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Something occurred to me today. If I were to go out in a skirt, I’d no doubt get looks and people thinking ‘zomg it’s a bloke in a skirt’. UNLESS I were in Scotland and the skirt were tartan, then noone would bar an eyelid.
Madness, isn’t it?
You'd be surprised. I frequently go out in tom-girl mode. Clearly male, possibly even stubble but wearing a skirt. Probably just knee length, denim or earth colours. Ten years ago I got a lot of "looks", comments, heckles. For the last five years nothing. No one gives a damn anymore. That's primarily in Scotland, but in South Wales, Lake District, Peak District, Yorkshire, Shropshire, Cornwall, Norfolk, Herefordshire.
I wouldn't go to a flat roofed pub in Mosside in a skirt, but then I wouldn't in jeans and a t shirt either.
If you want to wear a skirt, then wear a skirt. No one cares now. We are making progress.
I was thinking more to prevent any surprises later on.
I'm sure we can come up with a solution to this that doesn't involve upsetting anyone.
The “100x” was hyperbole from a parent trying to help us understand why it matters to their child. Being called something you ask others not to call you, repeatedly, can be very difficult for some people to put up with. And why should they? Let’s just adapt and embrace them.
EDIT: this reply makes little to no sense now the post it related to has been deleted, oh well
If you want to wear a skirt, then wear a skirt.
I have considered it, to be honest, but my issues aren't with skirts really, more like having an estranged relationship with whatever part of me would be at all flamboyant wearing anything even men's clothes.
it doesn’t even have to be tartan. I’ve long fancied a leather kilt.
There you go, and a nifty pocket to hold your beer money 😀
Yep - I really like that
I’d wear that. With long wool socks and some sturdy boots.
I like the look of them and fancy one for the festivals, not so great when it comes to crowd surfing though 🤔 poor public...🤣
That kilt looks ace and very comfy. I’d have to think very hard about how I sat and not do the usual flump. There’d be public humiliation and possibly signing of a register if I forgot!
There's also something called chub rub that would probably affect me.
Tuck it into your waistband - problem solved.
I’ve already posted much the same as you, that many people will feel they have male and female elements to them, but are happy to go along with he or she, because they are predominately one more that the other. This thread is about the small number of people who that doesn’t work for. Is that 1%? Who knows. We can adapt for them though.
Well I guess originally it was about some semi-famous singer ... but perhaps its drifted thanks to input from many especially boriselbrus.
What seems to be emerging is not so much different IMHO, it's not the pronoun per-se but what the pronoun represents?
I have no problem using whatever pronoun someone prefers given suitable prompting and reminders but I feel this is really just skipping over the actual issue of this manufactured term of "gender".
It seems to me that just as we were kicking out the outdated notions of people of a biological sex having defined characteristics we then splinter into "except gay's who have some others they are expected to conform to" and then we go back essentially to masculine/feminine and "neither"... where the two M/F are basically caricatures more suited to the pages of Viz than real life.
I’ve already posted much the same as you, that many people will feel they have male and female elements to them
This is a subtle difference but my point is those "aspects" are not M/F... they don't even of any necessity go together. (based on looking at various lists from google) and really make no more sense than why its une barbe and une moustache in French but una barba and un bigote in spanish?
Speaking of which ... the notable thing for me about Eddy Izard has always been his balls in doing live shows in French and making me laugh.. what he wears (or even if he wants a different pronoun but as I remember he doesn't) is and always has been pretty much insignificant to me.
The point here really is pronouns shouldn't come loaded with baggage and equally this concept of masculinity/femininity being some structured set of characteristics people are expected to adhere to or take a third option is more destructive but the baggage is what is actually destructive.
My wife's sister has a child who is non binary. Is there a non gendered alternative to nephew or niece?
...Eddy Izard ...
No matter what he looks like his joke is not funny at all.
Kumar is much better ...
No matter what he looks like his joke is not funny at all.
Too far.
No cake for you, step this way please...
the notable thing for me about Eddy Izard has always been his balls in doing live shows in French and making me laugh.. what he wears (or even if he wants a different pronoun but as I remember he doesn’t) is and always has been pretty much insignificant to me.
matter what he looks like his joke is
Top marks to both of you for managing to get Eddie’s preferred pronouns wrong despite the correct ones being mentioned in this very thread!
Just one thing though, I’ve never met any trans or non binary person who wants to eliminate gender, just gender stereotypes. It’s all about choice, tolerance, respect and acceptance.
You and me both. ****ing sick of shopping for stuff my daughter likes in the "boys" section or having those conversations where you need to explaon that's not a boys thing and yes, she can do that.
There’s also something called chub rub that would probably affect me.
Don't flatter yourself.
Top marks to both of you for managing to get Eddie’s preferred pronouns wrong despite the correct ones being mentioned in this very thread!
Top marks for assuming everyone has read 11 pages and not skipped /skimmed bits.
On the whole gender attraction* thing, where do folk stand on a banging hot, totally feminine woman, with a penis? The arguments I've seen seem to suggest no problem, I suspect that may not always be the case.
(full disclosure, I have no problem with the above scenario, I'm very much arracted to the feminine form but genitals don't figure there. Conversely a man with breasts and a vagina would do nothing for me.)
*someone brought it up for some reason I can't fathom as it has nothing to do with the actual subject beyond something about fancying a sex because curves or some nonsense.
how someone defines thier gender is none of your business, all you have to do is accept thier choice.
all you have to do is accept thier choice.
Gets most of the marks for the question, but Even Better If you can make a bit of an effort to support them in it. Indifference is OK, I suppose, and I'm not suggesting you all need to get out your banners and go on Pride marches (although they are great fun, if a bit eye opening for a straight white guy) but eg: just taking time to find out how they want to be referred to, and remembering that as best you can makes a difference. I don't want to say it's the same for all, Boriselbrus can speak very eloquently on their experiences and ability to overcome the misgendering mistakes but particularly for my young immature person making the first steps, it really matters.
eg: we went out for lunch in Rishi's bonanza (I know, flame me!) to celebrate end of my older daughter's GCSE's. The fact that the (clearly very woke!) waiter absolutely nailed it all afternoon referring to Sir and him, etc., made him 100 or 1000 times happier than he was before we went worrying about whether he'd be stared at or misgendered.
https://www.theactivetimes.com/travel/how-to-be-a-better-lgbtq-ally-pride-month
Humans have two genders, male and female.
However, people should be allowed to identify with either as they feel comfortable.
Here's the double however, however...
It you give people an option to opt out and be different by having no gender then some will want to take it. People like to be different,like to feel like they're a special case, and, I say this with caution but experience, some like the attention that being different brings.
There are two genders, pick whichever one you want, but pick one.
where do folk stand on a banging hot, totally feminine woman, with a penis?
What else would you do it with?
Alternatively, I think there is a slight problem with the theoretical there.
The sexual (not gender) attraction thing is really interesting. Since biology plays a huge role, from pheromones to hormones, I wonder to what degree gender presention matters. Or if the equally strong influence of the drive to procreate etc influences matters.
totally feminine woman, with a penis?
I'm going to go out on a limb here but I'm not sure someone is totally feminine if they have a penis.
(people should bang whomever they want though)
It you give people an option to opt out and be different by having no gender then some will want to take it. People like to be different,like to feel like they’re a special case, and, I say this with caution but experience, some like the attention that being different brings.
There are two genders, pick whichever one you want, but pick one.
Oh God have you read ANY of this thread.
The very last thing I want to be is different and a special case. I absolutely DO NOT WANT ATTENTION. And that goes for every non-binary person I know.
Some people crave attention and get it. We tend to know a lot of them as celebrities. Some of them may identify as non binary.
For the rest of us non-binaries we just want to get through life the best we can. We go to work, love our families, ride our bikes etc. We just don't want to get our heads kicked in for being the way we are.
Same as virtually everyone else.
You might not understand it. I can understand that. But please just accept that it is real. Very real. And even if you can't accept it, please just be kind.
Humans have two genders, male and female.
Must be trolling but if not then unbelievable. But as you didn't bother to educate yourself;
Gender is used to describe the characteristics of women and men that are socially constructed, while sex refers to those that are biologically determined.
It you give people an option to opt out and be different by having no gender then some will want to take it. People like to be different,like to feel like they’re a special case, and, I say this with caution but experience, some like the attention that being different brings.
There are two genders, pick whichever one you want, but pick one.
I have to ask why on Earth are you (and who are you to be) setting some kind of global binary imperative based on
1. Your confusing biological sex with gender?
2. Your anecdotal claim that ‘some’ choose to be non-gendered for the ‘extra attention’ it brings?
From Gov/WHO:
Gender is increasingly understood as not binary but on a spectrum. Growing numbers of people are identifying as somewhere along a continuum between man and woman, or as non-gendered (neither man nor woman)
I have to ask, why do you wish to dictate the opposite? And what gives you that power?
‘People like to be different’
Well, you certainly are ‘different’, in that you are (from what I read) the lone voice here, feeling that your role is to dictate the terms/choices of other people’s gender-identities? That’s what I would call a ‘special case’, far beyond the ‘special case’ of humans having our own identity. Forget us having their own identity, Hugo instead is so ‘extra special’ as to be actually dictating terms!
A strange position to choose for oneself, especially given your fundamental misunderstanding of the subject.
Humans have two genders, male and female.
Failed at the very first point because this simply isn't true from any direction you care to look.
The very last thing I want to be is different and a special case. I absolutely DO NOT WANT ATTENTION. And that goes for every non-binary person I know.
Non-binary people are like cyclists, maybe? Most of us just want to ride our bikes, and that’s what I see. Yet, for some reason My Most Arseholeish Friend Forever would say that cyclists like to be entitled road-hogging ‘look at me’ arseholes, ie they like to feel like they’re a special case, and (he says this with caution but experience) some like the attention that being an entitled road-hogging arsehole brings. Why can’t these ‘cyclists’ just stop being ‘special’ and choose to drive a car, or van? (He’d probably allow them a motorbike, to be fair, as he always liked to brap around on one and identifies as a ‘biker’)? Why, he asks? Why instead don’t cyclists choose to drive a vehicle like normal people and in doing so just get the **** out of his way?
I once asked Most Arseholeish Friend Forever if he knew what ‘projection’ was, (in terms of psychology)?
He didn’t know. But he knows all about cyclists. From (according to him) the ‘perspective of a (sic) normal bloke’
Guys, I really want to ask that you try not belittle those that you disagree with.
The point of this problem is that some people are deep into the thought and philosophy and others are scratching the surface, what ever level you are at you have something to learn off each other.
We are all guilty of it in this thread, reading back I can see a few times when I have been less than generous with my comments, so apologies. So from now on shake hands and if you feel the need to put someone right, consider leading them gently into the light.
Borisbrusel has been clear about one thing, be kind.
Well if nothing else this thread educated me.
Gender is used to describe the characteristics of women and men that are socially constructed, while sex refers to those that are biologically determined.
I did not know this, looking up the actual definition of gender a couple days made me realise it's real meaning, most people use it to describe biological sex which is where a lot of the lack of understanding comes from.
I quite like p7eaven's analogy, most of the argument and noise is from a few non-binary people trying to be special (like the YouTube cycle warriors) when the vast majority want to get on with their lives, being who they are.
Still all a very first world issue in my opinion (and I accept it is an issue) when we have blatent and life crushing prejudice around the world that results in people losing their lives and homes.
- Just because an issue only affects 1% of the population, it doesn’t mean the remaining 99% do nothing. I think someone compared this to wheelchair ramps earlier in the thread. We support those who need support. In this case just referring to people as they like to be referred. It costs us nothing.
- First world problem - I doubt it’s a just a problem in the first world, but even if it is, just because there’s a famine on another continent it doesn’t mean this isn’t an issue for people here and elsewhere. Boriselbrus wasn’t joking with the ‘head kicked in’ line, this shouldn’t be a threat for someone just going about their day.
most of the argument and noise is from a few non-binary people trying to be special
Actually I think that most of the ‘argument and noise’ is overwhelmingly from the greedy media and ‘free speech’ warriors. ie many binary people. ymmv
Guys, I really want to ask that you try not belittle those that you disagree with.
Winding neck in thanks 👍🏼. Point well made. I get jumpy around people dictating/policing identity.
And that also goes for ‘being asked to leave class because I accidentally misgendered someone’
First world problem – I doubt it’s a just a problem in the first world
+1. I’ve struggled throughout thread to see why someone could think that tbh.
Unless they meant that certain less ‘developed’ countries are more accepting of non-binary/‘third’ gender etc?
Gender is used to describe the characteristics of women and men that are socially constructed, while sex refers to those that are biologically determined.
I did not know this, looking up the actual definition of gender a couple days made me realise it’s real meaning, most people use it to describe biological sex which is where a lot of the lack of understanding comes from.
So that's the "thing".
It's a construct (hijacked) to describe a construct... and its a most ludicrous construct that can only be maintained by labelling anyone who doesn't go along with it.
there are numerous lists claiming to list masculine and feminine traits and characteristics ... but simply looking at a few shows how utterly stupid the whole idea is.
To just take some off this thread... men like football... which is regarded as a women's game in the USA... boys like blue, girls like pink .. just another social construct... women wear skirts and dresses .. again globally not even close... or a recent thread about women riding bikes... (or not)
Really pick or create a decent list and define what things actually mean... what does aggressive mean ... or violent? Is poisoning considered non violent ?
Now what's the arbitrary score to be classified as Male/Female?
Who decides for "society" what level of deviance is "acceptable"?
The OP also created another thread... answer a load of questions and it gives you a type from 16... ( https://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/16-personalities/ )
I had a go and it seems quite accurate ... I haven't tried selecting any of the 3 genders at the end they say is for an avatar but is seems pretty close a lot closer than any gender definition of traits / characteristics and likes or dislikes.
I don't know if its more accurate than taking my star chart (I'd hope so)... but hopefully most of us don't set expectations of others from their astrological symbol.
Or blood type
The study, which surveyed 1,500 men and women over 19 years of age, showed 58 percent believed blood type corresponded to personality traits, with 49 percent of them saying they liked people with type O blood the most. The next most popular were type A (20 percent), type B (16 percent), and type AB (6 percent).
Type O blood had also ranked number one in the same survey conducted in 2012 and 2002, Gallup Korea said. Many believe people with type O blood have an extroverted personality suited to collectivistic Korean culture and few character flaws, which may have arisen from the fact that type O blood is considered the “universal donor.”
I’ve struggled throughout thread to see why someone could think that tbh.
Calling it a first world problem is belittling it, no other way of taking that comment really.
It is clearly not a first world problem for those directly dealing with it. Waitrose running out of avocados is a first world problem.
It's a lot more of a problem in the third world to be fair. People are being killed and abused for this and all sorts of other things we take for granted.
The blood type thing has been debunked, along the liens that type o is the most prevalent type -ergo likeable types more liekly to be type O, it probably works equally for people you hate.
I am some obscure version of B and a lot of people hate me.
I don't know my blood group, can you choose?
On the whole gender attraction* thing, where do folk stand on a banging hot, totally feminine woman, with a penis
For me its a man ergo not attractive to me. Having sex with a trans-woman would be like having sex with a man. I'm heterosexual so like my woman to have been born a female.
Oh God have you read ANY of this thread.
I used the word "some", which you've not read or ignored, ironically.
And what gives you that power?
No-one, it's my opinion.
This type of response to someone's opinion is what is holding back more meaningful debate.
In what way was your post encouraging a meaningful debate?
No-one, it’s my opinion.
This type of response to someone’s opinion is what is holding back more meaningful debate.
I’d contend that the debate isn’t being held back. I’m asking you a semi-rhetorical question in answer to your ‘opinion’ that non-binary people should pick one of two genders.
ie what gives you/anyone the power to dictate that? You alluded to a claim that non-binary came about as a response to being granted the ‘option’?
It you give people an option to opt out and be different by having no gender then some will want to take it.
Again, who holds this power over people’s options? You? Your opinion? Your opinion in society? You/I/us as parents?
Would you instruct your child to ‘pick one gender’? For instance?
*my bold
No-one, it’s my opinion.
This type of response to someone’s opinion is what is holding back more meaningful debate.
Unfortunately opinions become invalid when based on ignorance. See also the opinions of flat earthers, anti vaxxers etc.
I know that sounds harsh, but your opinion seems to be based purely on your lack of experience and knowledge.
However I've lived a non binary life for the last 49 years. It IS a thing, whether that ties in with your opinion does not make it less of a thing.
Your opinion attempts to deny me my entire identity. My life experience trumps your uneducated opinion.
<mic drop>
well said Boris
There is a great word for it too, ultracrepidarian. I do honestly think what somebody posted on the last page is true. Some people get gender and biological sex confused or think gender is the same thing as sex.
I dunno, I've never heard anyone ask 'will you have gender with me?'
Then again.....
It you give people an option to opt out and be different by having no gender then some will want to take it.
I believe that people have been ‘opting-out’ for decades, if not centuries, it’s society as a whole that’s been restrictive, and it continues to be so, one only has to look at what’s happening in America, Africa, Europe, and many countries in the Middle East, Asia and South America, particularly in those with nationalist right-wing governments.
For millennia!
Great post CountZero.
Wow, this thread got depressing since I last checked in. Kudos to BB for sticking with it.
Yet again it seems that ‘be kind’ only applies in one direction.
I believe that people have been ‘opting-out’ for decades, if not centuries, it’s society as a whole that’s been restrictive, and it continues to be so, one only has to look at what’s happening in America, Africa, Europe, and many countries in the Middle East, Asia and South America, particularly in those with nationalist right-wing governments.
Opting out? In Asia/S.E Asia it is well known that there are "five genders" based on physical or behavioural outlook.
Female - Masculine & Feminine
Male - Masculine & Feminine
Person born with two sex organs - Masculine & Feminine. (count as one)
For example, a feminine man might have a masculine wife/partner vice versa, which is acceptable. If a man likes to dress as a woman etc while the wife likes to dress like a man. People just acknowledge they are having a reversal role in their life. People might laugh or tease them but will let them be. As long as they don't have gay pleasure they are all accepted (there are gay pleasure but so long as they do not try to openly announce it to the world nobody cares).
However, Taiwan has recently acknowledged same sex marriage but others in the region totally reject that.
People might laugh or tease them but will let them be
Maybe that’s the way you view it through your ‘lens’?
I’d recommend seeing it from other perspectives
https://outrightinternational.org/content/violence-through-lens-lbt-people-asia
This is the main finding from research coordinated by the International Gay and Lesbian Human Rights Commission (IGLHRC) and conducted over a two-year period by women’s rights, sexuality rights and gender rights activists based in Japan, Malaysia, ****stan, Philippines and Sri Lanka. Interviews were conducted in Japanese, English, Malay, Tamil, Urdu, Tagalog, Cebuano, Ilocano and Sinhala. The researchers uncovered high levels of family violence perpetrated against LBT individuals as well as widespread discrimination in education, health and work sectors.
LBT people faced this frequent violence and daily discrimination without any protection from the state. While many found strength in knowing that they had survived the violence they were subjected to, the quality of survival was affected – even compromised – by the ubiquity of discourses in the public sphere justifying abuse against lesbian and bisexual women. In particular, public discourse sanctioned abuse against gender non-conforming women and men.
Chewkw was talking about gender fluidity rather than homosexuality which he agreed was a problem for Asia. They are different things.
It's a good point though, this is a very Euro-centric issue. Many other cultures recognise third genders or even more. This demonstrates it's not a modern thing.
It also shows it can be a problem purely of language. English has two gender words. Would any of this be a problem in say, Hawai'i where there are three gender words?
I'm a gender non-conforming woman. For most of the last year, my working from home wardrobe has been a pair of combat trousers.
I don't have a 'gender identity', I don't 'feel like a woman', I just am a woman, an adult female.
I'm also a lesbian and my attraction is to the opposite sex, not someone's sense of 'gender identity'.
Growing up in the 70s and 80s, I was allowed to be me. If I was a young person growing up today, I know that wouldn't be the case. I guess I was (and still am) 'not like the other girls' but I didn't grow up bombarded with the message that wearing the clothes I wanted to wear, having my hair cut short, and doing the activities I wanted, meant that I don't fit in the 'woman box'.
If I was a young person growing up today, I know that wouldn’t be the case.
Really? What makes you say that?
I started writing some anecdotes about my son’s friends to reassure you that hopefully that isn’t the case… but then realised that as they live in Hebden Bridge, their lives might not be typical.
Really? What makes you say that?
For one, I have more than one friend with a daughter, whose 'identity' has been questioned by their peer group. Just leave them be!
Growing up in the 70s and 80s, I was allowed to be me. If I was a young person growing up today, I know that wouldn’t be the case. I guess I was (and still am) ‘not like the other girls’ but I didn’t grow up bombarded with the message that wearing the clothes I wanted to wear, having my hair cut short, and doing the activities I wanted, meant that I don’t fit in the ‘woman box’.
@rainper Thank you for your post.
The current 'identity' mantra is deeply homophobic.
Chewkw was talking about gender fluidity rather than homosexuality which he agreed was a problem for Asia. They are different things.
I realise chewkw was talking about gender-fluidity (more correctly role-reversal)
People just acknowledge they are having a reversal role in their life. People might laugh or tease them but will let them be.
That contrasts with the report that I quoted.
Just to be sure, I’ll quote the last paragraph again, maybe it got lost:
LBT people faced this frequent violence and daily discrimination without any protection from the state. While many found strength in knowing that they had survived the violence they were subjected to, the quality of survival was affected – even compromised – by the ubiquity of discourses in the public sphere justifying abuse against lesbian and bisexual women. In particular, public discourse sanctioned abuse against gender non-conforming women and men.
*my bold
It’s interesting to see how colonialism has affected traditional cultures.
Western patriarchal culture traditionally (via Christianity) sought to fix a binary view within both itself and the cultures being colonised/oppressed. Similar can be seen with versions of Islam. Malaysia comes to mind in the latter, although didn’t Malaysia used to be Hindu and Buddhist?
Again, I think it’s lazy-minded (and often wrong) to see gender issues as a modern ‘first world’ ‘problem’.
Such a statement itself translates badly, and variously as ‘(sic) they are a first world affliction’ or ‘(sic) they don’t experience hardships/prejudice/hate to speak of by comparison to so-called ‘thirld world countries’
It’s far more complicated? From wikipedia (sorry!)
Gender may be recognized and organized differently in different cultures. In some non-Western cultures, gender may not be seen as binary, or people may be seen as being able to cross freely between male and female, or to exist in a state that is in-between, or neither. In some cultures being third gender may be associated with the gift of being able to mediate between the world of the spirits and world of humans.[39] For cultures with these spiritual beliefs, it is generally seen as a positive thing, though some third gender people have also been accused of witchcraft and persecuted.[40] In most western cultures, people who do not conform to heteronormative ideals are often seen as sick, disordered, or insufficiently formed.[39]
The Indigenous māhū of Hawaii are seen as embodying an intermediate state between man and woman, or as people "of indeterminate gender",[7] while some traditional Dineh of the Southwestern US recognize a spectrum of four genders: feminine woman, masculine woman, feminine man, masculine man.[8] The term "third gender" has also been used to describe the hijras of South Asia[9] who have gained legal identity, the fa'afafine of Polynesia, and the Albanian sworn virgins.[10]
In some Indigenous communities in Africa[vague], a woman can be recognized as a “female husband” who enjoys all of the privileges of men and is recognized as such, but whose femaleness, while not openly acknowledged, is not forgotten either.[41]
The hijras of India are one of the most recognized groups of third gender people. Some western commentators (Hines and Sanger) have theorized that this could be a result of the Hindu belief in reincarnation, in which gender, sex, and even species can change from lifetime to lifetime, perhaps allowing for a more fluid interpretation. There are other cultures in which the third gender is seen as an intermediate state of being rather than as a movement from one conventional sex to the other.[42]
It’s also easy to think that ‘it only really happens in those foreign countries’
in Europe:
Poland:
In Poland, anti-LGBTQ+ rhetoric has become widespread in recent years, stoked by President Andrzej Duda, who recently stated that LGBTQ+ people are an ideology ‘even more destructive’ than communism and pledged to ban the propagation of this ‘ideology’ in public institutions.
More than 80 local governments in Poland have declared themselves ‘LGBT-free zones’
Hungary:
Hungary’s far-right ruling party Fidesz has signalled its intention to change the constitution to defend so-called ‘Christian values’. They recently banned the legal recognition of trans people and LGBT people from becoming parents.
United Kingdom:
Transphobia is so prevalent in the UK that in 2017 a trans woman was granted residency in New Zealand because of the persecution she suffered here.
Transphobic hate crimes have quadrupled in the last five years, with 4 out of 5 trans people experiencing a transphobic hate crime, and 1 in 4 experiencing physical assault or the threat of physical assault.
My own experiences of being a non-binary person in the UK have waxed and waned in line with personal confidence/well-being, and also to a degree with cultural/attitude shifts over (IME) the last forty years. Again, IME, where I’ve experienced verbal abuse it has usually been of the homophobic and/or misogynistic nature 🤪
Chewkw was talking about gender fluidity rather than homosexuality which he agreed was a problem for Asia. They are different things.
Not a problem in that region as long as they are not having same sex pleasure. i.e. a man dress up like a woman with the intention to sleep with another man (same applies to women), and in more conservative areas, will only endanger their own lives. Homosexuality is a no there.
For example, if Eddy Izzard lives in that region and moves around with his gender it is not an issue but if he is in his girl mode and try to sleep with a man then he is a gay, which is a no regardless of the mode he is in.
That contrasts with the report that I quoted.
In a ultra conservative area, yes it is dangerous.
If you look at the wedding ceremony of the Sultan of Brunei's children, and if you look carefully you will find that many of those who are managing the ceremony are actually men dressing like women in traditional women dress. Traditionally or historically they are important part of the community.
a man dress up like a woman with the intention to sleep with another man
What if he doesn't dress up?
Come to that,
What if a (non-trans) man and a woman want to engage in a bit of bum fun, is that verboten too or is that fine?
What if he doesn’t dress up?
Same end result. The whole idea is homosexuality or gay sex is not permitted. Gender is defined as the organ(s) a person is born with. If a person has undergone sex change that person might be able to get away for a while but not for long.
What if a (non-trans) man and a woman want to engage in a bit of bum fun ..."
They don't care much about that or simply keep a blind eye to that practice. But if either one of the person starts to complain then one of them will get into trouble.
but I didn’t grow up bombarded with the message that wearing the clothes I wanted to wear, having my hair cut short, and doing the activities I wanted, meant that I don’t fit in the ‘woman box’.
Similar experience, albeit I was born male into a 1970s British working class and of course assigned a male gender.
Growing up in an urban conurbation in the 1980s was a largely tolerant affair but you’d get called ‘poof’ or ‘gay’ in a derogatory fashion just for looking ‘different’ or more ‘feminine’.
I do remember at times having strange men shout from behind as I walked past ‘am yow a chap, or a wench?’
As if it was perfectly OK to ask that of a stranger! OTOH I’ve never experienced strange women either shouting or asking this question. If they decided to offer comment it would be by way of complimenting me on my clothes/hair etc. Or asking
‘Is that real or a wig’?
‘feel it!’
‘Wig! It looks great’
‘Thanks. I used to have hair (laughs)’
I’d ignore it (the shouting) at first. As I reached my third decade it turned out I’d be more ‘flamboyant’ (read ‘confident’) and generally shoot back a friendly/witty retort which would more often see prospecting abusers scuttle or at least look flustered. Men feel more confident to pick on ‘outsiders’ when they are in large groups, I always tended to avoid those situations/crowds.
By the time the 21st century arrived I had already (late 90’s) begun (mistakenly) describing self as ‘pansexual’ (thinking it meant non-prejudiced, as in ‘accepts all’) - but was later informed by then fiancee (since wife) that pansexual meant ‘attracted to all sexes and genders’. That isn’t me, AFAIK I’m only attracted to biological women (although of any gender)
So, seemed like I’m ‘non-binary’ when it came to gender. Which sort of explained a lot.
Have since learned the terms ‘pangender’ and ‘omnigender’ which better describes my experience/identity. I always filled in forms as ‘M’ gender though.
Nowadays I’m outwardly a fat bald bloke locked down in outsized unisex sportswear. This has to be my least favourite ‘incarnation’ to date. Threw my wig away in 2019. Largely (sic, sic, sic!) because: 1. I was unhappy with my looks/weight gain and depressed in general with a number of challenging life-events. 2. It was way past sell by date.
I still dislike wearing suits and overtly ‘masculine’ clothing. Not so much an issue in 2021 UK, as sportswear and casual wear is virtually genderless.
My favourite clothing ever was a vintage striped tube dress with buttons, collar, I’d wear along with stack-heel boots and a bob-haircut (later a wig of the same style). Jewellery? Would have about 50-odd bangles, most from friends. Pierced nose and earring. Jewellery from girlfriends (romantic or otherwise) lived in a box. I felt inexplicably grounded and balanced in being ‘neither male or female’ gender. It wasn’t ‘cross-dressing’ as I didn’t seek to emulate this or that. I knew that I disliked ‘masculine’ jewellery ie thick chains, sovereigns etc. I’d favour folkloric jewellery. I have slim fingers but curiously I chose a thicker wedding ring than my wife, both of the same Celtic design. As if to assert ‘something’?
Few of my past style-choices/clothing, mannerisms, reading material and cultural excursions are an outward features of my life today. My ageing parents would now ‘explain’ that by saying ‘oh he finally grew up’. The truth is that I since got ‘lost’ in recent decades of a depressive illness which had nothing (AFAIK) to do with gender and life-interests/pastimes, and a lot more to do with trackies, emotional eating and psychological numbness.
I joke at times, declaring that I’m now ‘obesexual’.
And so another journey begins.
It’s a long road back to physical/ mental health.
Back to gender issues - IMO making peace with one’s own identity need not be a ‘cherry’ on top of life’s other problems. Neither necessarily a ‘flag of defiance’ against cultural/societal norms. Others will pin that on you.
Making peace with yourself is just the simple act of ‘being’. Rigid conformists will come at you with no sense of irony yet I think most people (not all) go through changes and ‘versions’ of themselves throughout life, even if not so much by way of gender identity. But I warrant that being gender non-binary is under-reported in surveys for any number of reasons.
Have you seen the news about EHRC?
Yes I have. At face value this seems like good news.
For anyone wondering, the EHRC is no longer a member of the Stonewall Diversity Champions Scheme.
https://sex-matters.org/posts/media/press-release-equality-and-human-rights-commission-cuts-ties-with-stonewall/
Seems like the EHRC is becoming increasingly politicised and are now being drawn into 'anti-woke' culture wars at the behest of the government. How is that a good thing?
Before anyone spends too much time or emotional energy engaging with rainper’s contributions to this thread, I recommend checking out their posting history, just so you are prepared for where things are likely to lead to.
Seems like the EHRC is becoming increasingly politicised and are now being drawn into ‘anti-woke’ culture wars at the behest of the government. How is that a good thing?
@grum I have the opposite conclusion. Stonewall is an activist group focusing on particular protected characteristics (Equality Act). The Commission has a duty to be neutral, especially where there maybe a conflict between protected characteristics.
Well @clarkpm4242 the former chair of the EHRC seems to agree with me.
The former Chair of the Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) has revealed his suspicions of a plot within government to politicise the supposedly independent body.
David Isaac, who headed the agency from 2016 to 2020, told the Guardian that new appointments made to the EHRC by Minister for Women and Equalities, Liz Truss, have been selected for their political beliefs and likelihood to support Number 10.
He cited a recent speech by Truss, in which she announced the EHRC would “drive” forward a focus on the plight of white working class people and less on women and ethnic minorities, as evidence of government meddling.
https://www.ier.org.uk/news/the-ehrc-is-becoming-a-political-instrument-former-chair-says/
I don't really know that much about Stonewall TBH and maybe there is a real issue but the agenda here is pretty clear.
Rainper and p7eaven.
Thank you so much for your posts. It's a journey isn't it!
Thanks @grum however, my rationale still holds. The Commission cannot weigh up competing interests in a neutral manner if it is actively and singularly engaged with a political/activist group that sides with one of the impacted groups.
Before anyone spends too much time or emotional energy engaging with rainper’s contributions to this thread, I recommend checking out their posting history, just so you are prepared for where things are likely to lead to.
So ‘be kind’ doesn’t extend to the only declared lesbian on this thread?
It’s not insulting to suggest people look at past contributions to gain context and understanding before engaging in depth with someone on a particular issue. Is it? I’ve just advised checking out their posting history.
^ being ‘kind’ ≠ ‘not insulting’?
Kindness is defined as the quality of being friendly, generous, and considerate. ...
Okay, why is it inconsiderate (unfriendly/ungenerous) to suggest checking out past contributions before engaging in depth?
Why are you singling out this particular poster? I've just read all rainper's posts - there does't seem to be anything that's especially contentious, certainly nothing I can see that would put me off engaging with her.
Why are you singling out this particular poster?
I shouldn’t have. It applies to others as well.
Fair play.
I'm still at a loss though. As I said I read her posts after you suggested it. There were some I agreed with others that I didn't, but nothing that would make me wary of engaging: no insulting, no picking on another individual, no strops, no anger. I simply cannot see why you consider that this poster needs a warning.
They don’t need a ‘warning’, any more than you or clarkpm4242 (or anyone else) does. But it is far quicker to appreciate their views on gender than either of you, because they post about very little else on this forum. It takes only a few minutes to have a quick read, and take into account, their posts on this issue, because unlike others you don’t have to filter out posts about other issues or mountain biking.
Ah, so me and clarkpm4242 need a warning as well, eh? I see where you're coming from now.
I'm not sure why, I don't consider disagreement to be a problem. I've liked reading your posts, agreed with some of them and learned something from some of them as well. It seems strange to take part in a discussion on a subject if you only want to engage with certain viewpoints.
It seems strange to take part in a discussion on a subject if you only want to engage with certain viewpoints.
I haven’t said don’t engage with anyone with any viewpoint, I’ve said that it’s worth checking out the past posts from one poster before doing so in depth with them. In fact, a quick easy scan of their posts helps understand their viewpoint very quickly, and that could help engage with useful background and context, and with perhaps more sensitivity and, yes, care.