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Ride in the TT and you know that the only thing that’s going to kill you is your own misjudgement
Or a mechanical. Or a person or animal on track.
See ocean going yacht racing, American football, gp f1 etc, rugby, and with the level of systematic doping pro cycling
Absolutely. And what society and individuals need to think about is where the line for acceptable levels of risk is. Nothing is risk free and life would be very dull if some risk was not acceptable. It's how much that's in question.
Someone elsewhere (and I can't verify the source) claimed that death rate per participant of this TT is higher than is typically the case for troups sent into modern war. In the UK at least that's a level of risk that requires an act of parliament, even if the troops being sent are 'mad for it'.
See ocean going yacht racing, American football, gp f1 etc, rugby
None of which have caused the deaths of five people per match or season.
Ocean racing - deaths per event - Usually none, and that can be a race spread over several months
American football - deaths per match - Zero
GP F1 - Deaths per race - Usually none.
Rugby - Are we kidding here ??
I never said they did kill five people an event, the point is people die from entertaining us;
Ocean racing - Fastnet and many others
American football, well publicised links to dementia and early deaths from repeated big hits
GP people have died proving entertainment for others
Rugby, again brain trauma through repeated head shots
All examples of sports entertainment causing serious injuries and deaths.
Fastnet isn’t a good analogy. As far as I recall, there was one race in 1979 which resulted in disaster, and that is about it as far as deaths go. After 1979 new regulations and safety features were brought in to stop it happening again. At the TT it happens year after year.
the point is people die from entertaining us;
They don't do it to entertain us.
They don’t do it to entertain us.
The post I was replying to said
“Just because you’ve got a group of people prepared to take that risk does not obligate you giving them an outlet/taking advantage of them to produce a profitable spectacle.”, in relation to the TT. My point is that plenty of other sporting events cause deaths without the hue and cry . Competitors may not compete to entertain us but that’s how the events end up.
Fastnet was one of the top of my head, google suggests ocean going racing is still reasonably dangerous. I suppose if it was easy no one would bother.
My point is that plenty of other sporting events cause deaths without the hue and cry .
In which case your choice of Rugby and American Football was unfortunate. Plenty of hue and cry. And Grand Prix too. Grand Prix of the 1970s/80s would be a better analogy - but then there was a hell of a lot of hue and cry and statics changed massively.
But again we are down to numeracy - the TT defenders are often consciously or unconsciously innumerate in their arguments. TT rider deaths don't stand out like a sore thumb just because of the violence of the deaths but by their relative frequency per participant and the seemingly metronomic regularity and inevitability of the sad news.
I’ve been to the TT once. I came away from it with the realisation that I was spectating at an event where I pretty much knew someone I was watching would die. That doesn’t sit comfortably with me, and it felt like something out of a Roman arena, so I have never been back.
The obvious comparator is other motorcycle racing events in the UK. A cursory glance at the stats shows that the relative risk for the IOM TT will be an order of magnitude higher (if not more). Since the same riders compete in both, there is some control. No other spectator sport comes remotely close for IFR. Climbing Everest is comparable.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rider_deaths_in_British_motorcycle_racing_series
Need denominators for the number of entrants at each race meet, but more people die at the TT than in a season of other racing. Comparison with other road races is also necessary. But the relative risk will make smoking look tame (and that was a famous 40x for lung cancer found by Doll)
Plenty of hue and cry.
Perhaps a little. But no one calling for them to be banned, the commercial bandwagon rolls on and on.
If highly tuned athletes want to complete in a very dangerous event, full knowing the risks they face and the price they, and pretty much them alone, could pay, not being exploited into it or forced to race I’m not in favour of a ban
I’m not in favour of a ban
Nor am I, but some transparency over the true underlying risks would not go amiss. Might do my own research.
Did anyone watch the Senior today? A cracking six laps and well worth my £15!
Very enjoyable, entertaining and fun.
Anyway...great last race for the Seniors, the 6 full laps were riveting. Cracking effort from the winner and a great duel for 3rd. I'll mention no names incase anyone is wanting to catch the race later. Really enjoyed the TT app coverage, recommend for £15. I don't think I'll go back next year but will be back someday. The only thing I'll add (again) is it's not really for anyone on here to say whether they do or do not continue, quite a bit of whataboutery with other sports and pastimes when it really comes down to whether you should be dictating the terms on how other people you don't know or understand live their lives.
I have a friend who rides the TT in side cars - Simon Smith with Dave Gristwood. Simons son Caleb is an upcoming bike racer also. Ever time I hear of a sidecar accident I worry, Simons one of these people that’s pretty fearlessly calm about speed. Not sure if Caleb (Smith) is racing the TT.
https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/solihull-schoolboy-wakes-coma-after-11598036
As a Dad also, I couldn’t deal with this.
Seems like a lot of people who run/organise/compete in the TT are akin to Brexit voters. Unlikely to change, always harking back to the past, unaware of other things around them etc.
Car racing used to be done on streets. It still is but 50 years ago it was realised this just wasn’t safe or practical and changes were made to keep the spectacle but make it safer. And despite the speeds being faster and faster the deaths and injuries have reduced. Popularity hasn’t reduced at all.
There’s so much more that could be done to make the TT safer but people seem to think that it’ll ruin the race. But the real reason is that it would cost money.
@prawny I bet you started this thread to share your enjoyment of the TT? I share it too despite the best efforts of the hand wringers!
Looking forward to the Manx now and going to catch up with the North West, the Cookstown, Tandragee and others. They have massed starts, ooh my goodness!!
I love the tt. Loved going there this year and have booked my ferry ticket for next year.
Road racing is dangerous, always has been, always will be.
Anyone see the bird strike video?
2.00 minutes in
Seems like a lot of people who run/organise/compete in the TT are akin to Brexit voters. Unlikely to change, always harking back to the past, unaware of other things around them etc.
Car racing used to be done on streets. It still is but 50 years ago it was realised this just wasn’t safe or practical and changes were made to keep the spectacle but make it safer. And despite the speeds being faster and faster the deaths and injuries have reduced. Popularity hasn’t reduced at all.
There’s so much more that could be done to make the TT safer but people seem to think that it’ll ruin the race. But the real reason is that it would cost money.
Obvious troll is obvious.
I don't mind the TT, the riders are there to race and put the hours in to learn the track, sure I read where you have to do guided laps at different speeds and it takes years to be competitive.
I have a bigger problem with rampage, one year a guy at the top was proper stressing about having to do a second run. When he found he'd won he was so relieved and "just"* rode down to the finish area.
An event where the competitors are showing relive at not having to compete is a bigger issue.
The racing the other day was great top three super close in the first lap.
* Which in itself is super human compared to most rides
Seems like a lot of people who run/organise/compete in the TT are akin to Brexit voters. Unlikely to change, always harking back to the past, unaware of other things around them etc.
Say what?! Jesus H Christ on a Fireblade, only on STW could someone bring Brexit into a thread about motorcycle racing! What a load of utter tripe!
If highly tuned athletes want to complete in a very dangerous event.
Highly tuned athletes ?? 😆 have you seen the competitors ?.
have you seen the competitors
Have a go at pushing a bike around at that speed for a few laps and let us know how you get on 😉
Anyone see the bird strike video?
happened to me at croft once, much lower speeds so it stayed in one piece
i read somewhere that one broke his visor and he ended up with bits of bird inside the helmet
Jesus @TiRed that has to be one of the worst wiki pages I've ever seen linked!!!
I've got friends in Sidecar and one that raced in Superstock and BSB until a few years ago. I closely followed the sport for several years starting in 2004 and there are several fairly high profile BSB/support races that are missing from around that time, so god only know what is missing from the preceding 70+ years.
I got asked if I was interested in passengering a sidecar a few years back. I ultimately decided no but did consider it. TT was mentioned but would have probably been unrealistic financially let alone ability wise. Driver was good friends with the father and son that passed away yesterday apparently.
Highly tuned athletes ?? 😆 have you seen the competitors ?.
Said by someone who has never riden a motorbike on track at any sort of speed let alone what these guys are capable off.
Yesterdays 6 lap senior TT was nearly 2 hours of top level finess and mental training.
These boys and girls aren't just sat on a bus going for a jolly.
Long live the TT. All you doubters go and watch football
Said by someone who has never ridden a motorbike on track at any sort of speed let alone what these guys are capable off.
Spot on 100%. you are correct I have never raced a motorcycle on a track, competitively or otherwise. Something I think could be said for the majority on this thread.
I have ridden one, though we only sped along the motorway or around the streets, popping to the pub and the shops.
Yes fit, yes probably reasonably healthy, though the latter from age, but highly tuned ?. that's a jest. 'Highly tuned athlete' is something you would say about a competitive Olympian, but not the average part time motorcycling racer.
Interesting article about how top riders train. And yes they are finely honed athletes.
Obviously amateurs like every amateur do far less. But they won't be at the front of the race.
@Tom-B I’d welcome a formal source of data for a proper academic analysis. Needs number of competitors per race, location and injuries sustained. Can you suggest a source? Such records must exist. My point was that based on a cursory reading of that list, IFR rate at the TT will be at least an order of magnitude higher than other settings. Which is hardly surprising given the setting.
I'm not sure?
That Wikipedia page has a mix of small club racing series that I've never heard of through to BSB which is the highest level series in the UK. When I followed it, BSB was run by MSV....I'd assume they'd have records for anything they've organised.
The smaller club stuff I'm not so sure.
...and I totally understand you're point re incident rates at the TT. At the risk of repeating old ground.....the increased death rate is probably part of the reason that some of them are there.
The trouble with trying to mitigate the risk to TTers is that it is basically impossible given the nature of the course. You either have the event (and other road events like it), or remove them entirely.
It's similar to something like high-altitude mountaineering, where the risks remain relatively high regardless of what you do to control them. The only difference is that it happens with thousands of onlookers and tv coverage.
Anyone who wants to get a view of the people who do this should watch Road about the Dunlop Family.
They don't race for money or fame, they don't for the most part (at the TT) race each other.
I get it whatever "it" is and see why it is almost impossible to step away from it once you are involved.
I mean what could you replace that with?
In respect to safety i know the place quite well and to be frank its as good as it going to get. The bikes are not likely to get much faster (140mph lap is looking unlikely) but this means the only way to be faster is to take more risks, which will lead to more fatalities.
It is also interesting that a steady flow of young riders continue to come along, so its not fading away.
Always lots of talk of how it shouldn't be allowed from people who don't understand the event as clearly demonstrated above. I grew up on the island, and haven't missed a TT since I moved away.
Most people on the island love it, and those that hate it can easily rent out their house for the fortnight to cover the cost of a trip somewhere warm with no motorbikes.
It's easy to look at the deaths and think "this should be banned" but the amount of volunteer marshals, spectators and oversubscription of riders shows there is no shortage of support for it.
I lost two close friends to the race in the last two TTs, so was hesitant about returning this year, but I'm glad I did.
Along with the friends that paid the ultimate price, I also have friends that still race, friends who fulfilled a lifelong ambition and then retired, and friends who are just getting into circuit racing with the ambition of accruing enough experience to eventually race the mountain circuit.
Anyone who races knows what they are getting into, and the time and effort spent building the experience and learning the course is a serious commitment.
Someone elsewhere (and I can’t verify the source) claimed that death rate per participant of this TT is higher than is typically the case for troups sent into modern war.
Thats not the TT - or even competitive motorcycling broadly - thats just motorcycling in general. A day on a motorbike carries a risk of death of 60 micromorts. A day on active duty in Afghanistan was 45 micromorts
Our attitude to 'risk of death' (and our attitude to people who risk death) changes over time - We stopped the traffic for every body being transported back from Afghanistan. Each and everyone of those fatalities was a distinct and individual tragedy - it wasnt even feasible to bring the bodies back from early 20th century battlefields because there were so many, there are no memorials to the individual soldier who died in battles prior to WW1 - in the 19th century there were companies who ground up the bodies on battlefields and sold them to us as fertiliser
But in that context - doing anything in the early 20th century carried a pretty high risk of death. The man who died during the first penicillin trials was dying because he'd scratched his nose whilst pruning roses. If you broke your leg in the early 1900s you had an 80% likelihood of dying as a result of that injury
So in that era a war in which millions of people volunteered to face a high probability was in the context of there being a pretty hiigh risk of doing anything - working, childbirth, sport - people died a lot doing all those things. In Board Racing - an effort to translate the excitement of Track Cycling to motorsport there were competitor and spectator fatalities an pretty much every race because a car or bike that left the track would go straight the banking into the stands. When the sport was stated a broken leg carried that 80% death riskI eventually fell from favour becuase it was 'perceived to be dangerous'. Thats because in that short time a broken let now carried a 80% rate of survival - the world changed but the sport hadn't so it just wasnt acceptable any more
But in an era where we're not all planning to have spare children to account to the ones that will inevitably die in infancy.... were not wrong to have a different attitude to avoidable death.
I've just returned from an amazing 8 days on the island. It was humbling to watch these highly skilled racers on the road and then to see them working on their machinery or happily talking to us punters.
I've been visiting the island since 1986 (not every year). The organisers have done so much to make the roads safer for the public but road-racing will always remain the ultimate adventure and aspiration for many, many motorcycle enthusiasts. Long may it continue.
average part time motorcycling racer.
Racing the TT IS NOT for your average motorcycle racer.
I spent 6 years racing competetively at high club level and know many tt racers, they don't just wake up in May and decide to give it a go. They'll all ready be making their plans for next year's event, training will start tomorrow.
Again, the senior is a 2 hour full on mental and physical assault on the bike with average speeds of upto 133mph, top speeds on 200mph.
Footballers play for 90mims and likely to get substituted if they get tired.
Racing the TT is not a part time hobby even for the guys finishing last.