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Years ago I had a pertex pile shirt, I think it was made by Survival Aids and basically an olive green top. It wasn't much of a looker but it was excellent as a warm layer for watersports etc in cold cold conditions.
Anyway it died and I tried to replace it but they no longer existed, the nearest thing was a buffalo top but it was way too thick and nowhere near as good a fit. I sold it in the end, disappointed
So now I'm on the hunt again but there seems to be limited options in the pile and pertex department. There's a few pertex and micofleece but I don't think they will work as well when damp in my experience
Does anyone know a make that still does something similar?
Also the price of buffalo stuff!
Google 'fibre pile' jackets, are these what you're after?
Not sure, but a more modern alternative would be shelled polartech alpha - basically a similar concept but with a much lighter directional insulation, so more useful outside of the winter season.
Montane did their Hydrogen smock and jacket but looks like they discontinued it, have you looked at the Rab Vapourise range? I think Norrona also do a similar concept in some of their jackets, but if the price of Buffalo shocked you then maybe steer clear of their website ?
Montane and alpkit do pile pertex tops, they are lighter than the buffalo ones
Stealth ad - if you are a size 44 I have a Buffalo shirt for sale < half price of a new one.
I've had the Alpkit version for 12 months - Its a great bit of kit from my perspective but full disclosure - I've never had the Buffalo original so can't comment which is 'better'....
You can't beat HH pile. Way better than the stuff Buffalo use. Use it next to your skin with a wind proof layer on top. Much more flexible. You can "proof" the windproof outer to repel water and as it doesn't get sweaty it doesn't need washing (out). There is other pile in the same vein as HH. Rab did one and there is even a Mountain Warehouse jumper out there. Or Dutch/German ex army stuff on Ebay.
I'm a big fan of Rab Vapour Rise (and the discontinued Montane versions). Mountain Equipment also do one but I've never seen one.
Various 'weights' of liner and outer layer. IIRC a Guide is warmest, Summit next and then the Light is running version.
I live in my light version, and I'm saving for a winter weight one with bigger pile.
As ex-Buffalo and ex-Montane Pile & Pertex wearer, these are the higher performing and more modern version then the old Buffalo I lived in...
Buffalo tops, I bought one after talking to a fisherman in Ullapool one winter
He said make shure its a good almost tight fit, as you don't need to wear anything else. Tall and slim with long arms nothing fitted just right, back then the did made to measure, Still have it must be 20 odd years old it's my first choice winter top.
Army surplus softie/thermal smock is the budget choice. Available in fetching olive green or desert beige.
Lidls did a pile hoodie for £12.99
Expecting it to be really cold, I wore one under a paramo Torres jacket.
oh Lordy, the dehydration!
Army surplus softie/thermal smock is the budget choice. Available in fetching olive green or desert beige.
Yeah, I’ve got one of those, actually gave it a wash the other day - very practical lightweight pullover smock top for general purpose wear. I’ve got one of the original Buffalo MTB windshirts, a bit short now, I had the crotch strap taken off and properly hemmed round, it was too uncomfortable with a buckle right where all your weight sits on your saddle!
Still useable as an ultralight wind top though, plus it’s got bright yellow and reflective cloth strips sewn on.
I’ve also got a Buffalo Special 6, which I lived in through the winter for several years while I was working outdoors for ten hours a day, I had a HH Lifa underneath, and a £20 Peter Storm ‘waterproof’ over the top to keep the worst of the weather off, worked perfectly for me, but I can see it being much too thick and hot for anything energetic!
I’d like a proper Buffalo equivalent of the army surplus top - thicker Pertex, and a similar lightweight micro-fleece inner layer, like Pertex 100; I’ve got a Jack Wolfskin Pertex 100 tee shirt, it’s brilliant, light and comfortable with just enough ‘fluffiness’ for a bit extra warmth, and I wish I’d bought several more, but they’re impossible to find, all that’s available are smooth synthetic materials like a slick cotton, which is fine in warm weather, but sod-all use in cold weather.
The mil-surplus ‘Buffalo’ works really well with the Wolfskin Polartec 100 tee underneath, although there’s a slight ‘clingy’ quality with the two fleeces, but thinking about it, it might work well with the Polartec tee under a HH Lifa then the faux Buffalo on top, lots of breathability, and fairly warm when moving around a lot.
Now it’s getting cooler, I’ll give it a try, see how it feels.
Reminds me, I’ve been meaning to get another of the Mil-surplus tops to spread the wearing and washing load out.
A quick search turned up someone called onlyarmysurplus.co.uk, who do those Pertex fleece-lined tops in black, for £45, so I’ve ordered one - won’t show mucky marks as much as the olive one.
What's the difference between a buffalo and a bison?
I think Bison made for a better rug and Buffalo made for a better coat.
Mountain Equipment Kenisis is excellent if you can find one. I think they discontinued them this year - new one in the works.
I've got the Montane Hydrogen and the extreme jacket. Both are my go to winter jackets if I'm doing a big hike . If it's just a doggo walk round the block then I use a regular waterproof jacket. The hydrogen gets more use as it's the perfect thickness/weight.
I bought Montane as they came with hoods where Buffalo they are extra.
Membrane waterproofs don't work for me as I walk quickly and generate a lot of heat.
This probably doesn't help but I bought the Alpkit one back in the spring when they were flogging them off cheap. Seems well made, nice long arms, the sizing comes up quite big IMO.
I bought it because it's a bit lighter on pile so supposed to be more useable in the UK than some of the thicker ones (e.g. Montane extreme)
Conditions have only been grim and cold enough to use on 1 walk so far!
I'm looking forward to giving it a proper go as the autumn progresses
I've got a Montane Extreme smock and I love it for 'Proper' Winter walking. My OH has a 20-odd year old Buffalo which is still like new. I'd say they probably perform very similarly but the Montane is cheaper, of course.
Probably a dumb question but ... if you wear a Buffalo or Buffalo-alike next to your skin, how do you regulate your temperature? Seems like if you open a zip you will get very cold skin in that immediate area and the rest will stay hot ??
I've got a Montane Extreme smock and a jacket version. The jacket was about £70 from sportshoes.com. Like them both, but the quality of the jacket isn't as good, it feels like they've made a special run to hit a cheaper price point, but obviously I have no evidence! The pertex on the smock feels different, and it has some extra details like an extra popper to fold back the face bit of the hood. They both work the same, with the obvious exception of being able to dump heat with the full length zip.
Still probably too thick for the OP.
Love the idea of a made in Sheffield proper Buffalo one, but at a third of the price it's hard to justify, especially as I tend to abuse them as they're so much more hard wearing than lightweight down etc
Just remembered, the 'softie' is the full zip, reversible and very warm/thick pile army thermal thing. Iirc it got replaced by the pcs thermal smock which is a little more lightweight. Both great for the price. If olive is OK. Or black for the smock as count says above.
Probably a dumb question but … if you wear a Buffalo or Buffalo-alike next to your skin, how do you regulate your temperature? Seems like if you open a zip you will get very cold skin in that immediate area and the rest will stay hot ??
One of the reasons I moved away from Buffalo. That and the poor cut, rubbish colours, lack of zip covers so you got drafts, silly collar designs etc...
I much prefer a few layers with pit zips or venting pockets.
The Vapour Rise jackets address all the Buffalo issues of cut, crap colours, poor detailing, zip covers etc. I also find they dry and breathe better.
After reading this thread I realised I had a vapour rise jacket that I had not worn for years. Tried it out this am with a thin t-shirt, was ace.
My black smock arrived about an hour ago, got it on now, and it’s excellent! I ordered an XL, I’m wearing a basic tank top underneath and it’s just the right size, I reckon a Helly Lifa would be ideal. The fleece is like a Polartec, smooth finish but thicker than the olive green one I have, the outer shell is ripstop, quite soft but more substantial than the green one, and all the zips have windproof outers.
There’s a hood tucked into the collar, and the collar comes up higher than the green one. It’s sold as SAS issue, and it has desert brown Union flags on the sleeves, I have no idea whether it’s actually army issue, and I’ll probably take the flags off, but it’s a superb jacket for the money, and I’m chuffed to bits with it. Considering how much Buffalo jackets cost, this has all the same features for a fraction of the price. I might even get another, larger XXL so I could wear it over a thicker under layer, but tbh, I reckon it’s good for pretty much anything we get through an average British year, even summer, if this year’s anything to go by.
Probably a dumb question but … if you wear a Buffalo or Buffalo-alike next to your skin, how do you regulate your temperature? Seems like if you open a zip you will get very cold skin in that immediate area and the rest will stay hot ??
One of the reasons I moved away from Buffalo. That and the poor cut, rubbish colours, lack of zip covers so you got drafts, silly collar designs etc…I much prefer a few layers with pit zips or venting pockets.
Buffalo jackets have full length side zips, as does the one I’m wearing, with zip-pulls at both ends, and a Velcro tab across the bottom, so all you need to do is pull the top zip down a bit to get some ventilation if you’re a bit warm, and you could also unzip the kangaroo pocket zips either side, and pull the neck zip down a bit - there’s plenty of ways to vent them. I was wearing my Special 6 jacket for 10 hours a day, and I never got too hot, unlike the sweatbox high-viz jacket I was issued with, horrible thing that it was. I just put a high-viz vest over the top of my Buffalo.
My black smock arrived about an hour ago, got it on now, and it’s excellent!
From the pics, it looks as though it's pretty flappy, is that right?
Looks very flappy, plus it hasn't got a full zip, so at the end of your shitty mid-winter ride you're having to pull it over your head to take off. Instant design fail from me, but realise it's not really for mountain biking.
Buffalo jackets have full length side zips, as does the one I’m wearing, with zip-pulls at both ends, and a Velcro tab across the bottom, so all you need to do is pull the top zip down a bit to get some ventilation
My point was that if you're wearing it next to bare skin, the bit of naked flesh that is exposed when you open a zip will be frostbitten while the rest of your body remains too hot.
My black smock arrived about an hour ago
Yeah, I bought one too off the back of this thread, which the postie has just dropped off. Ideal for the money, I'm impressed. Maybe a bit warm for anything too energetic outside, unless in very cold weather? The zipped vents under the arms and on the sides should help a bit with that though. But if you're not hill bashing or cycling - just going for a walk on a cool or windy day perhaps or anything where you are static, it seems ideal. Thanks for the tip!
but realise it’s not really for mountain biking.
You'd boil alive if you went mountain biking in it.
Montane have made a few Extreme smocks again. Initially they were only for sale in the factory shop but now available online too.
From the pics, it looks as though it’s pretty flappy, is that right?
Just remembered this thread, and no, it’s not flappy, it’s fairly close fitting, but not too tight. It seems that they don’t do an XXL, which isn’t really a problem, I’ve been wearing it quite a lot, with either a Lifa or my Jack Wolfskin polarfleece tee shirt underneath. It’s ideal for the current weather conditions, other than in torrential rain, which requires something a bit more substantial. I’ve been wearing the Buffalo as well, it’s longer, as the Special 6 name suggests, it was better for the colder days when it got windy.
The ‘military’ one I reckon would be ok on a bike, it’s windproof, but not waterproof so properly breathable, and with something like a merino base layer probably just about right. I might find out one day if I get my act together and get the s/s out of the shed, bleed the brakes and spend a stupid amount of money on a new pair of tubeless tyres - I reckon the ones fitted are past their best now,
Digging around the interwebz, it seems that the PCS smocks in black are available in XXL and XXXL, but nobody seems to have the larger sizes in stock. I have found this one that’s pretty much identical, it’s got a waterproof Teflon coating, but I doubt it’s durability over time - best treat it as just windproof like a Buffalo. Decent price, too. I’d just like the extra space to be able to pull it on over an extra layer, like a down gilet if the weather turns without it being too tight.
https://www.militarykit.com/products/highlander-halo-tactical-smock-black?variant=43113563553963
There’s a few pertex and micofleece but I don’t think they will work as well when damp in my experience
That's because pile is basically hydrophobic, so water just runs out of it - fleece holds more ime.
The main issues with pile-Pertex are that it's really warm, even with venting and is generally available in iterations which are cut like a sack. The classic Buffalo hasn't evolved since the 1980s, which is fine if you still think that Ronhill Tracksters, Petzl Zoom head-torches, Trangias, Karrimor Alpiniste packs, Mountain Technology Vertige axes, original Scarpa Mantas, Koflach placcy boots etc, are still cutting edge kit.
It's also relatively heavy and bulky, which makes it a wear or abandon choice on anything other than deep winter, emphatically sub-zero days. Great if you move slowly, run cool and don't mind looking like a barrel with fluffy edges.
Anyway, in the right conditions it works great, but it's a technology that's in desperate need of a re-think in terms of design and cut. Polartec Alpha does most of the same thing with reduced weight and bulk and is brilliant. A while back, Patagucci had a few high loft fleece-lined garments that did pretty much the same gig too.
It would have to be insanely cold for me to even consider wearing pile-Pertex on a bike, like Iditarod cold. YMMV
The classic Buffalo hasn’t evolved since the 1980s, which is fine if you still think that Ronhill Tracksters, Petzl Zoom head-torches, Trangias, Karrimor Alpiniste packs, Mountain Technology Vertige axes, original Scarpa Mantas, Koflach placcy boots etc, are still cutting edge kit.
You’ve met my mate Andy then?
It would have to be insanely cold for me to even consider wearing pile-Pertex on a bike, like Iditarod cold.
Same, I bought a buffalo cycling shirt back in the early 'noughts and anything above the gentlest of speeds, it was like being in a Turkish bath, and this was the relatively easy going Chilterns, on anything with proper sustained climbing , I'd probably pass out.
You’ve met my mate Andy then?
Not a for a while... I'm guessing he aspires to the Montane Eight smock, a sort of pile-Pertex on steroids 'bleeding edge' - their words - garment that was like a sort of barely wearable sauna. Short of a full-on expedition down jacket, it's the warmest thing I've ever encountered. The sheer bulk of the insulation meant that it was 'wearable' in the sense that you could get it on rather than actually move in it. I still have one somewhere, I think.
It even came with it's own, integrated polar beard...
see: https://montane.com/pages/history
An update to this thread, I bought one of the Highlander Halo jackets, and I’ve relegated the other one to carrying in the car, as an emergency light jacket if the weather turns cool and windy.
The Halo is an XXL, which lets me put something a bit thicker on underneath, it doesn’t feel as restrictive, and it’s really well made. The side zips are a bit shorter, and it has separate pit zips, so a bit more convenient to control ventilation.
It’s now my go-to jacket when I’m outdoors, it’s a bit longer, too, and is fantastic value for money. It’s got a light waterproof/water resistant coating, just enough if it’s drizzly.
No logos or branding or anything, very understated, and just right for the cool weather we’ve got at the moment.
A quick update; the Highlander top I bought is excellent, I’ve been wearing it a lot recently, windy, cool damp and drizzling weather, and it’s spot-on. It fits well over a base layer and a Polartec tee shirt, it’s draft-proof because the zips have a waterproof outer, and damp drizzle doesn’t seem to soak through, it sits on the outer layer and it’s nice and dry inside.
An absolute steal for the money.
Getting a little older and having lost weight I have started feeling the cold a little more than I used to. So I bought a Rab VR last year and I love it, I have not used it whilst cycling though, only out walking and hiking. It is now my go to jacket when its cold enough, for me that is anything 5 degrees or lower.
Yes I've been using my Alpkit one a bit. Too warm if it's more than 5 degrees, but brilliant in any temperature under that. Ive been using it with a base layer.
Best thing is that it's so easy to adjust to dump heat. This was invaluable on a 2 day backpacking trip I did earlier in the month. Meant I didn't have to keep taking the pack off.
I've not tried it cycling yet, but I think it would need to be really cold for that.
I'm going to defend my Buffalo shirt albeit in a contradictory fashion. I've had mine for 30 years now and it could easily be a lifetime item, providing I don't pile on the pounds. Now partly this is due to it not getting a lot of use, it's very much a winter only garment for me. Having said that, in recent years I've worn it on the bike which I never thought I'd do. Now I don't know if that is because as I approach 50 I feel the cold a bit more or if it was because I wore it in weather where I really should've stayed at home. I mean proper wet and cold winter night rides. Over the years I've worn it on its own and with a short sleeved base layer and I can't say I've noticed any advantage in wearing it on its own so it's more practical to have a base layer on. I'm average height and weight and mine is a nice snug fit, I don't find it boxy or basic but I don't know if they've changed the cut over the years. It appears to me when I see other owners that theirs look too big, maybe they don't understand the concept and thought they'd wear it over the top of a fleece and in those situations they do look big and unflattering. I've never had frostbite from opening the zips up and I find it a simple and effective way of regulating your temperature. I was out in the hills last week and if I'd worn my buffalo I wouldn't have had to put on or take off layers, just adjusting the zips would've done the job.
It's quite refreshing in this day and age to have a company that isn't swayed by fashion, it's amazing that they're still going really when most companies business models are based on you buying a new one every two or three years, or buying something you don't really need, or because it's not the right colour. I looked at the Rab stuff but I'm slightly put off by all the different variations, what's the difference between a Borealis and a Vapour Rise? Does it matter? They'll be on sale somewhere so you can just buy both and add to the worlds stockpile of unused fashion or sell it on and keep the wheels of commerce spinning. I'm as bad as anyone but I'm trying to be better. I have a Rab windshirt which has all the breathability of bin bags but it does have a pocket so that's in its favour and if I'm not exerting myself it does the job and it does pack small. I also have a ME waterproof which never fills me with confidence that it'll actually keep the rain out, it's pretty boxy and it feels like a crisp packet and it might just split or tear at any moment. And here's the thing, both of these items were bought after recommendations on here, so that shows you what that's worth.
Sorry about the stream of consciousness rant but I'm feeling a bit fed up with the ways of the world at the moment and this talk of Buffalo shirts has me yearning for simpler times and emptier wardrobes.
Does that Highlander smock use fleecy stuff throughout, or are the arms a quilted-type material?
I looked at the Rab stuff but I’m slightly put off by all the different variations, what’s the difference between a Borealis and a Vapour Rise?
Borealis doesn't have a lining, it's just a stretch woven softshell fabric, unlike the VR which are a variation on Buffalo type jackets.
I have a Rab windshirt which has all the breathability of bin bags
Borealis is very different, It's super breathable compared to pertex or similar tight weave windshirts. Quite often use it with just a Brynje mesh or thin baselayer when it's too warm for my Montane Alpha (modern pertex pile)
Does that Highlander smock use fleecy stuff throughout, or are the arms a quilted-type material?
It’s a fine fleece pile throughout, not the thicker Sherpa style fleece, with ripstop Pertex. For £45 squids it’s a great jacket, I’m really happy with it. It does have a hood folded into the collar, but it’s rare that I bother with hoods on jackets, I’d rather just wear a hat, but at least the option is there.
I just looked at the prices of buffalo, the mitts are now sixty ****ing quid! I think mine were about nine.
They are pretty good, but bloody hell
Does that Highlander smock use fleecy stuff throughout, or are the arms a quilted-type material?
I was going to try to take a photo of it turned inside out, but it’s difficult to actually see details, but effectively it looks like a regular fleece jacket when you do, apart from being a pullover smock. It’s my go-to jacket now, I’ve got it by the side of me ready to go out a bit later, excellent bit of kit, quite honestly.
I looked at the Rab stuff but I’m slightly put off by all the different variations, what’s the difference between a Borealis and a Vapour Rise?
Vapour rise all have some kind of 'thermal and wicking' lining.
There is light ('Ridgeline'), medium ('Alpine Light') and heavy ('Summit' - closest to a Buffalo in my view). A few older 'Guide' Jackets which seem halfway between Summit and Alpine Light). See here for best description/comparison with pics: https://www.ukhillwalking.com/gear/clothing/softshell/rabs_new_vapour-rise_range-13037
I have an Alpine Light on the back of my chair now, it is the jacket I wear the vast majority of the time. Light pertex woven outer - it is like 98% windproof, only the heaviest of blasts gets past it. Lining is akin to a thick baselayer with '3d' surface to it or various weights and weaves depending where on the jacket it is. It is thin - but when moving I find it with a baselayer is great down to about freezing, I add a wee thin fleece if about freezing or lower, but you have to be moving to keep warm. Silly breathable. Shrugs off showers if I keep spraying with DWR.
Mrs_OAB has a VR Summit and a Montane version - outer is the same, has handwarmer pockets, but the lining is a fluffy high loft fleece. Properly warm, even on winter icy days, particularly when moving, but really breathable still (so much more than a usual puffy jacket or hardshell)...
The only bit I do not like about mine is the lack of handwarmer pockets...