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Drac
Full Member
Theres warnings on everything, arent we allowed to think for ourselves?
Not when it comes to controlled drugs, no.
Bloody woke snowflakes 😜
I will have to respectively disagree eg if you have to travel for work and find it traumatising, then asking for professional help to be able to live your life is perfectly within the remit of the NHS.
An interesting point, and I don’t know where I stand on it personally. However, as an employer who wanted to send a nervous flyer overseas we put them on a course at our expense - had it been suggested drugs were the solution I am sure we would have covered that had it not already been in the scope of the private medical insurance we pay. I wouldn’t have assumed it was NHS remit, and I certainly wouldn’t for your own pleasure either, BUT as an employer we do pay a not insignificant amount of National Insurance each year and so I wonder if some might feel it should include treatment to benefit the employer?
Interesting to see such a quick dismissal of using NHS resources to get help with this (whether pharmaceutical or not), and the suggestion the solution is a private prescription. Presumably that doctor has no access to your medical records so relies entirely on your version of your history which seems somewhat unwise for someone walking in wanting controlled drugs!
I don’t really know why someone would fly on holiday somewhere if they hate flying so much it needs meds - it would be like this pasty white Scotsman going somewhere stupidly hot; not at all relaxing; but there could be a long term argument that the NHS benefits by the patient getting a decent holiday, not becoming a stress head about travelling and doing things that make them a happier person. A waste of an appointment or an investment in reducing future depression costs?
God, back in my mis-spent youth when we coundn't get weed, we would buy tamazipam or 'jelly eggs' as they were known locally... because they were really cheap and a couple of those plus a bottle of cheap cider would mess you up propper style!
I never really got into that side of things as I've seen how messed up people can get from them... god knows where the dealers were getting them from as they were all legit gel capsules as far as I could tell. I can only assume it was GP's over prescribing so people with a 'script could sell them on, on the black market.
This is where we disagree. Fear is inherently subjective. Otherwise Fred Dibnah wouldn’t exist (or for that matter, pilots).
Not really. There are two inate fears that humans have. Fear of falling and fear of loud noises. We are born with those fears although with conditioning they can be controlled(although never eliminated).
There is also the theory that all fears can be boiled down to 5 foundation fears:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/brainsnacks/201203/the-only-5-fears-we-all-share
When it comes to flying then I would say that the loss of autonomy is a large part of the basis. I can think of few situations we voluntarily put ourselves in that can compare to the complete absense of autonomny that comes with being sat in a flying death tube at 30,000 ft.
With most phobias there is a single fear that is fairly easily identifiable. With flying there are so many factors piled on top of each other it's difficult to tell what the actual issue is. Not to mention the difficulty in gradual exposure that is the way most fears can be overcome.
Whatever definition you use, flying is a fundamentally scary experience, both from the perspective of our innate fears and the fear of loss of autonomy.
Rollercoasters and Bungee jumping are also scary but as you say they they are thrilling. Thrilling just means that you have decided to willingly experience a small and controlled amount of fear of falling. You have also decided to give up a small amount of autonomy (but only for a very short period of time). Thrilling is just a dose of scary that you ultimately have control over.
flying is a fundamentally scary experience, both from the perspective of our innate fears and the fear of loss of autonomy.
But there are people on board who've not lost their autonomy; the pilots and a lesser extent the cabin crew. Presumably they're either doing a good job to disguise their "innate fears", or they....just don't find it scary (because otherwise, it would be a stupid career move). Which sort of disproves your theory, no? I genuinely don't find airplanes scary, you could shoot me off the end of the USS Ronald Regan in an F18E Super Hornet and while my heart rate would probs be a million, I wouldn't be scared. I find very large wild animals scary, I find the very dark a bit creepy sometimes, and there's no way I'm getting in water when I can't see the bottom, but planes...dull/exciting/interesting/routine? Yep all those things , Scary? Nope.
sat in a flying death tube at 30,000 ft.
That is a very weird way to think about a thing that's doing all it can to keep you alive at 30,000ft, and in fact so easily and safely does it accomplish this, you can do it in shirt sleeves while reading a book, or watch a film while sipping a martini...
Interesting read, that. Food for thought.
I can think of few situations we voluntarily put ourselves in that can compare to the complete absense of autonomny that comes with being sat in a flying death tube at 30,000 ft.
How about the London Underground? Is that not just a rolling death tube at -300ft?
Nobody is saying you can't be conditioned to ignore your fear. Look at Alex Honnold free soloing El Cap. But even then he found himself overcome by his fear at one point during that climb and just stood on a ledge for half an hour thinking 'WTF am I doing?' You can condition yourself to overcome innate fear but it doesn't disappear.
And also, being in the tube negates the idea that you are high up. For some people. For others it doesn't. They are painfully aware that they are very very high up.
My objection is to people who dismiss fear of flying as 'just a phobia'. A phobia normally has a single identifiable cause that can often be overcome through gradual exposure.
Like I said, I never had any understanding of what fear of flying was until I experienced severe turbulence. Most people who think they've experienced severe turbulence haven't. From your description you mentioned people got knocked over. If it had been severe turbulence anyone not strapped in would be taking a trip to hospital because they would most likely have been knocked unconscious when their head hit the ceiling.
You can also tell because the entire plane is screaming.
After that I was extremely sensitive to every vibration and noise any aircraft I was on made. Took a good couple of years to get over it. It gave me an appreciation of just how real the fear is and how complex it is. It's not a single thing. It's a whole bunch of fears all rolled into one.
And it's definitely not 'just a phobia'.
How about the London Underground? Is that not just a rolling death tube at -300ft?
Yeah, but you are probably on your commute and hoping for death. Surely, that must take the edge off?
And you live in London so you're desensitised to everything.
Poly
If work want to drug you with a harmful drug to do your work there are a lot more issues than should it be an NHS or private prescription
And it’s definitely not ‘just a phobia’.
You keep using the word "just." I think that's unfair. It's not "just" a phobia, it is a phobia.
From the NHS, emphasis mine:
"A phobia is an overwhelming and debilitating fear of an object, place, situation, feeling or animal. Phobias are more pronounced than fears. They develop when a person has an exaggerated or unrealistic sense of danger about a situation or object."
A better use of your word there might be "it's not just a fear, it's a phobia." What happened to you was a terrifying incident which in actuality probably wasn't all that dangerous but took you years to get over - that's the very definition of a phobia.
Are all mental conditions now prescribed a self help course or are drugs available ?
God, back in my mis-spent youth when we coundn’t get weed, we would buy tamazipam or ‘jelly eggs’ as they were known locally… because they were really cheap and a couple of those plus a bottle of cheap cider would mess you up propper style!
I never really got into that side of things as I’ve seen how messed up people can get from them… god knows where the dealers were getting them from as they were all legit gel capsules as far as I could tell. I can only assume it was GP’s over prescribing so people with a ‘script could sell them on, on the black market.
30 years ago I worked in a lab and we used diazepam for some of our work. It wasn't controlled, we just used what we needed. I can imagine that plenty could have gone missing before anyone in charge noticed. I remember a colleague would occasionally pour some into his lunchtime Lucozade and be quite chilled for the rest of the day. He suffered from anxiety in lots of social situations, like when we went to a posh do to meet the celebrity family who funded our unit. My mate necked some Luco-diazepam, had a couple of glasses of bubbles at the do and then we made our excuses and headed to Soho for more refreshment. (At the Intrepid Fox, iirc) A short while later I found myself physically steering him through the West End until his disapproving girlfriend managed to meet us and take him home. On another occasion he woke up lying along the floor of a tube train with no idea of where he was.
A better use of your word there might be “it’s not just a fear, it’s a phobia.” What happened to you was a terrifying incident which in actuality probably wasn’t all that dangerous but took you years to get over – that’s the very definition of a phobia.
Yeah, could just be a question of language.
I guess strictly speaking people who are too scared to go bungee jumping have a phobia. I just find it strange to refer to it as being a phobia because having a fear of bungee jumping seems entirely rational (even though it is safe) and I always think of phobias as being entirely irrational.
Are all mental conditions now prescribed a self help course or are drugs available ?
There's more and more evidence for the limited effectiveness of medication for most mild problems. Benzodiazepines have a very limited role indeed due to their harmfulness and likelihood to cause dependence.
The airline course isn't self help by the way.
ZK – you should know by now that if you ask a mildly controversial question on here, you will eventually be answered by a suitably qualified and experienced professional and flamed when you dismiss them as you only really wanted your opinion justified because we're quite sick of experts thank you very much. It’s STW is it not?
FTFY
I always think of phobias as being entirely irrational.
Before this thread I would have said the same. But having read some stuff here and elsewhere I'm thinking that "irrational" is the wrong word too. Phobia is more to do with severity, a phobia is debilitating. Not wanting to go bungee jumping because you're scared of heights would seem perfectly rational, yes; not wanting to go to the pub because they've set up a bungee jump in the car park, not so much.
(I'm increasingly thinking that we've picked a poor example in bungee jumping.)
As an aside: there is a theory that adrenaline seeking is genetic, I saw a programme on TV discussing it ages ago. IIRC there's a "long" and a "short" version of a particular gene, which type you have will dictate whether you actively seek out things like rollercoasters or avoid them at all costs.
Phobia is more to do with severity, a phobia is debilitating.
You might have something there.
The only issue I have with fear of flying being classed as a phobia is that it's not really clear what the mechanism that causes the fear is. Is it a fear of heights (or falling), claustrophobia, loss of autonomy, loud noises, or a combination of all that plus more.
I think with a phobia the cause of the fear is clear but with flying I'm really not sure if that's the case.
I can think of few situations we voluntarily put ourselves in that can compare to the complete absense of autonomny that comes with being sat in a flying death tube at 30,000 ft.
how about the illusion of autonomy we convince ourselves of driving in a car to the airport...
I know which one is significantly riskier.
I'd blame a whole bunch of things that surround flying that add up to make the whole experience hateful. The time management aspect (how am I getting to the airport, will I be able to park my car, will I get to the gate on time), to the dehumanising and time wasteful procedures like securities and passport control, to the complexities that are unfamiliar. It's got both high anxiety and high boredom baked in. And at the end of all that stress, get on a thing that might be the cause of your death. I totally get why folks hate flying to the point of phobia.
Apologies if I’ve missed this context but are these flights to Mustique for work or family or holiday reasons?
I also find flying utterly hateful, not to mention the environmental aspects, so for those reasons I’m out.
Are all mental conditions now prescribed a self help course or are drugs available ?
Well all is a bit too blanket, but yes alternatives are offered first.
I know the GPs in my area, I didn’t get meds straight away despite had to show that I tried other things and definitely needed them. That is for depression, anxiety and PTSD.
Medication should always be the last resort and diazepam is a nasty addictive drug with unpredictable effects and side effects.
If yoy do get addicted withdrawal can kill. Its one of the hardest things to withdraw from. Much worse than heroin
Taking it so you can get on a plane is misuse of it.
I would like to see it banned except for very limited circumstances its that harmful
I will have to respectively disagree eg if you have to travel for work and find it traumatising, then asking for professional help to be able to live your life is perfectly within the remit of the NHS.
Two weeks sitting on a beach on the other side of the world is not within that remit, surely.
remember hitting some severe turbulence in the middle of a flight to the Middle East once
On my way back to the UK from Australia the turbulence was so bad that some people ended up in the next row of seats. I found it hilarious, but then I had eaten several of Martha's cookies just before boarding (and I never see the point in taking my belt off).
Flying is shite. But not due to fear of death, but the whole experience of airports, waiting, searches, etc.
Just found 5 in a drawer.
I was never a fan of Enid Blyton's later works.
I’d blame a whole bunch of things that surround flying that add up to make the whole experience hateful.
I'm travelling to Reading tomorrow (which, I know, should be sufficient to instil fear). I'm driving early morning to the park 'n' ride to get the Metro to get the train. Any one of those legs goes wrong and I'm several hundred quid out of pocket that I can't afford to lose. It should be trivial but frankly I'd be bricking it less if I was getting on a plane.
at the end of all that stress, get on a thing that might be the cause of your death
You could say the same of a taxi. Or crossing the road. Or going to bed.
Poly
If work want to drug you with a harmful drug to do your work there are a lot more issues than should it be an NHS or private prescription
TJ - I think if your work were insisting you take a drug your sentiment would be true, but if your work are able to support you to do your job then it’s not an unreasonable thing for them to support assuming an actual clinician had actually recommended it (and not simply because they were being paid to give out whatever smarties the customer wanted). You could argue send someone else; sometimes the concerned party really is the best person. As I said we sent someone on a course rather than buy them pills, and that not only helped them do that trip for us but has enabled them to travel for pleasure now - they don’t enjoy it but just asked them if they could go to the US made them turn grey before!
God, back in my mis-spent youth when we coundn’t get weed, we would buy tamazipam or ‘jelly eggs’ as they were known locally… because they were really cheap and a couple of those plus a bottle of cheap cider would mess you up propper style!
They appeared at school for a while ... I was pretty cautious of prescription drugs but did take one. I didn't notice any effect.
On the other hand, there was an older lad who was the european schoolboy javelin champion. He got into trouble one night after necking them with booze, taking on the bouncers at a party and only being settled once multiple police vans arrived. He ended up doing time for another incident... then I think he became a social worker.
Weirdly enough I think he had koumpounophobia.