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For me putting a suit on feels as ridiculous as if you put on a dress. I feel naked without a bra. I need to feel makeup on my face.
Really good post. I would like to open it up though... are you saying that makeup and underwear are what make you feel like a woman?
Non Binary ?. To each their own.
Maybe they should wear a t shirt or a badge?
(Actually thought of that myself to let people know I am autistic and avoid the problems!)
HA! cant fool me with that one. Im also autistic and also thought of a t shirt stating such. But the reasons for it can only be not to get out of situations before they happen but as a precursor to get into situations deliberately . An excuse or get out of jail free card if you will.
Non binary ? well speaking from the autistic spectrum, I couldnt give a toss one way or the other. Black white male female orange blue,green or spoon, its all the same to me.
It’s a bit of a dick move, but you have the right to be a dick.
Careful there. But well put.
Progress was being made in Europe as regards not trying to divide everyone into one of two immutable categories, and then the real fascists came along and burned books, burned down buildings, smashed skulls… that sort of thing. Not really the same thing, is it.
It is fascism when people have lost jobs, been publicly shamed, even threatened with violence, because they refuse to believe that a person can change there sex.
That said, I don’t understand the ‘rules’.
the "rules" for what they are worth are the simplest of simple things: If someone askes you to address them using a particular pronoun, try to remember to use it. It's exactly the same as when someone asks you you to call them Steven, rather than Steve.
It's really no more difficult or complex or life changing than that.
It’s really no more difficult or complex or life changing than that.
even simpler BE KIND.
It's a first word problem.
Re
It doesn’t, I’m trying to understand the concept of a non binary personality and why someone would want to choose it.
Please stop with this.
You've gone to great lengths to explain the issue you've faced - thank you and thats very brave and appreciated, so why would you ask me to stop asking the question? I want to learn and understand, that was the point of my first post. Are you saying I should remain ignorant? I understand your own point re "choice" but my OP was about Demi Lovato who has made a choice, and my question is to try to understand why.
ok, i withdraw the 10x or 100x worse comparison.
It's at least as bad, may be worse, let's not get hung up on metrics.
As to assuming a pronoun. Yes, can be a challenge particularly in the M or F to non-binary they/them where someone looks like a binary person but wants to be known as non-binary. Less so in the case of my son for example, he wears a binder to squash his chest, and wherever possible baggy tops as well, styles as a boy, etc. He not totally convincing especially as his peer group now are all getting bigger and hairy but not totally obvious. And fully transitioned F to M particularly are indistinguishable (he's already decided he's growing a beard, to his mum's annoyance) So unless completely socially unaware, you might think 'I think that's a TG boy' than 'why's that girl wearing boy's clothes' and then either be crippled by fear of assuming wrong, or do what would be acceptable and ask.
I'm obvs quite aware now (don't say woke) so by choice my email signature specifies he/him. A few of my colleagues asked about it and I explained (nothing to hide after all, I'm so proud of my boy every day) and now also include their pronouns. It's fine if they don't, it's a choice, at least they are a bit more aware to not assume.
are you saying that makeup and underwear are what make you feel like a woman?
Let's be clear. Only Shania Twain knows what that feels like.
It’s a first word problem.
I think that's to treat it with a distain it doesn't deserve, and to exclude all other societies around the world, both present and historic who've managed to over come it. As @5plusn8 identifies, it's as simple as being kind to each other.
Where`s that superman "missed the joke" gif when you need it LOL
Kryton57
Full Member
You’ve gone to great lengths to explain the issue you’ve faced – thank you and thats very brave and appreciated, so why would you ask me to stop asking the question? I want to learn and understand, that was the point of my first post. Are you saying I should remain ignorant? I understand your own point re “choice” but my OP was about Demi Lovato who has made a choice, and my question is to try to understand why.
Maybe read some of the posts again. The only choice they've made is the way it's been announced, there was no decision to be non-binary. Possibly a realisation, but not a choice. Did you choose your own personality?
Ignore - mis-quoted the witty comment
I don’t want to be a dick, and I’ll call you whatever you like, but don’t make forgetting someone’s pronouns such a big deal.
The difference is, there is a gulf between genuinely forgetting and being wilfully obtuse. The former is an understandable accident, we're in new territory here; the latter is being a dick.
And whilst I agree that overreacting isn't necessarily helpful, sometimes you have to overreach before settling into a new normal.
my OP was about Demi Lovato who has made a choice, and my question is to try to understand why.
The 'choice' they've made isn't to become non-binary, it's to publicly admit it.
... I mean, I don't know them from a hole in the ground so sure, it could just be a big publicity stunt. But it's unlikely and if it is then they're not representative of people like Jon's lad.
the “rules” for what they are worth are the simplest of simple things: If someone askes you to address them using a particular pronoun, try to remember to use it. It’s exactly the same as when someone asks you you to call them Steven, rather than Steve.
It’s really no more difficult or complex or life changing than that.
even simpler BE KIND.
No I get that, I don't understand how some, for want of a better term, things, a socially acceptable to ask, and some aren't.
If you are trans, for example, it's acceptable to be addressed as your chosen/correct gender. You're free to be want to want to be, or feel you are, but it's not acceptable to asked to be accepted as another Race, or ask not to be defined by your age.
Are we just not progressive enough to accept people are born into the wrong race, or shouldn't be defined by their DOB? Or are those things off the table?
The difference is, there is a gulf between genuinely forgetting and being wilfully obtuse. The former is an understandable accident, we’re in new territory here; the latter is being a dick.
For the sake of debate, isn't demanding to be addressed in certain way a dick move in itself?
This won’t be a publicly popular opinion.
Of course it won't. Because it's bollocks that you've just invented, with a side order of confirmation bias. The people you notice are the ones who are being most vocal, well who'd have ****ing seen that one coming.
I see the same one-upmanship pish being a vegetarian so I agree that this is definitely a thing, there will always be one shouty moron for whom veganism isn't extreme enough and they're now on a raw food diet or a fruitarian or are existing on a diet of anally-ingested yogurt.* This in turn is unhelpful because it gives the "yes but bacon" brigade - the majority of the populace** - ammunition to give people like me a hard time when all I want is to eat my lunch in peace.
But you really, really need to get a grasp of the fact that these sorts of people are outliers. We hate them probably more than you do. I've said for years that in any demographic it's a vocal minority which give the rest a bad name. Your post is little removed from saying "well, I want to support Muslims, but I can't get past the fact that the ones I keep hearing about are all suicide bombers".
(* - I tried this once, I got completely mullered)
(** - See how easy it is to make unsupported rash generalisations? Did anyone even notice?)
But don’t EVER tell me it’s a * choice because no-one would ever * choose to live with this.
It does indeed sound distressing so I'm sorry you have to go through this. I guess a lot of people (myself included) have a strong gendered self-identity and it's very difficult to put themselves in your shoes. I suppose that has potential therefore to cause conflict.
What I wanted to ask, though: Is there is a 'choice' insofar as someone can choose to announce that they would like to be referred to as they/them vs continuing as they are?
I appreciate that perhaps in the real (non-celebrity) world, people may just quietly mention this to friends/family/co-workers rather than make an announcement. Whereas, if you are famous, people you don't know are talking / writing about you so it makes sense to make a 'to whom it may concern' statement. The downside is that people seem to interpret it like this:
It does rather too often come across as screamers seeking attention
(^^^ I completely disagree, by the way)
(** – See how easy it is to make unsupported rash generalisations? Did anyone even notice?)
Yeah, like how some people think all bacon is the same. It's even rasher generalisation.
Tell that to LGBTQ+ people looking for acceptance in developing countries
I didn't say first world.
(FWIW, I thought the "first word" gag was funny.)
but don’t make forgetting someone’s pronouns such a big deal.
It is, to the people involved a lot of the time. And many of those that say it isn't, are trying to not make you uncomfortable.
@boriselbrus - thanks for your post.
For the sake of debate, isn’t demanding to be addressed in certain way a dick move in itself?
Do you demand ( request ) to be addressed in a certain way?
“missed the joke”
I missed it as well! Very nice work BigJohn.
P-Jay
Free Member
For the sake of debate, isn’t demanding to be addressed in certain way a dick move in itself?
Nope, unless its done in a ****y manner. Doctors have been demanding the correct title since forever, with little issue
For the sake of debate, isn’t demanding to be addressed in certain way a dick move in itself?
Interesting choice of words, I see your land mine there.
"Demanding," arguably yes. I don't have a right to demand how you speak so long as you're not breaking the law.
"Requesting," however... If I request that you call me Rodney and you persist in calling me Dave despite my request, well, you're perfectly within your rights to do so but which one of us is now the dick?
There is... wait, this is another post.
(FWIW, I thought the “first word” gag was funny.)
I missed it entirely, apologies @BigJohn will read more closely next time 😳
For the sake of debate, isn’t demanding to be addressed in certain way a dick move in itself?
No, it's a demand. If I insisted on calling you 'Steve' and you said 'please don't call me that' and I continued to do it knowing you didn't want me to, who's the dick?
It does rather too often come across as screamers seeking attention
The people you hear about are probably celebs, and they might well be attention seekers because they've decided to become celebs at some point.
I know several people who are non binary and they are mostly shy and about as far from attention seeking as you can get. In fact, it takes courage to come out as non-binary.
Why would it take courage to be yourself, I wonder? Because of people dismissing them as attention seeking or invalidating their feelings. What a sad position to be in. So do something positive, and stop invalidating people.
For what it's worth, I'm CIS gender and don't mind, but I've always had people constantly invalidate my feelings my whole life, and it's shit.
Offence.
There is a comedian by the name of Steve Hughes who does a sketch about "offence". It's all over YouTube and I suggest you watch it. Go do it now, I'll wait.
Back? Good. There's a meme from the Stephen of Fry which makes much the same point as our Antipodean comic, and whilst I wholeheartedly agree with them they both miss something crucial.
The crux of their argument is thus: you don't have the right to not be offended. "I was offended!" - well so what, be offended, no-one died. And they're right, a person chooses whether or not to take offence at something. But.
This does not cancel out the concept of being offensive. If you're offending someone, either accidentally or intentionally, then you can weigh up the pros and cons of why they claim they're offended and you are left with two options. You can decide that they're being unreasonable or over-sensitive, which may well be the case; or you can decide that hey, I didn't realise, I'll try to change my behaviour in future.
And, is "please don't call me a girl" such a big ask? Does it have such an impact on your own life?
I appreciate that perhaps in the real (non-celebrity) world, people may just quietly mention this to friends/family/co-workers rather than make an announcement.
This is not the same as 'screamers seeking attention' and this is a proxy statement on behalf of my son rather than true experience - but having made the decision to come out and socially transition, he wants everyone to know and accept him as he sees himself. It might be an age / maturity thing that people that deliberately or accidentally misgender him REALLY chip away at him; maybe an older or more mature person is better at laughing it off (and then going home and crying)
Having been uncomfortable in their skin since about 7 or 8, really expressing that around the onset of puberty* and then starting to really transition around 13-14 having taken the big breath and brave step he now just wants it all done asap.
* can of worms, we thought it was 'a phase, they'll come round when they get a bit older....' - I feel absolutely regretful we did not support more actively at the time. If we could have started puberty blockers for example, that would have avoided a lot of other issues (and who knows, created some more)
Edit: beaten to it 😤
I read about a musician recently who was non-binary and the article rabitted on about 'they'. All the time there was me thinking a band was being described, not a musician. Simple person woz confuzed.
The people you hear about are probably celebs, and they might well be attention seekers because they’ve decided to become celebs at some point.
I know several people who are non binary and they are mostly shy and about as far from attention seeking as you can get. In fact, it takes courage to come out as non-binary.
Why would it take courage to be yourself, I wonder?
Because there aren't many celebs doing so, showing that it's OK?
Where's that ironyometer GIF, I'm sure I had it here somewhere...
Because there aren’t many celebs doing so, showing that it’s OK?
Where’s that ironyometer GIF, I’m sure I had it here somewhere…
Do you disagree that people being dismissive of your feelings makes it harder to make them known?
(FWIW, I thought the “first word” gag was funny.)
Making rasher generalisations about bacon was even better
Simple person woz confuzed.
Then I'm very happy that we've been able to clear up your confusion. That's a positive outcome from the thread at least.
Do you disagree that people being dismissive of your feelings makes it harder to make them known?
There's two many double negatives in that sentence for me to parse it so I don't know how to answer.
For the sake of clarity though, I wasn't saying you were being ironic Mols. Rather I thought it ironic that the attention-seeking thing some people are complaining about (myself included, indirectly) might actually need to be more prevalent rather than less in order to provide reassurance to regular folk. Does that help?
With reference to the moving post earlier: pre-Internet and thinking they were the only one in the world, how hard must that have been on top of everything else they were trying to deal with?
Making rasher generalisations about bacon was even better
God damn, how did I miss that one? Well played.
For the sake of clarity though, I wasn’t saying you were being ironic Mols. Rather I thought it ironic that the attention-seeking thing some people are complaining (myself included, indirectly) about might actually need to be more prevalent rather than less in order to provide reassurance to regular folk.
Oh yes I see what you mean.
All the time there was me thinking a band was being described, not a musician.
That's a strange example. Because lots of "bands" are really just one person using a nom de plume. So using "they" doesn't on its own rule out a solo artist when writing about music, and I don't think it really ever has.
you don’t have the right to not be offended. “I was offended!” – well so what, be offended, no-one died. And they’re right, a person chooses whether or not to take offence at something. But.
This does not cancel out the concept of being offensive.
You're preaching to the choir, throughout that entire reply you made. What do you make of the situation in some parts of the US (and in most places of higher education there), where not instantly memorising tens of unique pronouns on first meeting is cause for exclusion? I know we all love to decry the dreaded "slippery slope" argument, but that's where we're going unless we decide some level of social compact.
It doesn’t, I’m trying to understand the concept of a non binary personality and why someone would want to choose it.
Its not a personality.
Its not a choice.
I posted it so I might learn something, I didn’t expected to get criticised for deliberately trying educate myself.
Hopefully you've not only learned a little about non-binary gender identity but also about your choice of language and how it might offend. Even better if you've learned about ways to educate yourself.
There’s nothing wrong with asking questions about something you don’t know, don’t assume everyone has some kind of nasty agenda.
I think if you read the thread as a neutral party you might conclude that your repeated choice of clumsy language probably gives the impression of someone with at least an unconscious agenda, or unwilling to learn!
Why then would someone with past mental issues do something so profound to further damage themselves if it didn’t have some kind of benefit, even if that was comfort?
Ignoring the real possibility that this does help them with their challenges, presumably you are not so out of touch with mental health to know that people often do things which harm themselves.
No, it’s a demand. If I insisted on calling you ‘Steve’ and you said ‘please don’t call me that’ and I continued to do it knowing you didn’t want me to, who’s the dick?
So, on the basis my real name is actually Steve, and forever and a day I really like to not identify myself as Kryton57 (because I typed my email address in the wrong box when I subscribed to the forum many years ago) then STW should provide me with right to change my user name so I can identify myself in the way I feel I should?
I'm out BTW, I thought I asked a simple question and my learn something from the responses, other than feeling like I don't even know how to express myself in a short paragraph without being flamed over every word, I've learned very little from this thread. I might read it again another time to see if I can improve upon that.
Maybe they should wear a t shirt or a badge?
You do know that in many workplaces having this on ID tags/lanyards is very common? As is having it in email signatures. People who complain about it are usually the same people who think woke is an insult.
Back? Good. There’s a meme from the Stephen of Fry which makes much the same point as our Antipodean comic, and whilst I wholeheartedly agree with them they both miss something crucial.
Sorry Cougar but it is you who is missing something crucial. You are mistaking comedy for intellectual debate.
5plusn8
Free Member
It’s really no more difficult or complex or life changing than that.even simpler BE KIND.
Thank you. That's all I want or need.
@kryton57 I really don't want to fall out with anyone and I appreciate you are trying to educate yourself, but are you asking if it's a choice to be non-binary or a choice to announce it?
If it's the former, then have a word with yourself. I would hope no-one would ask a gay man about "choosing" his sexuality.
If it's the latter, then I did explain in my post. I came out to my colleagues to make them more sensitive to the trans "banter" which occasionally came out, and so they wouldn't be surprised if I turned up at some point in a skirt. As far as Demi Lovato is concerned, well only why they announced it. Maybe at some point they'll turn up at an awards ceremony in a tuxedo and don't want that to be a big surprise, or maybe some tabloid has found out and is trying to blackmail them so they announced it to kill they story. Maybe they just want people to use pronouns which are acceptable to them. Or maybe it's a publicity thing, who knows.
trailwagger
Free Member
For me putting a suit on feels as ridiculous as if you put on a dress. I feel naked without a bra. I need to feel makeup on my face.Really good post. I would like to open it up though… are you saying that makeup and underwear are what make you feel like a woman?
Good question.
There is a massive spectrum along the gender lines. From Tyson Fury to Julian Clary and Nicola Adams to Sophie Ellis Bextor there is such a wide range even along each "gender". I'm not aware of any of the above identifying as anything other than "male" or "female", yet how they express themselves and their gender differs massively. I doubt Nicola Adams evens owns a dress or make-up, yet Sophie Ellis Bextor is rarely seen in anything but.
In male mode, I'm still very much at the female end of the spectrum. I've not had a fight since I was about six, I'm caring and sensitive, the thought of a testosterone fuelled stag weekend with beer and strippers is my idea of hell. I love ballet and fine art. But when in female mode I really need to feel it and tend to over compensate and go very girly. My other half can just wear fitted jeans and a jumper and she looks and says she feels feminine. I have a friend who I've never seen wear anything other than skirts, dresses and make-up because that's what femininity is to her. For me that's what my feminine side requires. I probably look ridiculous, but it FEELS right, it feels like I'm being me and I don't feel like I'm living a lie. This, with the help of my fantastic partner is something I'm accepting now after 40 odd years of hating myself and suffering massive depression. I still don't like myself at all, I go through long periods of self loathing but I'm slowly getting there I think.
I'll never come out to my family though, Dad died last year and Mum is confused enough about life as it is without me rocking up to visit her wearing a dress!
I do wish I'd been born 30 years later though. My partners daughter started a queer club when at high school as she identifies as gay/non binary. (She's been a massive help to me BTW). When she set it up there was only her and the other out lesbian. Two years later nearly a quarter of her year had come along due to being LGBTQ+ Over 10% were identifying as gender queer. Young people now have the confidence to come out as who they are and generally be accepted. In her social group of around 20, more than half the "lads" wear skirts or gender non specific clothing regularly. Like it or not, it's going to be a common sight everywhere soon.
Conversations like this thread do help on the whole. There are some knuckle draggers on here for sure, and some user names freak me out when they appear due to comments they've made on other threads, but the consensus is usually one of empathy along with understandable curiosity and the Neanderthals tend to get beaten down.
If you see me out in a skirt, just be nice and don't beat me up, I do enough of that to myself.
You are mistaking comedy for intellectual debate.
Comedy is how intellectuals are able to discuss controversial topics, by screening discomfort with laughter. I doubt many people could take on Fry on any topic, and he would still make everyone else in the room laugh.
Actually I'll say one more thing @Poly; You're posting in a thread with an overall theme of peoples sensitivities, mental and other issues which you by implication agree as sensitive subjects. So you post:
your repeated choice of clumsy language probably gives the impression of someone with at least an unconscious agenda, or unwilling to learn
Whether my language is clumsy or otherwise, maybe you should respond with some sensitivity. On the basis of "unwilling to learn", 3 times now I responded that I posted the OP because I wanted to learn about this. Therefore I can conclude you're deliberately intending to criticise me and ignorant to the context surrounding the very issue that I'm posting about. Congratulations in contradicting yourself.
Congratulations in contradicting yourself.
This is STW, almost mandatory in any argument! In fact the more 'controversial' the subject, the more irrational the arguments seem to become.
@boriselbus - neither, I thought you were asking me to stop asking questions, and didn't understand why you'd ask me to bury my head in the sand.
Not sure if anyone has mentioned it, but apparently they're discussing adding 'Iel' as a gender neutral pronoun in French, although given that nearly every pronoun, noun and adjective has to be sexed, not really sure how its going to work as you'd have to make a semi arbitrary decision about what to do with the rest of the sentence as well.
3 times now I responded that I posted the OP because I wanted to learn about this.
...
I’ve learned very little from this thread.
I've no idea how sincere you are being. But from where I'm sitting you've asked questions and received fairly clear and eloquent answers. There's been very little "flaming" beyond you being called out for ignoring the advice people have given you.
Do you want to learn, or do you want to have a tantrum about answers you don't like? Because there's some good stuff here.
Whether my language is clumsy or otherwise, maybe you should respond with some sensitivity. On the basis of “unwilling to learn”, 3 times now I responded that I posted the OP because I wanted to learn about this.
I’ve learned very little from this thread
I'd hope you've learned:
1. Gender identities are not a personality
2. Gender identities are not a choice
3. Someone coming "out" in terms of a gender identity is not necessarily seeking to make an advantage
4. Trying to find out about a wider question by specifically referring to one celebrity might not be the best way
5. Trying to find out about an issue you must have appreciated was going to be controversial by starting a thread on STW is probably not the best way
6. If you do want to "learn" about a controversial topic - perhaps say so in post 1 not on the third page after you've stirred up a debate
7. Gender identity and mental health may be linked
8. People with mental health issues don't only do things that make themselves better
Yes I was being blunt; sometimes you have to be to get people to pay attention.
It really is a first world problem though and there are more important things that should be news worthy.
This.
We're worried about upsetting some poxy celeb whilst there are missiles being fired at blocks of flats by Israelis.
Oh do **** off, you odious insensitive little person.
What do you make of the situation in some parts of the US (and in most places of higher education there), where not instantly memorising tens of unique pronouns on first meeting is cause for exclusion?
Well the first thing I make of it is, substantiate your claim. What parts of the US? Which educational establishments, name one. Which pronouns, do "tens" even exist? Or is this once again just another stick to batter and demonise an already oppressed minority? So what I make of it is "it never happened, prove me wrong" because I've provided as much evidence as you have.
The second thing I make of it is, if it is true, then it's idiocy of the highest order and does no-one any favours. But I refer you to my previous comment about shouty morons, these people aren't representative of the greater populace.
I know we all love to decry the dreaded “slippery slope” argument, but that’s where we’re going unless we decide some level of social compact.
The third thing I make of it is that this isn't a slippery slope, it's a non sequitur.
Do you want to learn, or do you want to have a tantrum about answers you don’t like? Because there’s some good stuff here.
This.
It really is a first world problem though and there are more important things that should be news worthy.
This.
We’re worried about upsetting some poxy celeb whilst there are missiles being fired at blocks of flats by Israelis.
Do you post this on every thread on here? "You're worried about sourcing a rocker arm spacer when climate change is such an issue?"
Alpin to a victim of a vicious assault: 'yeah well that's nothing you should see what's happening in Israel'.
What do you make of the situation in some parts of the US (and in most places of higher education there), where not instantly memorising tens of unique pronouns on first meeting is cause for exclusion?
Citation needed. That sounds like BS to me.
Do you want to learn, or do you want to have a tantrum about answers you don’t like? Because there’s some good stuff here.
This.
This may be correct - I'm only "having a tantrum" at the personal sleights. And again here we are with inflammatory and unnecessary language quite openly and deliberately aimed at an individual - not a question of writing style at all. And yes I use some myself a few posts ago for which I won't apologise because the person I'm aiming that at clearly has a personal agenda.
Such fragility...
I’m only “having a tantrum” at the personal sleights. And again here we are with inflammatory and unnecessary language quite openly and deliberately aimed at an individual
You do realise don't you, this is the very concept you were initially claiming that you didn't understand? People using words that you don't like?
Well the first thing I make of it is, substantiate your claim
One of the posters in this thread shared the experiences of their son, who attended some US-based university courses. Due the aforementioned situation with pronouns, they preferred to just not speak. I used the word "tens", because there were thirty people in the group in question. The person in question was required to instantly memorise the gender pronouns of 30 people - I was referring to the number of people, not of pronouns (although that number is also quite large, and also unquestionable).
singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/non-binary/page/2/#post-11889437
I've also lived in one of the more liberal parts of the US for a few years, and can confirm that this is quite widespread. Here's the guide from California State University:
https://www.csun.edu/pride/pronounsmatter
It has a non-exhaustive list of the 27 most common pronouns, and some FAQS on how they should be used.
So far, we have followed in the progressive footsteps of the US, and unless we reach some form of social compact along the lines of "live and let live", mis-using pronouns for any reason will become a reason for exclusion (it has been a pretty reasonable discussion in this thread, but some commenters are definitley more on that end of the scale).
This may be correct – I’m only “having a tantrum” at the personal sleights. And again here we are with inflammatory and unnecessary language quite openly and deliberately aimed at an individual
This may be because this is page 4 of:
from where I’m sitting you’ve asked questions and received fairly clear and eloquent answers. There’s been very little “flaming” beyond you being called out for ignoring the advice people have given you.
Which pronouns, do “tens” even exist?
Unfortunately yes. New York legally recognizes 31 (maybe more by now, this was 2017 data). It also has laws backed up by punitive fines of hundreds of thousands of dollars for refusing to refer to someone by their preferred pronoun.
@Kryton57 my comment about being a dick was not aimed at you, it was a response to P-Jay's apparently hypothetical comment about it being a dick move, which is why I used the word in my response.
I have no intention to flame you.
It also has laws backed up by punitive fines of hundreds of thousands of dollars for refusing to refer to someone by their preferred pronoun.
Refusing to do it is not the same as constantly forgetting.
Refusing to do it is not the same as constantly forgetting.
how do you tell the difference?
The person in question was required to instantly memorise the gender pronouns of 30 people –
Some things spring to mind, Don't teachers have to do this with names anyway? Aren't the majority of students in a class going to be him/her? for the others, don't worry/apologise/get on with life. when/if you get it wrong. I don't think anyone has the expectation that everyone is going to get it right 100% of the time. Do they?
I get that there are a bunch of these sorts of pronouns being road tested right now, zhe, per, xe, which makes it slightly more complicated I guess, but some of those will doubtless fall away.
I’m not aware of any of the above identifying as anything other than “male” or “female”, yet how they express themselves and their gender differs massively
So are you suggesting that any of those people using male or female should reconsider?
Sorry, not sure how best toword that question!
I genuinely don't see a link between peoples gender and how they express themselves. Certainly anyone I've ever met in my walk of life. What has always stood out to me is how a person conducts themselves, not based on whether they are male or female.
Must admit, I'm none the wiser after 3 pages myself in regards to how people are handling this.
One of the posters in this thread shared the experiences of their son, who attended some US-based university courses. Due the aforementioned situation with pronouns, they preferred to just not speak.
So, an unverifiable second-hand anecdote from one person, then.
Yes, as presented the situation is ludicrous, as would say a requirement to remember everyone's name. But it's a group of thirty people, realistically how many wide and diverse personal pronoun preferences do you think there were likely to be beyond he/him and she/her in a group that size? The only way there were "tens of different pronouns to remember" is if the poster's son was attending an LGBT+ conference. And if that's the case, get a pen.
Here’s the guide from California State University:
Well, IMHO that's ridiculous too, we already have perfectly functional words (them / they) without needing to create new ones. But in any case, where does that say that "not instantly memorising tens of unique pronouns on first meeting is cause for exclusion?" It's just asking for people to be nice to each other.
So far, we have followed in the progressive footsteps of the US,
That's not a sentence I ever thought I'd read. (-:
unless we reach some form of social compact along the lines of “live and let live”, mis-using pronouns for any reason will become a reason for exclusion
At the risk of repeating myself: no it won't. Prove me wrong.
The only thing we have to go on so far is seemingly "someone's son allegedly felt a bit uncomfortable in the presence of a non-binary person and didn't know what to say so kept quiet."
I don’t think anyone has the expectation that everyone is going to get it right 100% of the time. Do they?
You'd hope so, but that didn't seem like the case in the case of the previous poster's son.
"Everyone else had to note/use them correctly or were asked to leave."
In my experience of US Progressive culture, that's not at all surprising.
The problem we have here is, really, that you're hanging your hat on someone else's post when it's entirely possible that that someone else is talking bollocks.
And I don't mean that disrespectfully, it could well be posted in good faith. But our sole evidence for your argument is someone on the Internet's son going "hey dad, you'll never guess what happened today..." and I don't consider that to be an authoritative source. Sorry.
From the FAQ in the link you posted:
What if I make a mistake?
It happens. We all make mistakes! We recommend using R.A.M. (Relax, Apologize, Move on). The trans community often shoulder the burden of alleviating embarrassment and hurt feelings of cisgender individuals. Don’t excessively apologize or make it about yourself or how hard it is for you to learn new pronouns. Simply apologize, do better, and use the correct pronoun the next time.
RM.
It's possible, but the story would not surprise me at all, having lived in the US for a while. I'd drag my wife on here to share stories of her time in US University, but she has better things to do than argue on the internet.
So we can agree - tens of pronouns is silly, and the usual latitude for honest mistakes and human error is expected.
I'm guessing its all too late now for a Demi Lovato / Danny DeVito zinger
this is the very concept you were initially claiming that you didn’t understand? People using words that you don’t like?
Thats incorrect. I never claimed DM was asking to be identified as non binary because people were using words she "didn't like".
The problem is pronouns altogether. Just bin them off and refer to people only by their name of choice.
the usual latitude for honest mistakes and human error is expected
Just about everyone in this thread has said that everyone will error and make mistakes. And it's been said, many times, it's the behaviour that happens after you find out what is expected/hoped for that really matters. There are two routes... make the effort to try and get it right from there on in, with everyone accepting that you'll still slip up. Or say that you shouldn't have to accommodate people, because... 1%... it's too hard... they're attention seeking... I'm a dick... whatever.
It’s possible, but the story would not surprise me at all
Plenty of things don't surprise me either, but making things up to argue against them doesn't help anyone, it just further "others" people.
So we can agree – tens of pronouns is silly, and the usual latitude for honest mistakes and human error is expected.
In my opinion, yes. But as a (god I hate this term also, but here we are) 'cisgender' person my opinion doesn't really matter.
That said, whilst we're holding up anecdotes as evidence, I've moved in many interesting circles over the years and I almost certainly know more people who are variously 'unconventional' or 'different' than the majority of other readers do, and I've come across someone wanting to use new words (specifically 'zie/zer' in this anecdote) precisely once.
I would rather suspect that anyone screaming that this is an actual real problem wants it to be a problem, it's all a bit Muslims banning Christmas / political correctness gorn mayd.
Thats incorrect. I never claimed DM was asking to be identified as non binary because people were using words she “didn’t like”.
And that's not what I said.
Thats incorrect. I never claimed DM was asking to be identified as non binary because people were using words she “didn’t like”.
4 pages in and you’re still referring to the subject matter as “she” - really?