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... tell you what.
Let's draw a line here because this is getting increasingly silly. Following the information and advice you've already been offered over the previous four pages, why don't you take stock for a moment and then explain what bits you still don't understand, and we'll try and fill in the gaps for you?
how do you tell the difference?
If I forget and accidentally say 'she' I'll say 'oh sorry' and correct myself. If I'm doing it deliberately I won't apologise and I'll keep doing it despite being asked to change. Fairly sure you'd be able to tell the difference.
Me, I'm crap with names, so I might well call you Dave if your name is Steve. You'd probably be able to tell if I was doing it accidentally or on purpose don't you think?
Well I quoted your post Cougar, so who's posting under your user name?
Me complaining about words I "don't like" has nothing to do with my OP, because DL has not claimed that they've come out as non binary because people were using words they didn't like.
So it is not the "...concept I was initially claiming" at all.
Having backtracked through the pages, I will now apologise and thank theotherjonv and boriselbrus for posting what they have because I have indeed learned something about non binary in between a lot of the personal insensitivity and insensitive language in the pages of this thread.
On the subject of pronouns is it ok to use the gender neutral "they" for everyone? - I would not have any issues with anyone using that about me although I might think it a little odd.
@boriselbus - thank you much for your posts. It's actually helped make sense of some things for me.
On the 'they' pronoun, yes it feels a bit weird as we are used to using it in a different way so it messes our head a bit. Wish there was another alternative but I'll try and keep up.
On the first world problem thing. No it's not as mentioned before and although I can't have a direct influence on what happens in Palestine I absolutely ****ing can influence whether I hurt the person in front of me by being careless or lazy so I will do my best to stop that. I will start being kind right where I am. Maybe it will spread
Unless every conversation I ever have with someone starts with “nice to meet you, what are your preferred pro-nouns?”
In my area of work it is quite normal for biographies and emails to have exactly this information on them
(ji: He/Him)
On the ‘they’ pronoun, yes it feels a bit weird as we are used to using it in a different way so it messes our head a bit. Wish there was another alternative but I’ll try and keep up.
Likewise.
I worked in someone's house recently who was transitioning and called them mate which they took objection to. I happily explained I call everyone mate as I'm terrible with names and everyone was happy. It's a brave new world.
In my native language there are no genderized pronouns but discussion has been stuck at ’what toilets they should use then?’ for couple of years now.
Is gender dysphoria not a medical condition then?
Lots of trans people would certainly argue it is not. It may well result in medical/psychological symptoms, but there's quite a debate on whether there is some underlying medical/biological "cause". However, if it is controversial to say Gender dysphoria is a medical condition its more controversial to suggest that everyone who is non-binary has gender dysphoria, and its almost certainly wrong to assume that because someone prefers they/them/their that their gender identity and sex don't match etc.
Who is Demi Lovato and why should I care?
Without being flippant, but uh yeah....me too! 🤣
To be honest: whatever gets you through the night then call yourself that. The whole sexual identity thing is MIND BLOWING to be honest & Im very glad I don’t feel the need to overthink it. For those who are afflicted/conflicted then good luck for a successful resolution. Personally, I don’t really see the World in binary terms that much - everything is mostly shades of grey. Some darker, some lighter.
But I still don’t know who Demi Lovato is....
(FYI Louis Theroux & his program on transitioning for an eye opener on what can be achieved.)
@theotherjonv, insightful as always. @boriselbrus thank you for explaining a complicated subject in a very simple way, makes a lot more sense to me now.
Just to really put the cat among the pigeons – I thought that the idea of unforgivable offence being caused by using the wrong forms of address died with the aristorcracy.
It lives again as a (very profitable) alt-right strawperson to pummel seemingly forever
I'm really quite annoyed about this.
I posted up to show how it's handled elsewhere (University of Colorado if you must know). I also commented that it was rigid and, I felt, quite draconian.
For someone who had never experienced that before then, yes, my son struggled with it at first of fear of causing unintended offence or being asked to leave the course he so wanted to complete. He has anxiety and esteem issues anyway so stressors over and above what he expects are always a little fraught.
I bob back in for a read only to find it's been used by Kryton to justify his anti diversity posts and for Cougar to basically insinuate that my son is either homophobic or a liar or both.
The only thing we have to go on so far is seemingly “someone’s son allegedly felt a bit uncomfortable in the presence of a non-binary person and didn’t know what to say so kept quiet.”
The problem we have here is, really, that you’re hanging your hat on someone else’s post when it’s entirely possible that that someone else is talking bollocks.
And I don’t mean that disrespectfully, it could well be posted in good faith. But our sole evidence for your argument is someone on the Internet’s son going “hey dad, you’ll never guess what happened today…” and I don’t consider that to be an authoritative source. Sorry.
For one I was actually there when the call took place but you seem to have a much better idea than me what happened.
Secondly, my lad has struggled with his own sexual identity since his early teens and, as some of you know, this resulted in an attempt on his life at 18, and again becoming suicidal at the end of last year, although he's reaching a resolution this time I think/hope.
I find it really insulting.
@dangerousbeans Firstly, I'm very sorry for your son's situation, I genuinely hope both you and he have the strength and help to improve it going forward.
However, if you or anyone else here thinks I've posted the OP for reasons of anti-diversity you really don't know me at all nor read/understood much of my posting history.
I stand by my purpose of asking a question as an honest request for knowledge on subject I have limited understanding however badly some may think it's written. If you or anyone else thinks that's false then you are welcome to your opinion but I feel comfortable in my own conviction on that point.
Whenever I start thinking about this (and I do have to a lot at work - it's a very hot topic) it perturbs me how little I gaf about my own gender identity. It genuinely never crosses my mind. The attributes that make me me when I list them just don't have my gender on it. I never think 'I am a man'. The little voice inside me frequently reminds me that I am attracted to women but that clearly and obviously is different to telling me I am a man. It is never a point to ponder, celebrate, or question. If I had a tick box of men's 'gender stereotypes' in front of me, I tick a good number, but not all of them but I've never questioned that I don't have a full house. I guess that makes me lucky (as are most others) to be comfortable in my own skin and that I identify as a man without question (even if it is never ever a topic of internal monologue). But....it does make it harder for me to appreciate that it's a big deal for others. That knowing their personality attributes, their physical makeup and their sexuality is not enough for them.
I'm getting better at not using gendered terms (using 'everyone' instead of 'ladies and gents' for example - And I've got out of the habit of using 'hey guys' which I used to use all the time even when talking to groups of girls but feels murky waters now) when talking to groups. They/them referring to individuals is taking longer - not to do it, but not to make my sentences sound clunky or remove the just a minute style hesitation my brain still put in sometimes. 49 years is a lot of unlearning.
Here’s the guide from California State University:
https://www.csun.edu/pride/pronounsmatter
It has a non-exhaustive list of the 27 most common pronouns, and some FAQS on how they should be used.
Where's the bit where it says you will be excluded if you don't instantly memorise them all?
It really is a first world problem though
Not quite sure to make of that 🧐?
There's no such thing as a Code Red because it isn't in the manual.
Not read through all comments, but as many have said, out of common courtesy i will always use whatever pronoun the individual prefers, my own personal feelings/understandings may not be aligned to this, but it doesn't have to be, because on one side of the argument is a scenario where i am interacting with someone at some type of personal/business/etc level, so why would i not be respectful and courteous, the other side of the argument is personal belief, which is something that would (or should) be in discussions about this issue, rather than actual usage.
This is an intense thread with lots of good opinion and insight from all corners. Gender identity is something I’ve never really given much thought to on a personal level so it is interesting to read about various experiences.
I tend to refer to people by their forename. I Don’t really know where I stand on referring to different people with different pronouns. It’s genuinely not a situation I’ve come across but I’d try to be courteous if/when I do.
On the whole Steve versus Stephen thing I have a different stance. I tend to shorten everyone’s name through habit. People who insist on being called by their full names are generally ****ing weird in my experience. Therefore their name will be forever shortened or simply changed completely and I’m okay with being a dick in this instance. In most workplaces I’ve been in to tell somebody you hate being called by a shorter or longer forename is generally a recipe for always being called by the version you don’t like.
**** you Stevie!
Mainly what Poly said, but I’d also suggest trying harder. Making a small effort to be inclusive and refer to someone as they wish to be referred to does make a big difference to their self validation. Referring to my son as she or by his old name; every time it chips away at their own sense of identity. What’s the worst nickname you’ve ever had, and remember how it feels when the bullies always called you that? Now x10 or x100
But this raises the question I keep asking myself; how on Earth am I to know in advance that some random person I’ve never met before prefers to be referred to in a particular way, that is seemingly at odds with the way they present themselves to the world at large?
I can’t possibly know or guess.
My adjectives are "cool" and "sexy". Please use them when referring to me.
Actually, much of the time you can.
Most TG people are making an effort to present as the identity they identify as, and it shouldn't be difficult to work out and get it right. Non-binary can be trickier, but in either case if it isn't clear to you then ask. You can do that in a non-contentious way 'do you have a pronoun you prefer to be known by?' in the same way as you might meet someone called Stephen and enquire whether it's Stephen, or Steve, or....
Thankyou for asking and trying to find more out.
Ok I'm very briefly going to add to this thread, but am aware that I am not fully informed or knowledgeable about all of the subject matter.
Trans I understand, choosing a gender I understand, not identifying with the gender you were born / brought up as, I understand.
Deciding not to have a gender fully confuses me. Personal choice is a given, but I still don't understand how choosing to be no gender works.
I am in no way saying you can't I simply do not understand it.
There are lots in this thread that I find interesting and I hope me posting doesn't detract /garner the usual abuse that follows my posts lol.
Interesting subject.
While there are people who feel they have ‘no gender’, the OP was more about those who feel that to identify purely as a man or as a women wouldn’t be true to who they are. So it is not that that have no gender, it is that their gender does not neatly fit into either of the binary male/female classifications. Arguably, this is true of many people, but most will feel they fit one classification far better than the other, so any overlap with the gender they don’t identify with is no big issue for them. Not the case for all though, and sometimes people take a long time to get to the point where they want to be clear to others about not fitting neatly into a binary classification, so that they can live their life more honestly.
I've just been told off for laughing too loud (we're currently in a granny flat AirBnB), wonderful contributions and wordplay. Thank you Jesus, thank you lord.
Non binary. Interesting.
A bit like the question of nurture vs nature innit.
As long as they are happy so be it non binary whatever ... people should just be themselves. Simple!
Please address me as 'Dear Master' then wait for permission to speak.
There's a fantastic song about this on the new NOFX Single Album, but I can't embed it because there's a swear word in the title card 🙁
@
NOFX - F*** Euphemism
And Fat Mike suggests we use "Per" for person... I'm inclined to agree 🙂
So far, we have followed in the progressive footsteps of the US
Yes, I just this week learned that a dear friend of ours (English, living in England) had discovered this last year that she’s effectively lost 3/4 of her (blood and extended) family due to them becoming more ‘American’. Excommunicated because of her ‘brainwashed’ views (they took it upon themselves to berate and drop her for having had a Covid vaccination/believed that Covid-19 is a genuine pandemic) they have all gone full US Trumpist Republican to the point where a couple of them physically restrained their mother to prevent her from having the vaccine.
They also seem confused as to how to vote for Trump come next general election, in response to the ‘wokeism’ of Johnson & Co.
Closer to home, stepson and wife just fled the UK and relocated to the US because in their/his view the UK is too ‘progressive/strict’ and ‘woke/draconian’ re (again) Covid-19. Mrs P is quietly bereft/depressed about and tbh it breaks my heart to see her struggle with her first and only born having gone down a 5000 mile rabbithole. The internet/social media reaction to absolutely everything is a supercharged offensive and counter-offensive. Strawgeddon.
Right now it seems everyone’s freedumbs are so ‘rightly offended’ and ‘restricted’ that the only way out is to react as if everything and everyone is some kind of a fascist and/or communist.
Also heard the weirdest thing the other day from someone we know. Idle chit chat about how family are doing etc. They said they were looking for a local college for their eldest. We asked if they’d narrowed it down and they responded - ‘It’s really difficult, because they are all Marxist these days and we don’t want that for them’.
‘Americanism’ may be a thing, but I’d argue against it spreading ‘progressivism’. At least for the moment. It’s spreading hysteria. It goes something like this:
‘Wait, you want be an absolute outraged lefty lunatic and to identify as non-binary/gay/vegan/sheep? I’m outraged but instead will pretend not to care. Luckily my outrage may be expressed via creating a strawman argument about you wanting to force me to use scores of made up pronouns/force my children to identify as LGBTQXYZ/eat raw carrots/bleat about the plandemic otherwise you and the post modern marxinists will send me to the literal gulag. Click like and subscribe’
Nice rant, bud. I lost interest after a few lines. Claiming that someone's lived experience is a "strawman" makes you into the internet lunatic.
*your clearly fairly biased interpretation/recollection of someone else's lived experience
Maybe go and read the guy's response, then come back to me:
singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/non-binary/page/5/#post-11890038
People have a hard enough time with difficult issues like these.
‘Americanism’ may be a thing, but I’d argue against it spreading ‘progressivism’
America seems to try harder with diversity and accepts it is a problem more readily than the UK. It does have a harder job though as the % of backwards people in US is even higher than the UK
Trans I understand, choosing a gender I understand, not identifying with the gender you were born / brought up as, I understand.
Deciding not to have a gender fully confuses me. Personal choice is a given, but I still don’t understand how choosing to be no gender works.
I am in no way saying you can’t I simply do not understand it.
In a really crude and probably offensive over simplification of a major life issue - but since this is a bike forum:
Mountain biker decides to quit the full suss, switch to road, lycra, aeorhelmet, look clips => trans. (the reverse is obviously possible too)
Mountain biker decides whether they are riding road or mountain today depending how they feel and dresses and takes the bike that suits => gender fluid
Person who rides bikes and doesn't really see why we need to label people as MTB'er or Roadie => Non binary
Does that help see why someone might not see the two extremes as either/or, and the need to pick one?
and in an attempt to keep things light hearted:
Mountain biker who switches to triathlon => Pervert
Please address me as ‘Dear Master’ then wait for permission to speak.
I wonder if the people making these witty little comments realise that are being a little trans-phobic and doing the equivalent to saying "all lives matter" and "don't forget about men's rights".
Making jokes about pronouns does not make a person "transphobic", and using that label in an attempt to squash conversation just confirms peoples' fears, rightly or wrongly held, about the nature of this discussion.
I'll be the first to admit, i've gotten to an age where I just don't care what you want to identify as, it doesn't concern me and I don't really care what people identify me as. I just don't understand the need to make videos (and i'm talking about Demi Lavato here) to announce it to the world as some spriritual 4th dimension awakening (their words......and yes, I had to retype that) under the guise of helping other people when, chances are pretty big, there's a new album in the works and it'll be called "Arrival" or "Introducing...they!!!"
I had a whole thing typed out about this but I just feel for the teenagers out there at the moment that are confused about themselves or don't feel they fit in to a specific gender but don't get to go on Ellen and talk about it or have millions of followers mindlessly agreeing with everything that comes out of their gobs.
There just can't seem to be a sensible conversation about it without it turning into a shouting match or people losing their jobs and being taken to court for misgendering someone
A few things to pick up on...
@dangerousbeans That's so sad, you, your son and family have my best wishes
First world problem
Well yes it is in many ways. Especially when you bear in mind that in many developing countries being trans or gay is illegal and can result in you being imprisoned or executed. For example
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_the_United_Arab_Emirates#Gender_identity_and_expression
Trans I understand, choosing a gender I understand, not identifying with the gender you were born / brought up as, I understand.
Deciding not to have a gender fully confuses me. Personal choice is a given, but I still don’t understand how choosing to be no gender works.
I am in no way saying you can’t I simply do not understand it.
That's fair enough. I've lived for it for 49 years and I don't understand it. The real problem is in defining gender. For years we said penis = male, vagina = female. And that's fine. But we also said war, violence, strength, trousers/breeches, short hair, sport, = male and long hair, pretty dresses, flower arranging, corsets, fainting, caring, nurturing, home-making = female. So what if you have a penis but like long hair, pretty dresses and flower arranging and hate violence, trousers and sport? What gender (that's gender, not sex) are you? And that's not a choice. You can't choose to want to wear pretty dresses any more than you can choose to like mountain biking. You either like it or you don't and no-one can make you like it if you don't.
That's what non-binary is in effect. It's having the physical characteristics of one gender and the mental characteristics of another. And it's not a choice.
Now full trans people will feel all the time that their mental gender characteristics are different to their physical ones so they may transition.
But my brain moves about. Sometimes I want or needto wear a pretty dress and express my female characteristics. Sometimes the idea seems ridiculous. Sometimes I really want or need to go and ride a bike. Other times I really don't want to and would rather stay inside and read.
So that's non-binary. I don't want to be pigeon holed as male or female because although my sex is male, my gender moves about all over the place from fairly male to very girly. Now personally I don't care much about pronouns, life is complicated enough as it is. But I do understand how if I'm at work and presenting as male, but my brain is very much female then receiving male pronouns could be very jarring and vice versa. This is why gender neutral pronouns can be very helpful.
So far, we have followed in the progressive footsteps of the US
Don't make me laugh. The "progressive USA" only extends to a few of the coastal states, predominantly California. The Trump regime did a lot to remove trans rights including discharging trans service people from the military even when they had served with distinction for many years. There are states especially in the deep south where trans rights are non existent and it is illegal for a trans woman to use a ladies toilet even if she transitioned before puberty, had full surgery and has been living fully as a woman for years.
The pronoun thing is important. Imagine as a non questioning male you go to work and your colleagues use female pronouns for you. "Have you worked with Dave?" "Yeah, she's really helpful and knowledgeable", "Yeah, she's a real asset to the company". You go to the pub with your mates "Dave, do you want another drink?" "Nah, I reckon she's had enough, if she has any more she'll he shit on the bike tomorrow". How long before that makes you irritated? Angry? Depressed? Suicidal?
That said I don't understand the reason for all the different pronouns in that list above but clearly they are important to someone. The chances are though that you'll never come across people in your everyday life who will use anything other than "He", "She", "They" or "Ze". It's not that hard really is it?
Bottom line - be respectful and don't be a dick and you will be fine.
Nice rant, bud. I lost interest after a few lines. Claiming that someone’s lived experience is a “strawman” makes you into the internet lunatic.
You just (albeit accidentally) made a strawman out of my post/satirical rant at the end. I am a poor writer, and will take responsibility where easily misconstrued
I wasn’t insinuating that anyone on this thread was being ‘hysterical’, I was satirising the hysterics at large in social media.
Again
internet/social media reaction to absolutely everything is a supercharged offensive and counter-offensive. Strawgeddon.
Right now I am more fearful of the counteroffensive. Somewhat selfishly, as am currently counselling friend (whose family physically restrained the mother due to fear of the ‘implant’ being injected, and Mrs P, both of whom have effectively lost their closest family/family contact to internet-borne conspiracy/anti-‘wokeism’. Maybe I could also offer counsel to that neighbour who is convinced that the vast majority of UK colleges are ‘Marxist’ and she’s fearful of her child being so ‘indoctrinated’ by group-think.
But somehow I don’t get the feeling she’s open to a differing view (or even an agreed definition of the word), let alone my suggestions that right-wing echo-chambers commenting ‘baaa, baaa’ at everyone who doesn’t subscribe to their particular brand of gnashing paranoia and home-schooling, gun-toting, plandemic-ignoring reds-under-the-bed rhetoric...
... comes over as somehow hypocritical/devoid of self-awareness.
More and more Brits are identifying as Trumpists and ‘Americans’ because they are convinced that the globalistcommunistmarxinistsblacklives are making our frogs gay and locking is up for disagreeing. This does not mean that some US colleges aren’t also making a selfpwning hash of their gender policies.
Thanks internet. It may not have been wholly an American invention, but it feels wholly like an American invasion. Hysterical.
Once more, so that my words/thrust aren’t misconstrued:
internet/social media reaction to absolutely everything is a supercharged offensive and counter-offensive. Strawgeddon.
Making jokes about pronouns does not make a person “transphobic”, and using that label in an attempt to squash conversation just confirms peoples’ fears, rightly or wrongly held, about the nature of this discussion.
This.
I just feel for the teenagers out there at the moment that are confused about themselves or don’t feel they fit in to a specific gender but don’t get to go on Ellen and talk about it or have millions of followers mindlessly agreeing with everything that comes out of their gobs.
Luckily teenagers now get more support from their friends in this situation. Yes, they will have peers who will be dicks about these issues, laughing at them and making jokes about identifying as a unicorn and all that nonsense, but in the main teens today are far more open and welcoming to others who are discovering and uncovering who they are than they/we were 30 years ago.
EDIT: and people in the public eye “appearing on Ellen” is a form a support in itself. The OP is a very American/LA example that is hard for many of us to relate to, but non-binary celebs helping to bring the issue into the open, rather than ‘kept behind closed doors’, can be helpful for teens as well.
Will they now sell more singles and merch ?
Are there any other open thems in the music world ?
Will they now sell more singles and merch ?
Are there any other open thems in the music world ?
FFS You mean apart from Sam Smith, Elliot Page etc? And I don't even try and keep up with these artists.
Who knows why they came out, see my post on page 2 or 3 but even if they did it for publicity "Semi famous performer does something to generate publicity" is hardly an earth shattering headline is it?
Will they sell more? Maybe... is that a problem? Sounds more healthy than having to hide who you are in order to be able to sell your singles/merch.
More and more Brits are identifying as Trumpists and ‘Americans’
Not denying it but this is really not something I've seen/been aware of. When I was on FB I felt like a saw a lot of UKIP types who were a bit that way inclined I suppose.
People are being radicalised, quite simply. They think that's only something that happens to commies and Muslims...
Sorry I'm a cynical old goat, 47 and listen to radio 2 so not sure what's hot in the hit parade anymore.
Sam Smith, Elliot Page ? ... I was thinking more Patti Smith and Bowie
So no they aren't doing it for commercial reasons .... that's good then.
More and more Brits are identifying as Trumpists and ‘Americans’
Not denying it but this is really not something I’ve seen/been aware of
First world problems?
Here was the so-called globalist right-on PC gay agenda BBC happily baiting everyone to attack the non-binary:
It’s not quite Jeremy Kyle but if you read the comments beneath from ‘newest’ then a pattern emerges. After 5 mins reading I just seem to see a visual version white noise 😬
Sorry I’m a cynical old goat, 47 and listen to radio 2 so not sure what’s hot in the hit parade anymore.
Sam Smith, Elliot Page ? … I was thinking more Patti Smith and Bowie
So no they aren’t doing it for commercial reasons …. that’s good then.
Maybe it is for commercial reasons. So what? Their career relies on publicity.
Interesting you mentioned Bowie though. Look at the make up, hair and clothing. Is there not just the teeniest chance that if he was in his 20s now he could come out as non binary?
But of course non binary wasn't invented until 2010, before that men were men and women were women.
Except we've always been here. It's just that if I'd come out in my teens I'd have had the shit kicked out of me. Thankfully we've moved on a bit. Or at least some have.
Making jokes about pronouns does not make a person “transphobic”
I'd say it does, or at the very least ignorant. For a lot of people choosing a pronoun is a first step to getting comfortable with who they are. Making jokes about pronouns is to belittle that step.
and using that label in an attempt to squash conversation
I think this says more about you than it does about them. I don't know anyone who is going through this process (and I know about a dozen) who are in anyway attempting to use their personal journey to 'educate', squash, set a public agenda or anything 'political'. They are more than consumed trying to come to terms with themselves to have any capacity left to squash/annoy/inform or even care about the thoughts of middle aged cisgender straight white men.
More and more Brits are identifying as Trumpists and ‘Americans’ because they are convinced that the globalistcommunistmarxinistsblacklives are making our frogs gay and locking is up for disagreeing.
The number of people suscpetible to this kind of bullshit is fixed, and quite small in the UK I think.
In male mode, I’m still very much at the female end of the spectrum. I’ve not had a fight since I was about six, I’m caring and sensitive, the thought of a testosterone fuelled stag weekend with beer and strippers is my idea of hell. I love ballet and fine art.
🙄
Interesting you mentioned Bowie though.
I'd be careful of using Bowie as a role model given his alleged penchant for 13 year old girls.
Go on then, I'll bite.
I’d say it does, or at the very least ignorant. For a lot of people choosing a pronoun is a first step to getting comfortable with who they are. Making jokes about pronouns is to belittle that step.
I understand that gender identity is difficult, and even a life-long struggle for some. You are saying that pronouns form such an integral part of that, and that gender identity is such an important issue, that it gives the topic of pronoun selection special status as "something that cannot be joked about". Now that I disagree with - joking about difficult topics is exactly how we do deal with them as a society.
I have two very small kids, and occasionally in the depths of sleep deprivation make some quite dark jokes about what happened to all of the non-cute babies. I have friends that work in cancer hospitals, who tell me that the humour exhibitied is of the very blackest variety. None of those belittle the struggles that inspired them.
As a side note, I thought that pronouns weren't "chosen", but an integral part of gender identity?
I think this says more about you than it does about them. I don’t know anyone who is going through this process (and I know about a dozen) who are in anyway attempting to use their personal journey to ‘educate’, squash, set a public agenda or anything ‘political’.
You are mis-characterising what I said. I specifically said that suggesting that jokes or comments are "transphobic" is a way of squashing discussion.
‘Jokes’ suggests funny, rather than just a very tired cliched attempt to belittle the discussion. The “well, I identify as a giraffe”, or “I’d like to be addressed as Emperor rather than he/him”… I challenge anyone to actually find them funny. Yawn.
I understand that gender identity is difficult, and even a life-long struggle for some. You are saying that pronouns form such an integral part of that, and that gender identity is such an important issue, that it gives the topic of pronoun selection special status as “something that cannot be joked about”. Now that I disagree with – joking about difficult topics is exactly how we do deal with them as a society.
I have two very small kids, and occasionally in the depths of sleep deprivation make some quite dark jokes about what happened to all of the non-cute babies. I have friends that work in cancer hospitals, who tell me that the humour exhibitied is of the very blackest variety. None of those belittle the struggles that inspired them.
As a side note, I thought that pronouns weren’t “chosen”, but an integral part of gender identity?
I worked with a blind para athlete as his guide and indeed the jokes and humour between athletes with different issues at championships were very dark. It was not something the guides or other assistants engaged in however.
But take it from someone with more experience than you, dealing with the pastoral needs of people making these decisions and struggles both internally and externally with their image and their place in the world that your 'humour' is not appreciated in this instance. Maybe those further down the road could, but many can't right now. Now you know that (as you obviously didn't) it is up to you to decide what to do with it. Society at large will judge you by your response.
Making jokes about pronouns does not make a person “transphobic”,
On a point of semantics, the person may not be transphobic but the "joke" is. The premise behind the "I identify as a unicorn" and "please address me as..." type type jokes is that if "they" can identify as a gender I don't really recognise and ask to be addressed as surely I can identify as whatever fantasy I decide. The point is people who are trans aren't living in some weird fantasy and are usually making a lifelong serious decision to identify as such not to make a psuedo-political point on an internet forum. Failing to recognise that is transphobic.
and using that label in an attempt to squash conversation
Hang on, is it a conversation or a joke? A joke is a performance (usually funny although even if you found the first person funny on page 1 it was presumably less amusing for the 3rd or 4th similar crack on p4) its about the performer not the conversation.
just confirms peoples’ fears, rightly or wrongly held, about the nature of this discussion.
what fears? I don't think there's actually been any fears about a discussion. Unless people fear learning that they are perhaps neither as funny nor prejudice-free as they thought. Just like race or misogyny issues if you are "scared to discuss them" it's probably because you are going to offend other people and aren't actually listening to or understanding the issues.
Do you think that contribution helped the discussion in any way at all? Or was it just an attempt to link non binary with paedophilia?
But we also said Slugs, and Snails, and puppy dog's tails = male, and Sugar ,and Spice, and all thing's nice = female.
FTFY 😉
Well that's the point of the joke - if no-one can place limits on the number of genders and who can identify as them, then who's to say that any such statements are not valid? I think it's more a request that these things are kept at least within some bounds of the realistically and psychologically plausible.
Personally, I don't care what you identify as, but this is not even the same issue as the one of pronoun selection that started this entire thread. I can understand why someone might want to not use the pronoun they were originally given (eg, switch from "he" to "she"), or why they might not identify as either and use gender-neutral. I can also see an argument that a particular person's gender identity and associated journey is so important to them that they decide to use some new words to describe them, but frankly that doesn't make it important to anyone else. All that other people want to do (apart, mostly, from not be a dick), is be able to use some words to refer to a person in conversation. The entire point of names and personal pronouns is to be able to refer to people in conversation - I don't see why the details of a person's personal struggles and journeys need to be referenced every time, nor why a particular combination of those gets a new pronoun. For that matter, if gender-neutral is not good enough and new words are needed, why do we stop at 3rd-person pronouns? "I" is gender-neutral, and is probably the most common pronoun used by any person. It would certainly help people remember someone's pronouns when talking about them in the third person, if that person also used some derivative of those pronouns when describing themself.
As long as people are willing to live and let live, and have good intentions, almost all of this would not be an issue, if it were not for the example of a couple of places in the US where the rigid, dogmatic adherance to the rules of gender pronouns is worrying. So far all personal experiences and anecdotes in this thread have been dismissed, and in some cases, rudely belittled, and as I have not yet started my unbiased and fully-sourced thesis on the topic, I suppose we will have to wait and see.
Or was it just an attempt to link non binary with paedophilia?
Not at all. It wasn't me who brought Bowie into the conversation. It seems to me pretty obvious that choosing a renowned peadophile as an example to support your position might not be the best idea. For the record I have absolutely no problem with how people identify themselves, although I massively object to your ridiculous stereotype of 'maleness' as strip-club going, fighting neanderthals who don't like art.
... Cougar to basically insinuate that my son is either homophobic or a liar or both.
Waaaait a minute there. You've got me all wrong, I meant no such thing and I apologise sincerly if that's how it read. I'm on your side here.
All I was trying to say was that a second-hand anecdote is potentially unreliable. I didn't know you were there, this is new information (or I missed it earlier). The story as posted - that your lad had to immediately memorise 'tens' of different pronouns other than he/she in a group size of just 30 and would get kicked out if he couldn't - sounds wildly implausible unless there were other undisclosed factors. Either that or as I said - or tried to, badly - they were well-meaning but completely overreacting.
In any case, even if it did happen exactly as you say, the point I was trying to get across is that in isolation your story is a poor foundation for someone else to then be using as the basis for an argument. It's them seeing a brown cow, conluding "all cows are brown" and then getting hissy when someone tries to explain Friesians to them.
Again, if I insulted you I'm sorry, I really didn't intend to.
I’d say it does, or at the very least ignorant. For a lot of people choosing a pronoun is a first step to getting comfortable with who they are. Making jokes about pronouns is to belittle that step.
Belittle it, or normalise it?
I'll take convert's steer on this as it sounds like their nose is nearer the grindstone than mine, but I do think we need to be a little bit careful around dictating what we can and can't joke about. Making things verboten is the life blood of the 'anti-woke' far right and they'll seize it like a bulldog on a Cumberland sausage.
The issue I had with chewkw's comment was that as someone else said, jokes are supposed to be funny. If instead it elicits a response of "oh FFS, really, again?" then it's probably best kept to yourself.
I think there's a place for deprecating humour, but it should be either self-deprecating or the butt of the joke has offered that privilege. Like, if I were in an accident and lost a limb and the surgeon's opening gambit was "alright there, Stumpy?" I'd probably want to deck them; if a best friend came in and didn't say the same thing I'd be disappointed. Context (again) I suppose.
I feared the worst from the thread title but some contributors have made this an illuminating read, particular thanks to Boriselbrus for being so candid.
Regarding the Bowie thing, it made me think of this...
https://local.theonion.com/man-always-gets-little-rush-out-of-telling-people-john-1819578998
And, yes, long overdue, thank you to boriselbrus for sharing, I don't expect that was easy.
I'm fortunate enough to know many diverse people but I've not come across anyone of your particular make-up before so it was fascinating. It sorta puts me in mind a little of Eddie Izzard only, uh, more Izzard than Izzard? Self-describes as an "action transvestite," I don't think he's actually come out as gender fluid though? But he's described similar, that he has Girl days and Boy days.
Argggghhhh
And that's the whole point!
If I said to you there is a person sitting next to me who last Saturday went to watch a football match, then went to the pub, drunk 10 pints and had a fight and went to a strip club, what sort of mental picture do you have of this person? Is it male or female?
If I say my friend is a caring, sensitive person who loves ballet and art, hates sport and loves spa days and getting dressed up for a night out is your mental picture male or female?
We're indoctrinated with these stereotypes from the moment we are born. Look at boys toys and girls toys. I wanted a Barbie doll with lots of clothes to dress her in. I got an Action man with a ****ing tank!
They aren't my "ridiculous stereotypes", they are societies stereotypes. And for most people that is what defines gender. Men have penis's and behave in a certain way. But if I behave and dress in a way that is normally defined by society as normal for female, then what? If my penis then gets cut off in a freak cycling accident? Am I still male or female? Or is there something in the middle? Something less binary maybe?
About ten years ago I had a conversation with my colleagues that went like this:
"Hey boriselbrus there's a few of us going to se the new Bond film on Saturday, do you fancy it?"
"Cheers for the offer, but I'm not really into Bond - to much violence and misogyny for me, anyway I'm off to the ballet on Saturday to see Swan Lake"
"You ****ing poof. Here Rob, this queer prefers ballet to Bond! You gonna dress up in a little tutu to go are you?"
(I worked with some lovely people...)
Would that conversation have happened if I'd been female?
So spare me the crap about "my" ridiculous stereotypes. I long to live in a world where everyone can be who they want to be without feeling they have to behave and dress in the way that society expects.
And I didn't bring Bowie into the conversation either. Nor was I the one who just had to bring up alleged paedophilia. And for the record I'm not a fan of him or his music.
And, yes, long overdue, thank you to boriselbrus for sharing, I don’t expect that was easy.
I’m fortunate enough to know many diverse people but I’ve not come across anyone of your particular make-up before so it was fascinating. It sorta puts me in mind a little of Eddie Izzard only, uh, more Izzard than Izzard? Self-describes as an “action transvestite,” I don’t think he’s actually come out as gender fluid though? But he’s described similar, that he has Girl days and Boy days.
Thank you. And no it's not been easy. I've been been in tears several times whilst typing, but I need to try and help people understand. I understand that it's a massive challenge to how many have always viewed the world.
Please just be kind to each other.
Eddie Izzard is a massive heroine of mine and she has recently said she wants people to use female pronouns when referring to her, but wouldn't be too bothered if people slipped up.
I'm losing it a bit now. Probably need to take a break and watch Death Star Canteen.
Thank you.
"That's Geoff Vader that is..."
Eddie Izzard is a massive heroine of mine and she has recently said she wants people to use female pronouns when referring to her, but wouldn’t be too bothered if people slipped up.
Speaking as a big fan of Izzard, I was not aware of that so thank you. I deliberately said 'he' because I was under the impression that that was the preference, it wasn't a slip-up.
“That’s Geoff Vader that is…”
Curiously, my inner monologue always had that as "Jeff Vader."
Re the lgbtq club at the school...
Two years later nearly a quarter of her year had come along due to being LGBTQ+ Over 10% were identifying as gender queer. Young people now have the confidence to come out as who they are and generally be accepted.
That's a really interesting stat...
I've literally no idea what the background figures would be as I guess less people would openly answer on a census etc etc...
Do we reckon 25% lgbtq is kinda the global figure?
My OH is from Brighton, and clearly that area attracts a bigger %age than, say, Dorset...!
DrP
If I said to you there is a person sitting next to me who last Saturday went to watch a football match, then went to the pub, drunk 10 pints and had a fight and went to a strip club, what sort of mental picture do you have of this person?
I dunno, someone who hasn't grown up and needs some help? I get that the gender most associated with this sort of stereotype is male but as someone who confidently identifies as male and also despises that sort of behaviour (although not sure what's so controversial about attending a football match or watching sport) can you not see why I might be offended? I'm all for challenging stereotypes, but in this instance you seem to want to push this one and I don't know why.
Boris will hardly be the first here to come up with a flawed analogy. I do it like daily. The problem isn't the analogy content.
As much as you might not like the stereotype it doesn't reduce its validity. And by getting all butthurt over the stereotype you appear (and I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that it's not intentional) to be seeking to denigrate the very significant lived experiences that Boriselbrus has shared with us.
Re the lgbtq club at the school…
Do they allow everyone, LGBTQ+ but also supporters thereof? That might skew figures.
When I was at Uni I hung out quite a bit in the Multi-Faith Centre, as a confirmed atheist. Reason being a) I had a number of friends of various persuasions in there and b) they had the best coffee on campus. (-:
My OH is from Brighton, and clearly that area attracts a bigger %age than, say, Dorset…!
I wonder idly how much of that is 'a bigger percentage' and how much is a bigger percentage who are sufficiently comfortable in their environment to admit it?
(although not sure what’s so controversial about attending a football match or watching sport
It's not controversial and there is nothing wrong with watching football. It's just that only 19% of attendees at premiership matches are female.
https://premierskillsenglish.britishcouncil.org/skills/read/stories/mans-game#:~:text=They%20looked%20at%20attendance%20numbers,or%20other%20ethnic%20minority%20groups.
Let me spell it out for you. If you attend sports events, get drunk and have a fight, or go to a strip club you are overwhelmingly more likely to be male. That does not mean all men do these things or that no women or non binary do these things. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less.
So quit with the outrage or I will kill you with a tray.
As much as you might not like the stereotype it doesn’t reduce its validity.
Wow that's a dangerous game to play.
Let's play insert your own prejudices!
[...] are good at maths.
[...] don't like vaccines.
[...] are obese.
[...] are only interested in money.
[...] are good at running.
[...] are more likely to have HIV.
I'm guessing most people would put the same stereotyped groups between the tags. Does that mean a stereotype is 'valid' or does it mean it's actually pervasive, dangerous and potentially self-fulfilling?
Is "stereotypes" perhaps a discussion for a separate thread? Feels to me like it's turning into a segue too far on a topic which is fairly emotive and serious.
I wonder idly how much of that is ‘a bigger percentage’ and how much is a bigger percentage who are sufficiently comfortable in their environment to admit it?
Understandably, many people move to the area (Brighton) partly because they want to be in an environment where they can be more comfortable to “admit it”… (or more likely, not have to limit how and when they “show it”).