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And I don’t want choices
That, in itself, is a choice.
I choose choice
I can get 600 miles on a tank with my 1.2l engine and achieve over 50mpg. The car is shaped like a box too. When EV’s can achieve the same I’ll consider switching. The tax is not a factor for me. Still cheaper to keep my current car.
Is it really cheaper when you factor in servicing? Maybe. Depends on how many miles you drive I think. As I mentioned above I've run the numbers a few times for my old(ish) ICE car and I think I'm now convinced than a second hand EV would save me a bit of cash and be better for the environment, although I've still not done it.
Your comment highlights a big hurdle for EVs though. They are not the same as ICE cars. Better in some ways and worse in others, but not the same. The problem is that ICE drivers (me included) keep pointing to some advantage of ICE and saying "I'll get an EV when it can do this".
I can get 600 miles on a tank with my 1.2l engine and achieve over 50mpg.
How many times would you stop in that 600 miles?
I can do 200 miles, stop for less than 20 minutes, do another 200 miles, stop for another 20 minutes and then do 200 miles again . For the equivalent of about 130-ish MPG.
Unless you’re continually driving more than 200 miles at a time without taking a break , eating or peeing?
I can get 600 miles on a tank with my 1.2l engine and achieve over 50mpg
So can I.
But I rarely do more than 300 miles - maybe every other month a journey of 240-270miles to see family.
I can get 600 miles on a tank with my 1.2l engine and achieve over 50mpg. The car is shaped like a box too. When EV’s can achieve the same I’ll consider switching
50mpg is about 13p a mile, my car costs me about 1.8p a mile, so I wouldn't be too proud of that. As for the 600 miles - meh. You can stop and recharge EVs. People who've never done it seem to think it's some kind of horrible ordeal.
As for insurance - that's a cluster-**** currently, but it will clearly have to change. However the renewal for my EV has gone down from £800 to £500 this year.
Yes. To buy the EV version of my car would cost over £30k new. Maybe 25k a few years old. And they only have a range of 250 miles. I could sell my car for about 14k. So I'd need to find 21k just to switch without finance. 21k is many many years of ICE servicing. Lus, even though a seevice on an EV might be slightly cheaper we can expect the costs to go up when the majority of cars are EV. Then the cost of replacement batteries where there will inevitably be a shortage.
EVs are city cars for city lifestyles and city incomes.
Dealers will find creative ways of fleecing you for EV servicing - that's their bread and butter money spinner, not car sales.
So I’d need to find 21k just to switch without finance
Your maths is off - £25k minus £14k is £11k. And you'd be upgrading to a newer car which would cost money even if you went with an ICE, so you're employing creative accounting here. But anyway - no-one's telling you to sell your ICE now. We're saying next time you need a new car, get an EV.
Dealers will find creative ways of fleecing you for EV servicing
Major service from the dealer is £140 for me, £75 for a minor. And nothing actually gets done on the minor, so you could absoutely ignore it - you are only paying for a stamp. The only expensive one is £500 for a complex coolant flush every 60k I think.
Ah yes high capex ignored in quest of low opex.
My car was £12k, not an outrageous sum for a 4 year old car is it? We borrowed the money, so it comes under opex, and it was much cheaper than an equivalent spec/quality ICE.
I can get 600 miles on a tank with my 1.2l engine and achieve over 50mpg. The car is shaped like a box too. When EV’s can achieve the same I’ll consider switching. The tax is not a factor for me. Still cheaper to keep my current car.
Fantastic - jog on, then.
Major service from the dealer is £140 for me, £75 for a minor.
What about all the other stuff attached to the car? Do those things not break?
I should perhaps amend my sentence to...
[i]Dealers will find creative ways of fleecing you for EV maintenance[/i]
..they are like bookies - they won't lose out.
I can get 600 miles on a tank with my 1.2l engine and achieve over 50mpg. The car is shaped like a box too. When EV’s can achieve the same I’ll consider switching. The tax is not a factor for me. Still cheaper to keep my current car.
No, you can't. 600 miles at 50mpg is 12 gallons, or 54.5 litres. The tank capacity in a Skoda Fabia is 45 litres...
It's fascinating how deep people will dig to support their paranoid conspiracy-theorist led anti-EV bullshit propaganda.
grimepFree Member
EVs are city cars for city lifestyles and city incomes.
Myopic bollocks.
He did say over. He didn't say how far.
My 1.2 petrol does 65mpg
Wait, @mjsmke's car is a Fabia?
You can get a brand new E208 for £18k, or a 2020 Kona EV with 280 miles of range for £12,699. Shit the bed that's a good deal. A few quid more than my car, more range and faster charging. And lower miles. Bastard.
Meanwhile a 2020 Fabia 1.0 TSI with similar miles is £8.5k. So a £4k upgrade. That wouldn't take long to pay back, if you can charge at home that is. The one good (current) argument against EV ownership and they didn't mention it.
Fairly certain he has a Berlingo/partner but flaperon seems to know better.
To buy the EV version of my car would cost over £30k new. Maybe 25k a few years old.
I'd be interested to know what EV has depreciated by such a small amount. Most that I've looked at seem to be nearer to 50% of new price after only a few years and not many miles.
What about all the other stuff attached to the car? Do those things not break?
Yes - but you said servicing. But there's far less stuff to break. Of all the things I've had to pay for over the years, only a couple of them are present on an EV.
I’d be interested to know what EV has depreciated by such a small amount. Most that I’ve looked at seem to be nearer to 50% of new price after only a few years and not many miles.
Yeah, 16% depreciation from new in 3 years is clearly not feasible.
Go look at the price of comparable spec e-rifters Vs new . Of course not ignoring milage. Comparing Cheap 3yo cars with high miles are not comparable to average milage vehicles.
WRT EV repairs, one of the things which is starting to show up for EVs are motor bearing repairs. When the bearings start to go, it affects regen more than acceleration performance (don't ask me why, I don't know), and whilst they're a fairly cheap part, they're difficult to access and the motor, once repaired, must be VERY carefully aligned during re-installation. The guys I spoke to at BMW said they have a special bench rig to do this for the I series. It turns £70-100 of parts into a £1500 job. I'm not sure many bearings on an ICE have the same type of loads - conrod bearings might be the closest thing, but the forces are smaller.
EVs are city cars for city lifestyles and city incomes.
Probably the exact opposite long term. Home charging for most city dwellers just isn't an option. Where as if you're lucky enough to live out in the sticks, home charging, and even home energy generation, is more likely to be a realistic proposition. You're more likely to need a car as well.
this is an EV charging thread – move on.
Wrong thread
Probably the exact opposite long term. Home charging for most city dwellers just isn’t an option. Where as if you’re lucky enough to live out in the sticks, home charging, and even home energy generation, is more likely to be a realistic proposition. You’re more likely to need a car as well.
This - there is no way I could have a EV. simply not feasible due to lack of charging options. I live in an attic flat with no designated parking. There is a public paid for charging station near me - but its 4 hours max so the car would need to be moved on and off it. Parking is at a premium anyway with all parking being paid for.
City car club type schemes for cities is the answer IMO - with small light cars. Our local scheme is getting some electric vehicles
While I am against EVs as a distraction from the real action needed as vehicles they work well.
Wrong thread
Yeah - I noticed later, but the sentiment is still the same.
"Your maths is off – £25k minus £14k is £11k. And you’d be upgrading to a newer car which would cost money even if you went with an ICE, so you’re employing creative accounting here. But anyway – no-one’s telling you to sell your ICE now. We’re saying next time you need a new car, get an EV."
Ah maths error! My bad. Still, 11k is a lot of money for a car with less than half the range of my current one. If i needed to replace my car now it will be another ICE without hesitation. Maybe in the future if/when EV cars are more suitable, i might.
I know there's a lot of arguments about it, but i'm guessing most folk are like me, if they could afford an EV, charging point at home and solar panels they they'd do it tomorrow, i love EVs, they look good, have all the benefits of being functionally better at doing automotive duties, ICE cars are pretty inefficient at what they do, partly through the complexity of modern cars, and partly due to emissions control adding nugatory systems that are designed to fail.
One day i'll get one, but until then i'll have to just suffer using ICE cars, am i jealous others can get them through schemes, tax breaks, etc, not really, as that'll increase sales, which will hopefully reduce costs over the years, hopefully the Chinese cheaper EVs break in as well and start pushing starting prices down!
Why do you need to drive 600 miles without a recharge? Serious question. I'm planning a potential 600 mile trip in my EV now.
11k is a lot of money for a car with less than half the range of my current one.
The Kona I found is only £12.5k all in. But yes - I have a diesel and I have promised myself I won't buy another. So I will keep it until I can afford an EV that can tow to replace it.
TJ you are dead right about the charging - it's the major issue right now. It is being worked on although slowly. But it'll have to change in the future.
Re bearings some of the older Ioniqs (28kWh) have had this. There is a video of someone changing them on a 180k mile car. There are only two, and it's the same skills and tools as a gearbox rebuild but obviously far simpler!
600 miles is 8.5h driving at motorway speeds, 10h anywhere else assuming you're not held up. You're not doing that without a break and to be honest if you aren't you shouldn't.
If I'm driving for work they require 15 minutes break every 2 hours, in my ID4 I can drive pretty much indefinitely on that basis. Even just driving normally it's rare that the charging is the limiting factor in how long we stop on a journey and I certainly need to stop before the car needs a charge.
I just looked at a 650 mile trip in my EV which is really slow charging, just about the slowest out there. It would have taken 9hrs of driving and 2h35 or charging or something like that. I am pretty sure I'd have stopped at least 1.5hrs if I were driving a diesel, just to stop for lunch and coffee. So an hour extra on an all day drive? I can absolutely live with that, and so can you. If I had one of the fastest charging cars I would have spent more time stopped than the car needed.
Go look at the price of comparable spec e-rifters Vs new . Of course not ignoring milage. Comparing Cheap 3yo cars with high miles are not comparable to average milage vehicles.
well e-rifters are pretty rare (6 for sale) but the vauxhall version isn't. 2 years old, 5,000 miles, £17k.
a diesel combo of the same age and milage is, err.. £21k
I wouldn't get one as they're awful EVs, but they're not expensive.
but i’m guessing most folk are like me, if they could afford an EV, charging point at home and solar panels they they’d do it tomorrow
That's one of the issue for me. These tax breaks for EVs are tax breaks for the rich. They aren't big enough to make these cars affordable for all.
The five figure purchase prices that people stating may be a bargain but they are way beyond the reach of many.
That’s one of the issue for me. These tax breaks for EVs are tax breaks for the rich. They aren’t big enough to make these cars affordable for all.The five figure purchase prices that people stating may be a bargain but they are way beyond the reach of many.
I don't really have an issue with that. EVs are fundimentally expensive things, so you can't really target folks without much money as they don't buy new cars at all. What you can do is impact the people who do buy new cars, changing their behavior so the overall fleet in 10 years time is significantly different to how it looks today.
the current VED rates aren't really a tax break for the rich anyway - my £4k 7 seater, a car affordable for the majority, is in the £20 tax band, the £20 saving on a car depreciating £10k a year isn't really relevent
They aren’t big enough to make these cars affordable for all.
Well it's not really the tax situation except the BIK part. The real issue is that there aren't cheap EVs made that are much good. But they are definitely being developed. Once the higher end higher profit market cools down they will start fighting over the small cheap(er) car market. There's a VW iD2 and a Kia EV3 out soon. At first they won't be cheap because they will be after the people with more money, but they will become cheaper.
"Ah maths error! My bad. Still, 11k is a lot of money for a car with less than half the range of my current one. If i needed to replace my car now it will be another ICE without hesitation. Maybe in the future if/when EV cars are more suitable, i might."
If you're regularly doing 400+ miles without a break, I reckon those use cases are marginal enough that your ideal EV may not exist for decades. Faster charging and lighter batteries will. Benchmark WLTP seems to have gone from 200 to 300 to 400 miles over about 5 years. But what's the point of more than that commercially? Charging infrastructure is massively improved for the occasional long hops and most charging is done at home which is far easier than visiting a petrol station a few times a month.
I agree Rich. It makes no sense to stuff cars with 600 miles worth of batteries when most of them are only going to be doing 20 miles at most a day. It's a waste of resources for the battery and a waste of energy carting it about. Just stop for 15 mins in the middle of your journey. Ideally, there'll be enough rapid chargers in enough locations that there'll always be one.
a diesel combo of the same age and milage is, err.. £21k
I mean other than it being a higher spec and a 7 seater i guess its vaguely similar if you a handstand and squint to try and make a point.
With a 174mile published range I can see why there are many more vauxhall e combos are for sale. Bit crap ain't they.
>> That’s one of the issue for me. These tax breaks for EVs are tax breaks for the rich.
All relative, innit? It’s got to be affordable for someone, and there needs to be an incentive for the first owners. If a consultant takes one of these on salary sacrifice as an alternative to going part-time or even retiring early, then there’s a wider benefit.
Let’s not turn this thread into yet another “they earn more than me so they should be taxed until we take home the same”.
grimep
EVs are city cars for city lifestyles and city incomes.
My i3S driven between home on outskirts of medium-sized ish rural town and small-sized rural town for the commute disagrees.
Let’s not turn this thread into yet another “they earn more than me so they should be taxed until we take home the same”.
I’ve didn’t see those threads. Did you imagine them?
Agree with your main point though… tax breaks for new EVs are obviously going to go to people who can afford new cars. Same goes for heat pumps, home energy generation, etc. At first you need to get the new spend going in the right direction via tax breaks for those who can afford the spend… and further down the line, when markets for lower emission products are more established, then use regulations to complete the transition (and that’s when the focus of subsidies should switch to those who can’t afford to replace old with new).
Let’s not turn this thread into yet another “they earn more than me so they should be taxed until we take home the same”.
This thread is about removing a tax breaks only available to the wealthy. It's unlikely to turn into your made up thread.
I've had an EV for almost 10 years - it was an ex demo Leaf which was silly cheap as people didn't want them in 2015!
Done almost 100k in it with no problems except its limited range which I knew about before purchase. No road tax until this year when its being retrospectively altered, I think the first time thats ever happened to an existing vehicle.
Time to chop it in now as its getting a bit shonky mechanically (not electrically) and I suspect it will start costing me money - its not built very well.
I'll almost certainly get a small/medium petrol runabout as you'd have to be rich, a company car driver or an idiot to buy an EV right now - the prices are hilarious, the reliability terrible, the depreciation jawdropping, the infrastructure pitiful and we all know that its just greenwash really as far as the environment is concerned. The only way to drive green is to drive less and to buy fewer cars and run them for as long as possible. Rusty Nissan Prairie's Cayenne is probably 'greener (stupid phrase)' than 75% of the EVs on the road today given the age of the car, its potential lifespan and how many miles he drives it!
That Cayenne is awesome. Buying a new one though would be an odd move.
EVs are city cars for city lifestyles and city incomes.
Good thing 85% of the UK population is urbanised then. And it's not like the other 15% are living in the middle of the Gobi Desert.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/270369/urbanization-in-the-united-kingdom/
Of course there's always someone that claims they need to regularly tow a horsebox full of iron scrap from John O Groats to Lands End twice a week...
Most folk living in cities do not need a car at all or only occasionally. Car clubs are the way forward in cities.
I just read an interesting stat. 19% of Irelands emissions are from fuel combustion engines. I wonder what the make up of this is, cars, HGV, Buses, farm and construction machinery etc. If cars are half this, say 10%, then even if we got half our cars to be EVs it would only lead to a 5% drop in emissions (I know, I know all you pedants will say it's not a 5% drop as we need to build and charge EVs). Makes me think we are goosed unless there are other huge changes elsewhere. It's not just about cars.
you’d have to be rich, a company car driver or an idiot to buy an EV right now – the prices are hilarious, the reliability terrible, the depreciation jawdropping, the infrastructure pitiful
I disagree with all of that. My EV was barely more to buy than an equivalent petrol ar £12k (I think it was actually cheaper than the hybrid version of the same car), it saves me £80 a month on fuel, they are very reliable cars and the depreciation is great for used buyers. Ad for the infrastructure - nothing wrong with rapid charging, I wouldn't hesitate to drive it on a long trip.
Rusty Nissan Prairie’s Cayenne is probably ‘greener (stupid phrase)’ than 75% of the EVs on the road today given the age of the car
Umm it was new once, likewise new EVs now will become old...
My EV was barely more to buy than an equivalent petrol ar £12k
Oh did you buy a different one to the high milage one you were conflicted about and posted the thread about ?
''I’ll almost certainly get a small/medium petrol runabout as you’d have to be rich, a company car driver or an idiot to buy an EV right now – the prices are hilarious, the reliability terrible, the depreciation jawdropping, the infrastructure pitiful and we all know that its just greenwash really as far as the environment is concerned. ''
Looks like I've been lucky with the most reliable car I've ever owned with overall cost of ownership being smaller than anything else comparable as well, and all powered with hydro power . Youtube and the Telegraph have rotted your mind
Its not all powered by hydro power - you can argue its the average mix or as I believe you should its powered by the gas reserve as its increased electricity consumption which mainly comes from gas but there is no way yo9u can argue its all powered by hydro power as hydro is such a small part of the mix
If cars are half this, say 10%, then even if we got half our cars to be EVs it would only lead to a 5% drop in emissions
1) it would only be 5% drop if 100% of the electricity used to power the cars was renewable
2) EVs aren't only about reducing carbon emissions - it's also about air quality and improving efficiency
3) but we're not gonna un-**** ourselves out of this situation by buying more cars.
all powered with hydro power
I'm not taking the bait
I just read an interesting stat. 19% of Irelands emissions are from fuel combustion engines.
I'd imagine there will be a lot of boilers (industrial and domestic) plus power generation contributing to the rest.
Most folk living in cities do not need a car at all or only occasionally.
Fantasy land.
Car clubs are the way forward in cities.
And are these strangers safe to travel with ?
My 2p worth as I've been mentioned upthread - one of the reasons I run older cars is the technology needed to make inherently dirty engines run cleaner from circa 2006 onwards cars causes no end of hassles for a DIY tinkerer (adblue, DPF, EGR etc).
My personal aim was to keep my older cars running long enough that EV's drop down to bangernomics level. Nissan Leafs are at that point now and will join the fleet should one of mine catastrophicly fail.
As a petrolhead and engineer I think an internal combustion engine is such a massively over complex flawed solution when some batteries and motor can achieve a similar result and I look forward to simpler EV ownership. At the very least no more oil changes and having to correctly dispose of cancerous used oil. No more changing spark plugs and hoping you don't cross the threads, no more landfill of used filters etc etc.
The best way to run an EV must be small, light with appropriate race but go all in so that you can charge the thing from your own solar source on the roof of your house with the option to run the house off the car at night....
Overall, a big investment but once its done you must be looking at energy independence, Shirley....
Thinking about this, would it be possible to get an old car battery pack from an EV for home use as energy storage or are there move cost effective ways?
^ EV battery packs can and do have a 2nd life as home storage.
For this reason (and commercial ICE to EV converters ) used batteries are still commanding high values from crashed damaged cars. I've looked into converting a couple of my cars but the cost is still too high.
And are these strangers safe to travel with ?
You obviously have no idea what a car club is. Its short term rentals - ie by the minute. Hundreds of cars scattered around the city that you book online
https://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/public-transport/enterprise-car-club
the majority of journeys in cities are not done by car.
Not sure if it was this thread that mentioned bearings and motor alignment.
This is not rocket science, it's a fact of life of running a motor with a shaft coupling and is as easy as just shimming it and checking the faces align.
I said years ago bearings would be an issue (no maintenance my arse) but it shouldnt be a big deal, no harder than any other bearing change but you can be sure manufacturers will invent stupid tools to keep it in house where possible.
Everything can be DIY'd, it's the software that's going to be the main hurdle. If you replace sensors and such you need to be able to run calibration checks. I can see custom ECUs or ROM chips like you get on consoles being a way to get round this.
you must be looking at energy independence, Shirley….
It's achievable now with money and a great idea, but I don't think it's essential for the value proposition of EVs.
no maintenance my arse
This refers to the regular preventative maintenance, not repairs; but that's still not zero. Cabin filter, brake fluid and reduction gear oil, plus battery/motor coolant on mine.
Bearings do fail obvs but it's a very high mileage part.
In terms of sensor calibration, it's an interesting question. The main thing everyone talks about is cell health and I don't know if those voltage sensors are part of the pack or the car. I'm guessing you'd replace the BMS module as one.
I do wonder if manufacturers are keen on EVs because long term the supply chain must be so much simpler.
You obviously have no idea what a car club is. Its short term rentals – ie by the minute. Hundreds of cars scattered around the city that you book online
I know a chap in Edinburgh who tried to live with those. The number of times he turned up to dangerous vehicles or even on occasion vehicles that just simply weren't there. But most of all. He would turn up and they would be utterly disgusting inside. - talking twice a week usage for broken home family reasons.
He bought a car after 6 months
whats the breakeven ? my father just had solar installed and he said its 10 to 12 years. probably ok if you are retired with no intenion of moving, but a big chunk of cash up front
we went down to a single car with a view of short term renting when we needed a second. its not just not viable in the city we are in. the cost and the faff compeletly outweighs the benefit of being able to take one boy to cubs and the other to swimming lessons (for instance as a use case)
plus looking at larger vehicles for say a weeks camp in devon is ruinously expensive and would make a week in the uk simialr prices to a week in majorca.
I cant see car ownership disappearing any time soon, least for families. Young single professions in cities maybe...
We were lining up to buy a cheap second hand electric car for our city run around and a much larger suv style for weekend and trips. But the cost of everything is just silly at the moment so we are sticking with our 10 year old sportage.
extra tax cost is just another thing that adds to thr reasons not to
Totally the opposite of mine and my friends experiences with the car club trail rat.
Totally the opposite of mine and my friends
Maybe a leith thing. Gentrification. Effects all.
He's out past Davidson's mains.
This refers to the regular preventative maintenance, not repairs
Bearings are a PM part. If you don't keep on top of greasing how do you expect them to last? They're the one part of a motor you can't engineer your way out of and the weakest part.
Just because you don't look at a CV joint or hub bearing until it's buggered doesn't mean you can't maintain them. It's just made more difficult with modern "sealed" throwaway units. Look at a tractor or any industrial machine and you'll see all moving parts have grease ports.
Hmmm - I might be wrong but I don’t think that EV motor or gearbox bearings are typically designed as a maintainable part - they’re fit for life. Easily achievable by specifying the right parts and designing properly. Compared to industrial machines they will have a very easy life.
A bit like gearbox bearing / bushings on an ICE gearbox - they’re not designed to need maintenance but can be replaced if problems arise.
VED raised £7.4 billion in 2022/23. The Office for Budget Responsibility estimates that this figure will increase to £9.4 billion by 2027/28.19 Dec 2023
<h6>Vehicle Excise Duty (VED) - The House of Commons LibraryThe House of Commons Library https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk › research-briefings</h6>
Revenue expenditure and fundingIn 2022/23, local authority road maintenance expenditure was £4.5 billion. Of this, £2.7 billion was spent on structural treatment, £1.3 billion on routine and other treatment and £0.5 billion was spent on highways maintenance policy, planning and strategy.7 Mar 2024
<h6>Potholes and local road maintenance fundingThe House of Commons Library https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk › cbp-9975</h6>
Doesn't quite match the argument that car drivers aren't 'paying their way' and are being subsided on road maintenance by others.
It was always going to happen.. The transition from ICE to electrical would leave a massive hole in government tax income...
As I see it, any government would have to raise tax elsewhere or start taxing EVs a lot to make up the shortfall.
northersouth - thats because the amount spent on roads is only a small fraction of the total costs of motoring:
All the deaths and disabilities caused including the loss of earnings of those people
All the damage to buildings,
The cost of motoring law enforcement
The cost of the diseases of inactivity
The lost value of all the public land used for parking
Etc etc
The true cost of motoring if borne by the motorist would be 2 or 3 times what you pay now
Yep. Note that VED and fuel duty plus the VAT on it are not ring fenced, rathe they just make up part of the overall tax take.
So the hole left by fuel duty and VAT on fuel sale will have to be taken from somewhere else. I doubt that VED or sale related taxes could be raised high enough to make up for it, so the only options are to accept the lower tax take (cut spending), work out a replacement fuel/usage tax (tax transport use electricity or have a mileage based tax) or increase other tax sources - VAT, income tax etc.
Of those options I can only see adding a mileage based tax as being remotely sellable as “fair”, especially with a mixed population of ICE and EVs. So I do think that mileage based taxation will likely be coming our way/ maybe in about 5-7 year time ish?
Doesn’t quite match the argument that car drivers aren’t ‘paying their way’ and are being subsided on road maintenance by others.
Your £4.5bn figure is for local authority roads maintenance ...in England only...excluding London! It doesn't include the roads that are maintained by central government eg National Highways (which, confusingly, is England only) budget was £4.8bn alone in 2022-2023. The figure also doesn't include new road construction spending or any of the other externalities of car usage.
The VED figure on the other hand is for all VED everywhere in the UK.
https://obr.uk/forecasts-in-depth/tax-by-tax-spend-by-spend/vehicle-excise-duty/
All the deaths and disabilities caused including the loss of earnings of those people
All the damage to buildings,
The cost of motoring law enforcement
The cost of the diseases of inactivity
The lost value of all the public land used for parking
Etc etc
The true cost of motoring if borne by the motorist would be 2 or 3 times what you pay now
You peddle this again and again like you’ve worked the numbers. I’m challenging you to provide actual numbers (rather than TJ facts) here otherwise we should dismiss you as a stopped clock.
I know a chap in Edinburgh who tried to live with those. The number of times he turned up to dangerous vehicles or even on occasion vehicles that just simply weren’t there. But most of all. He would turn up and they would be utterly disgusting inside. – talking twice a week usage for broken home family reasons.
They're in many cities round here. I've been involved (on the car side) in two of the current clubs in Goteborg. Cars are cleaned and maintained regularly, most have dedicated club spots, with chargers if they are EV. Flagging a dirty or dangerous car takes 30-60 seconds and in most cases they'll assign you another car within a 3-5 minute walk (or even the next parking space). Or a refund and compensation.
If i lived in the city, i'd be a member.
EVs are city cars for city lifestyles and city incomes.
Hardly, look at actual usage of actual cars in actual cities, the vast majority of people would be better served by not having one anyway. And i live in the middle of nowhere and of my handful of neighbours about a third are on PHEVs and maybe a quarter are on EVs.
And yes, new cars are expensive. No question.
Cost of supplying and maintaining roads in the UK, never mind all the other externalities, is over £11 billion a year.
As an aside: VED after the first year has always been a tiny slice of the total cost of private car ownership. That's why it's been weird to see people lured into buying or selling cars worth thousands of pounds because they can save £50 on the tax disc.