[Closed] No such thing as a free school lunch...

Ernie, the problem is the pilot study showed no increase in better eating or health benefits, bar a reduction in eating crisps and fruit.

- Despite the changes in lunchtime food consumption, the universal pilot had few significant impacts on the reported overall consumption of different types of food

- The extended entitlement pilot had little impact on children’s diet and eating habits.

The quality of school food is far more rigourously regulated than anything you'd buy in a supermarket.

Really? Proof?

Are you seriously asking?

In Scotland (where I live), this is regulated by the Schools (Health Promotion and Nutrition) Scotland Act of 2007 with further regulations introduced in 2008.

Local authorities take this seriously - I was at my kids' school yesterday for a special P1 kids-and-parents lunch in the school cafeteria and got to see how this works close-up. We eat a very healthy diet in our house, but this is only possible because we have the advantages of adequate income, time, knowledge and an interest in food, which not everyone has.

There were a few aspects of the school lunch offering I saw yesterday that I'd perhaps change, but on the whole I thought it struck a good balance in providing nutritious, filling food that young children would want to eat. The kitchen staff came across as very engaged in what they were doing, and very clear on what the aims of the school meal are.

Now aside from hygiene standards and public health regulations on product recall, where exactly are the regulations governing food that can and can't be sold in supermarkets?

Ernie, the problem is the pilot study showed no increase in better eating or health benefits

That's not what the mayor in one of the piloted areas claimed.

EDIT From the head teacher of a piloted school :

[i]“We have moved from a position where staff spent valuable teaching time checking that pupils were given a healthy packed lunch to a position where we can be confident that almost all our pupils eat a balanced, healthy and varied lunch every school day. We are no longer looking in packed lunch boxes to only see two pieces of dry bread which was one of our most worrying observations.

“As a result our pupils are more focused and attentive in the afternoons and have a heightened awareness of the importance of making healthy choices both in what they eat and how they spend their time and exercise. Behaviour has improved and most pupils now return to afternoon classes well fed, calmer and ready to learn.”
[/i]

Each to their own. That's not proof, but I wouldn't be exposing my children to food prepared in schools.

That sounds very open-minded of you. And not at all like an ill thought through sweeping generalisation.

While asking for evidence (and getting it) from others, you seem quite happy to be basing your own opinions on something that you read in the Daily Mail, about a TV program that Jamie Oliver did a few years back. Have you actually used the word Turkey Twizzlers yet? Or are you saving that for your next post? 🙄

That's not proof, but I wouldn't be exposing my children to food prepared in schools.

Did you even bother looking at the stuff linked on the previous page?

There is an unfortunate attitude in this country that school meals are tyhe same now as they were in the 1970s & 80s.

Ahhh the old Daily Mail quote (round of applause for the dreggs of debating prowess).

There was no evidence provided, just an opinion.

Having seen and tasted school meals recently, I won't be letting my kids eat them. If you want to, you do so. Your choice. Don't take it personally.

Each to their own. That's not proof, but I wouldn't be exposing my children to food prepared in schools.

No worries, stick to making entirely uninformed remarks instead.

Just keep paying the tax.

If the mayor said that then he's not read the pilot study report and/or lying.

Read the report and make up your own mind, but the evidence for it seems flakey at best. Some minor improvements in attainment by the kids, but no evidence this was as a result of the dinners. No health benefits noted, no reported improvement in behaviour of the kids etc.

No worries, stick to making entirely uninformed remarks instead.

Having kids in school, seeing the menus, and tasting the food, its not uninformed.

Tax doesn't concern me.

Solutions:

1. Parents who want their children to have better food at school should pool together to pay to the school monthly for food upgrade.

This means others that do not have children do not have to incur more stealth tax to feed others.

2. Lower or even lower tax for single working people if the govt wants everyone to contribute to feed others' children.

3. Parents eat less or starve. Yes, you ... are you growing side ways?

4. Parents prepare the meal themselves and opt out from the school meal. Obviously the other question is can parents cook? 🙄

The bottom line as one of my colleague says ... why should he pay for others' children when he is single and being taxed to the hilt?

🙄

Having seen and tasted school meals recently, I won't be letting my kids eat them

Details...? Or I think we can all safely assume you've just made that up.

You seem very very very well informed. I eagerly await the results of your extensive research

I can hazard a guess from your general tone which party your cross goes next to. In fact, I suspect you may actually be George Osbourne. Are you? But I digress. What I'm saying is that looking at these policies, this sounds more appealing than anything I've heard from either of the other lot. I very much doubt that will change much over the next couple of weeks

Just googled school lunch menu

First school that comes up:

http://www.tameside.gov.uk/schools/meals/menu

Meat Pie
Chips
Date Shortcake
Ice-cream

Sounds healthy.. 😯

I'm going to remain optimistic, and hope that food standards in schools have increased since the 70s..

However, we've been looking at primary schools for our eldest this last couple of weeks, and I remarked to one of the heads that that very particular school smell had instantly transported me back 35 years.. She said it was because they had just had dinner

[url= http://www.totaleducationcatering.com/SchoolCatering-Welcome ]THESE PEOPLE[/url] are the most reputed external school caterers in Kent. A quick look at their menus shows the variety of food on offer & they operate under the FSA, Ofsted & Local Authority rules & regulations.

If this isn't good enough then what should they be doing?

This one looks better...

Sausage and Gravy
Baked beans
Chocolate crunch

If the mayor said that then he's not read the pilot study report and/or lying.

What do you think the chances are that the mayor didn't bother reading the pilot study report before urging the government to adopt the scheme throughout the country ? Do you think it is more likely he was publicly lying ?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10273613

And what about the observations of the head teacher in Newham, was she lying ?

http://www.newham.gov.uk/Pages/News/Government-takes-Newham%27s-lead-on-free-school-meals.aspx

The bottom line as one of my colleague says ... why should he pay for others' children when he is single and being taxed to the hilt?

Because he lives in a society.

something that you read in the Daily Mail

There are a few (iolo, 5thidiot among others) who seem to get their information from the Daily Hate.

OK, I'll try another approach. ****less, workshy parent sends offspring into school with a can of supermarket own brand energy drink and a pack of Monster Munch. Caring society offers to level the playing field in at least one area (and lets face it there are plenty areas where it ain't level) by offering all children in a certain age range a decent meal at lunch time. Assuming that the food reached LHS clinically hygienic and nutritious standards then I am failing to see a down side. Mrs C. is a teacher and she will vouch for the difference in children's behaviour after eating a balanced meal rather than being whacked out on sugar and saturated fats.

Meat Pie
Chips
Date Shortcake
Ice-cream

Sounds healthy..

..... as well as a lot of other things. So apart from selecting the worst case options of a random menu off the internet, no actual evidence then?

Not even a second hand anecdote you heard from a bloke down the pub? How disappointing 🙁

LHS - Member
Just googled school lunch menu

First school that comes up:

http://www.tameside.gov.uk/schools/meals/menu

Meat Pie
Chips
Date Shortcake
Ice-cream

Sounds healthy..

yeah protein, fruit and carbs

I expect your kids only eat organic humous soaked in hand pressed olive oil and free range lemon juice with a basil, tomato and pine nut relish?

THESE PEOPLE are the most reputed external school caterers in Kent.

and on Tuesday the menu was Sausages, Potato Wedges and Chocolate Sponge.

Should help with the obesity problem in Kent 😯

If you think that Meat Pie, Chips and Shortcake is a good lunch for your kids then that's your decision.

no really LHS id love to hear what exactly your kids are eating for lunch today?

(and in your effort to try and fudge youre point you missed out the compulsory veg section off that menu)

As you've no actual evidence then, are you sure you've got no anecdotes? Not even one?

You seem very sure of your [s]incredibly stupid ill-informed[/s] opinion.

You must have a good story you overheard at a supermarket check-out you can share with us, surely?

This thread has everything

Food
Children
Tax
Benefits

If only someone could sneak in a immigration post, it would be the perfect thread.

and on Tuesday the menu was Sausages, Potato Wedges and Chocolate Sponge.

Should help with the obesity problem in Kent

For active schoolchildren, could you explain - given your accurate knowledge of the ingredients used and methods of preparation involved in this meal - what makes this meal as unhealthy as your sarcasm appears to suggest?

Should help with the obesity problem in Kent

Diet is only part of the problem with obesity. Exercise is also a massive part and getting children into sports at a young age will help.

Tuesday the menu was Sausages, Potato Wedges and Chocolate Sponge.

Again, picking on the worst case & not mentioning the vegetables or the fruit available every day. The wedges are oven baked, not fried - as per the regs which, if you could be arsed to actually look at them, would show you how it should be. If your kid's school isn't, then they should be reported as such.

I saw an immigrant having school dinners (The halal option in this instance) at my son's school... does that help?

They do have to check their Muslamic Ray Guns in at reception though.

Binners, you seem to be very angry and rude. Not sure why.

I've given my rational, don't really need to explain anymore. As I said, it's an individual choice and i choose not to let my kids go to school and eat the school dinners.

2tyred - Member

The bottom line as one of my colleague says ... why should he pay for others' children when he is single and being taxed to the hilt?

Because he lives in a society.

But the society force him to feed others' children ... where is his human rights? 😆

LHS: [b]I've given my rational, don't really need to explain anymore[/b]. As I said, it's an individual choice and i choose not to let my kids go to school and eat the school dinners.

what makes this meal as unhealthy as your sarcasm appears to suggest?

You honestly need me to explain to you why Sausage and Chips and Chocolate cake isn't the healthiest of lunches for children?

warton - Member

This thread has everything

Food
Children
Tax
Benefits

If only someone could sneak in a immigration post, it would be the perfect thread.

You forgot parents that are growing side ways.

Nom nom nom ...
😆

In summary:

All food in schools must meet nutritional standards so that children have healthy, balanced diets.

This means there must be:
high-quality meat, poultry or oily fish
at least 2 portions of fruit and vegetables with every meal
bread, other cereals and potatoes

There can’t be:
fizzy drinks, crisps, chocolate or sweets in school meals and vending machines
more than 2 portions of deep-fried food a week

My son would miss his cherry tomatos if he had school dinners every day 🙂

Anyway, in some ways, LHS you neatly demonstrate the problem. If school dinners were free, IMO most parents (obviously not you) would take that option up and bringing in food would be unusual. As such, the kids who go in with crap food because they're fussy would be forced to eat better.

I'm all for it if the studies are genuinely evidence based. However I fear that in the next issue of Private Eye, it will be pointed out that the study was paid for by a group of school catering suppliers, or shortcomings in the methodology were ignored as the MP's pushing to get it promoted sit on the board of aforementioned companies.

Binners, you seem to be very angry and rude. Not sure why.

Its irrational I know. Apoligies. I'm a deeply flawed individual, who reacts badly when faced with a towering intellectual colossus who repeatedly out-foxes me with his perfectly constructed, evidence-based, rational arguments, backed up and delivered with wit and verve

Essentially, I'm just jealous

LHS, serious question here. What do you give your children for lunch?

Also are you saying that chips, wedges, products involving pastry / cake mix etc are strictly off limits? If your child was invited to a party, say for example a BMX party at the local velodrome or a pool party and the food afterwards was either a trip to McNasties or traditional party food then would you stop them going?

Question to LHS only please. No need for others to pitch in.

Coyote,
Based on your argument surely education of parents is required.
How many do you actually think send their kids to school with such rubbish? That falls into child abuse territory and the schools should be acting on such behaviour.

The link you provided LHS is to an academy school. Note :

[b]"Academies are not required to comply with the national school food standards"[/b]

And :

[b][i]Some academy schools are doing well at providing food and drink that complies with many of the national school food standards. Others are doing less well, with children being exposed regularly to foods high in fat, sugar and salt which the standards were specifically designed to reduce or eliminate.[/i][/b]

http://www.childrensfoodtrust.org.uk/research/schoolfoodstandardsresearch/academyschools

My kids today will be choosing from

Chicken korma, rice, mini naan
Cheese and tomato pizza
Jacket potato topped with chuck korma
Fruity flapjack
Strawberry sparkle

Along with veg of the day or side salad & fresh fruit

I like my kids menu wish I could have it

To slightly back up LHS, the pilot report notes that:

no change in the total reported consumption of chips, vegetables or whole pieces of fruit on school days, despite the changes in food eaten at lunch

So the implication is parents were feeding them worse food in the evening as they felt they'd had a healthy lunch. So we can conclude the policy will lead to no positive outcome in food behaviour and in some aspects is letting parent off the hook for providing their kids with quality meals. Genius.

Apology accepted.

I do however await their return to find out what strawberry sparkle is

Education of parents is required, true. However again this will be a costly programme and one not guaranteed to garner results. Are you happy to fund this from taxes with the associated risk that it may not work? After all you do seem very particular on what your taxes are spent on or should we adopt an approach that has a higher chance of success?

You honestly need me to explain to you why Sausage and Chips and Chocolate cake isn't the healthiest of lunches for children?

No, I didn't ask whether or not it was the healthiest lunch, I asked you to explain why it was particularly unhealthy.

Local authorities are required by law to provide healthy, nutritious meals. Without an understanding of the ingredients and methods of preparation used, I don't think you can conclude that this would be a particularly unhealthy meal.

The budget allocated to school catering makes meals based on recipes taken from the Observer Food Monthly an unlikely sight in the school cafeteria, but for many children the school lunch is the only proper meal of the day. This is not a good state of affairs.

Quinoa salad with za'atar and roast seasonal vegetables and grilled sourdough bread is lovely, but in the unfortunate absence of it as a menu option, a well-prepared lunch of sausages with roast potato wedges and a vegetable (main meals always feature at least one vegetable or salad), followed by chocolate sponge pudding, with fresh bread and a drink containing no added sugars constitutes a healthy meal for a young, active schoolchild. To snort at this notion in a derisory manner betrays an ignorance of what nutrition (and specifically the nutritional requirements of a young age group) actually constitutes.

If you don't want your children eating school meals, that's fine - I don't want mine eating school lunch every day either - but please don't assume that what's being provided is not up to regulated nutritional standard because it doesn't scale the same gastronomic peaks as your own kitchen. That's just snobbery mate, and doesn't help anyone.

Education of parents is required,

I realise that he's a man of very few words, but I'm dying to know what LHS feeds his kids. I expect he can tell us in a single sentence...?

mini naan

A mini naan??

😯

Kids these days don't know how lucky they are in my day we could only dream of a mini naan bowl of cold gravel if we were lucky had to lick road clean wit' tongue father would kill us and dance on our graves etc etc...

That's just snobbery mate, and doesn't help anyone.

If that's snobbery, then I am a snob.

My kids will not be eating Sausage, Chips and Chocolate cake for lunch.

A typical lunch bag for my kids would have a banana, an apple, some trail mix or nuts, a yogurt and either a small sandwich or pot of salad.

then I am a snob.

You really didn't have to point that out, you know! 😀

So the implication is parents were feeding them worse food in the evening as they felt they'd had a healthy lunch. So we can conclude the policy will lead to no positive outcome in food behaviour

No, the pilot report notes that:

[i]Children in the universal pilot areas were less likely to report eating crisps at least once a day than children in the comparison areas. This was seen to suggest that the reduction in crisp consumption at lunchtime did not lead children to eat crisps in the afternoon and/or evening instead. [/i]

Which sounds like a positive outcome to me. As does this :

[i]The universal pilot was seen to have had a significant positive impact on attainment for primary school pupils at Key Stages 1 and 2, with pupils in the universal pilot areas making between four and eight weeks’ more progress than similar pupils in comparison areas. [/i]

You don't have kids LHS, do you?

If that's snobbery, then I am a snob.

My kids will not be eating Sausage, Chips and Chocolate cake for lunch.

What? Ever? I bet your kids will really, really thank you for that.

Anyway... you seem bizarrely reticent with furnish us with what your own children's culinary utopia consists of

Are you going to tell us then? I thought a self-confessed snob as yourself would be itching to show off their superior (organic? Free-range?) menu choices.

GO on..... dazzle us thick chip eaters....... you know you want too.....

EDIT: On second thoughts, I agree with Yunki. You've definitely not got kids. If you had there is no way on this earth you could make a statement like that 😆

I can't see how Nick Clegg can possibly claim this was his idea when the thinking behind it, and associated pilots in deprived parts of London actually came from a review that Gove sponsored and which was delivered by Henry Dimbleby (yes, it is the same family...) and his co-founder of Leon, John Vincent.

Gove signed off all of the recommendations put forward by the review months ago including "free school meals" for all so Nick Clegg is at best disingenuous at best to claim this is his work.

A typical lunch bag for my kids would have a banana, an apple, some trail mix or nuts, a yogurt and either a small sandwich or pot of salad.

Assuming they receive a proper breakfast and a proper evening meal, then this is an excellent lunch.

The issue originally under discussion here however is that there are a large number of very young schoolchildren in the UK who routinely receive neither a proper breakfast nor a proper evening meal, so your lunch would be nutritionally inadequate for them, and its those children that this proposal is seeking to help the most.

Education of parents is required,

In camps presumably comrade?

Yes if you must... 🙄

Some people choose to eat unhealthily for a number of reasons, their choice. Others have been brought up that way and know no different. Educating parents about the importance of providing your children with a balanced diet can only be a good thing surely? Not quite sure how this equates with a left wing politics.

I didn't say ever did I, but in your hysteric reply you selectively like to miss things and make things up.

My kids rarely eat sausages, that is one food I try to ensure they don't have and yes, they will thank me for it. Chocolate cake is fair game, but not as a healthy lunch every day!

A typical lunch bag for my kids would have a banana, an apple, some trail mix or nuts, a yogurt and either a small sandwich or pot of salad.

Lots of sugar in there. Not really very healthy.

Some people choose to eat unhealthily for a number of reasons, their choice. Others have been brought up that way and know no different. Educating parents about the importance of providing your children with a balanced diet can only be a good thing surely? Not quite sure how this equates with a left wing politics.

You can't educated adults can you. Without sending them to camps.

Not quite sure how this equates with a left wing politics.

Of course it does. You hardcore commies are all the same. I bet you agree with fluoride in drinking water, to make "your teeth strong". Yeah right.

You can't educated adults can you. Without sending them to camps.

😆

You can't educated adults can you. Without sending them to camps.

😆

EDIT : Snap !

So would you stop them going to parties where typical fare or a trip to a fast food eaterie was on the cards?

Their lunch looks very healthy, a little on the light side depending on their age, but no doubt they are thriving so well done. Still interested in the party food question and not as a pop at you or your parenting. Mine have / do get quite a few party invites over the course of the year and I'm pretty sure that trail mix has never been part of the offering. 🙂

#edit

You can't educated adults can you. Without sending them to camps.

OK, sorry I didn't spot the trolling earlier. Hands up, you got me hook, line and sinker. 😳

Coyote - Member

Some people choose to eat unhealthily for a number of reasons, their choice. Others have been brought up that way and know no different. Educating parents about the importance of providing your children with a balanced diet can only be a good thing surely?

+1

Why no sausages then LHS? Why is the humble banger on the [b]verbotten[/b] list then?

and yes, they will thank me for it.

Yes.... good luck with that! 😆

My kids rarely eat sausages, that is one food I try to ensure they don't have

This thread has descended into comedic farce, with one or two contributors making themselves look like complete dicks. I'd say it's done.

BUT

The serious bit. I simply can't ignore the issue of overprivileged kids gorged on mini naans. I can't.

See; your mini naans: that's your immigrants that is. Corrupting our good honest hardworking stodgy, bland and utterly unappetising British School Meals , with their exciting, nutritious and flavoursome foodstuffs.

Undermining traditional British values and Democracy. Thin end of the wedge. Rivers of blood.

BAN THE MINI NAAN! BAN IT NOW!

Why on earth are they not allowed to eat sausages?

Because they are unhealthy, they are a processed food coming from the left over bits from the animal, usually containing a high level of fat.

Why on earth are they not allowed to eat sausages?

It could be a religious thing.

EDIT : No, it's because they are leftover bits of animals.

Binners, you seem to be very angry and rude. Not sure why.

Because they are unhealthy, they are a processed food coming from the left over bits from the animal, usually containing a high level of fat.

All that sugar you're giving them is worse for you than a little bit of fat. It's not the 1970s any more - thought most people knew this by now?

Do you think bread isn't a processed food btw?

I like this thread

I'm hungry

left over bits from the animal

Ensuring that all the animal is used with little waste, surely a good thing? Even those Mediterranean types with their ridiculously healthy diets eat chorizo and salami.

Why on earth are they not allowed to eat sausages?

Must be the shape. Penis envy is a terrible affliction.
What about cocktail sausages ?