that were northern (including Welsh) or southern in origin in pre-industrial England, in a recent paper we show that the decline of the north is entirely a product of the sorting of migrants by ability into a high-ability south and low-ability north over the last 200 years (Clark and Cummins 2018).
The economic decline of the north of England and Wales has been regarded by many policymakers as a market failure that requires government intervention to correct. Part of the justification for the huge proposed expenditures of HS2, for example, have been the need to revive the economy of the north.
We show using the evidence of surname origins, however, that the decline of the north is purely a product of regional sorting by economic ability, and not the consequence of any market failure. The northern population, given its characteristics, is doing as well as the equivalent population in the south. There is no regional problem requiring solution in England.
One further implication of our study is that there is no evidence in England for significant human capital externalities, as posited by the New Economic Geography. There is no evidence that the productivity or educational attainment of workers of a given inherent characteristic benefits when that worker is located in the high education south as opposed to the low education north.
https://voxeu.org/article/decline-northern-england-1780-2018
I live too far North to understand that.
we show that the decline of the north is entirely a product of the sorting of migrants by ability into a high-ability south and low-ability north over the last 200 years
Isn't that sorting of migrants a result of where the high/low skilled jobs were?
Isn’t that sorting of migrants a result of where the high/low skilled jobs were?
I guess it's self perpetuating, as in more high skill jobs get created by higher ability people thus demanding more high skilled labour.
It always amazes me that when the news is full of immigration stories.
There are no articles on internal migration or its effects.
Certainly from my school a number of the more able students have moved down south.
And the only pupil I know who has started a company ( https://fitnessgenes.com/) has started it in London.
There is also the issue when it comes to taxation, that often the north/midlands/east/west spend the money on raising and educating people where as the SE/london appear to be the area which generates the most income tax. Doh !
All in All the arguments are very similar to international migration, ie brain drain, benefit to host host country etc etc
I live too far North to understand that.
😉
Basically the UK has naturally sorted itself into a high achieving are and a low achieving area and people migrate, according to talent, to their respective best-fit region regardless of where they are born.
From a public policy point of view, what this says is that if you pump extra cash into the North, those who get a skills boost from it will still migrate South, so you can't easily solve the problem by, for example, boosting Northern education budget.
I moved north because I was too stupid to live in London. Simple tasks like using the Tube, drinking lager shandies and buying a one-bedroom flat in Croydon for half a million quid were beyond me. I'm much happier up here. Far less challenging.
Part of the justification for the huge proposed expenditures of HS2, for example, have been the need to revive the economy of the north.
Nothing to do with it. HS2 is to allow Londoners to get quickly into work whilst living where houses are cheap.
At present you can get to London from Preston, Manchester, Liverpool in approx 2 hours. HS2 will knock 10-15 minutes off that. Come on!!!
I guess it’s self perpetuating, as in more high skill jobs get created by higher ability people thus demanding more high skilled labour.
Is there a skills imbalance there? I spend my time dealing with skilled people in skilled industries and there is heaps in the north which is also generating lots of skilled jobs.
What I do see more of is companies refusing to believe that people will move north of London, the moves by the BBC/C4 etc are a start
It always amazes me that when the news is full of immigration stories.
All in All the arguments are very similar to international migration, ie brain drain, benefit to host host country etc etc
Dunno about the news but where I live internal migration is viewed in exactly the same way as international migration. We are building literally thousands of houses in a relatively rural area and those houses are being filled with people from London. (Mainly retired folk.)
If there was a border that could be used to prevent the influx as there is with (say) China there would be massive local support in ending internal migration into my part of the world.
As you say, the arguments are identical.
Norxit?
I'm not sure you can blame migration for what is essentially a problem of globalisation and 'efficiently'.
Globalisation has meant that it's rarely cheap to produce low-value goods in a country with a high value currency which hurts low-skilled workers so can't compete with low-skilled workers in low value currency countries.
'Efficiency' which Westminster LOVES says it's not worth investing £1bn in poor-economic areas because it will have a lower affect that if you invest the same in strong-economic areas. So Heathrow gets a 3rd runway because we somehow accept and expect the travel to the most densely populated corner of the country to fly, further removing traffic from regional airports that are far easier to reach for everyone not in the SE.
As someone says above, it becomes self-fulling, we invest in the SE because there's were the money is, which greater focuses the economy there, which means more people move there for jobs and opportunity, which makes it far more efficient to invest there. It doesn't matter if they're moving from abroad or within the UK.
I think the EU always understood the role they play in globalisation and tried to mitigate it by investing heavily where it was 'inefficient'.
We are heading for a Judge Dredd future. Megacity One is on a few years away.
We are heading for a Judge Dredd future. Megacity One is on a few years away.
Feels like that to me. We need a plague or a war. Preferably both.
Norxit?
I love norx, where do I sign up?
We are heading for a Judge Dredd future. Megacity One is on a few years away.
Really the age of the city should be coming to an end, people don't need a centralised work environment to work and what's the point of being in London/NYC/Tokyo or whatever if you clients are global.
Some fairly big firms are moving out of London because they can't make the rents/wage cost work for them, but it's hard to do - you can't make 50 people in London redundant to employ 50 more in Inverness or whatever so it's happening slowly, doesn't seem to be the trend though. Needs a mindset shift really.
I moved north because I was too stupid to live in London. Simple tasks like using the Tube, drinking lager shandies and buying a one-bedroom flat in Croydon for half a million quid were beyond me. I’m much happier up here. Far less challenging.
I never moved away from the north for the same reasons. I’ve visited London twice and found the whole experience rather depressing. Not enough trees, hills or fellow thickos to socialise with.
Needs a mindset shift really.
This.
I do see it - so many folk heading south to the 'high wages' and high skilled jobs.
I see so many projects at a political level that then prop this up. See things like how much is spent on transport in the SE and London compared with elsewhere, or how much the civic spaces are invested in etc.
There are so many businesses that could be based in greener, happier places that spreads the income and the costs more widely. You can't just up a business and move (or maybe you can BBC and Ch4), but we need to really, really think differently about how we support business to make being outside the crowded, expensive, dirty SE a positive choice, above being able to have meetings in a shorter timescale...
What I do see more of is companies refusing to believe that people will move north of London, the moves by the BBC/C4 etc are a start
possibly, long term, you'll end up with the companies splitting regionally between high value and low value roles / departments, so you haven't really redressed the skills imbalance.
Makes sense to me, I'm from the Lake district and went to uni in Sheffield. But outside of Selafield and maybe Barrow there simply arent the well paid engineering jobs in the NW to let me move back.
I'd move there in a heartbeat if there was a job on offer.
Planning to move to North Yorkshire / Teesside at some point if the stars align to get me off the SE treadmill of wages and houseprices.
Expanding heathrow is a stupid plan, crossrail is a stupid plan, hs2 to birmingham is a stupid plan. The money would have been far better spent on infrastructure north of Crew. As the study says , theres nothing wrong with northerners, it's just a proportion of the skilled ones move south and its enough to make the south exponentially more affluent and expensive and the north poorer.
in a recent paper we show that the decline of the north is entirely a product of the sorting of migrants by ability into a high-ability south and low-ability north over the last 200 years (Clark and Cummins 2018).
"show" must be very different from "prove". Sounds like complete bollocks to me.
Quite an interesting (and no doubt controversial) hypothesis..
Not really (for both) although the level of investment in the North could be challenged.
The issue is the London focus on employment in both government and larger businesses as opposed to innate talent of southerners. HS2 has been attacked for this reason. Just extended the commuter belt.
People go south for jobs (like my parents did). If there was better options in the north they wouldnt have. Move the jobs north and the sorting would go the other way.
I'm a SE refugee, born in London, grew up in Surrey, uni in Sheffield, then worked in London...and resigned and moved back to Sheffield.
No engineering jobs in Sheffield, but got lucky with a safety engineering startup in Nottingham and have been there every since, wages not as much as I'd earn in London, but everything else is that much cheaper that I don't care.
Sometimes I miss London, then I have to travel across it for a flight and remember why I left. It's a great city, as long as you don't have to work in it.
Also, 100ish year old 3 bed detached house with double garage and mancave as a first time buyer, and a mortgage that'll be paid off before I'm 50....
I think the EU always understood the role they play in globalisation and tried to mitigate it by investing heavily where it was ‘inefficient’.
My view, hence regional support and infrastructure grants and subsidies.
But those same people who were on the receiving end of such grants and subsidies chose to refuse to receive them any more.
Regional differences in income/wealth will forever be split between the North and South. Nothing this, the last or the future government of this county will do to re-distribute any wealth vectors when for minimal investment in the South will achieve greater impacts.
HS2 is a vanity project in its concept only, its function is to show the EU and rest of the world that a) we can build some large infrastructure, which we haven’t fulfilled yet (crossrail excluded)
b) play lip service to the North/South transport links by providing overpriced transport for the few who need to get to the North 20mins sooner than current and satisfy the BBC and other Media people a quick in/out within a day solution.
Regarding the migration South, speak to any youngster who sees a career in Financial Services or IT Tech or Media and they will 9/10 times say “no opportunity here in the North, London is exciting and that’s where innovation and career prospects are found”
My personal view is that successive governments have only ever played a small part in the North, pretty much ignored the vast talent pool and skill base because they’ve always assumed talent will migrate thereafter. It’s been proven over generations and vast populations have suffered and been ignored. It’s one main reason the Brexit vote came out the way it did.. millions of dissolutioned people voting against being left behind by a government who doesn’t GAS about them, and there’s nothing to loose..
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/aug/01/transport-spending-gap-london-north-of-england-ippr
North has missed out on £63bn over 10 years due to chronic underfunding, thinktank says
Something like 2/3 of new jobs created in the last 10 years have been in the South East - lots of overseas investment and start-ups have been into London because it attracts talent, not just from within the UK but also overseas. I attended an e-commerce start-up seminar in London about a month ago - over half the people there were not from the UK, but had come here to start their businesses. What people who voted for Brexit don't realise is that it's going to drive away many of these people.
I moved to the South East from Scotland over 30 years ago as a graduate as there were no jobs in Scotland doing the sort of stuff I was interested in. For the last 6 years a key theme of my work was trying to get people in Government to invest in skills in the north, when we got the money we couldn't spend it - the irony being employers in the north weren't interested in investing in skills.
It's weird that people think HS2 is being built to transport Londoners on their northbound commutes into the Midlands rather than getting midlanders into London.
...lots of overseas investment and start-ups have been into London because it attracts talent, not just from within the UK but also overseas. I attended an e-commerce start-up seminar in London about a month ago – over half the people there were not from the UK, but had come here to start their businesses. What people who voted for Brexit don’t realise is that it’s going to drive away many of these people
Funnily enough I reckon that was the primary reason they voted that way. When you see the economic migrants and refugees placed in the northern regions (see Andy Burnham’s point re: numbers in Greater Manchester), contrasted with migration driven investment and skills in the south it’s not difficult to draw a correlation.
"Regional differences in income/wealth will forever be split between the North and South. Nothing this, the last or the future government of this county will do to re-distribute any wealth vectors when for minimal investment in the South will achieve greater impacts"
Shame that's bollocks, the investment isn't minimal. one Trainline costs £15.4 billion building on previous billions of investment, soon to be followed by crossrail 2 at £32 billion .
But good news for Birmingham they are getting some second hand rolling stock https://www.citymetric.com/transport/london-s-gospel-oak-barking-line-might-be-about-lose-all-its-trains-birmingham-4375
Regional differences in income/wealth will forever be split between the North and South
I see plenty of deprivation in the south and abundant wealth in the north, compare Jaywick and Altrincham for example.
Yep and up north I see loads of high value manufacturing jobs, industry that matters and is what the UK is good at, We make Jet engines, understand and sort out nuclear legacy, design fighter jets, build submarines, make metals and more, sell and implement complex software and so much more. The skills I see every day are the ones that mean the northern regions do well
BadlyWiredDog- thanks for making me laugh for the only time today 😆
The way we go on about the north-south divide, you’d think that Britain was huge. How do larger countries manage?
its function is to show the EU and rest of the world that a) we can build some large infrastructure, which we haven’t fulfilled yet (crossrail excluded)
It's function is a fairly simple one, and it's not getting people from London to the regions or vice versa. It's essentially a £50 billion subsidy to the construction industry. There's barely a consultancy or contractor who isn't working on it. If they weren't building HS2 they'd only be spending the cash on more roads, so at least that's something, but there aren't many other redeeming features.
"houses are being filled with people from London. (Mainly retired folk.)"
Actually in fairness I see people saying this in local newspapers near me (wokingham area) generally the people arent FROM london but have lived in london for a few years and are either moving out because
1. They cant afford London
2. Selling flat in London to buy house outside
Sometimes the people "from" london are even from berkshire/home counties but have lived in London for a few years.
When you see the economic migrants and refugees placed in the northern regions (see Andy Burnham’s point re: numbers in Greater Manchester), contrasted with migration driven investment and skills in the south it’s not difficult to draw a correlation.
Not sure there's a difference. People are equally pissed off if a poor Romanian family gets ahead of them in the queue for a council house and the school they hoped their children would go up North or a hot shot Polish Programmer buys a house Surrey and uses up two more places at the local school someone hoped their children would go to. It's the same thing.
Not sure the nationality matters either. I have no idea what nationality the people who live on the 5000 new houses they've built on the fields a trails around me in the last couple of years or what nationality the people in the traffic queues I endured this morning, I just wish there were less of them.
It’s essentially a £50 billion subsidy to the construction industry.
I think this is true. Also the top down planning policy where everywhere is targeted to build a quota of houses. It's as much about Keynesian stimulus as it is about fixing the housing crisis (which could be controlled on the supply side.)
I moved to London cos theres more fit birds here, innit.
Actually in fairness I see people saying this in local newspapers near me (wokingham area) generally the people arent FROM london but have lived in london for a few years and are either moving out because
1. They cant afford London
2. Selling flat in London to buy house outside
Sometimes the people “from” london are even from berkshire/home counties but have lived in London for a few years.
I'm sure that's true in places and to a degree near me, (although typically it does seem to be recently retired people from London who have 30 years of equity at London prices to spend locally). I'm not complaining about that, retired people aren't in front of me in the queue every morning and they're not sending kids to the local schools.
All of which is irrelevant to my point which was that internal migration is an identical 'problem' to international migration even though the papers haven't picked up on it and people acknowledge it as such. If your neighbours are Deer, field mice and Owls and all of a sudden your new neighbours are people living in brick houses the origin of your new neighbour isn't a big concern!
Yep and up north I see loads of high value manufacturing jobs, industry that matters and is what the UK is good at, We make Jet engines, understand and sort out nuclear legacy, design fighter jets, build submarines, make metals and more, sell and implement complex software and so much more. The skills I see every day are the ones that mean the northern regions do well.
The problem is the South does all that, and more. Within spitting distance of me you could be working in financial services, for telecoms giants, making nuclear warheads and developing the next generation of weapons, designing oil refineries and power stations all over the world. or working at Gillette, all within a couple of miles of m4 j11, not spread across an area from Derby to Barrow.
The whole problem is that there are simply more and better jobs in the south. And correcting that isnt going to be quick or cheap.
The way we go on about the north-south divide, you’d think that Britain was huge. How do larger countries manage?
They have similar divides eg North South in Italy (South is poor, North is Rich). Riots in France are supposedly over poorer regions vs richer cities etc etc,
Shame that’s bollocks, the investment isn’t minimal.
Ahh, STW at its finest.
Ya post something tagged with IMO and the following comments proclaim its bollocks.
Have your say, it’s the internet and a free for all opinion portal.
🤷♂️
The current school system is only going to make this work.
It's easier for a teacher to perform in a school with more affluent catchment (I'm talking non-private schooling here).
This means a lot of schools that start "failing" are in poorer areas. The better teachers leave these schools seeking an easier workload driven by working with more able (better supported at home) students. This means a migration of teaching talent from schools in poor areas to schools with affluent surroundings.
This is also having a knock on effect on house prices in those areas as the house prices of "outstanding school" catchments become desirable.
I'm afraid H.G Wells "time machine" may eventually become reality
This means a lot of schools that start “failing” are in poorer areas. The better teachers leave these schools seeking an easier workload driven by working with more able (better supported at home) students. This means a migration of teaching talent from schools in poor areas to schools with affluent surroundings.
I'm sure this is true to a degree but the two failing schools I'm aware of got extra budget and their original teachers were dismissed in large numbers and superb teachers parachuted in. I've been visiting school's recently and the worst school in our area has by far the best staff for exactly that reason. Unfortunately, it's still in a rubbish area packed with bad kids so avoided as far as a possible, but the teachers aren't the problem. Then there's "pupil premium". Christ if we spent as much on our good kids as we do on our bad kids we'd be world leaders in everything. (Ok, I exaggerate.)
The problem is the South does all that, and more. Within spitting distance of me you could be working in financial services, for telecoms giants, making nuclear warheads and developing the next generation of weapons, designing oil refineries and power stations all over the world. or working at Gillette, all within a couple of miles of m4 j11, not spread across an area from Derby to Barrow.
Unfortunately some people who probably only venture north to look at the scenery don't see that there are lots of skilled jobs up here, it's not a wasteland of knuckle draggers hitting things with hammers etc. One guy posted about there being no Engineering jobs in Sheffield!! Must tell the engineers I know over that way.
"All of which is irrelevant to my point which was that internal migration is an identical ‘problem’ to international migration even though the papers haven’t picked up on it and people acknowledge it as such."
yes agreed Im amazed there isnt more of this in local newspapers
No engineering jobs in Sheffield
Eh? Now I've not lived in Sheffield that long (although I'm originally from fairly close by*) but it seems to me there's plenty of engineering jobs here. There's still people making shit out of metal, I know a bloke that makes the tools that make the tools for others to make other shit, and there's still forges making actual metal for people to make shit out of. Ride round town, down the backstreets and look through few roller doors - Milling machines. Swarf. Metal. People making shit**
In Hampshire EVERYONE worked behind a computer***, selling a service basically. Nobody MADE anything!
There's also lots of building going on for then other type of engineer - The Civil Engineer
*My Dad was an engineer. He could (still can probably) make shit out of lumps of metal
** I paid £85 for a rear motorcycle shock spring then discovered there's someone in town that can custom make them for peanuts. Bugger.
*** Don't tell me you're a 'software engineer' because that doesn't wash. You're a computer programmer. Deal with it. 🙂
Unfortunately some people who probably only venture north to look at the scenery don’t see that there are lots of skilled jobs up here, it’s not a wasteland of knuckle draggers hitting things with hammers etc. One guy posted about there being no Engineering jobs in Sheffield!! Must tell the engineers I know over that way.
That was me (my quote and the earlier post about sheffield) if you read back.
Within commuting distance of me in Reading and working in capital projects for petrochems and power there's Bechtel, Jacobs, Fluor, Wood/AMEC/FW, ENI, Kellogg, KBR, Mustang and those are just the contractors, there's the operators as well. Probably 5,000-10,000 process engineering jobs.
In Sheffield there was a BOC plant and the incinerator, or Jacobs if I fancied a commute over to Manchester, so in the tens or hundreds if you include Manchester.
I'm not knocking the North, I'm from there! And I'll be back there working from Christmas till April making a TV show, which is being filmed there because the production company get's a huge tax incentive to work outside the M25. So that model does work.
Eh? Now I’ve not lived in Sheffield that long (although I’m originally from fairly close by*) but it seems to me there’s plenty of engineering jobs here. There’s still people making shit out of metal, I know a bloke that makes the tools that make the tools for others to make other shit, and there’s still forges making actual metal for people to make shit out of. Ride round town, down the backstreets and look through few roller doors – Milling machines. Swarf. Metal. People making shit**
In Hampshire EVERYONE worked behind a computer, selling a service basically. Nobody MADE anything!
Not knocking anyone who works with metal (even though you're knocking those of us who work behind a computer), but I'm referring to the the sort of engineering that involves letters after your name and sitting at a computer, not machinist, toolmaking or technician jobs.
Don’t tell me you’re a ‘software engineer’ because that doesn’t wash. You’re a computer programmer. Deal with it. 🙂
No, and thanks for the condescending tone, the most recent thing that got built and I designed parts of was this (which is ironically up north).
Don’t tell me you’re a ‘software engineer’ because that doesn’t wash. You’re a computer programmer. Deal with it.
So why isn't software engineering?
So why isn’t software engineering?
And what if I* was writing code <span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">to simulate what's going on inside that plant? </span><span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">I f****** hate fortran.</span>
Like Brexit, say the word engineering and some people want us to go back to the 1880's and make only stuff from cast iron because that (along with going blind and getting rumatoid arthritis from working in a forge) was somehow better.
When I look at jobs back in the UK, I would say 75% or more are based in the south east shit hole.
I recall seeing a program on the north south divide that stated 10 years after German re-unification, Germany had achieved greater wealth parity between the old east and west, than existed between the north and south in the UK. And lets face it their starting point was much worse, so it can be done, it just needs political will rather than just veneer projects.
First thing they should do is move parliament to an industrial estate in Runcorn, let the MP's see what their policies actually create. Maybe have a moving parliament that can only be located in one region for 20 years then move it on, and make sure it is only located in one of the poorest few regions of the nation.
In Hampshire EVERYONE worked behind a computer***, selling a service basically. Nobody MADE anything!
they created value and income though, probably without being subsidised either.
don't get me wrong its great to see manufacturing and have even spent a day shooting at Forgemasters and was absolutely blown away watching them squash massive glowing hot pieces of metal in that big hydraulic press they have but there is a lot more to this country than mass manufacturing, in fact i would say that trying to pursue that area is not sustainable but smarter more specialist industries is what we are good at. (all over the country)
When I look at jobs back in the UK, I would say 75% or more are based in the south east shit hole.
just for balance. ‘many parts of the north are a shit hole’*
* having pointed out the fact that the south, east and west had deprivation too it was only fair to remind those that like to bash the lower half of the country it’s not all wonderful up there.
Germany had achieved greater wealth parity between the old east and west, than existed between the north and south in the UK
Was digging for some data on this and came across some great articles on just how hard it is to figure these things out..
https://medium.economist.com/the-challenges-of-charting-regional-inequality-a9376718348
The Economist's best attempt..
There are parts all over the UK where the window cleaner does his round with a sander, not explicitly the North. And I believe Cornwall is the most deprived county? Could be wrong.
And I believe Cornwall is the most deprived county? Could be wrong
I think that's based on cost of living? I.e. it's relatively affluent but house prices are high and everything is a few percent more expensive than the rest of the UK. Whereas Scotland might have similar incomes and costs to buy stuff but cheap housing. And "The North" has lower incomes, lower prices and lower housing costs. (facts guesstimated).
Or to put it another way, building projects like HS2 may actually make Manchester "poorer" as the cost of living rises in proportion to the disposable income of people moving there from London but if it doesn't bring jobs with it then the local economy won't keep up.
And I believe Cornwall is the most deprived county?
Limited jobs and large numbers of holiday homes pushing prices up.
North/South divide is slightly misleading. Its really more SouthEast/North divide with other areas forgotten about.
Can't have always been the case. My great grandad was born in Bowe and was nicknamed Cock(ney). Him and his family moved slowly north over a few years through employment building reservoirs until he ended up in the Worth Valley and stayed there. My mum likes to think of herself as a proper Yorkshire lass and she doesn't have much time for that there London, but part of her heritage is as London as you can get. Perhaps we need lots of new infrastructure building in the north to tempt people away from the south east again.
They come down here, steal our jobs and all the can do is moan about the place... Sheesh...
Carefull Binners. PP might exile you down here as you only use a computer not real crayons so don't actually make anything 😉
*** Don’t tell me you’re a ‘software engineer’ because that doesn’t wash. You’re a computer programmer. Deal with it.
I've already dealt with it thanks.
I've got an (electronic) engineering degree, of which almost all the final year was about software engineering.
We get our programming done in India.
I would definitely consider moving somewhere where there are proper hills and more access to outdoorsy activities, but I live in north London close to were I work and don't want a massive commute.
There aren't enough jobs outside of London in what I do. The big proportion of all the main corporate offices of big companies are in London. Obviously they do exist in our others but they're more spread out and employment is more challenged as there is less competition
*My Dad was an engineer. He could (still can probably) make shit out of lumps of metal
** I paid £85 for a rear motorcycle shock spring then discovered there’s someone in town that can custom make them for peanuts. Bugger.
*** Don’t tell me you’re a ‘software engineer’ because that doesn’t wash. You’re a computer programmer. Deal with it. 🙂
Making things from metal isn't always engineering, it's fabricating. Engineering is design, it's about designing solutions to problems.
The majority of engineers (real engineers, not technicians, not operators) these days will also be coders. More than half of what you might want to do for a job has never been done before, and so tools that might allow you to do it, either don't exist or don't work together...sometimes your job is to do that first in order to address the real problem.
Making a spring isn't engineering. Designing the suspension that works with that spring IS.
Making a spring isn’t engineering.
You just push a button on a machine these days, they churn out hundreds per hour..
Designing that machine is a different matter...
I’ve visited London twice and found the whole experience rather depressing.
In the interests of balance I've found the north depressing more than twice. That's not what this thread is about, though. It's about economic migration and the long history thereof.
In the interests of balance I’ve found the north depressing more than twice
I visited Blythe Valley Borough Council several times in the 90's. Whereas Mitch the Highways Inspector was a hilarious caricature of Jimmy Nail, his boss was the most miserable person I've ever met, who took every opportunity to ensure I knew how much he despised my southern-ness in all aspects but mostly my wages of which he knew nothing about.
It was always cold too.
only fair to remind those that like to bash the lower half of the country it’s not all wonderful up there
Fair point.
But here is the Joker card, the get out of jail free, the argument winning card.
Our natural capital trump's your cash, every time.
Is he up there looking for a shop or a cinema or something?;)
Why do people want to move to the SE anyway? Too many people cramming into an area to get paid more more to pay more for services, goods and houses. Everyone is miserable, everyone moans about it but when challenged they just say “well I can’t get this sort of job in the north” - diddums princess, suck up your latte and quit whining.
Yes you’re right everyone who lives in the South East is miserable about that specific fact. The 8 1/2 million residents of London alone all hate it and want to move to Middlesbrough as soon as possible
Can’t we just put a massive magnet in the channel so that north moves down south? Would that help?
SE is where you go to get stabbed and priced out of housing by the Russian mafia and Chinese investors. Up North it’s grim and you marry your sister. The North West is where it’s at.
Incest and murder aside in the 80’s everyone I knew moved south for work as my home town was a desolate ruin. After 20 odd years I came back from various places and economically wise I’m sure I will never earn what the SE could pay but I own my own house and take lots of holidays and get to ride or climb in Wales or the Lakes probably 2 weekends out of 4. Incomings is all relative to outgoings in my world. I know plenty of people with interesting well paid jobs up North. Most people I know who live in London seem to do stuff in offices that I don’t fully understand or I suppose don’t really care about. The SE or more specifically London is an interesting bubble to visit once in a while but is there is nothing I want that I can’t get up North. It certainly has more money and always will but there’s more to life than money for me. Also Im not super career driven so probably makes my choices easier.
everyone moans about it but when challenged
i would moan too. i mean who wants to be challenged why you chose to live somewhere when the answer is that you like it there.
i’m amazed that people would willingly reside in Hull, but each to their own, there must be something going for it or people wouldn’t choose to live there.
Charlie: the moaning mostly seems to be from chippy northerners because those high skill/high pay jobs aren't available in sufficient numbers in the North. Apparently that's all the government's fault, and making it easier for northern workers and businesses to get a slice of that money by improving transport links is a terrible idea.
Suck it up, princess. Your Instagram opportunities on sheep-scattered hills should make up for it, or something.
Can’t we just put a massive magnet in the channel so that north moves down south? Would that help?
Wouldn’t work.
We dug out all the iron ore and closed all the steelworks years ago.
Chippy northerners?
It'd be pointless being chippy in the south as you don't have gravy or curry sauce 😛
Frankly, you're little better than animals
With regards to the OP, when I finished uni it seemed that every grad scheme I looked at was based in or near London. I never had any desire to move here, but you follow the opportunities.
I would definitely consider moving somewhere where there are proper hills and more access to outdoorsy activities, but I live in north London close to were I work and don’t want a massive commute.
There aren’t enough jobs outside of London in what I do.
Echoes my experience. Im based SW London, I can't MTB after work, but I can get to Surrey Hills or Wales every weekend. I would happily move North or West, but the majority of my industry is London or midlands, and Coventry doesn't appeal.
I could move away from London to do something else, but I enjoy the work, so I'll put up with renting in my 30s.
SE is where you go to get stabbed and priced out of housing by the Russian mafia and Chinese investors. Up North it’s [s] grim and you marry your sister. The North West is where it’s at.[/s] where you just get stabbed.
The immediate difference is the order in which you're offered a cup of tea. Down south theres all the formalities then tea, up north you can barely get in the building for a meeting without being offered tea by everyone you meet.
Except Rochdale, there they sent me away to move my car off the on street parking to the compound which resembled fort knox!
Ah, Rochdale. The most damaged, broken place I've ever seen.
I wonder if gross under funding, corrupt politicians, appalling under investment and the removal of pretty much every single opportunity for well paid employment has had anything to do with that?