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The wee scunner's up for a skite!
He has well muckled that one up, time for a wee skelf around the lug from his mam.
Skelp, surely Matt?
A dinnae ken Scots Wikipedia wiz actually a hing. But dinnae fash, noo that mair folk ken aboot it, we can aw mak it richt.
jings!
Crivens
Help ma boab!
Skelp, surely Matt?
Naw, he'll be gettin a skelf efter she rattles him roon the heid wi her carpet beater she keeps in the lobby press.
As someone who grew up totally unaware that I was unwittingly Speaking Ulster Scots, I don’t know whether to laugh or cry. I guess that’s the whole problem with a site that anyone ca contribute to.
As an aside, I guess it’s another amusing tale of Americans who regularly tell you “I’m Irish” or “I’m Scottish” or “I’m polish”. My automatic reaction is always “no you’re not, you’re American”. But it never seems to do any good.
I never kenned at there wis sic a thing as Scots Wikipedia. Which wis an an awfy guid thing, for noo that I dae ken aboot it, I hae taen a richt scunner tae it.
Och, ahm feelin' richt at hame hereaboots.
Wait till PC Murdoch gets his hands on him.
^ 😂
joshvegas
MemberSkelp, surely Matt
Must be getting a tiny piece of wood in his ear
A small splinter in the finger that hurts like xxxx is skelb
A skelp was usually round by the lug for being cheeky
Where I was brought up the small splinter in the finger was called a skelf.
East coast West coast, some of us have a Willy on the East and a Boaby through the West
@redmex ye'll hae tae chinge yer username tae ****adgers gin ye hae yin oan the east an another yin oan the west
Yes Mrs Kenny is east coast and I regularly have to point out how totally wrong much of what she says is. (-:
Mrs Kenny is east coast and I regularly have to point out how totally wrong
Shis nae fae thi Kingdum is shi, eh?
from his mam.
*Maw FTFY
🤦♂️
*Maw FTFY
Something about boiling your head... 🤣
Stumbled across this when i was looking at this story on Twitter
Thought it was very good, goes into the history of the Scots language and the downsides of telling most of a nation that how they speak is "wrong"
Thanks richmtb - found this fascinating - and could really relate to being told, by societal influence, that words that were normal to me were frowned upon.
Scots language
😆
Dialect.
If ah kin 99.9% unerstaun it, it's no a difrint langwij. 😆 No ma-ir how miny borried words and difrint spellins it uses.
Yon eejits at thon Guardian hiv confuddled yon translation o “an aw”. It’s “as well” in ma heid!
To be fair there isn't really any strict linguistic definition for what is a language and what is a dialect.
As the joke goes a language is a dialect with an army.
Norwegian / Danish / Swedish are pretty much mutually intelligible
Serb / Croat / Bosnian are even closer
Catalan / Castellan (High Spanish) are very similar
I think a Serb would have a better chance understanding a Bosnian than someone from Kent would have understanding Doric Scots!
“This is going to sound incredibly hyperbolic and hysterical,” wrote Ultach, “but I think this person has possibly done more damage to the Scots language than anyone else in history. They engaged in cultural vandalism on a hitherto unprecedented scale.”
FFS, some people need to get a sense of humour. It was a misguided kid ****ing around on the internet, no lasting harm done.
Aye but language develops over time it's living thing, go back 7/8/900 year and you'll not even be able to understand english.
Scots as scots speak it today, is simply a dialect of english. Going back 200 years aye there's loads of words in scots, but there's also loads of words and phrases in english that I'd struggle to understand more the further back you go and I'd imagine regional variations were probably stronger due to less literacy.
And what about all the regions variations in england as well, there'd have been many in england all with their own unique words etc. I'd struggle to understand some heavily thick english accents, are they different languages?
Yer man in the video did not grow up speaking a different language, the vast majority of the words he's even suggesting for the scots language are literally just down to accent and aren't different words at all. The "scots language" is a tributary of English I'd suggest, given the developing nature of english on this island.
I'd bet loads of english people can spell funny if they like tae and have a selection of words I've never heard..
We've been told its a dialect or accent for so long it that its becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy. Most people in Scotland do indeed speak standard English with an accent, but Scots is a different distinct thing.
Yer man in the video did not grow up speaking a different language, the vast majority of the words he’s even suggesting for the scots language are literally just down to accent and aren’t different words at all.
There are loads of Scots word that aren't just "English with a funny spelling"
Burn, crabbit, coup, dreich, hoolet, midden, gallas, glaikit, stoor, tod, guddle, scunner, skelf, bonnie, braw, ken, semmit, timorous, swither, carnaptious... Nae doot thair are hunners mair.
I'm not suggesting that we should all start speaking like Burns, but at the very least we should be able to recognise it as distinct language / dialect and eliminate the cultural cringe that has been long associated with people speaking their mother tongue in large parts of Scotland
Distinct dialect is a much as am giving ye! 😆
Catalan / Castellan (High Spanish) are very similar
Not really, Catalan is probably closer to French than Spanish. Spanish is closer to Italian and Portuguese.
Richmtb+1 Tod is a guid yin but dinnae forget the puddocks, hurcheons, kye, ettercaps, and even the flittermouse which admittedly sounds very like the german.
@Seosamh .Naebody really kens with certainty which language or dialect lent a word tae which other language or dialect.
Has anyone said 'tiny wee' like that lovely Lorraine Kelly does yet?
Its all turning into a stramash above!!
The oor willue quotes cheered me right up though.
I'd never cringe at guid Scots words and phrases.
That god awful West End accent that everyone seems to have on the other hand....
Scots as scots speak it today, is simply a dialect of english.
Arguably, Scots as Scots speak it today may be the result of gradual anglicisation of an original Scots language. I don’t know - just a suggestion.
Yer man in the video did not grow up speaking a different language, the vast majority of the words he’s even suggesting for the scots language are literally just down to accent and aren’t different words at all.
It's possible he may have been moderating his language, to some extent anyway, to remain comprehensible to his audience. Again, I don't know - just wondering.
Nae doot thair are hunners mair.
Just a quick glance at the Concise Scots Dictionary suggests you are entirely correct - hundreds, if not thousands, of words which I suspect would not be recognisable to the average reader of English, myself included.
Very interesting website here - Dictionary of the Scots Language - with some interesting comments about language versus dialect. I’m off to educate myself.
tod
I’ve read the book.
That god awful West End accent that everyone seems to have on the other hand….
Clearly you've never been to Wishy.
Arguably, Scots as Scots speak it today may be the result of gradual anglicisation of an original Scots language. I don’t know – just a suggestion.
Undoubtedly, but there were also active efforts to suppress Scots and encourage Standard English instead.
By the 1940s, the Scottish Education Department's language policy was that Scots had no value: "it is not the language of 'educated' people anywhere, and could not be described as a suitable medium of education or culture".[39] Students reverted to Scots outside the classroom, but the reversion was not complete. What occurred, and has been occurring ever since, is a process of language attrition, whereby successive generations have adopted more and more features from Standard English. This process has accelerated rapidly since widespread access to mass media in English and increased population mobility became available after the Second World War.[30]:15 It has recently taken on the nature of wholesale language shift, sometimes also termed language change, convergence or merger. By the end of the twentieth century, Scots was at an advanced stage of language death over much of Lowland Scotland.[40] Residual features of Scots are often regarded as slang.[41] A 2010 Scottish Government study of "public attitudes towards the Scots language" found that 64% of respondents (around 1,000 individuals in a representative sample of Scotland's adult population) "don't really think of Scots as a language".[42]
I'm as guilty of this language assimilation as anyone. My wife is Hungarian and has made a real effort to teach our daughter Hungarian which she is fluent in, but I've made no effort to teach her any Scots words.
That's how a language (or dialect) dies.
I met a wishyite on Lowther hill last week, a very pleasant chap he was too.
Arguably, Scots as Scots speak it today may be the result of gradual anglicisation of an original Scots language. I don’t know –
Agreed, but in the same way that old English is different thing from English. It's a result originally of the west Germanic and various other European influences and languages coming over to the uk, this would have been far from standardised, and it would have butted up against various "indigenous" languages, creating variations all over.
As I say, Imo, old Scots is a tributary to modern English, just happens that the standardisation of the English language in modern times resulted in the Southern tributaries having more impact on the language for political reasons. "Scots" has a very similar genealogy to English, in that it's influenced by European immigration etc.
I get it, but Scots today and calling it a language as it currently stands, is making up something new. Particularly when you look at silly variants like ulster scots. There's a very revisionist bent to it imo, with no real basis in history, it's almost like it's an attempt to develop a new language from current dialects. Seems off to me.
Like I say language develops over time it's not static. Scots isn't a thing anymore. Might have been 3/400 years ago. and might have developed into an entirely unique language, but the political situation on the island meant it didn't.
It's a bit like English people trying to bring back Middle english without real historical reference. if the goal is to bring back the tongue and tone of 15th/16th/17th Scotland I doubt it'll be similar.
Just my opinion and impression. I'm not an expert, would be happy for one to jump in.
ps edited my thoughts a bit.
I’d struggle to understand some heavily thick english accents, are they different languages?
Probably a few hundred years back they could have been considered as such since it wasnt just accents but different word usage.
Now though with standardised dictionaries and national media they would be mostly written the same way and just have difference in pronunciation/speed of talking and most of the unique words are vanishing.
Like coming up with the definition for species (most fit the able to have viable offspring but not all) defining dialect vs language seems rather difficult. The "has an army/political support" does seem to have a fair amount going for it as a workable definition.
I suspect if Scots had the same sort of support as Scottish Gaelic has it would quickly become agreed it was its own language although of course thats a bit circular.
I met a wishyite on Lowther hill last week, a very pleasant chap he was too.
Wishawtonian.
What was his accent like?
Btw by all means celebrate your dialect. You'll not get thicker Glaswegian/Ruglonian than I speak!
Ain't no west end bawbaggery around here! 😆
This is a fascinating subject - what constitutes a language and who decides how that language is defined.
I was told that in Switzerland, they get taught High German (what they speak in Germany) in school, and their written language is the same, but they speak Swiss German. That's basically the same as what happened in Scotland only instead of recognising it as a language like Swiss German it was called local slang and labelled wrong.
So, do you just teach Scottish kids to spell differently? I mean in English we have slang words and proper words - who defines slang? Do we just let kids use 'slang' words in school and that way let them become an official dialect? In an international world, Scottish kids would still need to learn 'English' like everyone else does, so would they have 'English' lessons?
Do we just let kids use ‘slang’ words in school and that way let them become an official dialect
If enough used it for long enough then yes it could become a dialect or maybe even a language (although for kids slang since it tends to fall out of favour reasonably quickly it probably wouldnt get that far).
There are the various creole languages which may or may not be considered a language depending on who you talk to.
So, do you just teach Scottish kids to spell differently?
This is where it gets a bit weird. There has been an effort to shrug off the "Scottish Cringe" when it comes to people speaking the dialect. But Scots now is largely a verbal tradition.
Most written Scots is historic, there are efforts to write new content in Scots (which is the whole reason for this topic coming up after all) but it's not very well organised. Some of it is brilliant - The Gruffalo in Scots is fantastic, Scots Wikipedia not so much.
Schools definitely still teach Standard English primarily but are making more of an effort to acknowledge Scots and they have stopped actively discouraging it.
I mean in English we have slang words and proper words
There's definitely slang in Scots too that's distinct from the more formal dialect. "Ah dinnae ken" is Scots, "ah huvnae a Scooby" is slang. Most native Scots speakers would recognise both but understand the distinction.
Thanks richmtb - interesting.
Residual features of Scots are often regarded as slang.
I very much recognise this - use of certain words or pronunciations were not encouraged in polite conversation, at school, &c..
Some Scots words have such a great sound to them and would probably be fun for children to learn - although, of course, your daughter may be past the age for word fun!
seosamh77 - I found this to be an interesting read:
Smith, Jeremy. (2017) Scots: an outline history. Online https://dsl.ac.uk/about-scots/an-outline-history-of-scots/
There’s definitely slang in Scots too that’s distinct from the more formal dialect. “Ah dinnae ken” is Scots, “ah huvnae a Scooby” is slang. Most native Scots speakers would recognise both but understand the distinction.
Absolutely this ... but when I was at school - sometime in the middle ages - we were discouraged from using even the more formal dialect, as you say.
Most heard phrases in Kirkcaldy Sheriff Court
Wisnae me and a de ken when asked who the perpetrator of the crime is
You lot might like this ... Oor Wullie - from The Comic Art Website.
Rona
Subscriber
seosamh77 – I found this to be an interesting read:Smith, Jeremy. (2017) Scots: an outline history. Online https://dsl.ac.uk/about-scots/an-outline-history-of-scots//blockquote >
Cheers will have a read.
I think as others have said the definition of dialect vs language is blurred, and there's clearly some political element to when each term is chosen.
Having said that, I moved to Scotland about 20 years ago, I've always been able to get by but I can sit in a pub or out and about and have a chat with someone that I know my dad at least couldn't understand. There were elements of the language even university students would use that I took a while to get used to and understand properly. There are words my girlfriend uses that I can assure you aren't English!
I think it's worth anyone who lives or works here being able to understand the locals, but at the same time the standardisation of language is something that happens in a professional context, even internationally now that English has become the language of business in so many places. It doesn't mean that you should delete the local language or dialect, but it is useful in work etc. to be able to communicate clearly with a wider range of people.
but when I was at school – sometime in the middle ages – we were discouraged from using even the more formal dialect, as you say.
Aye me an aw 😉
But there was this juxtaposition between Cultural or Historic Scots and normal speech. I remember being taught Burns in primary school and even singing "If it wisnae fur yir Wellies" but then been corrected for saying "Aye" and "Naw" even while the Scots dialect was taught in poetry and song.
Personally I have a weird relationship with Scots.
I was born in Ayrshire but moved to Australia when I was 4. We came back to Ayrshire when I was 11 and I sounded like i'd wandered in off the set of Neighbours.
When Scots was taught in school it felt like a pisstake of the Aussie boy! My accent quickly returned but I was encouraged not to use it and speak Standard English instead.
Funnily enough, I can't remember ever being taught anything at all about the Scots language / dialect. Not even Burns. I probably just wasn't paying attention. Mind you, I didn't grow up in Ayrshire.
If you had been at my school, with an Australian accent, I suspect you would have been pretty popular!
I was born and bred in Ayr and got heehaw about Burns at the schule bar a couple of lessons round about January 25 . Even that was only in first and second year, from 3rd year they started battering awa at Shakespeare and Burns's bum was oot the windae
There are definitely distinctive Scots words my family used that aren't dialect. In fact, skelf is one of them, and I still use it to this day. Some of my family hailed from the Borders so we had a smattering of Lallans too. I always took that to be a dialect of Scots but I think it's probably more closely related to some Old English.
The alternative vocabulary is one thing, but the fact that the grammar in Scots variants seems (to me) to be the same as English does rather suggest it's a dialect.
The generally accepted closet language to English is Frisian. Some examples on this page are hard to read because the transliteration seems rather like Dutch. But the english fake phonetics might seem familiar to scholars of Old English or speakers of Scots maybe?
I can't speak West Frisian well.
Myn Frysk is net sa goed.
the grammar in Scots variants seems (to me) to be the same
What's the plural of 'you' in English?
There are loads of Scots word that aren’t just “English with a funny spelling”
Quite a few are similar to Swedish and German words.
I found this thread quite fascinating and went away to look things up - here are two things I found, just in case anyone else is interested ...
This short film is a soothing massage. It’s of a lady from Shetland talking about herself and her poetry. From 8 minutes in, she recites a poem of her own … simply gorgeous (to me anyway).
This is a short film which covers the origins of the Scots language - from the Linguistics and English Language Department at the University of Edinburgh - very clear, and very interesting (to me, anyway!).
Edit - changed my mind. 🙂
What’s the plural of ‘you’ in English?
Y'all, but also 'you people' or 'you lot' or perhaps 'ye'. But that's just a word, are there any actually grammatical differences? Serious question.
There are a few subtle differences Mols but grammar is very similar to English (as you would expect)
Some of them a Scots speaker wouldn't even be aware of until they are pointed out.
Use of the definitive article can be different. "I'll do it now" becomes "I'll dae it the noo" You don't go to the beach in Summer you go in The Summer.
Word order can be different, instead of "turn the light off" in Scots you would prefer the form "Turn oot the light" Both word orders are acceptable in English or Scots but the preferences are reversed.
There's also the apocryphal tale of a speaker at a linguistics conference who points out that while there are many examples in the English language of a double negative becoming a positive there are no examples of a double positive becoming a negative. A Scottish delegate raise his hand and says "Aye, Right!"