[Closed] Non Binary...

Second post to remove the cloak of invisibility...

I. B.  T.   L

advantage? They just dont feel they are simply one of the other, so "they" covers everything, which (you'd like to think) is easy for everyone

Someone needs to explain to me why this is an advantage for someone

They have rejected the 'normality' of gender identity and retain for themselves the control of the imagine they would like to portray to the world, rather than have an imagine that is predetermined for them.

eg The world sees Demi has a woman/female whereas Demi has said "Thanks, I'd rather I made that decision myself"

which is cool with me to be honest. I look at it as just having to remember a particular pronoun for a person, it's literally no more effort than that. To that that person however it probably means a great deal more; Inclusivity, recognition, acceptance, and so on.

I look at it as just having to remember a particular pronoun for a person, it’s literally no more effort than that.

And therein lies the problem for me - I have a hard enough time remembering people's names, so the idea that I need to remember that some people have different pronouns on the pain of causing incredible and unforgivable offence is a bit too much for me.

It still baffles me why we don't just use they/them/their as our default in any case, with gendered pronouns being reserved for those who really feel they need to use them for themselves.

And therein lies the problem for me – I have a hard enough time remembering people’s names, so the idea that I need to remember that some people have different pronouns on the pain of causing incredible and unforgivable offence is a bit too much for me.

You've hit this nail on the head there; this is your problem, not theirs.

Someone needs to explain to me why this is an advantage for someone. I’d like to think I have an open mind but this has baffled me, er they TBH.

Why do you think people only do things that give them an advantage?

Why do you think people only do things that give them an advantage?

For two reasons, I don't understand why I'd do something to myself that puts me at a disadvantage in life, but also because Demi Lovato has a long history of mental illness / other issues so I've made an assumption - possibly incorrectly - that they have made this choice to provide something positive in their life, but I don't yet quite understand how.

Slightly different to the explanations given above. A friend's partner recently came out as non-binary. To them it simply means that they prefer to be something different in different relationships. They could identify as feminine, masculine or neither depending on the other person.

Oh, I do sympathise somewhat with this view - it's basically "I don't want to be a knobber".

And therein lies the problem for me – I have a hard enough time remembering people’s names, so the idea that I need to remember that some people have different pronouns on the pain of causing incredible and unforgivable offence is a bit too much for me.

And this sounds eminently sensible to me too:

It still baffles me why we don’t just use they/them/their as our default in any case, with gendered pronouns being reserved for those who really feel they need to use them for themselves.

Someone needs to explain to me why this is an advantage for someone.

<cynic> Do you really need to ask what the advantage of a celebrity getting a truck load of headlines - and increasing their appeal to a big new demographic - is? </cynic>

I need to remember that some people have different pronouns on the pain of causing incredible and unforgivable offence is a bit too much for me.

Or perhaps you are overestimating how much offence you'll cause to most people by using the wrong pro-noun. You may well irritate them, perahps even piss them off if you keep doing it, but by and large people will realise that you've just made a slip of the tongue if use the same terminology you've been using for years (ask any woman who changed their name when they got married!). There are a small number of people who will take incredible offence just as there are a small number of men called Ashley or women called Charlie who will take offence if you wrongly assume they are she or he respectively, many more will laugh it off, or even enjoy you squirm slightly trying to back out of the mistake. If it happens every day or you've been the subject of bullying because of it then you can see why people might get upset about it. If you are managing to cause incredible and unforgivable offence though I think you are going out of your way to do so, or have forgotten the simple ability to say sorry. In my experience, the people who are most angsty are those who don't apologise and then make a big deal about it.

I don't really get it, there seems to be a lot of confusion between sex and gender and this is the reaction to it. But, if she wants to refer to herself as they then that's fine as it doesn't really affect anyone else. Just don't start complaining or moaning if people don't get it and still occasionally refer to her or she on first sight. It really is a first world problem though and there are more important things that should be news worthy.

Who is Demi Lovato and why should I care?

The biggest issue I have with using they/them is that I tend to associate it with a reference to multiple people, not an individual.

Is this a problem with all languages or do some have another pronoun that is non gender specific but also only refers to an individual?

Or perhaps you are overestimating how much offence you’ll cause to most people by using the wrong pro-noun.

I appreciate the thoughtful answer, but you'll see a reply above yours where someone already directly told me that it's my problem for forgetting, and frankly I doubt that person has any horse in the race except they have a nice big stick to beat people with in online discusions.

Just to really put the cat among the pigeons - I thought that the idea of unforgivable offence being caused by using the wrong forms of address died with the aristorcracy.

 It really is a first world problem though

I don't think it is though. I was amazed when travelling to nepal a few years ago and filling in my landing form that there were 3 genders available for selection.  Not sure that's true if you fly to the UK yet

The biggest issue I have with using they/them is that I tend to associate it with a reference to multiple people, not an individual.

Singular they has existed in English for years. You almost certainly use it without realising and you've almost certainly heard it without flinching.

Do you watch Bake Off? When Paul and Mary are judging the technical challenge and don't know the contestant who baked the cake, they use singular they.

Someone needs to explain

they is no let she/her buy they/them.

to me

Can’t wait for GP’s to flip out with frustration and just have on their new patient form:

Penis: Y/N
Vagina: Y/N

Fill in as you see fit…

😂

In UK legally you can only have female or male on your passport.

Other countries are perhaps more forward thinking. Why does a passport even need a gender I don't know. Certainly it can't help with identification of a person.

Why does a passport even need a gender I don’t know.

For some reason, we have a legal gender. All other protected characteristics are based on self-identifying, but not gender. Presumably, it stems from the time that only men could own property, vote, etc.

Do you like shopping for curtains?
Yes . Woman
No. Man.
Simple

Where to start. Disclosure, my son (15) is transgender and we are having to deal with very similar every day.

I have a hard enough time remembering people’s names, so the idea that I need to remember that some people have different pronouns on the pain of causing incredible and unforgivable offence is a bit too much for me.

and

Just don’t start complaining or moaning if people don’t get it and still occasionally refer to her or she on first sight. It really is a first world problem though and there are more important things that should be news worthy.

Mainly what Poly said, but I'd also suggest trying harder. Making a small effort to be inclusive and refer to someone as they wish to be referred to does make a big difference to their self validation. Referring to my son as she or by his old name; every time it chips away at their own sense of identity. What's the worst nickname you've ever had, and remember how it feels when the bullies always called you that? Now x10 or x100

what's the advantage?

Two answers. 1/ none. It's a 'choice' that even in these enlightened times has, is, and will continue to create issues for them. IMHO no-one's doing it for shits and giggles, not even celebs. Next time he's sobbing or wishing he was dead because he can't stand the way his body has curves in the wrong places, or bleeds every four weeks, remind me to ask him why he's made this choice.

2/ because the flipside is to live in a body and identity that is not him. Or, and I live EVERY SINGLE DAY worrying about this, to not live in it at all. We try to let him have a normal life but when he says he doesn't want to come out for a walk or a bite to eat, just wants to be left alone I feel sick inside until we come back again.

Is it an 'advantage' no, no more than it's a choice.

TL;DR - if you do one thing, try and make the effort to refer to people in the identity they want. Rather than say most people will laugh it off and forgive, some might make a deal of it. WRONG. It's a big deal to them all, some might find a way to laugh it off to avoid causing you offence.

Singular they has existed in English for years. You almost certainly use it without realising and you’ve almost certainly heard it without flinching.

Yep, but it can also cause unnecessary confusion, hence my question.

Singular they has existed in English for years. You almost certainly use it without realising and you’ve almost certainly heard it without flinching.

Yep, but it can also cause unnecessary confusion, hence my question.

Can it?

My wife is Hungarian and gendered pronouns don't exist in Hungarian, there is no he or she, him or her.

As a result she used to mix up them up quite often.

thols2

Who is Demi Lovato and why should I care?

Ooh! ooh! I know this! Because on opening the thread, I wondered the same thing... and I found that they are (phew) someone who is the result of a Google search term "Who is Demi Lovato?"

theotherjonv
Full Member

Well, I think that is the only answer we need. Great post, and all the best to your son.

I use them/they a lot because I struggle to identify the gender of some of my Indian colleagues from their names.

Using the wrong pronoun when you are first talking to someone is no more likely to cause offence than mispronouncing their name or reversing first names and surnames.

Using the wrong pronoun continuously and deliberately after being told their preference is likely to cause offence. This is nothing to do gender, it is to do with treating the person with respect. A little example from about 40 years ago might help.

My mother is called Joan but when she worked in a US school as a teacher the other teachers all called her Joanie at first. This is just like changing William to Bill or Richard to Dick for them but Mum found it really grated and asked them to call her Joan. All the teachers understood and although they occasionally forgot there was only one teacher called William who continued to call her Joanie and was extremely patronising.

It came to a head in the staffroom when William called across the room "Joanie, be a sweet and get me a coffee".
Mum replied "Get it yourself Dick"
He laughed loudly and said "Bill is the correct abbreviation of William, Joanie"
She replied equally loudly "I wasn't abbreviating you name DICK"

my son (15) is transgender

Good luck to your son; being 15 is hard enough without other issues piled on top.

I teach in a 6th form college so feel like I get a little preview of what life will be like in a couple of decades time, when the current students are adults. As a student here in the 90s (with Section 28 still in force) I only heard about one out gay student and it was all a bit of a novelty. 25 years later, I walked past two lads holding hands in the corridor on my way to get lunch today and have taught loads of openly trans/nb students and it's really not a big deal.

Much like it's hard to understand why the lesbian kiss on Brookside was such a big issue, in 20 or 30 years we'll wonder about all these old duffers who struggle with pronouns.

Does Google also tell you why you should care?

Someone needs to explain to me why this is an advantage for someone.

It can be a mental issue. Someone may not see themselves fitting into their gender stereotype but the pressure of their work/family life can force them to show traits that they're not happy with. This can lead to mental health issues and further complications. It's just a way of letting people know to not expect certain things from you, similar to the A-sexual movement. At the end of the day it does no-one any harm and can have big benefits for the person concerned so I'm perfectly happy with it. Back when I was working as a grocery delivery driver I came across a few non-binary customers, they filled the online form in as Mx usually. Easy enough to just drop the Mr/Mrs/Miss/Ms when greeting them and just use their full name. I got into a discussion with one about it all after they commented how I didn't make a fuss about it, was an interesting discussion about their reasons.

Mainly what Poly said, but I’d also suggest trying harder. Making a small effort to be inclusive and refer to someone as they wish to be referred to does make a big difference to their self validation. Referring to my son as she or by his old name; every time it chips away at their own sense of identity. What’s the worst nickname you’ve ever had, and remember how it feels when the bullies always called you that? Now x10 or x100

Thanks for sharing your son's story. Referring to him (to his face) by his old name, and referring to someone using third person pronouns (which typically implies the person in question isn't present) are two different things. Like most people, I'll do my very best to get people's names right, especially when talking to them directly. After all, I'm not out to cause offence.

I think it's a stretch to conflate honest mistakes along with people who deliberately won't use the name someone prefers (as in the above stories, including abbreviations / familiarisations of people's names).

Also, I'm not sure what to make of the idea that me not "trying harder" could potentially cause 100x more offence than the most ill-intentioned bully deliberately using demeaning nicknames. My honest opinion there (which is probably going to be very unpopular) is that such a person is going to have a very hard time communicating with anyone.

Theotherjon, apologies , what is normally a light hearted quip has obviously hit a nerve.
Hope it all turns out well

@theotherjonv sympathies mate, I have that horrible feeling when leaving one of my kids alone for a short period of time and it's not good for my mental well being either.

As for the original question, just use what the person requests, it's polite and extending kindness to them.

Is this a problem with all languages or do some have another pronoun that is non gender specific but also only refers to an individual?

@scotroutes

swedish has ’hen’.
’hon’ is female, male is ’han’.

so the Doctor you have never met would be ’hen’. But Swedes are clever like that.

I say just treat everyone with respect and kindness. Live long and prosper 🖖🏼

It still baffles me why we don’t just use they/them/their as our default in any case, with gendered pronouns being reserved for those who really feel they need to use them for themselves.

Its because changing the whole pronoun structure which 99% of the population is happy with in order to suit the 1% who have a medical condition would be ridiculous.

@kryton57

For two reasons, I don’t understand why I’d do something to myself that puts me at a disadvantage in life,

1. I'm not sure how much of a disadvantage it puts them at, especially in a "media-lovey" type world.
2. Do you think that anyone who doesn't conform to some concept of normality should probably just keep it quiet so that they might not suffer any disadvantage? e.g. its OK to be gay, but you don't need to tell anyone in case you get discriminated against; or its fine if you are catholic in this highly protestant area of NI (or W of Scotland) but its probably a disadvantage, so perhaps don't tell anyone;

but also because Demi Lovato has a long history of mental illness / other issues so I’ve made an assumption – possibly incorrectly – that they have made this choice to provide something positive in their life, but I don’t yet quite understand how.

I had no idea who they were before this thread; but have you considered that feeling you are wrongly being expected by society/colleagues/friends/family to conform to some gender identity you don't associate with might contribute to your mental health issues and feeling free, supported and able to say who you are and how you feel might be liberating? I'm not sure I understand why it matters to YOU how they might benefit from being public about this, rather than just accepting that they've made a decision, probably after considerable thought about whether (a) this is an identity they associate with and (b) how the world will react to such a public announcement. I doubt they predicted that some middle-aged white IT workers on a bike forum would be debating why they would do it - but I'm sure they expected twitter abuse etc.

Whilst plenty of people decide to go public about sexuality / gender related issues at a time that suits them and when they are most comfortable about it, its also worth considering that many do it as a pre-emptive strike to prevent a former partner / friend / colleague / journalist from controlling the decision.

What’s the worst nickname you’ve ever had, and remember how it feels when the bullies always called you that? Now x10 or x100

Well, that will have me thinking about this all day now. Point so well made.

Loving WCA's story as well (making much the same point). I hope the other teachers cheered.

The otherjnv has it.
Whatever you believe, it costs nothing to be nice.
The problem here is the confusion between gender and sex. You can change one easily, the other is problematic.
I personally don't believe its possible or even scientifically/philosophically valid to say you were born in the wrong body.
I mean if I was born in the Syria, I'd be saying I should have been born in Prince Williams body, or maybe Kim Kardashians.

But I do believe in someone else's right to think this, if they want me to call them by a diff pronoun that's fine. I don't have a problem treating them as diff gender as I like to try and treat everyone the same anyway. Nobody can criticise anyone else clothes, demeanour, voice, appearance, these things should be in the past.
There are issues with retraining as humans can't help but see a boy when they want to be a girl, I think trans persons need to be accepting of these mistakes. it should be like when someone mispronounces your name, you correct them, they apologise, job done.

The hard issue comes when it encroaches on someone elses rights. To me sports, toilets/changing rooms, prisons, rape crisis centres, womens refuges etc all have a big problem accepting women who have changed their gender having previous lived experience as men. This encroaches on the rights of women who have only had lived experience as women. The solution is to have non-binary versions of these things.

It is less of an issue in FTM trans for obvs reasons. As a bloke I would not object to men who have previous experience as women in my changing rooms/sport/prison etc.

What’s the worst nickname you’ve ever had, and remember how it feels when the bullies always called you that? Now x10 or x100

I dont think thats a good comparison. Bullies are bullies because of intent.

Its because changing the whole pronoun structure which 99% of the population is happy with in order to suit the 1% who have a medical condition would be ridiculous.

Not as ridiculous as calling someone's gender identity a "medical condition"

Probably less than 1% but is it really a medical condition?

Guess you are one of those people that think homesexuality is a medical condition....

i'm not talking about intent, only impact, and asking that people try as hard as possible to avoid the impact whether deliberate or not. Apologies, did not mean to accuse of intent, or imply that making a mistake is akin to bullying.

I have sympathy with the unintentional but getting run over in an accident or a hit and run breaks bones just the same.

kelvin, nobody is going to change if you can't stop insulting them, it's basic sense.
There seems to be an easy path to fascism here, "you don't agree with me so I will insult you"
What next should he lose his job, be banned from STW?
Why don't you convince him he is wrong with all the evidence you have?

gender identity a “medical condition”

Is gender dysphoria not a medical condition then?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_dysphoria

Making mistakes is impossible to avoid. We all do it. Repeating the error on purpose, after discovering your mistake, because.... "changing the whole pronoun structure which 99% of the population is happy with in order to suit the 1% who have a medical condition would be ridiculous"... would be bullying.

I was just writing a response to Kelvin myself. Using non-binary issues to beat others online and score cheap smarta** points just demeans the whole issue. I thought that only non-binary / trans people were allowed to talk about this? Or have you been appointed their official online defence?

Just to be clear, this was about the "I don't think..." response.

Making mistakes is impossible to avoid. We all do it. Repeating the error on purpose, after discovering your mistake,

Yes, but two wrongs don't make a right.

There seems to be an easy path to fascism here

If you say so. Are you saying that I shouldn't call them something if they don't like it? If so, I entirely agree, and won't do so again. It's not respectful.

Who is Demi Lovato and why should I care?

Exactly what I was thinking. I wasn't even sure what non-binary is and I'm still not sure why its a thing.

Language & culture is dynamic

Things change, just roll with it

It still baffles me why we don’t just use they/them/their as our default in any case, with gendered pronouns being reserved for those who really feel they need to use them for themselves.

I'll be honest, until this most recent change to our 'societal norms', I think most people did, at least part of the time.

 and I’m still not sure why its a thing.

Because some folk do not identify with the gender that society defines them by. Some men would prefer to dress and act like a woman, and vise-versa, some people would prefer to behave and dress in a way that doesn't identify them as male or female. Demi Lovato has asked that folk respect her wishes to be identified as neutral rather than female.

It's a simple as that.

Live and let live.

oh, and why does there have to be an advantage +1

I’m not sure I understand why it matters to YOU

It doesn't, I'm trying to understand the concept of a non binary personality and why someone would want to choose it. I posted it so I might learn something, I didn't expected to get criticised for deliberately trying educate myself.

There's nothing wrong with asking questions about something you don't know, don't assume everyone has some kind of nasty agenda.

Re the word advantage; I'm happy to be called out on the use of that word. Why then would someone with past mental issues do something so profound to further damage themselves if it didn't have some kind of benefit, even if that was comfort? To me that would be the equivalent of me tattooing "You're a ****er" on my forehead on the basis I don't like attention and confrontation because I'd quite like t have a tattoo.

i’m not talking about intent, only impact, and asking that people try as hard as possible to avoid the impact whether deliberate or not. Apologies, did not mean to accuse of intent, or imply that making a mistake is akin to bullying.

The problem is, all outward appearances of Demi are of a woman. They look like a woman, they sound like a woman so if I didnt know them and was meeting them for the first time I may well use the wrong pronouns. If that causes them distress or offence, it is not something i can control. Unless every conversation I ever have with someone starts with "nice to meet you, what are your preferred pro-nouns?"

I’m trying to understand the concept of a non binary personality and why someone would want to choose it.

I don't think they are choosing their "personality", but are asking to be referred to and treated in a way that recognises that "personality". The "choice" is to stand up and asked to be recognised.

if I didnt know them and was meeting them for the first time I may well use the wrong pronouns.

For someone who isn't famous, most new encounters will be like this. It's what people do once they have the knowledge of how someone wants to be referred to that matters. They then have the choice of being respectful, and trying to adapt, or not.

If you say so. Are you saying that I shouldn’t call them something if they don’t like it? If so, I entirely agree, and won’t do so again. It’s not respectful.

That's not really the argument that's being made. Otherwise, I could demand to be called "His Excellency Twrch the Slayer of Trails", on the pain of being unacceptably disrespectful. The argument being made is that gendered mis-naming of someone is orders of magnitude more offensive than anything else.

Unless every conversation I ever have with someone starts with “nice to meet you, what are your preferred pro-nouns?”

Maybe they should wear a t shirt or a badge?
(Actually thought of that myself to let people know I am autistic and avoid the problems!)

I didnt know them and was meeting them for the first time I may well use the wrong pronouns. If that causes them distress or offence, it is not something i can control

Sure, but if they corrected you, and asked you to address them differently you would do so, right? So these folk aren't asking you to be a mind reader, all they're doing is asking is that once you know how to address them (either using their name or preferred pro-noun) that you do so. Simple, no?

To Trailwaggers point ^^. I didn't know Ashat from this parish appears in photography as a woman until last week, I don't think its wrong to assume Ashat aka Tasha is likely female, until she/he/they tell me otherwise.

Or is it?

Thought this was quite interesting when I was trying to understand.

Still can't fully grasp it so would welcome any better videos on it.

Unless every conversation I ever have with someone starts with “nice to meet you, what are your preferred pro-nouns?”

My son attended some remote lectures and a discussion forum at a US university and this is what they did.

All 30 students and the lecturers introduced themselves and stated their gender preferences and pronouns.

Everyone else had to note/use them correctly or were asked to leave.

He struggled with it a little and chose to observe rather than actively participate, although he got more used to it in later sessions.

 “His Excellency Twrch the Slayer of Trails”

If I may? I think you'll find, Your Excellency, that the determiner is redundant, the speaker presumes it's you already, so the correct announcement would be

"His Excellency Twrch, Slayer of Trails"

It still baffles me why we don’t just use they/them/their as our default in any case, with gendered pronouns being reserved for those who really feel they need to use them for themselves.

Probably one of the more sensible posts we're likely to see on this thread.

they have made this choice to provide something positive in their life, but I don’t yet quite understand how.

Two things.

1) The whole pronoun thing is blown out of proportion, it's a convenient stick to use to beat a minority group who have a rough enough deal as it is. But how would you feel if someone was talking about you and referred to you as "it"? And then persisted in doing so when you'd asked them not to?

I work with a lad called Steven. His name is Steven and he pathologically despises "Steve". So whilst we still slip occasionally, we try and use his preferred choice of moniker out of respect. Would you consider this to be a "choice to provide something positive in their life" worth starting a thread to discuss?

Have you never met any married women? When Miss Smith comes out as married and proclaims that she now self-identifies as Mrs Jones does this also fall outside your understanding?*

2) A famous person** making such a statement could act as a role model for other people struggling with their gender / sexuality / identity and provide support.

(* - It kinda falls outside mine actually, it feels a bit anachronistic these days. Smash the patriarchy.)

(** - I assume, I've never heard of them.)

it can also cause unnecessary confusion

It could have caused unnecessary confusion, having only been in use since the 1300s so you might've missed it. But now that you've had your misconception explained to you, if you were to continue to be confused then one can only conclude that you're doing so wilfully.

Its because changing the whole pronoun structure which 99% of the population is happy with in order to suit the 1% who have a medical condition would be ridiculous.

Yeah, madness. If we go down that road we'll be building wheelchair ramps next.

(Slippery slope, heh.)

Everyone else had to note/use them correctly or were asked to leave

Is that the future we want? How many people who use non-binary pronouns want it that rigidly enforced? No wonder your son was terrified to speak.

@nickc You might be right, but that's how you will address me! 😉

1) The whole pronoun thing is blown out of proportion, it’s a convenient stick to use to beat a minority group who have a rough enough deal as it is.

I certainly agree here, although I would argue that it's a convenient stick to beat others with, on the behalf of a minority group.

Thanks for this.  I realize now that in one of my systems we have male/female/couple used as a pronoun selector for mailings and I need to fix that even if we haven't needed it up to now.  I might even try and change the naming as it isn't really about sex but rather how they want to be addressed.

Everyone else had to note/use them correctly or were asked to leave

This is the fascism I was talking about, I think some of us can be nice, but those who are strongly opposed need to be heard, it might be painful but its a new and contentious concept.

I have absolutely no care or concern about what people do between the sheets or what they call themselves. It does rather too often come across as screamers seeking attention and is a bit of a distraction when fairly major events are occurring in the world. NB: I do know someone who has in this spirit asked to be referred to by a term I have only ever heard with reference to car paint and expensive sun glasses, that does indeed make it more memorable which might help some like me who can forget names in nanoseconds.

This is the fascism I was talking about

Progress was being made in Europe as regards not trying to divide everyone into one of two immutable categories, and then the real fascists came along and burned books, burned down buildings, smashed skulls... that sort of thing. Not really the same thing, is it.

First of all disclosure. I was AMAB (assigned male at birth) but identify at non binary/gender fluid.

It doesn’t, I’m trying to understand the concept of a non binary personality and why someone would want to choose it.

Please stop with this. It's not a choice any more than being gay is a choice. My gender issues have caused no end of mental health issues over the years including getting very close to suicide. I'm 49 now but growing up with this was horrendous. There was no internet and as far as I was concerned I was the only person in the world who suffered with this. I certainly have never made the choice to have this issue.

Let me give you an idea of what it's like. Imagine as a male you wake up tomorrow morning and you don't have a penis. You have breasts and a vagina. Imagine how wrong that would feel. You know you have to get up, get dressed and go to the office. Your wardrobe is full of "womens" clothes, "womens" underwear. Society expects you to wear make up and heels and behave in a certain way.

How does that feel? Are you happy doing this or are you going to feel like a freak all day? Will you feel confident? Will you be productive? Or are you going to feel anxious and depressed? Suicidal?

I have the opposite of this maybe 3 days out of 7. For me putting a suit on feels as ridiculous as if you put on a dress. I feel naked without a bra. I need to feel makeup on my face. But I put on my stupid man clothes and pretend to be a man for the day. And I hate myself. The other 4 days it's fine and the idea of putting on a skirt feels weird. Sometimes it flips during the day and those days are great fun. Going out in a skirt then flipping into "man" mode. Awkward. Going out in man mode and changing to woman mode. Depressing. Really, really depressing.

I didn't come out as non binary to my colleagues for "an advantage". I came out to get a degree of understanding, to stop the stupid conversations about "choice" and "ohhh today I'm going to identify as a butterfly, it's all a load of bollocks", and so if I turned up at the Christmas party in a skirt no-one would be surprised.

There is no "one size fits all". I couldn't care lass about pronouns, I just don't want to be beaten up or laughed at. Life is too hard living with it without that sort of bollocks.

But don't EVER tell me it's a ****ing choice because no-one would ever ****ing choose to live with this.

Is that the future we want?

If it helps make the world a more inclusive place then yes. I understand it feels a bit uncomfortable having to adjust the way we interact with each other but that’s how progress works.

Are you saying that I shouldn’t call them something if they don’t like it?

and

If that causes them distress or offence, it is not something i can control.

This is what it boils down to. No-one is expecting you to be psychic. However, when a preference is expressed then it's down to you what you do with that information. You can, and you're well within your rights, to ignore that request. It's a bit of a dick move, but you have the right to be a dick.

The "fascist" (really?!) example cited is simply a smaller part of "anyone being disrespectful to others will be asked to leave" and is bugger all to do with pronouns. If someone referred to an Asian gentleman by using the P-word I rather suspect that they'd have been ejected also.

I’m trying to understand the concept of a non binary personality and why someone would want to choose it.

Ah, and this is your stumbling block. It's not a choice, it's who they are. Did you wake up one day and choose (I assume, playing the odds) to be heterosexual? Fancy choosing something else next week?

The argument being made is that gendered mis-naming of someone is orders of magnitude more offensive than anything else.

Is it? By whom?

It's Wheaton's Law, is all.

I certainly agree here, although I would argue that it’s a convenient stick to beat others with, on the behalf of a minority group.

Good. Some of them need beating with it until they grow the hell up.

Is it? By whom?

It's already been suggested in this thread that it's up to 100x more offensive than "regular" bullying. We also have examples not too many comments above this one where forgetting correct pronouns on first meeting is reasonable excuse for being excluded from that meeting (in this case, presumably very expensive higher education). I doubt there were similar exclusions in place for forgetting someone's name, hence the observation that forgetting pronouns has become the same as using the most grossly offensive slurs (eg, certain racist terms).

Making the world more "inclusive" by forcing people to adhere to the rules of an arbitrary memory game, on the pain of being excluded, does not sound like it helps anyone. I say this only because the rules are so rigidly enforced - the requirement (at least in the example of US education given above) is that you instantly remember and correctly use 30 sets of possibly unique pronouns, on the pain of unforgivable offence.

I don't want to be a dick, and I'll call you whatever you like, but don't make forgetting someone's pronouns such a big deal.

So, I read the news that Demi Lovato has come out as non binary. So I get it, they is no let she/her buy they/them.

Someone needs to explain to me why this is an advantage for someone. I’d like to think I have an open mind but this has baffled me, er they TBH.

Advantage? My own opinion, for every person who truly feels they don't belong to any gender, and are willing, to at least ask people to respect that, there are 99 people who see it as a way of gaining attention, or publicity. This won't be a publicly popular opinion.

As I think others have said, They are in the midst of a very public mental health and substance misuse problem that's been going on for over a decade. It could be the case that this was brought on by Gender issues, is unrelated to gender issues, is part of a greater PR plan to build profile (they're been on every outlet that would take them for the last couple of months). Or the latest car crash in Demi's career spiral. She's been describing herself as "California Sober" recently, which supposedly means sober, but you smoke weed, but they say she's back on the gear too.

As for the recent (10 years or so) call for changes to accepted norms when it comes to sexuality and gender, my opinion has evolved from broadly in favour, to 'on the fence' to broadly against.

It's only my opinion, but I can't see past the attention seeking, the most vocal advocates seem impossible to satisfy, Bi-Sexual for example, wasn't enough, so Pan-Sexual was used, but then some people prefer Queer. At the same time people refuse to accept "people are people", do anyway with all these terms and pigeonholes and just accept people have different ideas, tastes and identities, because that robbed them of who they are.

My stance in now, people are free to call themselves what they like, this is a great step, and I will try to remember that on a 'best endeavours' basis, in other words, if I ever find myself in the company of Demi, and, after 4 decades of 2-gender thinking, call her 'She' I don't expect to be chastised for it.

That said, I don't understand the 'rules'. For example, if Demi, who (presumably) has a Womb, wishes/demands to be accepted as genderless, then why can't I as someone who'd lived for 41 years, wish/demand people accept me as a 23 year old? I've never been able to accept middle age, I hate being labelled as such, I honestly find it disgusting when people accuse me of having a mid-life crisis when I talk about Sporty Car I fancy, riding my Bike or playing a bit of Xbox, as I've done these things since I was a teenager, if not before. Why should I feel pressured by society to shave all my hair of because it's receding a bit, or worse be laughed at for caring.